Gaza conflict: Truce ends amid fresh fighting

[Morch]

You make very good points; I points, I think, that go to the heart of the problem- the technical problems, that is. I am unsure that what exists could be inferred or declared a "state." A state should have unambiguous borders, self control, taxes, services, etc. A state should be sovereign. While it is substantially true that even now Israel continues to administer utilities, tax distributions, etc., this does not lend to what would be a state. The Palestinians have taken the additional step and achieved an interim state-like status, and this aids their cause internationally, It does not help locally because Israeli goals are based on local solutions that enable them to negotiate in final talks certain key issues. For Israel, having this negotiating leverage removed, tentatively, by a supranational entity, conflicts things further.

Having two disparate, isolated entities, not connected by highways or land mass, defined as a "State" is finally not tenable. It is not workable for the Palestinians and in the end cuts a swath of hatred and death right through Israel proper. Israel does not want to surrender land captured in the various wars of aggression against them because they affirm, and are correct, that in the modern age they no longer have the means to protect themselves against threat with landmass providing depth. Tactically, this is a sound conclusion. Implementing this into the their final goal will be more elusive. A significant majority of the world are unaware of Israel's claim to this land, why they need/want it, only that it seems reasonable to return it to the arabs.

In my estimation Hamas is taking Israel for a ride. There is no combination of scenarios or developments, IMO, that Israel strategically winning this current mess. Tactically they will win but in the long range, in the hard to measure public perception arena, Israel is handing considerable moral authority to an entity that really has none- Hamas. However, if Israel is hitting this hard it is because they have a combination of resources/intel imploring them to hit hard now, as they will need resources elsewhere soon. There is only a handful of scenarios that speak to why so much? Why now?

There are good men and women throughout the world, especially the wise of have seen war. It is them above all others who often seek earnestly to avoid conflict. In the final analysis, at the dinner table, at bedtime, most people throughout the world want to be secure, have food, worship and freely associate, be loved and loved, and avoid war. Its amazing the common bonds that are so easily bridgeable.

Personally, I see no solution that does not have other "boots" on the ground in this area. IMO this also represents a temporary solution- UN, etc. Israel will never tolerate existential threats and the local arabs will never tolerate a cohabiting Jewish pretense in the Levant. Monitors might only be a band-aid.

Most people know, right, that Jews and Arabs are related? Maybe I just went too far but this is true. It is utterly amazing the deep physical and theological connections and still...

There's a few things I would like to address to your post. Hopefully you will respond to them honestly. (And may I say that prevarication or non-response is "honest" only in a certain light..cf your previous reticence to respond to some of my points, and cf your claim to be honest). Sorry to force the issue, but you did ask for it.

1. A state should have unambiguous borders, True! How about the (virtually) contiguous border that Israel actually accepted in 1947?

1.a. A state should have unambiguous borders. True! Does the state of Israel have unambiguous borders currently? No it doesn't, mainly because it constantly tries to expand them.

2. "For Israel, having this negotiating leverage removed, tentatively, by a supranational entity, conflicts things further. " Yes, we all know that. It is only those that can not be unbiased that resent UN "democracy" in this issue.

3. Your posts suggest a "might is right" attitude. If so, so be it. Lets look at your comment, "There is no combination of scenarios or developments, IMO, that Israel strategically winning this current mess. ". ..."Might" is not necessarily muscle; It can be moral or other advantage too.

4. " Israel will never tolerate existential threats and the local arabs will never tolerate a cohabiting Jewish pretense in the Levant. Monitors might only be a band-aid.

" . Let me suggest a correction; Zionists will never accept a perceived threat on the pretense to grab more land. I think local Arabs will accept a fair deal.

"fair deal" being the crux.

The 1947 partition plan borders were attainable only with a lot of goodwill from both sides (not to mention neighboring countries). As everyone knew the score, it was quite obvious that things would go south real quick after the map was to become a reality. I do not think that the following war came as a huge surprise to anyone (just the outcome part). Going back to the 1947 borders is not something Israelis will accept (forget governments), certainly not workable with the added weight of distrust and hatred going that far back. Most formulations for solving the conflict center on 1967 lines, which are somewhat more reasonable in terms of geography.

Israel does not constantly try to expand its borders. The borders with two of its neighbors are quite clear (Egypt and Jordan), a third is mostly so apart from a rather small area (Lebanon), and Syria - well, that's an issue for sure (but as there's no one home at Syria right now, can't solve that one anytime soon). The relevant border issues are more to do with the final formulation of an agreement with the Palestinians, then.

What reason do you have to believe that "local Arabs" (I take it those would be the Palestinians? Or perhaps just the Fatah's PA?) will accept a "fair deal"? And what would be considered a fair deal under the circumstances?

Why are the 1947 borders different to the 1967 borders which are different to the 1976 borders which are.......up to today..and in all those changes, Israel has more and more land in it's control. The next settlement it makes in the Westbank is yet another expansion. The next Arab family it kicks out of East Jerusalem and install a Jewish family in the house is another bit of expansion.

The recent thread suggesting Israel follow the Arab Peace Initiative included the plausible notion that in doing so, not only would Palestinians be satisfied, but Hamas would be undermined and lose a lot of traction. Unfortunately, it would mean Israel could no longer expand, and that is what keeps this war going, because to reach a peace, means Israel becomes a finite size. They haven't seized all the aquifers yet.

