Work Permit needed for a hobby?

[LivinLOS]

Then, if you "upset" somebody, your rep as a good member of the community will sway others to your defense. I have seen it happen.

Yet with a little more precision and a little less vagueness.. You wouldnt need to be constantly trying to increase your 'rep' to cover for you in case of trouble.. You could you know, just stick to the rules.

It would appear to me, as an outsider to Thai culture looking in, that these catch all laws are a hangover from a near feudal social system.. where they can be applied at whim by those with power, against those without power, as they see fit. In a society that values the individual and the rights of the individual over the connections and nepotist based systems of the east, they would be challenged and rewritten.

The Thai Alien Working Act was written and enacted in 2008 so is rather current.

Yet the cultural thinking that goes into these wide ranging laws allowing localized discretion of application (or the payment for non application) is not.

I think you will also find that the definition we are using goes back a LOT further than 08.. The act may have been updated in some way, but the text thats relevant here is not recently written.

[impulse]

Yet with a little more precision and a little less vagueness.. You wouldnt need to be constantly trying to increase your 'rep' to cover for you in case of trouble.. You could you know, just stick to the rules.

It would appear to me, as an outsider to Thai culture looking in, that these catch all laws are a hangover from a near feudal social system.. where they can be applied at whim by those with power, against those without power, as they see fit. In a society that values the individual and the rights of the individual over the connections and nepotist based systems of the east, they would be challenged and rewritten.

The Thai Alien Working Act was written and enacted in 2008 so is rather current.

And that's exactly the point. If I write a law vague enough, I can pick on anybody I want to.

I may not be able to get you deported for defiling my daughter (not without bringing shame on the family, anyway), so I'll get you deported for helping your buddy fix his car...

The vagueness appears deliberate, and one more example of "rule by law" as opposed to "rule of law" (just like the defamation laws).

[ATF]

Yes the law is deliberately vague to leave room for unforseen eventualities.

If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

If you are not getting paid but other people are benefiting on a regular basis. It's voluntary work. The benefit doesn't need to be financial.

[ukrules]

Yet with a little more precision and a little less vagueness.. You wouldnt need to be constantly trying to increase your 'rep' to cover for you in case of trouble.. You could you know, just stick to the rules.

It would appear to me, as an outsider to Thai culture looking in, that these catch all laws are a hangover from a near feudal social system.. where they can be applied at whim by those with power, against those without power, as they see fit. In a society that values the individual and the rights of the individual over the connections and nepotist based systems of the east, they would be challenged and rewritten.

The Thai Alien Working Act was written and enacted in 2008 so is rather current.

And that's exactly the point. If I write a law vague enough, I can pick on anybody I want to.

I may not be able to get you deported for defiling my daughter (not without bringing shame on the family, anyway), so I'll get you deported for helping your buddy fix his car...

The vagueness appears deliberate, and one more example of "rule by law" as opposed to "rule of law" (just like the defamation laws).

Exactly, there's a number of countries who do this. It's done because if they ever want to throw you out they don't need to look far for a reason to do so.

I don't think I'm allowed to talk about the US on this forum as it's not Thai related so I won't mention something very similar which has been going for a long time.

[LivinLOS]

If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

Thats clearly not the case tho..

Share dividends.. Overseas rental property.. royalties.. etc etc etc..

None of those are considered working..

[ATF]

If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

Thats clearly not the case tho..

Share dividends.. Overseas rental property.. royalties.. etc etc etc..

None of those are considered working..

I would say they are counted as taxable income and it's up to you to decide where you declare the tax payable.

If you invest directly in the Thai Stock Market and you manage your own portfolio that would be considered working in Thailand and I believe you can apply for an investment visa but a WP would not be required. If your investments are not self managed then they would be taxable income.

I'm not an expert here so if this applies to you seek professional advice.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well it would be a good idea what your proposed "hobby" is?

The guys said that "statue building" was their hobby.

They can build statues in their own gardens no problem as long as they don't sell them.

I think that's probably the most realistic, real-world interpretation of how this probably works most of the time.

Another example would be someone playing music, or let's say, the guitar.

I'd assume, you're free to sit around your house/home all day and night and practice/play a guitar -- and I doubt the Thai authorities are ever going to give you grief about it.

But if you take that "hobby" and move it into a pub, or even out onto the street corner somewhere, that's probably where the potential for problems begins to arise.

Probably best to keep one's "hobbies" private.

