Retirement Visa - Combination of pension + money in bank account

[david555]

So i am Lucky that i have still 1 entry i can do with my multiple O before 3 october so i can reach the 3 months as money more than needed already 2 months on bank but not 3 ,

thanks to posters who warned already a 1,5 month ago for some changes , however nobody from Jomtien 5 serviced retirees ....; so thanks to Thaivisa and those reporting ones And i shall go for all safety beginning of december

think they make this change to block the "loan system" from visa agents who make publicity for retirement visa with the slogan "when no funds enough , whe can help you obtain retirement visa " now seems they are blocking the genuine finances holders also the money lenders shall not be stopping , only making it more expensive ..... ,

why not just asking fproof from transfer out the home country , as the funds need to come anyway from outside Thailand ?????

Oh , i forgot that should be toooo simpel T.I.T.

Edited August 20, 2014 by david555

[Jingthing]

Sorry, I am not yet convinced yet this is a national policy change regarding seasoning needs for combo applications. For those preparing those who still have time, it would be prudent to go ahead and season as a defensive measure. Be clear if this is an instant change with instant enforcement WITHOUT WARNING ... that is not the first time this has happened in immigration history and those caught in such changes without warning have just got to deal with it, unfair or fair, unfair obviously.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another member from Chiang Mai PM'd me today, as he's planning to go there later this week for a retirement extension relying on the combo method of finance -- and not having his bank funds seasoned. He indicated he was planning to post an update here after his Immigration visit.

So, that should be instructive as to whether this potential policy change has reached outside of Bangkok as yet.

[david555]

TallGuyJohninBKK, on 20 Aug 2014 - 19:27, said:TallGuyJohninBKK, on 20 Aug 2014 - 19:27, said:

Another member from Chiang Mai PM'd me today, as he's planning to go there later this week for a retirement extension relying on the combo method of finance -- and not having his bank funds seasoned. He indicated he was planning to post an update here after his Immigration visit.

So, that should be instructive as to whether this potential policy change has reached outside of Bangkok as yet.

1 month ago 2 members reported similar expieriance already , but they got their extension granted but with a warning next year MUSt be seasoned ...... 1 from Chanmai i believe post #6

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/743309-minor-change-on-1-year-retirement-extension-of-stay/

Edited August 20, 2014 by david555

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for posting that David... I wasn't aware/hadn't seen the prior thread.

But it certainly gives added credence to what I and the other BKK member (Watutsi) reported above in this thread -- that Immigration apparently has changed the rules to require seasoning for combo method bank deposits.

Unfortunately, it seems they've done precious little to inform anyone of the change in policy -- except to apparently have started giving warnings at some point to existing combo method applicants when they go to file.

Based on Watutsi's report above in post #12, at least in Bangkok, it seems as though they've moved out of the warning phase and into the YOU'RE DENIED phase if you try to do a combo method extension with Thai bank funds that are not seasoned for 3 months.

Edited August 20, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[tigermoth]

See Clause 2.22 is for retirement extensions. Appeal info is at beginning of police order.

Effective Aug. 29 Thai Police Order 327/2557

Existing Police order 777-2551 extension of stay rules EN - T&G.pdf

As I read the police order I understand that the deposit of 800,000 baht or combination deposit only has to be in the bank on the 1st year of application. Thereafter not required.

[John1012]

Has the Police order 777-2551 section clause 2.22 been replaced by a later Police order changing the terms of combination of funds and income?

I remember seeing a posting saying that representative from TV was meeting with immigration officials , if this has not happened, can a further query as to the above police order be added to the discussion so that we, the customers, know exactly what the LEGAL position is, not the interpreted position on the day at any particular Imm office..

Is it possible to impose upon the immigration division the duty to follow the written law, not what someone decides on the day. We have to follow the law to the letter to remain legally in Thailand. I am happy to do that. I just require that those that enforce the law follow the written police orders, not the menu of the day. It is the responsibility for the top administration to issue a written amendment to the police order, and until that is done are those that are NOT following written law, not themselves breaking the law, and can they be prosecuted?

Or am I dreaming ?

[ubonjoe]

See Clause 2.22 is for retirement extensions. Appeal info is at beginning of police order.

