Working Online

[manarak]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

I had posted my knowledge about your questions here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/738099-can-you-register-an-online-business-in-thialnd/#entry8043270

[Chivas]

This has been regugitated umpteen times - Mods please close this thread.

Others are interested ok not up to you to make demands.

[larsjohnsson]

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

Possibly. But one doesn't need to be earning millions to make a contribution. Really, one doesn't need to be doing much more than the average tourist does. While very few people are making a *lot* of money from online activity, a fair amount are making a *reasonably* healthy living. I see no reason why that should not be considered a contribution. I understand that it may not be large in terms of the overall economic picture, but I would imagine that many expats *in reality* are doing it, and this adds up, just as the small spendings of a great many tourists....adds up.

No you don't need to earn millions to make a contribution. But you need a wp and paying tax. A few noodle soups isn't enough

[larsjohnsson]

I'm referring to earning an income from an investment or online business model that was established outside of Thailand, and doesn't require you to keep working while living here. Keeping in mind the current rules were written before the internet was around. For all I know moving money around using internet banking could be considered working.

I agree Jasun. I think this is why it is out of date. Imagine being deported for checking your bank account in another country, or for moving money from one account to another. I mean, does anyone *really* take the view that isn't ridiculous?

Those ridiculous statements always come up. Checking your bank account or moving money from one account to another is not working. And no one gets deported for doing that.

Things like that has nothing to do with having an online work

[LivinLOS]

As an aside, has nobody thought to approach a Thai online company and work with them to come up with a solution? Create job descriptions to help the company and be able to legally stay in Thailand?

http://iglu.in.th/work/

[jpinx]

As an aside, has nobody thought to approach a Thai online company and work with them to come up with a solution? Create job descriptions to help the company and be able to legally stay in Thailand?

http://iglu.in.th/work/

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Interesting but does not appear to cater for what I suspect are the majority of home-workers who don't want or need to be in a "proper" office.

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[LivinLOS]

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Interesting but does not appear to cater for what I suspect are the majority of home-workers who don't want or need to be in a "proper" office.

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In discussions with the boss I got the impression they were willing to set it up to work from a location not theirs if your still willing to pay the fees. The provision of a workspace and fast net etc is sort of a perk for your payments.

[jpinx]

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Interesting but does not appear to cater for what I suspect are the majority of home-workers who don't want or need to be in a "proper" office.

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In discussions with the boss I got the impression they were willing to set it up to work from a location not theirs if your still willing to pay the fees. The provision of a workspace and fast net etc is sort of a perk for your payments.

Fairy 'nuff -- though I suspect that the fees would put the average home-worker off since he does not use any facilities other than the invoicing paper trail. Do you happen to know what the uptake is, or how long this has been going?

[JLCrab]

It can be also done without the hosting company becoming your former client becoming their client and keeping a percentage of the billings. Deciding who owns what if any app or something similar product should take off would maybe keep lots of lawyers busy.

Edited August 18, 2014 by JLCrab

[Jaakko]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

Totally agree with this. Several posters here seem want silence any kind of conversation if's brinngs up any negavite things about Thailand. There's plenty of good and plenty of bad things in Thailand, but seems like only the good ones should be talked about. Talk about the proplems Thailand has then they saay you are "thaibashing"

Silence has never solved any problems. Talking and voicing your concerns are pretty much the only thing a little person can do chance things.

[DrTuner]

Do you happen to know what the uptake is, or how long this has been going?

Seems to be pretty new: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745685-are-you-an-it-worker-freelancer-who-wants-to-work-legally-in-thailand/

I'm not sure how the authorities will view the thing. Some issues might pop up if the majority of "workers" are actually freelancers sitting at various places in Thailand. AFAIK there needs to be an address in the WP.

[manarak]

Do you happen to know what the uptake is, or how long this has been going?

Seems to be pretty new: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745685-are-you-an-it-worker-freelancer-who-wants-to-work-legally-in-thailand/

I'm not sure how the authorities will view the thing. Some issues might pop up if the majority of "workers" are actually freelancers sitting at various places in Thailand. AFAIK there needs to be an address in the WP.

yes... but I don't think anyone can get in trouble for *not being* at the address, only for working at another location that is not indicated in the work permit.

Companies have to be able to allow people to work from home, and AFAIK, no search warrants for private rooms are granted just to check if someone is working from home on his computer.

