Work Permit needed for a hobby?

[bluesofa]

Now I am aware that you need a work permit even for voluntary work. I knew a guy in northern Thailand who had to get a work permit to help groups of hill-tribes people with their day to day living and learning English. He received no payment.

However, I saw three retired guys in Saraburi who were constructing a statue in a garden as a hobby. When I asked them if they could do that without potentially getting any hassle from the labor department/immigration, they said as it was a hobby that was alright.

Just how strict are the authorities when it comes to interpreting what is regarded as work?

Obviously in this case, they were not taking work away from any Thais, as the statue wouldn't get built by anyone else, due to the very nature of it being a “hobby”.

But, (I'm guessing here), would it be down to the individual offical as to how they interpret the law on working? Or would you need some sort of confirmation that it wasn't work being undertaken?

[PoorSucker]

Building a boat as hobby gives you problem.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/669227-phuket-immigration-cracks-down-on-yachting-marine-industry/

[AYJAYDEE]

with that logic i could say carpentry was my hobby and build a house

[JLCrab]

Regard the above they were not taking work away from any Thais I do not believe there is any aspect of the Thai Alien Labor Act of 2552/2008 that addresses or makes any differentiation as to whether 'work' by an alien is depriving a Thai citizen of a job or other compensation. That is simply a construct of persons who want to make a case as to why they should be allowed to remain in the Kingdom and work without a work-permit.

[simon43]

The issue of the boat-builders in Phuket in the link was deemed to be illegal work because the builder of the boats had apparently previously built boats for his hobby....... and then sold them! So his hobby was deemed a commercial enterprise.

So iif these guys build the statue and then sell it, that seems to break the rules of what one can and cannot do as a foreigner.

I built my own house in Thailand, (well hut actually...). I have no intention to sell it or rent it out. I don't think I have broken the laws re illegal employment.

I didn't build the guest-rooms at my little hotel because they will be rented out for commercial profit.

I am heavily-involved in amateur radio in Thailand. It is a hobby with no commercial motive ==> not illegal for a foreigner (if they have a ham licence).

[useronthenet]

Definition of work; "Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result" Therefore it is fair to say that in most cases you need a work permit, since your time spent is not within the normal parameters of activities which are interpreted as leisurely or daily chores, like shopping for example.

​Those that take the risk of 'working' albeit for free, could be in trouble if they are perceived by the authorities as either a direct threat, or indeed literally interpret the law as they see fit, and thus demand to see a work permit. In my experience, those which have invested a lot in Thailand should determine if such activity is worth the risk, if it meant a possible fine, imprisonment or deportation.

Edited August 18, 2014 by useronthenet

[stevenl]

Building a boat as hobby gives you problem.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/669227-phuket-immigration-cracks-down-on-yachting-marine-industry/

In the end it became clear this was not a hobby but they were building to sell.

So Phuket immigration was correct, and your example is bad.

[Mario2008]

The alien labour act must be read in in the light of what it wants to regulate, that is not someones hobby, repairing the car of your mother in law or building your own house.

[LivinLOS]

And the man given a shake down (and who ended up paying a bribe) for painting his own house ??

[Mario2008]

And the man given a shake down (and who ended up paying a bribe) for painting his own house ??

I heard some ghost stories, but they never did go to court and were convicted by a judge.

[LivinLOS]

And the man given a shake down (and who ended up paying a bribe) for painting his own house ??

I heard some ghost stories, but they never did go to court and were convicted by a judge.

No but he got shook down for 5000b

This case and the case with the boat builders both happened around similar time period.. When this came up in a bar conversation I was told by a local staunch defender of all things thai that 1) the person painting his house was simply questioned, then left alone and as per SteveNL above 2) the boat builders were doing it not for the first time and it was commercial activity.

It was only years later it come up again and I found out he wasnt questioned and left alone, he was questioned, threatened with deportation and (his wife) paid them to leave him alone. Once the first one was shown to be wrong I tried to check and was never able to determine the facts on if they truly were building multiple boats for resale. In fact the gazette who ran the article told me they understood it was the first boat being built by this pair. I have long been curious where the knowledge that this wasnt thier first go around and if it was direct or 'bar stool confirmation' of the situation.

Sadly the news sources on the island almost never follow up to cases to conclusion or update story's like this.

[Mario2008]

That he was given a shakedown and if it was illegal to paint his house are simply two different things.

[bluesofa]

And the man given a shake down (and who ended up paying a bribe) for painting his own house ??

I heard some ghost stories, but they never did go to court and were convicted by a judge.

Hi Mario2008,

I don't quite follow the way you've wriiten that.

Does that mean there was no legal court hearing/trail, but a judge convicted them at some other location, outside of the legal framework?

[ATF]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

[Mario2008]

I say that in such cases I never heard it going to court and the judge convicting that person.

[bluesofa]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

The guys said that "statue building" was their hobby.

[ATF]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

The guys said that "statue building" was their hobby.

They can build statues in their own gardens no problem as long as they don't sell them.