[jspill]

If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

A WP should be required for forum posters who seem to think they have the capacity to define Thai law.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jspill

[GOLDBUGGY]

"Work" is defined as mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. It is also a mental or physical activity as a means of earning an income or employment. A "Work Permit" thus is permission to do "Work". But then, by doing dishes for the wife would you also technically not require a Work Permit if all of that was held true.

The distinction here then is the purpose of work. Many governments have gone through great lengths to distinguish the difference between a Hobby and a Business. Building a Bird House may seem like a Hobby, but if you sell it then it becomes a Business.

The Grey Area for the government is not knowing the purpose of you building a Bird House, or Statue. Even if the intent was to only build one. If someone else liked that Statue after they saw it, and wanted one for themselves, which they agreed to build, then there Statue Building becomes a Business. So now not even the first Statue could be classified as a Hobby as it become a Business Advertisement,

If they stick to one Statue with no intentions of selling it then it should be okay. But it is sort of up to how they see it, as it is a Grey Area.

[GOLDBUGGY]

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If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

A WP should be required for forum posters who seem to think they have the capacity to define Thai law.

Thank You for that Enlightenment Professor.

I didn't notice that the Poster only wanted to hear from Certified Thai Lawyers here, and the likes of you.

Is there anything meaningful you would like to contribute here today? Next week? Next month? Next year?.Ever?

[Simon in Phuket]

Sorry, quoted wrong link and now cant delete!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Simon in Phuket

[Simon in Phuket]

I think the moral of this thread is that any expenditure of energy by a foreigner, whether it be painting his house or scratching his butt, could be deemed by the Immigration Department as 'working'. if said foreigner has 'upset' or seen as a soft touch by his Thai neighbours, local police or immigration guys.

I think this should be the general starting point.

Of interest I recently applied for a work permit (I am a qualified lawyer and wanted to do the right thing) but interestingly was told by the head official sigining off on work permits that as my business is internet based I did not need a work permit if I was working from home.

It was only because I was opening a migration agency in Thailand (in addition to my home internet marketing business) and was opening an office in Phuket and insisted that I needed one that it was granted.

[Wasa]

I looked up the definition of working on Thailaws.com, which appears to provide an interpretation service of the Thailand laws and regulations for foreigners.

It says-

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

I also found another interpretation from another legal service along the same lines, which says-

"Working" means a working by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit.

Is this right, it seems a pretty all encompassing definition.....?

[ATF]

Of interest I recently applied for a work permit (I am a qualified lawyer and wanted to do the right thing) but interestingly was told by the head official sigining off on work permits that as my business is internet based I did not need a work permit if I was working from home.

It was only because I was opening a migration agency in Thailand (in addition to my home internet marketing business) and was opening an office in Phuket and insisted that I needed one that it was granted.

So you registered a Thai Co.?

[jspill]

interestingly was told by the head official signing off on work permits that as my business is internet based I did not need a work permit if I was working from home.

That is interesting, another example of officials having a lenient attitude to internet based work. Thanks for posting.

[ATF]

interestingly was told by the head official signing off on work permits that as my business is internet based I did not need a work permit if I was working from home.

That is interesting, another example of officials having a lenient attitude to internet based work. Thanks for posting.

Yep sure the Immigration Official said it was OK to do it on a Tourist Visa or Visa Exempt Stamp.

[Suradit69]

However, Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office, the government office established to specifically regulate and administer employment law, maintained that the wording does not allow officers to apply the law beyond its intended scope.

“And any foreigners who want to build their own boats on their own time, using their own skills and experience, for their own personal use are not breaking the law. They can do this, but they cannot build a boat so they can sell it later on. That would be profiting from thework,” Ms Yaowapa added.

Not applying the law beyond its intended scope is also what makes it legal for foreigners to assist in public cleanup campaigns and other community projects – as long as the volunteer work is not regular, she added.

“Being a volunteer for an organization requires a work permit. This is because although you might not get money from the volunteer work, you might get food or a place to stay as a reward. So if you do not have a work permit, you are illegal,” MsYaowapa said.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Permission-to-function-in-Phuket/22548

[jspill]

Yep sure the Immigration Official said it was OK to do it on a Tourist Visa or Visa Exempt Stamp.

Nonetheless, more evidence that your frequent bashing of people on internet forums for working online is unwarranted.

[slipperx]

I looked up the definition of working on Thailaws.com, which appears to provide an interpretation service of the Thailand laws and regulations for foreigners.