[jspill]

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

My hypothesis is they are aware of some expats having online income and don't particularly care (nowhere near as much as certain posters here seem to) as long as the income is generated offshore and has no influence on Thai citizens, but can't clarify it in law as a 'freelance work permit' would be too laborious to define, and ripe for abuse by undesirables.

After all how could one prove that an adsense blog belongs to them, and they're not in fact dealing crack on soi 3?

They appreciate the financial contribution of an author on the beach but stick to a less flexible visa system for convenience and if necessary make judgements on a case-by-case basis.

Just my opinion, but its backed up by reports of people being told 'no problem for you' when they explained to immigration that they 'sell stuff online' and have no thai customers. Also by the fact that Thai police aren't tracing IPs to raid the studio apartments of digital nomads.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jspill

[ldnguy]

A couple of years ago I vague remember someone posting about a meeting with someone from immigration (I think it was Chiang Mai) and this question was asked. I seem to remember the answer being that it was a bit of a grey area and maybe technically not allowed. But immigration didn't really care as it didn't harm the Thai economy or take anyone's job. The point of the law is to stop people coming here and getting regular jobs or setting up businesses that compete with Thai people. As far as I remember, Immigration said they just aren't interested in people doing things like writing books for sale in other countries, as it's not taking a job from a Thai person and not competing with them. So technically not allowed, but i practice it seems to be tolerated.

It's the same in most countries. Lots of grey areas in the law. Not all laws are enforced anyway. Many are out of date and ignored. So doing web design and targetting Thai companies would definitely not be allowed, but doing web design for US companies would probably be ok.

There are no right or wrong answers. Just use a little common sense. Life isn't black and white.

[draftvader]

A couple of years ago I vague remember someone posting about a meeting with someone from immigration (I think it was Chiang Mai) and this question was asked. I seem to remember the answer being that it was a bit of a grey area and maybe technically not allowed. But immigration didn't really care as it didn't harm the Thai economy or take anyone's job. The point of the law is to stop people coming here and getting regular jobs or setting up businesses that compete with Thai people. As far as I remember, Immigration said they just aren't interested in people doing things like writing books for sale in other countries, as it's not taking a job from a Thai person and not competing with them. So technically not allowed, but i practice it seems to be tolerated.

It's the same in most countries. Lots of grey areas in the law. Not all laws are enforced anyway. Many are out of date and ignored. So doing web design and targetting Thai companies would definitely not be allowed, but doing web design for US companies would probably be ok.

There are no right or wrong answers. Just use a little common sense. Life isn't black and white.

It is probably true that they would turn a blind eye to a number of things that don't affect the state of play in Thailand bar a trickle of extra cash coming in....on most days. Right now isn't most days and it would be prudent advice for anybody in this situation to keep their head down and only look like they are doing whatever it is they said they'd be doing to get their visa (i.e not spending vast quantities of money whilst studying Thai). I would imagine that anybody in this situation blowing their own trumpet is just asking for trouble.

Edited August 18, 2014 by draftvader

[AYJAYDEE]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

Totally agree with this. Several posters here seem want silence any kind of conversation if's brinngs up any negavite things about Thailand. There's plenty of good and plenty of bad things in Thailand, but seems like only the good ones should be talked about. Talk about the proplems Thailand has then they saay you are "thaibashing"

Silence has never solved any problems. Talking and voicing your concerns are pretty much the only thing a little person can do chance things.

The funny thing is that the original post was not in the least bit negative towards Thailand.

But then came AYJAYDEE, who, for some reason, hates people who work online with passion and can't help himself but post nasty stuff in every related thread.

Jealous, maybe?

couldnt care less if someone works online. but guys who disguise questions on the subject as another way to bash thailand and thais are fair game

[nicolas18]

The funny thing is that the original post was not in the least bit negative towards Thailand.

But then came AYJAYDEE, who, for some reason, hates people who work online with passion and can't help himself but post nasty stuff in every related thread.

Jealous, maybe?

To the OP: sorry about that. This forum is unfortunately not the place you want to go to if you want to get a serious answer to a question. Unless that question, of course, revolves around whoremongering.

couldnt care less if someone works online. but guys who disguise questions on the subject as another way to bash thailand and thais are fair game

Well, since you posted tens of replies in all the "Online workers" threads posted over this past month, I would disagree with the first part of your sentence.

As for Thai bashing, I cannot stand it myself. However, I just reread the original post and I cannot see anything even resembling Thai bashing in there. But I'll let the other members be the judge:

Original Post:

Okay, I'm confused.