The 1947 borders were accepted by Israel, rejected by the Palestinians. The Palestinians, aided by some Arab countries started a war and lost. They also lost some land. No mystery here. In 1967, another war - same result (only to a greater degree). Not sure how 1976 is significant (war was on 1973 - but if this case, same applies). Israel did not start all of these wars, and to a known degree - Israeli leadership did not really expect such outcomes or was overly sure of how to go on forward.

If one takes 1967 as the height of Israeli territorial gains, then compared with present day, Israel shrunk quite a bit (Sinai Peninsula returned to Egypt following peace agreement, Israel unilaterally withdrawing from the Gaza Strip, and parts of the West Bank transferred to the PA's control). Guess the amount of expansion would depend on which point in time one uses as a reference?

While not responding to the Arab Peace Initiative was definitely a mistake, the notion that doing so would have somehow undermine the Hamas is an opinion, not a fact. A fact would be Hamas carrying out a mass terrorist attack on Israelis, as the initiative was announced. Also, Lebanon was not at the time (nor is it today) in any state to sign and uphold any real agreement with Israel (pending Hezbollah's unlikely consent). While Israel should have at least engaged the Arab nations in talks, determining that negotiations would have been successful is far from being certain. Would have been a hard sale for the Israeli public at the time, considering the level of terrorist attacks back then.

[Morch]

I realize no one here cares, this is the freedom of such posting. While I clearly have a position in regard to supporting Israeli actions another poster forced me to consider a critical weakness in the thinking that underlies my conviction. I often assert that we should look to what could be done now, and that the past should only inform the choices, but "first cause" issues regarding Palestinian land "grab" have been somewhat overlooked in my thinking. So, over the past 24 hours I have revisited considerable information regarding recent history of the past few hundred years.

What if... what if what is happening to the local arabs today has actually been orchestrated, implemented, and sustained not only over the period of the state of Israel but into the British Mandate itself. What if the policies, such as destroying homes and villages, are not even anything new to the Israelis, but were also practices executed by the Brits. What if, while there were always indigenous Jews, over the course of some years in the 1930s Jewish immigration quickly came to represent such a significant part of the population that an effective "right of return" reverse scenario threatened the local arab population and their way of life as Jewish immigrants militarized; and they did. What if, in this particular era of the declining British Mandate, arabs protesting the Brits massacres, in response to arab protests, pushed the Brits further into the new and fertile zionist settlers camp and this proximity influenced the Brits facilitating the creation of the State of Israel?

What if the events today represent a deliberate, sustained effort to totally unseat a given population through exhaustion and incrementalism? What if my deeper prejudice against radical Islam is undermining an objective consideration of facts- do the arabs have a point? I tend to concede that there was a land grab of sorts, then often digress into what do we do now? But is first cause sufficient to really put this issue into context? Do I become a Jew hater if i concede such a strategic point? Does my recognizing that this may be true undermine my support for Israel today? Is it valid based on my correct knowledge that yes, muslims want all Jews dead, to side with Israel because of this?

For me my knowledge has deepened over the past few days, both by the cues of my opponents here and some homework. I had peripheral understanding of what happened in the beginning of the 20th century, but didn't realize that when when one plows through the data its apparent that the arabs were on the losing side of a sustained effort to unseat them from their land. I do not think I any longer question or rationalize this point. However, I still have no idea how to move forward. For those of you who think I am a dolt, ok; I am not. If any thinks this issue is so clear cut they are likely overlooking something. I don't think our greatest minds have considered this so clear cut. So, grant me the benefit of the doubt that I am seeking objectivity.

How did the Brits facilitate the creation of the State of Israel?

The Jewish re-settlement effort predates the British Mandate, and there were severe restrictions on Jewish immigration placed by the British up until their last day in-charge. Same went for anything of military nature by Jewish organizations.

Given your previous posts on similar topics, I am not overly surprised that you would consider such views - but have to say that coming to the conclusions regarding "sustained efforts" and the like, within the span of few days sounds less than serious, considering some of the level of detail and understanding often exhibited by you on things Middle East.

[Morch]

I noted in this morning's news that a young boy was killed in Israel by mortar fire from Gaza. My condolences go out to his family. It is tragic to lose young children as a result of the stupidity of the older generation. I would add that there were also children killed in Gaza this week - at least a further 4 were reported in the press. Our job as adults is to prevent this happening, not encourage it by jumping on some ideological bandwagon driven by insane political opportunists.

I would add that I have little hope that a reasonable basis for a truce will be found anytime soon. Netanyahu and his cronies appear to have substantial support for more war mongering. This past week, a poll published by the Israel Democracy Institute found 48% of those questioned thought an appropriate amount of force had been used by the Israeli military; 45% said too little force had been deployed; and 6% thought too much had been used. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/gaza-war-resumes-as-talks-break-down)

Gaza is in ruins. Over 2000 people dead. Hundreds of them children. And 45% of Israelis think that too little force has been deployed, while only 6% think that too much force has been used?? Either this poll is inaccurate, or the Israelis have become a particularly vicious people, spurred on no doubt by the anti-Palestinian propaganda spewed out by mainstream media.

