Netanyahu declares 'victory' in Gaza

[Seastallion]

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

I wanted to address your point that everyone who expresses the opinion that there is a "massacre in gaza", should have equal weight. I respectfully disagree.

If this statement came from a group of Palestinians, then we could expect them to say something like this.

But it comes from Jewish people, and those whose history specifically the Zionists use to justify their actions. Therefore, it is on two counts that their contrary opinion is surprising and therefore should be looked at more seriously.

Imagine a group of 40 Palestinians who were around during the Nakba (Palestinian Holocaust), and raised $180K to run an advert in the Arab press, supporting Israel's use of force, would you not consider that to be something worth listening to, rather than Hamas?

You are absolutely right Joe, but you must consider that in the scenario you present, Hamas and their supporters would cry "Not valid! They are not real Muslims! Yadah yadah yadah"

[Ulysses G.]

The truth is that peace was a possibility in 1948 but Israel rejected it.

The truth is that the PALESTINIANS rejected it, declared war on Israel and LOST. Quit trying to distort historical facts.

You have a very selective memory, UG.

Its a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?ben-gurion-laments-rejection-of-1937-peel-commission

... all because of Zionist greed. When Zionists learn to love their Jewish brothers and sisters and their children more than land, then there will be peace.

The Arab side denounced the Peel Commission and outright rejected the offer. The Jewish side did not outright accept it as well, but the position was that it could be used as base for further negotiations.

Ben Guryon's position is not surprising, nor condemning at the least - he (along with Chaim Weitzmann) was actually in favor of accepting the offer, and as such convinced the Zionist Congress to adopt a less harsh stance.

Don't let facts confuse you, though.

He has posted this lie before and it was pointed out to him - with evidence - that the Jews did NOT reject it outright, but that the Arabs DID REJECT IT COMPLETELY. Why does he continue to post the same falsehoods over and over again?

[Thorgal]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

Flavius Josephus; Antiquities (of the Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

This is history, not biblical. He wrote from Rome, as a member of the House of Falvius. Therefore, whatever notes he has made must be seen in the light of historiography- likely true!

Any other questions?

How many Palestinians in Gaza are descendants from Jews ?

Genetic analasys suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the Southern Levant whose core may reach back to the prehistoric times.

A study of high resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslim Arabs belonged to the same chromosome pool.

Since the times of Muslim conquest in the 7th century, relogious conversions have resulted in Palestinians being predominantly Sunni Muslim by religious affiliation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestine Post. Hmmmm.

Another poster wanted proof that Israel was considered a Jewish state since it was founded and Jingthing provided it. In case you have not figured it out, The Jerusalem Post is a major newspaper and they are not making fake copies of their old editions. Please keep the ridiculous conspiracy theories to yourself.

[Jingthing]

Of course, Palestine Post.

Of British mandate Palestine (the next step after Ottoman rule of the greater region).

[loongdavid]

Forgive me for going back in history but as a descendant of a victim of the King David Hotel bombing in Jerusalem in 1946 by the Israeli Haganah, I could wish for nothing less than the total annihilation of the state of Israel. I have no sympathy for Hamas but they will of course win in the end.

Parachute Regiment

Utrinque Paratus

[up-country_sinclair]

The Palestine Post. Hmmmm.

Another poster wanted proof that Israel was considered a Jewish state since it was founded and Jingthing provided it. In case you have not figured it out, The Jerusalem Post is a major newspaper and they are not making fake copies of their old editions. Please keep the ridiculous conspiracy theories to yourself.

Nice try, but not nearly good enough.

No one is suggesting that any newspaper is making fake copies of old editions. Except you in your straw man argument.

What you conveniently chose to edit out of my post was this:

An English-language daily established in Jerusalem in 1932 as part of a Zionist-Jewish initiative.

Who would be surprised that a newspaper established as part of a "Zionist-Jewish initiative" would refer to Israel as a Jewish state.

However, to my knowledge Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" until Netanyahu introduced it quite recently so that he could derail the peace talks that would lead to a two state solution.

That was (and is) the point.

[Ulysses G.]

Who would be surprised that a newspaper established as part of a "Zionist-Jewish initiative" would refer to Israel as a Jewish state.

Do you think the fact that Israel was founded as a Jewish state, is a secret to anyone but you?

Check out the San Francisco Chronicle headline or are they "Zionists" too?

http://archive.adl.org/israel/record/creation.html

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

Who would be surprised that a newspaper established as part of a "Zionist-Jewish initiative" would refer to Israel as a Jewish state.

Do you think that was a secret to anyone but you?

Check out the San Francisco Chronicle headline or are they "Zionists" too?

http://archive.adl.org/israel/record/creation.html

Yes, I've seen the headline, but you're not addressing the salient point:

(To my knowledge) Israel NEVER demanded that the Arabs on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" until Netanyahu introduced it quite recently so that he could derail the peace talks that would lead to a two state solution.

