Learned some Thai History today - WW2

[ronthai]

Read for yourself if you are interested, it very surprised me, since Thailand took the Japanese side (did never know that).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#Thailand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#mediaviewer/File:WWII.png

[AYJAYDEE]

It was either that or get slaughtered. I cant understand why westerners are surprised by this. why would they expect thai loyalty to western governments? The lure of the "East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere" would have made perfect sense to a south-east asian nation.

[GaryB1263]

My great uncle was in Burma during WWII, He said the Thais were good soldiers. He had a lot of respect for the Japanese and the Thai soldiers after the war.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

[H1w4yR1da]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

Edited August 20, 2014 by H1w4yR1da

[AYJAYDEE]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

why should thailand have fought on the side of western powers?

[H1w4yR1da]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

why should thailand have fought on the side of western powers?

Because it wasn't the Western powers invading Thailand, it was the Japs. Western powers were happy to have Thailand as a buffer state between British Burma/Malaya and French Indochino. Edited August 20, 2014 by H1w4yR1da

[AYJAYDEE]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

why should thailand have fought on the side of western powers?

Because it wasn't the Western powers invading Thailand, it was the Japs. Western powers were happy to have Thailand as a buffer state between British Burma/Malaya and French Indochino.

the japanese didnt have to invade. they were allies. why on earth would thailand have chosen sure defeat just to please western powers that were still practicing colonialism throughout south east asia?

[Norrad]

There were reprisals for them allowing the Japanese to use Thailand as a base. Bangkok was heavily bombed during the war as bridges and railways were targeted. This had a devastating effect on the population and they criticized the government for their decision. (incidentally, it also lead to Pak Boong becoming a staple diet during the war as it grew everywhere.).

Now for something you don't learn. After the war, Britain set up base in Thailand and had full control of the government for a while (all decisions had to be approved by the Brits). This is why Thailand does not appear on the list of 22 countries in the world that Britain didn't invade.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Norrad

[ThaiPauly]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

[apetley]

My great uncle was in Burma during WWII, He said the Thais were good soldiers. He had a lot of respect for the Japanese and the Thai soldiers after the war.

One of my old college teachers was a prisoner of the Japanese in Burma during WW2. He was forced to work on the Burma Thai railroad and hated the soldiers for their brutality toward the prisoners and watching so many of his comrades die horribly. He was scarred for life by what he experienced.

[loppylugs1]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

Not if Churchill had his way Thailand was to be declared an "enemy of the people" by him ,only Trueman saved their skin

[loppylugs1]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

Rubbish the Thai army started firing on English troops as they entered Thailand to encounter the Japs landing

[H1w4yR1da]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

why should thailand have fought on the side of western powers?

Because it wasn't the Western powers invading Thailand, it was the Japs. Western powers were happy to have Thailand as a buffer state between British Burma/Malaya and French Indochino.

the japanese didnt have to invade. they were allies. why on earth would thailand have chosen sure defeat just to please western powers that were still practicing colonialism throughout south east asia?

To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

Edited August 20, 2014 by H1w4yR1da

[thailiketoo]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

The Japanese had won from Phibun a secret verbal promise to support them in an attack on Malaya and Burma. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Thailand_relations

Phibun hid out for a few hours when the Japanese attacked. The Thais resisted for a few hours. Phibun came out of hiding and told everyone the Japanese would be allowed to land and facilitated the attack on Singapore.

The Thais had a good battle experienced (Franco/Thai war) 50,000 man army at the time. The Thais could have caused the Japanese serious problems and given the Brits time to organize the defense of Singapore but chose not to.

Thai Military 1941

60,000 regulars

134 tanks

140 aircraft

18 vessels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Thai_War

Edited August 20, 2014 by thailiketoo

[AYJAYDEE]

To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

[thailiketoo]

the japanese didnt have to invade. they were allies. why on earth would thailand have chosen sure defeat just to please western powers that were still practicing colonialism throughout south east asia?

To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

As far as I know the Seri Thai were not much of a force. With the exception of a couple of American airmen rescued and one minor engagement I have never been able to find out any accomplishments except having their photo taken. Have you?

[thailiketoo]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

Not if Churchill had his way Thailand was to be declared an "enemy of the people" by him ,only Trueman saved their skin

Actually it was an American lady named Betty. Thais should watch the the video.