I understand that any work requires a work permit. But I'd like to reverse the usual sense of the question. I suspect it to be realistic that there are a great many expats living in Thailand earning at least *some* extra money for online activities. For the sake of argument, as it is what I am interested in, let's talk about having ebooks available via Amazon.

Under what "structure" are expats in Thailand doing this? Under what structure can anyone recommend it be done?

Specifically:

1) Are there expats on retirement visas doing this? If so, what is theire real-world risk level for this?

2) Let's say someone is on a work visa for teaching? Obviously this has nothing to do with teaching. But if they were doing this kind of activity in addition, again what is their risk level?

3) Is there a truly legitimate way to do this?

[AYJAYDEE]

The funny thing is that the original post was not in the least bit negative towards Thailand.

But then came AYJAYDEE, who, for some reason, hates people who work online with passion and can't help himself but post nasty stuff in every related thread.

Jealous, maybe?

To the OP: sorry about that. This forum is unfortunately not the place you want to go to if you want to get a serious answer to a question. Unless that question, of course, revolves around whoremongering.

couldnt care less if someone works online. but guys who disguise questions on the subject as another way to bash thailand and thais are fair game

Well, since you posted tens of replies in all the "Online workers" threads posted over this past month, I would disagree with the first part of your sentence.

As for Thai bashing, I cannot stand it myself. However, I just reread the original post and I cannot see anything even resembling Thai bashing in there. But I'll let the other members be the judge:

Original Post:

Okay, I'm confused.

I understand that any work requires a work permit. But I'd like to reverse the usual sense of the question. I suspect it to be realistic that there are a great many expats living in Thailand earning at least *some* extra money for online activities. For the sake of argument, as it is what I am interested in, let's talk about having ebooks available via Amazon.

Under what "structure" are expats in Thailand doing this? Under what structure can anyone recommend it be done?

Specifically:

1) Are there expats on retirement visas doing this? If so, what is theire real-world risk level for this?

2) Let's say someone is on a work visa for teaching? Obviously this has nothing to do with teaching. But if they were doing this kind of activity in addition, again what is their risk level?

3) Is there a truly legitimate way to do this?

tens of thai bashing posts require tens of responses. and the thai bashing occurs later in his thread. he begins by pretending he wants answers to a question and as soon as he gets some he falls right into the stereotypical arguments about how unsophisticated and unwise the thai iimigration officials are. and so I comment.

[Delphis]

Again, thanks to all those who responded usefully on this thread and gave interesting information, including those I didn't see last night. It turned out to be a very productive discussion.

It seems to me that both types of response are correct. Yes, it probably is the letter of the law that online work is not permitted. BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand doing just this, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

[simon43]

...BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand doing just this, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

Yes, I'm sure that is the situation now. But let me change your sentence above just a little:

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand doing back-to-back visa runs, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

or

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand with ED visas and not attending classes, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

or

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of teachers in Thailand without work permits, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

So, as we know from recent events about visas, you may be able to get away with breaking the law this week, but next week could be a completely different matter.

[GarryP]

...BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand doing just this, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

Yes, I'm sure that is the situation now. But let me change your sentence above just a little:

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand doing back-to-back visa runs, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

or

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of expats in Thailand with ED visas and not attending classes, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

or

BUT, yes, it probably is also the case that the authorities know there are thousands of teachers in Thailand without work permits, but don't care, because it doesn't interest them enough.

So, as we know from recent events about visas, you may be able to get away with breaking the law this week, but next week could be a completely different matter.

But surely all those you have listed would be so easy to police, whereas working online (I believe) is not; what with anonymous proxies, etc to hide where you are working from.

[Delphis]

But surely all those you have listed would be so easy to police, whereas working online (I believe) is not; what with anonymous proxies, etc to hide where you are working from.

Yeah, and I think it would really need electronic surveillance to find out in the first place. Unless you were walking around with a sandwich board saying "I work online" I can't see the expense of that kind of time/effort.

[JLCrab]

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

My hypothesis is they are aware of some expats having online income and don't particularly care (nowhere near as much as certain posters here seem to) as long as the income is generated offshore and has no influence on Thai citizens, but can't clarify it in law as a 'freelance work permit' would be too laborious to define, and ripe for abuse by undesirables.

After all how could one prove that an adsense blog belongs to them, and they're not in fact dealing crack on soi 3?