Edited August 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Naam]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

you are dodging JT and trying to divert. i think you can do better... perhaps by arguing that HE HIMself issued the chanote for the homeland after he led the chosen people out of Egypt?

by the way, you selected the "dark hole". JoePublic just added his justified comment.

[Steely Dan]

The truth is that peace was a possibility in 1948 but Israel rejected it.

The truth is that the PALESTINIANS rejected it, declared war on Israel and LOST. Quit trying to distort historical facts.

You have a very selective memory, UG.

It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?ben-gurion-laments-rejection-of-1937-peel-commission

... all because of Zionist greed. When Zionists learn to love their Jewish brothers and sisters and their children more than land, then there will be peace.

The Arab side denounced the Peel Commission and outright rejected the offer. The Jewish side did not outright accept it as well, but the position was that it could be used as base for further negotiations.

Ben Guryon's position is not surprising, nor condemning at the least - he (along with Chaim Weitzmann) was actually in favor of accepting the offer, and as such convinced the Zionist Congress to adopt a less harsh stance.

Don't let facts confuse you, though.

If you get the feeling of déjà vu that's because your explanation has already been given by me on another recent thread. But as we know the Israel haters are not interested in the truth but keep recycling the same lies. Don't you boys have any new original lies to play with?

[Ulysses G.]

Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"

Unlike the Palestinians, Egypt and Jordan did not claim all of Israel as their own They did not insist that in recognizing Israel, they were being forced to cede 78 percent of their homeland, nor did they entertain hopes of return of their populations to Israel itself. It is a very different situation.

With Egypt and Jordan, the conflict was over the occupied territories of 1967. With the Palestinians it is still over 1948. The Palestinians need to recognize Israel as it truly is, before there can be permanent peace.

[dexterm]

Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"

With Egypt and Jordan, the conflict was over the occupied territories of 1967. With the Palestinians it is still over 1948. The Palestinians need to recognize Israel as it truly is, before there can be permanent peace.

Dishonest nonsense! The PA and all Arab countries have agreed to recognize Israel within its 1967 borders. But will Israel do likewise for a Palestinian state.?

The greedy Zionists get to keep Palestinian land stolen in 1948 that wasn't part of partition...that's quite a compromise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Edited August 29, 2014 by dexterm

[up-country_sinclair]

It is a very different situation.

OK, let's assume that's true and focus specifically on the Palestinians.

Why did Israel NEVER demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel a "Jewish state" until the precise moment when the Unity Government (both Fatah and Hamas) indicated they were willing to recognize the existence of an Israeli state?

This was always the claim: Palestinians (including Hamas) must recognize Israel's right to exist before there can be peace. Israel was on the cusp of getting exactly what they claimed they needed, but then why did Netanyahu suddenly decide to move the goalposts at this time?

Allow me to offer assistance: It was because Netanyahu wanted to derail the peace talks that would lead to a two state solution which he opposes.

Some just can't bring themselves to admit the above sentence is true it because it provides evidence that Israel and Netanyahu are the true obstacles to peace in the region.

Edited August 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[arjunadawn]

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

This whole "Israel as a Jewish state" thing was a craftily calculated move by Netanyahu designed to derail talks on the two state solution. Netanyahu does not believe in the two state solution and does not want peace. On this there is no doubt.

Israel as a Jewish state was crafted by a current PM? Really? You realize we have access to history books?

Yes, really.

During recent negotiations, Netanyahu suddenly declared that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state. With peace within reach, he out of the blue made this demand knowing full well it would derail further negotiations.

You say you have access to history books. Do you have access to newspapers or the Internet?

I'm not so sure the requirement for being recognized as a Jewish state is particularly new. I can dig around but my recall suggests it's not. But it should hardly matter, unless of course what's good for goose is not for the gander. After all, aren't there numerous "Muslim" states? Why would this requirement be so unnerving? Why would this requirement be so... problematic? Why is a Jewish state so troublesome in order to make peace with those who's declared authority are the Koran and his prophet. Seems like so much duplicity cloaked.

[simple1]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

you are dodging JT and trying to divert. i think you can do better... perhaps by arguing that HE HIMself issued the chanote for the homeland after he led the chosen people out of Egypt?

by the way, you selected the "dark hole". JoePublic just added his justified comment.

History of the occupation of the Promised Land sourced from the Jewish Virtual Library

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebcanaan.html

[arjunadawn]

As I posted earlier, this crafty plan by Netanyahu to suddenly demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state was designed for no other reason than to derail the peace talks.