It says-

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

I also found another interpretation from another legal service along the same lines, which says-

"Working" means a working by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit.

Is this right, it seems a pretty all encompassing definition.....?

They are interesting definitions - working is working essentially - perhaps all foreign parents are all set for deportation for making babies unless of course you achieve it without thinking which might apply to exempt many sexpats.

[ChopperRay]

I am growing plants Bell Peppers and other pepper plants as a hobby. I am 82 years old and do it to keep myself busy.

Not selling them.

Would I nead a work permit?

Thank You

[sean in udon]

I asked a similar question a little while ago.

The consensus was ( and this included a Thai friend phoning immigration in Udon Thani and asking about my specific circumstance) if you are working on YOUR house, YOUR garden, YOUR car, YOUR whatever, then 'no probpem'.

'Your' can also include your wife's/partner's/gf's land, house, etc.

From Phuket Gazette interview:

However, Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office, the government office established to specifically regulate and administer employment law, maintained that the wording does not allow officers to apply the law beyond its intended scope.

“Foreigners cannot perform any work – in the true sense of the word – without a work permit. And they may only perform the work listed in the work permit and only at the place of work listed in the permit.

“But that doesn’t mean they can’t cook their own meals, clean their own houses or tend to their own gardens. Of course they can, but as soon as they are hired or profit by doing any of these things, they are ‘working’,” she said.

“And any foreigners who want to build their own boats on their own time, using their own skills and experience, for their own personal use are not breaking the law. They can do this, but they cannot build a boat so they can sell it later on. That would be profiting from the work,” Ms Yaowapa added.

Not applying the law beyond its intended scope is also what makes it legal for foreigners to assist in public cleanup campaigns and other community projects – as long as the volunteer work is not regular, she added.

“Being a volunteer for an organization requires a work permit. This is because although you might not get money from the volunteer work, you might get food or a place to stay as a reward. So if you do not have a work permit, you are illegal,” Ms Yaowapa said.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Permission-to-function-in-Phuket/22548

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[elgenon]

How can personal "art" be a job Thais can do? But then if you sell it.....Aiyaa!

[JLCrab]

The vague definition of 'working' in the Alien Working Act 2551/2008 to me is simple:

Should the authorities decide to prosecute a case, they don't want to spend time in court arguing over whether the activity in question is working or not really working.

[LivinLOS]

If you are getting paid or receiving any type of financial or tangible reward you are working.Period.

Thats clearly not the case tho..

Share dividends.. Overseas rental property.. royalties.. etc etc etc..

None of those are considered working..

I would say they are counted as taxable income and it's up to you to decide where you declare the tax payable.

If you invest directly in the Thai Stock Market and you manage your own portfolio that would be considered working in Thailand and I believe you can apply for an investment visa but a WP would not be required. If your investments are not self managed then they would be taxable income.

I'm not an expert here so if this applies to you seek professional advice.

No it isnt.

“Stock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit.

For example. If you are a shareholder or an executive of a company, but you do not sign documents related to the daily functions of that company, you do not need a work permit.

However, you must pay income tax if you receive a stock dividend.

The only documentation we are authorized to issue to foreigners working here is a work permit. If you do not work, there is no official documentation that can be issued to you.”

Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:33:29 PM Noppadol Ployudee, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office. - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1237#sthash.UM4Mot7O.dpuf

[ATF]

^^^^^

Appreciate the research I always wondered about the legalities of that. Thanks.

[Liquorice]

Work is one thing. Recreational activities are entirely different if done for enjoyment, amusement or pleasure and are considered to be "fun".

[ScotBkk]

Do u need a WP for being an unpaid Gigolo who is just working for the hell of it !!!

[greenchair]

Can somebody interpret this law please.

Alien work act.

section 4.

This law does not apply to the following.

(5)Anybody involved with education, national sports, or promotion of culture.

[JLCrab]

Can somebody interpret this law please.

Alien work act.

section 4.

This law does not apply to the following.

(5)Anybody involved with education, national sports, or promotion of culture.

It means most likely that you are visiting the Kingdom on behalf of some Government or recognized International NGO.

[LivinLOS]

Work is one thing. Recreational activities are entirely different if done for enjoyment, amusement or pleasure and are considered to be "fun".

However some people do things for recreation.. others do for commercial activity..

Fishing, building, mechanics, carpentry, making music, making websites, making videos, etc etc.. the list goes on..