Effective Aug. 29 Thai Police Order 327/2557

Existing Police order 777-2551 extension of stay rules EN - T&G.pdf

As I read the police order I understand that the deposit of 800,000 baht or combination deposit only has to be in the bank on the 1st year of application. Thereafter not required.

That is not what it says. From clause 2.22.

(4) On the filing date, the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date: or

(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date.

[jippytum]

I have used the pension plus cash method for years Jomtien have never requested that cash be retained for three months

[ubonjoe]

Has the Police order 777-2551 section clause 2.22 been replaced by a later Police order changing the terms of combination of funds and income?

Both are the same there were no changes made to clause 2.22.

The quote of it I just posted is from 327/2557.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just to clarify, the Immigration staff at CW-BKK are maintaining that there HAS been some kind of new police order making the change to 3 months seasoning for the combo method, supposedly that took effect the middle of this month.

However, that provision isn't in the broader police order relating to extensions that was announced previously, and that Joe has posted above. And at least thus far, none of us here have actually seen or been shown the new order that the BKK Immigration staff claim they're acting upon.

[Kabula]

I will be applying for my second retirement extension that is to expire, 1, Nov 2014.

I will be doing the combination and it appears I will be o.k. so far, as the US$ is getting stronger; combined with the fixed 14, July, 2014, deposit + some extra making up the income difference.

However, I was planning to go in and apply about 41 days early as a priority came up, which would be on a Monday, 22, Sept, 2014.

If in fact, the new Bangkok Immigration policy, using the combination method is expected the bank passport to show the amount of the deposit for a three month period prior to my application, (seasoned funds) I will have a problem.

As I understand the problem, Immigration is referring to an August, amended law. The next person that goes into Immigration should demand a copy of that law and post it on this forum. Perhaps a lawyer who already has a copy of the law can post the PDF copy.

I also ask members post comments about any changes to the 45 day early application day rule. No doubt there may be interpretations to that as well.

Every week I see less and less customers in my favorite restaurants in Bangkok during the day and I have to wonder how long they can stay in business with less and less cash flows. With less business and tipping, many of the waitress's smiles have been replaced with a look of concern.

It appears the new visa enforcement, laws and interpretations are a two edge sword. Some good, but a financial Hell for Thai business, retired seniors, and folks who have lived here for many years with property, families and investments.

I imagine a lot of heads are spinning after reading this. I know mine is.

[Kabula]

Just to clarify, the Immigration staff at CW-BKK are maintaining that there HAS been some kind of new police order making the change to 3 months seasoning for the combo method, supposedly that took effect the middle of this month.

However, that provision isn't in the broader police order relating to extensions that was announced previously, and that Joe has posted above. And at least thus far, none of us here have actually seen or been shown the new order that the BKK Immigration staff claim they're acting upon.

I wonder if in fact it presently is a, "rule of law." If the staff at CW-BKK can't produce a copy of the rule of law, it would appear the applicant should file a petition in writing as outlined below. My gut tells me it's not and that is why there is so much confusion.

A competent, Thai Lawyer should investigate this immediately and produce a copy of the up to date, rule of law.

ORDER OF THE ROYAL THAI POLICE BUREAU No. 777/2551 Re: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

If the alien wishes to seek reconsideration of the non-permission order under Paragraph 1 herein, he may submit one petition only in writing, stating the reasons and necessity, to a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector for which a written order accepting such petition must be issued first. The petitioner may submit the application together with supporting documents for consideration simultaneously. The reconsideration must be completed within the period of time stated in Paragraph 1. During the reconsideration, competent officers must stamp permission allowing the alien seven business days from the submission date of the petition for reconsideration to wait for the result.

5. In the case where an alien applicant does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein or in other cases not specified in this Order but a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector is of the opinion that the alien has legitimate reason for staying in the Kingdom of Thailand, the application shall be forwarded to the Commander of the Royal Thai Police Bureau or an authorized competent officer for further consideration of the alien’s application.

Edited August 21, 2014 by ubonjoe
moved reply from quoted text

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There are some actual laws that relate to Immigration.

But the details we're talking about here are more regulations, and are issued as Police Orders by the Thai Immigration Police hierarchy.