How are things standing on the Palestinian side when it comes to polls and public views?

From your posts it would seem that the prospects for peace, such as they are, depend solely on Israel's actions and wishes. No weight whatsoever to Hamas's actions and stance when it comes to current negotiations.It is true that there is quite a lot of support for right wing views in Israel, it is true that the ones setting the tone in the current government are Netanyahu, Lieberman and Bennet. That has to do with gutless leadership of Israel's left and center parties (especially those which are part of the coalition).

Rather than settling for The Guardian's quote, one can always check the actual poll itself (available on the IDI's website). Contains quite a few other results and possible interpretations. This, however, does not go well with definitive "conclusions" and assertions appearing in your post. For example, 66% of the Jewish population holds that the solution vs. the Hamas is best answered by a joint military and diplomatic effort, as opposed to 26% favoring only a military approach (similarly, there are questions relating to ways Israel should respond to Hamas's demands etc.). Seems like support is not necessarily for the government per se but more for the action against the Hamas, btw.

And finally, the Hamas is doing a great job of making itself hated by the Israeli public, in general and regardless of political leanings. No need for Propaganda in this case.

[Morch]

I do not believe you have ever set 1 foot in Israel , I even doubt you know it's exact location.

It is against the law to discriminate against Arabs and you will find even speaking bad is punishable .

Price attacks are carried out by a minority and frowned upon by majority, not to mention punishable by law in comparison where attacks on Jews are encouraged , paid for and celebrated.

Quote: "I do not believe you have ever set 1 foot in Israel , I even doubt you know it's exact location".

I doubt that you ever set foot in Nazi Germany - so following your logic, this means that you have no right to comment on the Holocaust.

Quote:" It is against the law to discriminate against Arabs and you will find even speaking bad is punishable ."

Maybe in theory, but in practice abuse of Arabs is totally acceptable. Rabbi Dov Lior said it was "acceptable to kill Palestinian civilians and destroy Gaza".

He has also said:

- "captured Arab terrorists could be used as guinea pigs in medical experiments" (now, where have I heard that before?)

- an IVF baby born to a Jewish women using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man will have the "negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews" and that "Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring".

- After Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Palestinian worshipers at the Cave of the Patriarchs, Lior described Goldstein as "holier than all the martyrs of the Holocaust."

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira has encouraged the IDF to use Palestinian civilians as human shields.

So, while such hate speech may be against the law, neither of these "Holy Men of Israel" has ever been charged with any offence related to these utterances. In fact, when they were to be brought in for questioning about these hate speeches, there were street demonstrations in support of them! Even Israel's Chief Rabbi came to their rescue, and the PM - Netanyahu - interfered to ensure no charges were made.

Quote: Price attacks are carried out by a minority and frowned upon by majority, not to mention punishable by law ....

Great. Another piece of Israeli double standards to pretend it is somehow a civilised country. Price attacks have been carried out by settlers while the IDF stood by and protected the settlers in case of violence by Palestinians. One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just. That is almost half of the population! There are numerous other examples - see: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/nearly-half-of-israeli-jews-support-settler-price-tag-attacks-against-palestinians.html

You keep bringing up Lior and Shapira as if they represent the majority of the Israeli public, whereas this is not the case.

Furthermore, as far as I am aware, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the government to explain why charges were not

brought against them (if not gravely mistaken, this would make some headlines in a few weeks). I do not recall Netanyahu

actively interfering in the case, although it surely put him in a tough spot. This is by no means something Israel got to be

proud about, but taking it as a representative case is over the top.

There is a certain amount of discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel, yes. Does it mean that the views expressed by

Lior and his ilk are the accepted norm? Hardly. Can't see how you demonstrated it being "totally acceptable", not for the

first time.

It's "Price Tag" attacks, and not "Price" attacks. As others pointed out, the timing of the poll would almost guarantee getting

more radical results leaning toward right wing views and anti-Palestinian opinions. The 46% refers to the Jewish population

only, so the actual percentage would be lower. There were instances were IDF forces did not take action as expected, by no

means in all cases.

[Morch]

Quote: "I do not believe you have ever set 1 foot in Israel , I even doubt you know it's exact location".

I doubt that you ever set foot in Nazi Germany - so following your logic, this means that you have no right to comment on the Holocaust.

Quote:" It is against the law to discriminate against Arabs and you will find even speaking bad is punishable ."

Maybe in theory, but in practice abuse of Arabs is totally acceptable. Rabbi Dov Lior said it was "acceptable to kill Palestinian civilians and destroy Gaza".

He has also said:

- "captured Arab terrorists could be used as guinea pigs in medical experiments" (now, where have I heard that before?)

- an IVF baby born to a Jewish women using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man will have the "negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews" and that "Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring".

- After Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Palestinian worshipers at the Cave of the Patriarchs, Lior described Goldstein as "holier than all the martyrs of the Holocaust."

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira has encouraged the IDF to use Palestinian civilians as human shields.