Edited August 20, 2014 by thailiketoo

[The Deerhunter]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

That sounds a bit of a Thai face saver to me. Iam not sure it was that sudden & dramatic, but I may be wrong. The Japanese had been courting all Asian countries for resources for decades since Japan "came out" of isolation and they engaged war wit Russia and invaded China/Manchuria. In particular they were courting Thailand quite agessively. At many levels they were very close to Thailand and Japan had many friends in high places in the government . The Thai system of royalty is also quite close to the Japanese demi-god Emperor. Yes, the Thais were told that they could have the choice of the Japanese army as guests or invaders and chose "guests," Thailand ultimartely declared war on USA & Britain but the ambassador to USA asked for asylum & refused to deliver the declaration of war. The Thais were fairly half hearted about their alliance with Japan and the thai people, resistance & monks tried to help the 10s of thousands of conscript labourers as much as possible at cost to their own lives in many cases. Even today many older Thais have mixed feelings about Japanese diplomacy & Imperialism. After the war US & Britain argued about reparations from Thailand as Britain HAD been declared war on & the USA had not. Britain bombed Bngkok and the bombs are still being dug up today.

If you want to know more interesting things about Thai history, google or Wiki "Franco-Thai war of 1942" That is what Victory monument is for.

[thailiketoo]

Thailand given to the British Empire 1946

[GuestHouse]

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

They obviously were not aware of what had been going on in Manchuria since 1931 - or alternatively your assertion is wrong.

----

My first recollection of hearing anything about Thailand or Thai people was from my old English Master (and Best Man at my parents wedding), a former Major in the Chindits.

His commentary on the Thai conduct during WWII was not at all complementary - But I knew him well and he was recounting first hand experience.

I regard the accounts of a man who served in the conflict in the very specific theatre to which this topic relates as having a lot more veracity than those of internet warriors on TVF.

But we are on TVF and I shall therefore refrain from recounting that which would transgress the forum rules.

[AYJAYDEE]

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

They obviously were not aware of what had been going on in Manchuria since 1931 - or alternatively your assertion is wrong.

----

My first recollection of hearing anything about Thailand or Thai people was from my old English Master (and Best Man at my parents wedding), a former Major in the Chindits.

His commentary on the Thai conduct during WWII was not at all complementary - But I knew him well and he was recounting first hand experience.

I regard the accounts of a man who served in the conflict in the very specific theatre to which this topic relates as having a lot more veracity than those of internet warriors on TVF.

But we are on TVF and I shall therefore refrain from recounting that which would transgress the forum rules.

they believed the japanese line that they needed manchuria for room for their people. they did not believe japan would do the same in southeast asia. read sukarno's biography to see the kind of thinking that southeast asian leaders had. and your master had a pro british bias.

[thailiketoo]

That sounds a bit of a Thai face saver to me. Iam not sure it was that sudden & dramatic, but I may be wrong. The Japanese had been courting all Asian countries for resources for decades since Japan "came out" of isolation and they engaged war wit Russia and invaded China/Manchuria. In particular they were courting Thailand quite agessively. At many levels they were very close to Thailand and Japan had many friends in high places in the government . The Thai system of royalty is also quite close to the Japanese demi-god Emperor. Yes, the Thais were told that they could have the choice of the Japanese army as guests or invaders and chose "guests," Thailand ultimartely declared war on USA & Britain but the ambassador to USA asked for asylum & refused to deliver the declaration of war. The Thais were fairly half hearted about their alliance with Japan and the thai people, resistance & monks tried to help the 10s of thousands of conscript labourers as much as possible at cost to their own lives in many cases. Even today many older Thais have mixed feelings about Japanese diplomacy & Imperialism. After the war US & Britain argued about reparations from Thailand as Britain HAD been declared war on & the USA had not. Britain bombed Bngkok and the bombs are still being dug up today.

If you want to know more interesting things about Thai history, google or Wiki "Franco-Thai war of 1942" That is what Victory monument is for.

Thai government declared war on Britain and the United States on January 25, 1942. Ambassadors don't get to change countries policies.

The USA bombed Bangkok many times. The B29 Super fortress (same plane that dropped the atomic bomb on Japan) made its combat debut June 5, 1944 when it bombed Bangkok Makasan railway depot.

In one of the first missions of the war the Flying Tigers (American mercenaries) bombed Chiang Mai 3 months after the Japanese surprise attack against Pearl Harbor.