The police have some flexibility, under the broad laws, to administer them via the details expressed in police orders. So, in other words, they can pretty much change a lot of detail things as they see fit, whenever they see fit. Subject, presumably, to not running afoul of the NCPO or the Ministry that Immigration is a part of.

I certainly do hope, if it exists, that we can come to see and read the actual language of this supposed new rule that BKK Immigration is claiming is now in effect.

As I understand the problem, Immigration is referring to an August, amended law. The next person that goes into Immigration should demand a copy of that law and post it on this forum. Perhaps a lawyer who already has a copy of the law can post the PDF copy.

I also ask members post comments about any changes to the 45 day early application day rule. No doubt there may be interpretations to that as well.

Every week I see less and less customers in my favorite restaurants in Bangkok during the day and I have to wonder how long they can stay in business with less and less cash flows. With less business and tipping, many of the waitress's smiles have been replaced with a look of concern.

It appears the new visa enforcement, laws and interpretations are a two edge sword. Some good, but a financial Hell for Thai business, retired seniors, and folks who have lived here for many years with property, families and investments.

I imagine a lot of heads are spinning after reading this. I know mine is.

[LookChang]

When i protested and said it had never been like this before i was told the new rule came in last August and it is up to me to know the rules.I'm still in shock but i had began to think it was my fault for not paying more attention to the way the Thais make it up as they go along ,but this thread seems to suggest that this" new rule" is news to a lot of people.I would really like to know if other people using the pension + balance method have been denied because money was not in bank for 3 months.If as immigration say the rule is a year old why isnt everybody already aware of it.I'm still so shocked i don't know if i'm coming or going , literally.

Prior to this thread, I don't recall hearing any news or member reports about BKK Immigration at CW beginning to require 3 month seasoning for combo method bank deposits.

If such a rule really had been adopted and enforced a year ago, it's inconceivable to me that we all wouldn't have heard much more about it before now.

In my thinking, it's either got to be some misunderstanding by one or a few Immigration officers at CW, or, some kind of very recently enforced policy change there.

I already reported this change when I went to CW on July 16th

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/743309-minor-change-on-1-year-retirement-extension-of-stay/#entry8108684

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks LC! David also posted a link to your prior thread above in post #34...

[Suradit69]

FWIW, I was renewing my retirement extension at BKK CW Immigration today, and used the monthly income method with no problem.

However, for the first time, I also brought along a bank income letter that I obtained for a less than 800,000 baht amount because I wanted to make sure the format used by my Thai bank and the paperwork I brought for it was correctly done as far as Immigration was concerned. So really, I was just asking, would this kind of letter and bank passbook photocopy be acceptable for the future, if I ever wanted to use the combo approach?

And to my surprise, the female Immigration supervisor who gave the final signoff on my paperwork, when I asked the question and showed her my bank documents, seemed to be saying that she expected the bank passbook to show the amount of my partial deposit for a three month period prior to my application. The bank passbook I showed her today did not show a 3 month history.

After hearing that, I questioned her again, pointing out that I wasn't talking about doing the solo 800,000 bank deposit only method, but instead, I was asking about the combo method of bank deposit combined with monthly income. But she continued to talk about wanting to see even the partial bank deposit proven for at least 3 months prior to my application.

As noted above, that approach isn't apparently what the actual language of the Police Order for the combo method requires, nor is it the approach that members here have historically reported Bangkok Immigration using.

"when I asked the question and showed her my bank documents, seemed to be saying that she expected the bank passbook to show the amount of my partial deposit for a three month period prior to my application. The bank passbook I showed her today did not show a 3 month history."

If you are going to use a bank manager's letter and copies of your bank book, they expect to see passbook history for the preceding three months. It doesn't mean there needs to be a certain balance for the entire three months if you're using the combination of income and bank balance, but they want to see the transactions for the last three months. The bank manager (at least mine does) will itemize foreign sourced deposits for the last three months and the current balance in his letter.

I used to copy the whole current passbook, which usually covered anywhere from 6 to 12 months of transactions and someone would usually hand bank the pages for activity beyond the last three months.