So, while such hate speech may be against the law, neither of these "Holy Men of Israel" has ever been charged with any offence related to these utterances. In fact, when they were to be brought in for questioning about these hate speeches, there were street demonstrations in support of them! Even Israel's Chief Rabbi came to their rescue, and the PM - Netanyahu - interfered to ensure no charges were made.

Quote: Price attacks are carried out by a minority and frowned upon by majority, not to mention punishable by law ....

Great. Another piece of Israeli double standards to pretend it is somehow a civilised country. Price attacks have been carried out by settlers while the IDF stood by and protected the settlers in case of violence by Palestinians. One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just. That is almost half of the population! There are numerous other examples - see: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/nearly-half-of-israeli-jews-support-settler-price-tag-attacks-against-palestinians.html

In Palestine on national channels it's perfectly ok to address Israel and Jews as pigs and to wish for all Jews to be killed or burned.

It is perfectly ok in children's program's to use Micky mouse as a brave soldier who kills Jews .

Please comment

I already commented. Maybe you don't read so well, but I did note that Jewish Holy Men - not just some secular talking head on television - applauds the death of Palestinians. And calls for more killings. As well as referring to Gentiles as "barbaric". This is contrary to Israeli law - so why is it allowed? Why are these men not charged? And why is this hateful rubbish reported in Israeli media without the most stinging condemnations?

And maybe a better example if you want to illustrate the level of hatred emanating from Israel - a well-known Israeli politician and parliament member (Ayelet Shaked) has branded Palestinians as terrorists, saying mothers of all Palestinians should also be killed during the ongoing Israeli assault on the besieged Gaza Strip. She also called called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

“They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists,” Shaked said, adding, “They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”

Where is your stinging rebuke to these Jewish holy men and the fascist MP? I will conclude that continuing refusal to do so on your part indicates your support of their sentiments.

So, you see, Israel has clearly lost any claims it may once have had to the moral high ground. Many people are starting to despise the Israeli leadership, and question the direction of Israeli society as a whole. And this turn-around has occurred despite the flooding of social media by pro-Israelis, and the control of much of mainstream western media by pro-Israeli interests. Surely you have to question your stance if all of the efforts at propaganda are not preventing people withdrawing previous support for Israel?

Again, the Rabbis you repeatedly quote are by no means mainstream, and contrary to your assertion, there were "stinging

condemnations". There were similar condemnations of Shaked - which, active and vocal as she may be, is still not holding

any major official capacity (other than being a very odd representative MP for her party).

Equating the nastiness produced by two Rabbis and an MP with the usual crop coming from top echelons of the other side

is quite disingenuous. I do not believe even any of the above got to say anything of the sort on an official TV address.

It would be more to the point if you quoted Netanyahu or Lieberman (and to a lesser degree, Bennet), or managed to show

an Israeli mainstream news media channel employing such language.

[Morch]

One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just.

Of course, CBR250 neglects to mention that his poll was carried out following the massacre of five Israeli family members in Itamar in 2011 by Palestinians. His agenda to demonize Israel and ignore the barbarity of Hamas grows more and more clear.

I was under the impression that this particular crime was never solved.

Impressions can be misleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogel_family_massacre

[Morch]

You see, it is totally irrelevant what claims Israel makes, because people like yourself will continue to bash Israel.

As one of my Israeli friends mentioned the other day, people in Israel are tired of trying to prove anything despite all the evidence, so whats the point.

For you to even compare comments of one MP or one Rabbi to naming the streets after killers of jews is simply beyond comprehension,

You can continue your keyboard war, while Israel will do what it has to do to protect its people.

You were invited to back up one of your claims way back on post #224. You have not done so - and we both know the reason for your avoidance is because that claim you made - as with others - is patently absurd. Neither have you condemned the hateful rubbish spewed out by some notable Israelis that I drew to your attention.

Israel may be "protecting its people", but this is only a minor aim in the larger game of stealing the land of the Palestinian people - and of course appeasing the egos of Netanyahu and his fellow murderous politicians.

And you suggest I am engaged in a "keyboard war"? Another of your fantasies. No, I write to convey information and offer analysis. And prefer to do so to those who have the wit to engage in discussion - I actually don't mind if people disagree, as long as they do so from a considered position, with evidence, and the capacity to employ logic. You, unfortunately, seem unwilling or unable to demonstrate any of those qualities.

I do not need to back up my claim, simply because you are either not capable or not willing to even consider the facts.

And the facts are Israel does not promote hatred towards Arabs or Palestinians. Arabs and Palestinians do.

Facts are Israel punishes those responsible for price attacks or hate speeches, , Arabs and Palestinians encourage attacks, kidnappings and hate speech. Not only encourage it but reward it and promote it .

Fact is your poll was conducted at a certain location at certain timing, with 500 people, incase you were not aware, Israel has 8.2 million people, so 500 does not even make 0.1 %.

For you to come to conclusion that after less than 0.1% were surveyed, 46% did not like Palestinians is a fact of Israels hate towards Palestinians is as i said before beyond comprehension, nevertheless expected from Israel bashers.

Fact is Israel does not allow discrimination against Arabs and any public hate speeches are forbidden and punishable.

Now you claim to convey information and offer analysis, please post your credentials to give you some credibility, otherwise your analysis of situation worth as much as a used toilet paper.