They appreciate the financial contribution of an author on the beach but stick to a less flexible visa system for convenience and if necessary make judgements on a case-by-case basis.

Just my opinion, but its backed up by reports of people being told 'no problem for you' when they explained to immigration that they 'sell stuff online' and have no thai customers. Also by the fact that Thai police aren't tracing IPs to raid the studio apartments of digital nomads.

OK just one thing regarding After all how could one prove that an adsense blog ... They don't have to PROVE anything. They can revoke anyone's permission to stay and they don't have to give a reason; just the discretion of a 'competent' official that one is in violation of immigration and/or labor provisions or regulations.

[Delphis]

A couple of years ago I vague remember someone posting about a meeting with someone from immigration (I think it was Chiang Mai) and this question was asked. I seem to remember the answer being that it was a bit of a grey area and maybe technically not allowed. But immigration didn't really care as it didn't harm the Thai economy or take anyone's job. The point of the law is to stop people coming here and getting regular jobs or setting up businesses that compete with Thai people. As far as I remember, Immigration said they just aren't interested in people doing things like writing books for sale in other countries, as it's not taking a job from a Thai person and not competing with them. So technically not allowed, but i practice it seems to be tolerated.

See that sounds like a real situation to me. I think it's easy to lose sight of the purpose of having these laws in place to begin with, which is removing opportunity from a national citizen.

[Delphis]

Those ridiculous statements always come up. Checking your bank account or moving money from one account to another is not working. And no one gets deported for doing that.

Things like that has nothing to do with having an online work

Actually though, it is, because in switching funds from one bank account to another, say from one of lower interest rate to one of higher interest rate, I am arranging for the earning of money, i.e. "work." And this is doubly the case if I were to shuffle funds around in private investment structures. Of course, no country would stop people it invited there from doing this. The point is: it's not the statement that is ridiculous, it is the law itself if you actually insist on the letter of it.

[JLCrab]

The reason the law is vague IMHO is that -- should the Thai authorities choose to prosecute someone for a violation of the Alien Working Act 2008 - they would not be spending time in Court arguing on whether the alleged activity was 'working' or not. If you would like to assume that in their discretion the authorities would like to consider an individual's moving a bank account an Act violation worthy of prosecution, then up-to-you.

[Delphis]

The reason the law is vague IMHO is that -- should the Thai authorities choose to prosecute someone for a violation of the Alien Working Act 2008 - they would not be spending time in Court arguing on whether the alleged activity was 'working' or not. If you would like to assume that in their discretion the authorities would like to consider an individual's moving a bank account an Act violation worthy of prosecution, then up-to-you.

I think you misunderstand my point. I understand perfectly well that Thailand (or any country) can choose to call whatever it likes work. It can choose to call wearing a yellow hat on a Saturday work, or for that matter it can just choose to turf you out of the country for no reason. But that doesn't make a law well thought out or sensible. And I don't think it is "Thai bashing" to criticize a particular aspect of law, otherwise laws would never be changed.

It remains true that a country has no jurisdiction over economic activity that takes place outside of its own economic system.

[AYJAYDEE]

The reason the law is vague IMHO is that -- should the Thai authorities choose to prosecute someone for a violation of the Alien Working Act 2008 - they would not be spending time in Court arguing on whether the alleged activity was 'working' or not. If you would like to assume that in their discretion the authorities would like to consider an individual's moving a bank account an Act violation worthy of prosecution, then up-to-you.

I think you misunderstand my point. I understand perfectly well that Thailand (or any country) can choose to call whatever it likes work. It can choose to call wearing a yellow hat on a Saturday work, or for that matter it can just choose to turf you out of the country for no reason. But that doesn't make a law well thought out or sensible. And I don't think it is "Thai bashing" to criticize a particular aspect of law, otherwise laws would never be changed.

It remains true that a country has no jurisdiction over economic activity that takes place outside of its own economic system.

lol! tell that to the american government which is presently demanding US citizens living in foreign countries pay capital gains tax on houses sold in those countries.

[jpinx]

Sorry I got involved with this topic, it keeps coming back with the same old stuff......

[Delphis]

lol! tell that to the american government which is presently demanding US citizens living in foreign countries pay capital gains tax on houses sold in those countries.

Yes, but that's really a kind of pressure being exerted on their own citizens with a risk of penalty under the laws of the country for which they hold citizenship (not that this makes it okay, of course). That's a different situation. The jurisdiction is over their own citizens, not over the foreign economic system.