Now I given them (at Jomtien) the embassy letter and documents to support the amount I am claiming in monthly income which is greater than Baht 65,000 plus passbook page copies for roughly the last three months and manager's letter showing foreign exchange deposits and the balance for three months. Overkill I know, but I figure that answers any questions they might have and shows I am bringing in money from overseas regularly and withdrawing it for local expenses, which pretty much covers the spirit & purpose of the financial requirements for the renewal of the extension of stay.

2. If you are using all or a portion of funds on deposit in a Thai Bank to qualify, you will

need:

a. Original Letter from your Thai Bank certifying your account and showing your balance

(the letter should be dated within the last 7 days – most Expats obtain the day before

applying).

b. Photocopy of your bank passbook Identity page showing name and account number

and all page(s) usually showing the last 3 months activity (it is recommended that you

update your passbook on the same day you get your bank letter so that both balances

will agree)

From Pattaya City Expats club

Edited August 21, 2014 by Suradit69

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If you are going to use a bank manager's letter and copies of your bank book, they expect to see passbook history for the preceding three months. It doesn't mean there needs to be a certain balance for the entire three months if you're using the combination of income and bank balance, but they want to see the transactions for the last three months.

I understand what you're saying above. But that idea doesn't seem to be what the staff at BKK Immigration are saying/requiring. We really need to see the text of this supposed new police order in order to know for certain.

As for the advice below...

2. If you are using all or a portion of funds on deposit in a Thai Bank to qualify, you will

need:

a. Original Letter from your Thai Bank certifying your account and showing your balance

(the letter should be dated within the last 7 days – most Expats obtain the day before

applying).

b. Photocopy of your bank passbook Identity page showing name and account number

and all page(s) usually showing the last 3 months activity (it is recommended that you

update your passbook on the same day you get your bank letter so that both balances

will agree)

On my recent visit to BKK Immigration, I had a Thai bank letter issued the day before my visit, and my passbook was updated the day before also to match -- consistent with the advice you post above.

But, the Immigration supervisor I spoke with about the combo extension method said, instead, I'd either need to have my passbook updated the same day as my Immigration visit or have an ATM slip from the same day as my Immigration visit showing the current balance in my account. She wasn't going to accept the passbook update from the day before, even though that matched the date of my bank letter.

Edited August 21, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[umbanda]

5 years ago for retirement extension, I had 2 different documentation request, one from BK (not following the rules) and one from Chiang Mai, where I ended getting my extension without any absurd request. . If that happened at that time...now we can expect anything. That is not a confi situation, and I think we have to be prepared for the most complicated and absurd requesting from immigration officers now....if we can.

I personally do not like bad surprises.

To be fair with resident foreigners, the new Government needs to do not retroactive the new rules. If foreigners here, some with Thai wives and children, living here honestly for many years, were alllowed to stay legally under old rules, and now will become illegal under new rules, something have to be done about. I may be dreaming, but I hope somebody with influence will look at that with the new Government.

[curtklay]

" shows I am bringing in money from overseas regularly and withdrawing it for local expenses, which pretty much covers the spirit & purpose of the financial requirements for the renewal of the extension of stay."

I am not aware of anything that says you must show you are "bringing in money from overseas regularly..." My bank letter only confirms the balance my passbook shows, and how long it's been there. Never had any questions about where it comes from. My foreign exchange deposits and withdrawals for living expenses are in a separate joint account, and I have never had to show that passbook.

I think we are drifting off the main subject which is; has there been a recent change that requires 3 month seasoning of funds when using the combination method? It appears that there has been or soon will be. As typical of Thailand, some offices have implemented the change although no official notice has been posted. Watutsi's experience is positively shocking, and I would certainly not accept it without further pursuit. It would be reasonable for Immigration to explain the changes, and say "OK for this time, but next year, make sure the funds are seasoned for 3 months". For a ten year veteran of the renewal procedure to simply be given the boot is unacceptable. I hope that he will take his case to a higher authority, and report back to us the results. This is a serious matter, and affects all of us who use the combination method.

For crying out loud, how can we be expected to correctly follow procedures when nobody knows what the hell they are?!

For now, it would certainly be a good idea to season your bank funds for 3 months, if possible. And when you go for renewal, ask for clarification of current regulations.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For crying out loud, how can we be expected to correctly follow procedures when nobody knows what the hell they are?!