There is certainly a lot of hate speech directed at Israeli Arabs and Palestinians - especially evident when the fighting is on,

or when terrorist attack are being carried out. There was much coverage of this, for example, right after the kidnapping of the

three Israelis. Shameful to say that this was further fanned by certain politicians and public figures. While laws do exist in this

regard, enforcement is far from being meticulous - in fact, lenient describes it better.

There is also not very much apparent motivation nor exceptional success when it comes to putting a stop to "Price Tag"

attacks (other than high profile cases). Punishments so far weren't that harsh as well.

Polls are an accepted way to get notions of public views, as long as results are treated with care and are qualified.

There is also discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel. While this is a far cry from South African Apartheid, as some

Israel bashers seem to imagine, it is also not quite up to the standard exhibited by the established Western democracies.

[Morch]

This morning, a 4 year old boy was killed in Israel.

Condolences to the family of this innocent child.

But this is a direct consequence of Israel electing such an extremist government. Maybe voters will think before they vote in the next election.

Isn't that how the oft repeated tune goes?

Israelis do not elect governments, but vote for parties. Coalition agreements being what they are, sometimes the result

is not as reflective of public sentiment as may seem.

[Morch]

One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just.

Of course, CBR250 neglects to mention that his poll was carried out following the massacre of five Israeli family members in Itamar in 2011 by Palestinians. His agenda to demonize Israel and ignore the barbarity of Hamas grows more and more clear.

I was under the impression that this particular crime was never solved.

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

So, you're not familiar with details and facts, but rush to pronounce judgement based on a one liner half-opinion by yet

another poster. Lovely. Let me just quote from one of your own posts: Either you have knowledge that we don't have here,

or you are jumping to conclusions in a biased way

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753213-gaza-conflict-truce-ends-amid-fresh-fighting/page-11#entry8287971)

There you go - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogel_family_massacre - not that hard to be informed.

One should think it would be easy to make a point against Israel's conduct in the Gaza Strip without resorting to nonsense.

[Morch]

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

Of course nothing that can demonize is surprise for a biased mind.

5 murdered family members (baby and children) deliberately murdered in their sleep, is a massacre.

2,000 people, out of which hundreds if not more are armed militants, other killed by Hamas, others died of natural causes, while others being used as human shields and no innocents being deliberately targeted, are not.

Let your callousness show for all to see.

You're really clutching at straws to try to bring natural deaths into the official figures. You're saying human shields killed are valid deaths (and it is entirely arguable that human shields are used in such a densely packed city...just as more likely the "human shield" allegation is a right wing propaganda meme), and you are ill-informed if you think no innocents have been targeted.

Shame on you. Shame!.

Them official figures are based on Hamas's Ministry of Health figures, crossed with partial data from UN organizations, and various NGOs. The last time I checked, the UN reports themselves were based on Hamas's Ministry of Health and Palestinian NGOs figures. Regarding Hamas's casualty figures as legit is a choice, albeit not necessarily a smart one - worthwhile checking how these things went on previous clashes. As for Palestinian NGOs operating in the Gaza Strip, they are under the same constraints enforced on reporters, meaning that accuracy could be less than desired (and that is without getting into inherent bias issues).

Hamas rarely admits to militant casualties during hostilities. On all those occasions which documented ambulances rushing in, wounded and dead arriving at hospitals - do you recall many that were reported as Hamas militants? So yes, one could take that as a sure sign that there were none hit, or that coverage was always not around when that happened etc. - question is if one really believes the odds. There are some interesting statistics around regarding general population composition in relation to the asserted casualty lists - may want to have a read on that.

Bringing up the right wing propaganda, doesn't it occur to you that Hamas works its own angle of the same?

A couple of other observations:

There is a certain difference between what you refer to as "human shields" (which, if I'm getting it right, is more along the Hollywood hostage scene), and the "human shields" referred to by others (which got more to do with carrying out military operations from a densely populated area). The former rarely happens in warfare, the latter happens too often.

Taking a population of 1.6 million and a 4/1000 mortality rate (conservative estimates), it would make about 500 death a month. I wouldn't be so sure figures supplied by the Hamas are always meticulous in separating these deaths from the ones attributed to the Israeli attacks.

[dr_lucas]

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

Of course nothing that can demonize is surprise for a biased mind.

5 murdered family members (baby and children) deliberately murdered in their sleep, is a massacre.

2,000 people, out of which hundreds if not more are armed militants, other killed by Hamas, others died of natural causes, while others being used as human shields and no innocents being deliberately targeted, are not.

Let your callousness show for all to see.

You're really clutching at straws to try to bring natural deaths into the official figures. You're saying human shields killed are valid deaths (and it is entirely arguable that human shields are used in such a densely packed city...just as more likely the "human shield" allegation is a right wing propaganda meme), and you are ill-informed if you think no innocents have been targeted.

Shame on you. Shame!.

Them official figures are based on Hamas's Ministry of Health figures, crossed with partial data from UN organizations,

and various NGOs. The last time I checked, the UN reports themselves were based on Hamas's Ministry of Health and

Palestinian NGOs figures. Regarding Hamas's casualty figures as legit is a choice, albeit not necessarily a smart one -

worthwhile checking how these things went on previous clashes. As for Palestinian NGOs operating in the Gaza Strip,

they are under the same constraints enforced on reporters, meaning that accuracy could be less than desired (and that

is without getting into inherent bias issues).