[bluesofa]

I say that in such cases I never heard it going to court and the judge convicting that person.

Thanks for the clarification there.

[LivinLOS]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

The guys said that "statue building" was their hobby.

They can build statues in their own gardens no problem as long as they don't sell them.

For how long ?? What if the statues add value to the garden.. can he sell the garden leaving them ??

Is maintaining your own house not adding value.. Or once you paint your house you can never sell it ??

Sometimes the law is dumb.. This is one of them IMO.

[ATF]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

The guys said that "statue building" was their hobby.

They can build statues in their own gardens no problem as long as they don't sell them.

For how long ?? What if the statues add value to the garden.. can he sell the garden leaving them ??

Is maintaining your own house not adding value.. Or once you paint your house you can never sell it ??

Sometimes the law is dumb.. This is one of them IMO.

If my brother was a girl he'd be my sister. 555 No offence intended.

[Mario2008]

Maintaining your own house migh be adding value, but that is not the issue and irrelevant. Keeping your house clean also ads value to the house and requires the use of energy. .

It is simply not something the alien labour act intends to regulate.

[simon43]

I think the moral of this thread is that any expenditure of energy by a foreigner, whether it be painting his house or scratching his butt, could be deemed by the Immigration Department as 'working'. if said foreigner has 'upset' or seen as a soft touch by his Thai neighbours, local police or immigration guys.

[enuff said]

.

You can't write a regulation to cover every activity known to man. Oh, wait a minute.... UK USA AUS EU already have!

Try to follow the spirit of the law or "nanny-state" Thailand looms.

'nuff said

~

[stevenl]

I think the moral of this thread is that any expenditure of energy by a foreigner, whether it be painting his house or scratching his butt, could be deemed by the Immigration Department as 'working'. if said foreigner has 'upset' or seen as a soft touch by his Thai neighbours, local police or immigration guys.

And a court could have a different view.

[enuff said]

.

I think the moral of this thread is that any expenditure of energy by a foreigner, whether it be painting his house or scratching his butt, could be deemed by the Immigration Department as 'working'. if said foreigner has 'upset' or seen as a soft touch by his Thai neighbours, local police or immigration guys.

Ministry of Labour akshully.

If you settle down here it is highly advised you go out of your way to be a member of the community in good standing. This includes patronizing local businesses and not running to Lotus for everything you buy. Hiring locals to HELP you paint your house. Take part in local activities/ceremonies. Learn to speak Thai. Would it kill you?

Then, if you "upset" somebody, your rep as a good member of the community will sway others to your defense. I have seen it happen.

'nuff said

~

[ukrules]

I've been doing some programming lately, this is a hobby of mine. It's something I used to do professionally some time ago.

I find it interesting to write little programs which can work on all the common systems (Win, Mac, Linux) and they all talk to each other via neworking.

I'm creating something new so it could be deemed research but really I'm just tinkering around on my computers at home at this stage.

The definition of work is ludicrous "Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result"

Going shopping falls under this definition. I often cook my own food, I guess this could also be included.

[JLCrab]

The oft quoted definition of 'working' is from Section 5 of the Thai Alien Working Act. That Act contains 59 other Sections which are quite detailed and specific. That the definition of working in Section 5 being not so specific can be considered to not be an oversight; that may be exactly how they want it.

[LivinLOS]

Then, if you "upset" somebody, your rep as a good member of the community will sway others to your defense. I have seen it happen.

Yet with a little more precision and a little less vagueness.. You wouldnt need to be constantly trying to increase your 'rep' to cover for you in case of trouble.. You could you know, just stick to the rules.

It would appear to me, as an outsider to Thai culture looking in, that these catch all laws are a hangover from a near feudal social system.. where they can be applied at whim by those with power, against those without power, as they see fit. In a society that values the individual and the rights of the individual over the connections and nepotist based systems of the east, they would be challenged and rewritten.

[thhMan]

I feel sorry for you... I actually drive a car to do grocery shopping, so I guess I am taking away a Thais job...

I also wipe my own bum, which could be done by a Thai...

As someone said earlier, building a house maybe a hobby, so I guess there would need to be some black and white ruling by the Thais on that.

The best option would be to give those prepared to live here, the same rights as Thais, so we can all wipe our bums by ourselves, without worrying if the Thai Immigration are watching us indulge in that past time...

"Some truth scattered with sarcasm"

[JLCrab]

Then, if you "upset" somebody, your rep as a good member of the community will sway others to your defense. I have seen it happen.

Yet with a little more precision and a little less vagueness.. You wouldnt need to be constantly trying to increase your 'rep' to cover for you in case of trouble.. You could you know, just stick to the rules.

It would appear to me, as an outsider to Thai culture looking in, that these catch all laws are a hangover from a near feudal social system.. where they can be applied at whim by those with power, against those without power, as they see fit. In a society that values the individual and the rights of the individual over the connections and nepotist based systems of the east, they would be challenged and rewritten.

The Thai Alien Working Act was written and enacted in 2008 so is rather current.