On 26 December 1942 bombers of the United States’ Tenth Air Force, based in India, launched the first major strike by Allied air power against the Thai homeland, hitting the Hualumphong railway station, the port at Klong Toey, an arsenal and a power plant in Bangkok. It was the first real indication to the Thai government that they might have joined the wrong side. However, it was to be almost four months before a second bombing raid was feasible.

The Americans were back on 10 January 1944 with attacks against Don Muang airfield and laying mines in the estuary of the Chao Phrya River. On 18 January a brace of American fighters struck troop concentrations, ammunition dumps and workshops in Songkhla while B-24 bombers attacked Don Muang airfield and its attendant railroad station.

http://www.pattayamail.com/513/columns.shtml#hd6

Edited August 20, 2014 by thailiketoo

[loppylugs1]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

Not if Churchill had his way Thailand was to be declared an "enemy of the people" by him ,only Trueman saved their skin

Actually it was an American lady named Betty. Thais should watch the the video.

AS told from an American perspective. It was Burma that the British were mostly concerned with after the capitulation of Singapore,Thailand was mainly a sideline as the war progressed. Yes Japanese pushed the British back to India virtually,then the tide turned. 40,000 japs were killed on the retreat throughout Burma,coming to an end knocking on Thailand's border

Uncle of mine in RAF died /buried midway up Burma

Edited August 20, 2014 by Rooo
Fixed shortened name.

[thailiketoo]

AS told from an American perspective. It was Burma that the British were mostly concerned with after the capitulation of Singapore,Thailand was mainly a sideline as the war progressed. Yes Japanese pushed the British back to India virtually,then the tide turned. 40,000 japs were killed on the retreat throughout Burma,coming to an end knocking on Thailand's border

Uncle of mine in RAF died /buried midway up Burma

Thailand was rewarded for Phibun's close cooperation with Japan during the early years of war with the return of further territory that had once been under Bangkok's control, namely the four northernmost Malay states. In addition, the Thai Phayap Army was permitted to invade and annex the north-eastern Shan States of Burma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_in_World_War_II

Edited August 20, 2014 by Rooo

[Payboy]

Well, at least the East Asia Prosperity Sphere survived the war politics and it's still thriving in Thaniya Plaza.

[pinkpanther99]

Just to add to this thread, I visited Ao Manao for the first time this weekend. I have since found out there was a battle between the Japanese and Thai army on the beach there.

Quite interesting, read about the Battle of Prachuap Khiri Khan.

Note the important role played by the Thai postman!

[GuestHouse]

they believed the japanese line that they needed manchuria for room for their people. they did not believe japan would do the same in southeast asia. read sukarno's biography to see the kind of thinking that southeast asian leaders had. and your master had a pro british bias.

Can you please provide a source on what you claim the Thai authorities believed (reference to the Sukarno's biography for an idea of Thai thought at the time is as reliable as the biography of Eamon de Valera as a source of British thinking, although de Valera would at least be able to give an authoritative account of the British response to Irish assistance to the Axis military.

And you are right, my English Master was pro-British, but like many men who served in that war, his views where drawn from direct experience - not the 'Party Line'.

[AYJAYDEE]

they believed the japanese line that they needed manchuria for room for their people. they did not believe japan would do the same in southeast asia. read sukarno's biography to see the kind of thinking that southeast asian leaders had. and your master had a pro british bias.

Can you please provide a source on what you claim the Thai authorities believed (reference to the Sukarno's biography for an idea of Thai thought at the time is as reliable as the biography of Eamon de Valera as a source of British thinking, although de Valera would at least be able to give an authoritative account of the British response to Irish assistance to the Axis military.

And you are right, my English Master was pro-British, but like many men who served in that war, his views where drawn from direct experience - not the 'Party Line'.

Lol. its the rare vet who will disagree with what he believes he fought for.

why dont you provide the source that shows that if they were aware of what had been going on in Manchuria since 1931, that would make my assertion wrong and the thais didnt believe the propaganda?

sukarno would have been equally aware of manchuria and he believed their claims.

Edited August 20, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[willyumiii]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

Thais are not afraid to fight.

I do not think that Thailand officially fought in the occupation of South Vietnam by The United States.

But they did fight on the side of the USA.

I have been told my several U.S. Vietnam vets that the Thais did fight alongside of them and that Thais were some of the toughest, bravest and best fighting soldiers they had ever seen.

Thais are not afraid to fight.

They just seem to have the problem of joining the side of the losers!