Hamas rarely admits to militant casualties during hostilities. On all those occasions which documented ambulances

rushing in, wounded and dead arriving at hospitals - do you recall many that were reported as Hamas militants?

So yes, one could take that as a sure sign that there were none hit, or that coverage was always not around when

that happened etc. - question is if one really believes the odds. There are some interesting statistics around regarding

general population composition in relation to the asserted casualty lists - may want to have a read on that.

Bringing up the right wing propaganda, doesn't it occur to you that Hamas works its own angle of the same?

A couple of other observations:

There is a certain difference between what you refer to as "human shields" (which, if I'm getting it right, is more along

the Hollywood hostage scene), and the "human shields" referred to by others (which got more to do with carrying out

military operations from a densely populated area). The former rarely happens in warfare, the latter happens too often.

Taking a population of 1.6 million and a 4/1000 mortality rate (conservative estimates), it would make about 500 death

a month. I wouldn't be so sure figures supplied by the Hamas are always meticulous in separating these deaths from

the ones attributed to the Israeli attacks.

One correction - The Gaza strip has 1.8 million estimated residents, not 1.6 million, ie the number of mortality rate, by the conservative 4/1000 calculation is 720 people per month. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

And the "New York Times" reported that Hamas are conveniently adding those numbers to the death tolls, not me, so "shame" on them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/middleeast/civilian-or-not-new-fight-in-tallying-the-dead-from-the-gaza-conflict.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A9%22%7D

[Morch]

The Australian bit was meant as a cynic joke, maybe not a well baked one, but the point was that you recommended his post - as balanced and sympathetic. I was referring to it and to the both of you in this context only.

It was amusing because it just looked like a sort of Australian brotherhood, when one Aussie recommends the other Aussie's post (who might thought the same as you about his post, ie. only in your Aussie minds), and conveniently describing it as something it is not. It just seemed like a fitting joke.

I have nothing but utmost respect and admiration to many Australians, I am indifferent to others, and I dislike a few. Just the same as with people of any other nationality that I know, including Israelis.

Actually, I assure you there are many more Israelis I dislike than Australians I dislike.

If my usage of the term Australian offended you or anyone, that was absolutely not my intention, and I apologize.

Now, back to the topic.

When did I ever say 99.9% of the Palestinians want to kill all Jews? I am 100% sure you are mixing me up with someone else.

Do you suggest that there aren't hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians in the rockets range?

Do you suggest Israel deliberately targets innocents?

The success rate of the rockets is irrelevant, their destructive potential is relevant. Many of these terror attacks did not fail due to incompetence but were eliminated by anti-missile defense systems. The defense system isn't perfect, it has approximately 90% success rate and no existing technology can improve that.

There were also over 1971 injured innocent civilians, many of them permanently maimed. There was/is also a lot of damage and destruction to civilian property.

Note that these terror attacks were also accompanied by other terror suicide bombing attacks targeting civilians which took the toll of 804 innocent civilian lives, man, women and children and 1000s of injuries, many critically and many citizens will stay permanently disabled.

So, for once, can you rationally answer my question, without dodging it the same way you just did?

What, in your mind, is the appropriate response to thousands of rockets being fired indiscriminately for years into civilian territories, killing 28 civilians, injuring and permanently maiming 1971+ innocents, endangering the lives of hundreds of thousands in their range, destroying & damaging civilian property, terrorizing innocent civilians by disrupting their life, their work?

Your humour about Australians didn't work. But ok, I accept you tried, and it was not intended as some offbeat denigration. And there is no brotherhood of Australians on here, just coincidence that some of us of similar views have the same nationality. You are fortunate that another Australian of my acquaintance doesn't join these threads, as he makes JT and General Grant look like soft little left-wing pussies.

I have not dodged your questions. If you have reasonable questions, I will always respond to them. And I respect your right to disagree with my answers. I will even go so far as to acknowledge (as I have done before, if you recall) that you do apply your intellect to the issues, and don't just respond with some knee-jerk Pavlovian reaction as do some of the posters.

And to respond to your question. I have said in other posts what I believe is required - but I will say it again, as I appreciate that there are a number of threads and numerous posts and responses, so it is easy to lose track. I hope you really do want to hear what I have to say, even if you don't agree with it. This willingness to listen is, of course, also the way forward in peace negotiations, ie at least start by trying to understand the others' position.

I believe that the appropriate response - now that the situation has been allowed to deteriorate to the current level - is to utilise international agents (USA, EU, UN - maybe some of the more moderate Arab states, although this isn't straightforward) to oversee a truce. And I think that Israel MUST make the first moves. This is not an indication of weakness or failure by Israel - it is just an acknowledgment that Israel holds most of the aces. It can use the international force to arrive at a temporary positions that are acceptable to both. I don't think it will be easy. I suspect that if Hamas believes a long-lasting ceasefire and credible peace process is ahead, that they will try to wreck it by aggressive actions. Only an Israeli government that, in contrast, really wants peace will manage such inevitable provocations effectively. And I am not at all confident that Israel can find a government that sincerely wants peace.