For now, it would certainly be a good idea to season your bank funds for 3 months, if possible. And when you go for renewal, ask for clarification of current regulations.

Ditto on that! There was some indication from other members posting in the other thread on this subject that some Immigration folks had previously been issuing advance warnings on this change to some combo applications. But when they started doing that, and how broadly they did, not much clue.

It has been regularly repeated advice handed out here on ThaiVisa for as long as I can remember that no seasoning of bank deposits has been required for combo method extension applications, except for a few oddball outlying Immigration offices that were making up their own rules.

So to suddenly hear from BKK Immigration earlier this week that they're now following a 3 month seasoning policy for combo method bank funds came as quite a surprise!!!

Edited August 21, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[CBR250]

Has there been any change to the Embassy letters where these are able to be used to show an income of 65,000+ thb per month in lieu of money in the bank?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

What kind of change are you thinking?

They still are used and expected by Thai Immigration to prove the 65K in monthly income.

But some time back, Immigration began giving them a longer validity, meaning you can obtain the letter up to 6 months, I believe, before filing your extension application.

[aarn]

The change in policy, regarding seasoning of funds for combination method, is presumably aimed at stopping the 'retirement visa [sic] for ~ 20.000 baht'. I am sure this is the path followed by someone we all know, and is frequently referred to on TV.

I might not have an adept criminal mind, but if I were so inclined, I would knock up a fake embassy statement saying that John Doe's income was 1 baht/year. Then create a bank account for John Doe and deposit 799,999 baht. The next day I would proceed to Immigration, get a 'retirement visa' for John Doe (using combined income method), empty the account, and return the passport in exchange for 20kB from Mr Doe.

The new policy - well, the obvious way to get around it is to fake the three month seasoning period. I am sure better minds than mine have already solved this and next time 'round Mr Doe is gonna have to pay a bit more than 20kB. AA

[david555]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753684-renew-retirement-visa-at-jomtien/#entry8280003 post #6

Seems at jomtien immigration no seasoning needed by this report , could it be that there is more than 1 Thai language...... as different officers reading different police direction rules ........but as even Bangkok office asked seasoning ..... .;looks like Thai Lottery for now

[CBR250]

What kind of change are you thinking?

They still are used and expected by Thai Immigration to prove the 65K in monthly income.

But some time back, Immigration began giving them a longer validity, meaning you can obtain the letter up to 6 months, I believe, before filing your extension application.

Thanks for the response TallGuy.

I guess that they could alter the amount overnight, or perhaps require funds in bank in addition to an income stream. All kinds of unwelcome scenarios spring to mind. I don't want to be jumping at shadows, but the reason I am concerned is that it seems alterations to rules can happen so quickly, and I would hate to turn up with my Embassy letter 3 months from now and be told: "No longer acceptable".

[watutsi]

I have retained a Visa Lawyer and intend to return to CW next week tues/wed to appeal the denial of my extension. The lawyer is totally convinced there has been no change to the rules, and it is just a matter of explaining this to the "overworked" officials I will report back next week hopefully with some hard facts.

[CBR250]

Good luck Watutsi!!

[curtklay]

As far as the 6 month validity of the US embassy letter: I presented my 5 month old letter at my last renewal in June. I was prepared for an argument, and had a copy of the new policy in Thai ready to show them, but not a word was said. It was accepted with my bank letter, and my extension was issued with no problem. Again, it is worth mentioning that individual offices may march to their own drummer. The 6 month policy is available here, and would be a good idea to print it and take it with you when doing your renewal.

PCEC-NOTICE-THAI-IMMIGRATION-NEWS-JUNE-6.pdf 277.79KB 400 downloads

BTW, the TM-7 form now needs to be on 2 sided paper. I had mine on 2 pages with picture attached as I have always done, but this time I had to fill out a new 2 sided form in the office, and peel my picture off the old form. I found it funny that their sample TM-7 on display was still on 2 pages, but I kept my mouth shut.

[ubonjoe]

It has always been a requirement that it be printed 2 sided. From immigration form download page.

"Note: In case of any 2-pages form, please print out in one paper(front and back page)."

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=download

I would think it would difficult for them to have a sample form printed 2 sided.