But that is what I see as an appropriate response to rockets being fired indiscriminately into Israel. What I see as an inappropriate response is to use the massively superior military power that Israel has at its disposal to attempt to crush the Hamas military - knowing full well that any attempt to do so will lead to massive numbers of deaths amongst innocent people in the short term, and the hardening of anti-israeli sentiment in the long term. If Palestinians really are living under such a primitive, vindictive and murderous body as Hamas is painted to be, then surely Palestinians would respond positively to an Israel that demonstrates common sense and compassion. And even if the evils of Hamas are overstated, as I suspect they may well be, Israel can still try to win a battle for the hearts and minds of Palestinians by demonstrating an adherence to principles of justice and humanity - not flouting those principles through flexing its military muscle at the cost of the civilian lives.

One comment I must make about your question - you present the facts of rockets from Hamas (which I don't dispute) as a single one-sided event. The fact that these rockets are fired after years of subjugation and inflicting humiliation onto the local Palestinians is absent from the picture you paint. Also absent is recognition of the targeted assassinations and destruction of property in Gaza; the loss of livelihoods, of freedom to travel; the extra judicial killings that include "collateral damage" of dead civilians. The rockets aren't just the result of some deeply embedded hatred for Jews (despite the claims of a few of the ratbags to which we are subjected). There are legitimate - or at least understandable - reasons why Palestinians supported Hamas in the 2005 elections. The preceding years of the blockade by Israel that wrecked the economy of Gaza, led to food shortages and lives of poverty; as well as attempts to colonise Gaza by settlers with IDF support, were guaranteed to alienate the population. Why does Israel think we should celebrate the fact that they gave up trying to colonise Gaza? Pretending they "returned land"? The Gazans know that this wasn't a peace gesture, despite Israel's media pretending it was. Really, it was an acknowledgement that the IDF could not provide protection for those settlers who had tried to take over tracts of land in Gaza without massive additional funding. To then blame the Gazans after all of this treatment for turning to Hamas is disingenuous at best. You would probably have done the same. I suspect I would have too, despite my preference for adult behaviour and peace.

So, I have attempted to answer your question about what I see as an appropriate response. In return, I would like to ask you to share your thoughts about the following: given we are stuck in this morass, what do you see as the long-term solution in terms of actions by Israel? (I'm tired of being told what Palestinians must do - there are two parties in this conflict. It is beneficial for us readers if you refer to Israel, being that is the country for which you have much more detailed knowledge). What can Israel do to help arrive at a point where Palestinians choose not to import arms to defend/attack? What can Israel do to arrive at a point where Palestinians want to get on with their neighbours in Israel so that all of their children (Israeli and Palestinian) can grow up in safety? How do we arrive at a point where Israel no longer spends 20% of its budget on warfare, but spends it on education, environment and quality of life projects for its citizens? What can Israel do that might ensure Palestine can be relied on as a reasonable neighbour who will not support the movements of terrorists hell bent on destroying Israel? What must Israel do?

It is a little bit sad. A claim is made over and over again, regarding how disproportionate Israel's military response was/is (and I do not disagree with that claim). A question is then raised as to what would constitute a proportional (or accepted) response to Hamas firing all these rockets at Israel, which never ever gets a direct answer. It is always either repeating that Israel's actual response was disproportionate, or tagging the question as a deflection attempt, or (as in the above post) going on about negotiations, international forces, and historical factors leading to this point in time.

So to get this straight - there was no attempt to answer the question, but an attempt to indulge in a rambling review of all the things that Israel should do now (as opposed to the question, which referred to what Israel's response should have been), coupled with a one-sided placement of blame and historical review.

Not sure how you can be tired of being told what Palestinians must do - that is something which you rarely refer to at all.

[Jingthing]

The rockets are STILL coming from Gaza into Israel!

If the Israeli response was so "disproportionate" surely they would have wiped out the rocket launching capability by now.

So no, I am not buying the proportionality argument.

Any country that could would do what it takes to stop the rockets.

The military goal of Israel is to take out military targets, NOT to create high civilian dead numbers.

It seems the goal of Hamas IS to create high civilian dead numbers of their OWN people. Yes they want high civilian dead numbers in Israel too ... it's not Israel's fault but to her CREDIT that they have failed in that.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[Credo]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

[Ulysses G.]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

One side is actively encouraging their people to ignore warnings that could save them.

[dexterm]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israel’s 5 assassinations during the same period.

It was a golden opportunity to negotiate an extended truce with Hamas.

Seems to me it is Netanyahu who has failed miserably to achieve the “prolonged period of quiet” which is supposed to be his present goal. The situation now is far worse than before. He has the blood of 67 young Israelis on his hands for his failure to do his job.

[Ulysses G.]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israels 5 assassinations during the same period.

"Only" one rocket per week and thousands before and thousands afterwards. Why keep repeating the same nonsense? Hamas started this and all they had to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel to stop it.

[konying]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israel’s 5 assassinations during the same period.

It was a golden opportunity to negotiate an extended truce with Hamas.

Seems to me it is Netanyahu who has failed miserably to achieve the “prolonged period of quiet” which is supposed to be his present goal. The situation now is far worse than before. He has the blood of 67 young Israelis on his hands for his failure to do his job.

Its is totally and utterly irrelevant if one or half a rocket fallen harmlessly.

What is relevant is that not only its against the international law to target civilians but the fact that rockets are being fired with intention to kill.

Straight from the horses mouth, so hopefully you will stop posting the same nonsense over and over again claiming if rockets did not kill anyone then its ok in your books

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8

[Thorgal]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israels 5 assassinations during the same period.

"Only" one rocket per week and thousands before and thousands afterwards. Why keep repeating the same nonsense? Hamas started this and all they had to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel to stop it.

Never asked yourself why they shoot rockets ? There has been an occupation in Gaza and West Bank for ages by the Israeli's.

The occupation started long time before existance of Hamas.

Hamas brigades are using rockets. Not random Palestinian civilians.

Hamas leaders could be destroyed with known Israeli secret intelligence.

[konying]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israels 5 assassinations during the same period.

"Only" one rocket per week and thousands before and thousands afterwards. Why keep repeating the same nonsense? Hamas started this and all they had to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel to stop it.

Never asked yourself why they shoot rockets ? There has been an occupation in Gaza and West Bank for ages by the Israeli's.

The occupation started long time before existance of Hamas.

Hamas brigades are using rockets. Not random Palestinian civilians.

Hamas leaders could be destroyed with known Israeli secret intelligence.

There has not been any occupation of Gaza since the hand over back in 2005, 10 days after the withdrawal Hamas started to fire rockets

Ever considered that may be shooting rockets and trying to destroy Israel is the the only sole purpose?

If you have not, you can always hear it from the horses mouth

[Neeranam]

Interesting what Jimmy says.

[konying]

Very good analyses, even for the Israel bashers.

Should Israel Exist? Hamas Leader’s Dumb, Damaging Answer

[Ulysses G.]

As misguided as some countries can be, the governments usually try to protect their citizens. Here it seems that one side is failing miserably at doing that task.

Prior to June 12 when this present conflagration started less than one rocket per week for the previous 6 weeks had fallen harmlessly, despite Israels 5 assassinations during the same period.

"Only" one rocket per week and thousands before and thousands afterwards. Why keep repeating the same nonsense? Hamas started this and all they had to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel to stop it.

Never asked yourself why they shoot rockets ?

I already know why they shoot rockets. It is in their charter. They want to drive Israel into the sea, but it isn't working out very well.

[konying]

Your source comes from Memri TV : was co-founded in 1998 by Yygal Carmon, an ex-Israeli intelligence service officer, and Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-born, American political scientist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

Next horse please ?

Your problem is the source?NOT the content?

Google is your friend, do post links to sources which you approve which dispute the fact that Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel or co existence.

Awaiting with patience

[Scott]

Posts with messed up quotes have been deleted.

[chuckd]

Interesting what Jimmy says.

Talking about President Carter, here's his latest press release:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimmy Carter To Give Keynote Speech At Muslim Convention In Detroit

8.25.2014 News Paul Bois

On Monday, The Toledo Blade reported that former President Jimmy Carter, the same President who accused Israel of practicing apartheid and called for the U.S to "legitimize" Hamas, will be giving the keynote speech at the 51st annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) held in Detroit this Friday, September 1st.

The speech will be held at a luncheon August 30th.

That very same evening, a session will be held titled, "Generations Rise: Elevating Muslim-American Culture," the same title as the conference's theme, where ISNA's outgoing President, Imam Mohamed Magid and four other Muslim speakers will offer ideas over Muslim-American advancement over the next five years. A "secret special guest" is also billed to appear, no indications are made whether that will be Carter or not.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/jimmy-carter-give-keynote-speech-muslim-convention-detroit

Now doesn't that just warm the cockles of your heart?

[Jingthing]

Another so called "truce" sort of happening (but it seems not so much):

Despite the Egyptian announcement of the cease-fire, red alert sirens continued to be heard in Israel's southern communities after 7 p.m. An Israeli civilian was killed by one of dozens of mortar shells fired at the Eshkol Regional Council just before the cease-fire was set to commence.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-sources-Gaza-cease-fire-to-be-announced-on-Tuesday-evening-372386

[Steely Dan]

Another so called "truce" sort of happening (but it seems not so much):

Despite the Egyptian announcement of the cease-fire, red alert sirens continued to be heard in Israel's southern communities after 7 p.m. An Israeli civilian was killed by one of dozens of mortar shells fired at the Eshkol Regional Council just before the cease-fire was set to commence.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-sources-Gaza-cease-fire-to-be-announced-on-Tuesday-evening-372386

Actually there is a chance this ceasefire may hold for a bit longer because moderate Islamists are taking the trouble to try and dissuade Hamas from accepting it.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4361.htm

Edited August 27, 2014 by Steely Dan

[Jingthing]

Yeah, Hamas is selling this as a "victory" and the people seem to be buying it ... so maybe things will halt for awhile.

But if Hamas does not demilitarize, the rockets will be back ... just a matter of WHEN.

"Victory" celebrations in Gaza:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=832032946839127

Edited August 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[jacky54]

If that's a victory then I'd hate to see a defeat, idiots.