There are many obstacles to the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians. As if the issues of security, borders and natural resources were not already complicated, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has demanded that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. For many, the demand is a non-starter, designed to derail the negotiations.

http://mepc.org/articles-commentary/commentary/netanyahu-and-jewish-state?print

Israel's New 'Jewish State' Threatens To Derail Peace Talks Palestinians Suggest Netanyahu Seeks To Avoid Signing Deal

http://forward.com/articles/193862/israels-new-jewish-state-threatens-to-derail-peace/?p=all#ixzz3BmE28VFv

I have read your links... and do see your point. Why would something seemingly so fundamental seem to inject itself at... Well no, they weren't on the border of a deal. But why would something like this eject itself now? Perhaps your correct. Perhaps it was am attempt to postpone a process that Israel felt was going badly. I don't know. I've no intention of defending what I cannot. Yet my previous point exists; why not? Why do Muslims have the sole wherewithal to declare Islamic states? Considering the nature of the charter of those who Israel is dealing with in Gaza is it so outrageous that Israel to, then, wants the same recognition- to exist as an entity of like minding people, worshiping their god as they sit fit, or as revealed by their prophets?

Israel always demanded to be recognized as a state that has a right to exist. This underlying point is hardly new. It is the case that even that has been a sticking point. WhT your links suggest is that this has been polished to expressly define that state which should have a right to exist as Jewish. Ok. One can anguish that this seems last minute dubious on Israel's part but can a person also assert that they ask too much? Really? In that neighborhood? I hardly think so.

Edited August 29, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Jingthing]

It's linked to the Arab demand for unlimited right of return to Israel. Israel no can do and stay Israel.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Seastallion]

We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. On the other side ... big problems too, Gaza ruled by a Hamas that is transparently interested in winning ALL of Israel away from the Jews. WHY are most Israelis OK with a status quo and no real two state solution? Before the usual greedy Zionists / land grabber memes consider a more fundamental reason ... yes most Israelis are already comfortable enough with the status quo but also FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. So if Israelis are afraid of that and want to prevent that, don't be too surprised or judgmental. Unless you think national suicide is an admirable trait. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution because that's probably the best or even only hope. Being a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself is not the same thing as supporting every Israeli government policy or politician.

Does the current conflict in Gaza just sort of put on hold move things closer to a two state solution? It doesn't appear so but some hope is being expressed that Israel now has more (though closeted) allies in the Arab world in opposition to terrorist Hamas, there might just be an opportunity from this.

Firstly JT, a sincere bravo from me. You do appear to be moderating your stance in the face of considerable pressure. Lesser men will remain pig-headededly stubborn.

I will thus refrain from petty "point scoring" and address you as a fellow debater. You deserve that now. (We all should, but of course emotions win us over).

Let me address your first 2 sentences; " We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. " . Yes we, at least you and I, do agree there. Why is that reasoning any different from "We agree Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. They're ideologists and reflect their ideologies"?

Can you deny (Strike that. See, I'm trying to revise my language) How do you feel about the idea that the "greedy Zionist land grabber memes" have foundation, in the face of how the borders have changed in Israel's favour several times since 1948, in light of the documented visions and statements of the leaders of the Zionist Movement, by the fact of the settlements, the evictions of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, etc (and that's quite an etc)? Surely anyone observing could be forgiven for thinking that the Zionist Movement is trying to expand the land of the state of Israel as established in 1948, and expanding it by quite violent and forceful means. How do you feel about it in light of our agreed opinion that Netanyahu does not want a 2 state solution?

[Ulysses G.]

Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"

With Egypt and Jordan, the conflict was over the occupied territories of 1967. With the Palestinians it is still over 1948. The Palestinians need to recognize Israel as it truly is, before there can be permanent peace.

The PA and all Arab countries have agreed to recognize Israel within its 1967 borders.

More of your usual dishonesty. Hamas refuses to and it can not be done without them. The other parties can pretend all they want as there is no deal without Hamas and everyone knows it.

[arjunadawn]

Flavius Josephus; Antiquities (of the Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

I have a question.

I know you must have read this book, please point out the parts that gives the Jews a claim to the land that would stand up in an international court of law.

Actually, I have read this book long who in the context of the Star Prophecy research. However, the utter nonsense that you can employ me make an argument for you, or failing that validate your point, is so playgroundish. Do you expect a man to research international jurisprudence with a particular niche in right of return or ancestral claims, compare and contrast, and offer that argument in return to appease you? Failing that, what? Some point is made by you?

But if I had to guess my first place would be to look at similarly situated people, not returning, but primary claim? That is what you reference. I'd look to aborigines and Native American Indians. No other surviving peoples predate the Jews in this area or otherwise make no claim. Indeed, even the Arabs made no claim to this land until the past century. This land was mixed indigenous until the Arab hoards invaded approx 637 CE.

As I have posted elsewhere, even the Muslims conceded this land to be the Jews 1400 years ago in scripture. The Romans knew this backwater to belong to the Jews 2000 years ago; the Greeks, 2300 years ago; the Babylonians, 2600 years ago. To suggest otherwise requires a suspension of reality.

Edit: problems with quotes.

Edited August 29, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[up-country_sinclair]

It is a very different situation.

OK, let's assume that's true and focus specifically on the Palestinians.

Why did Israel NEVER demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel a "Jewish state" until the precise moment when the Unity Government (both Fatah and Hamas) indicated they were willing to recognize the existence of an Israeli state?

This was always the claim: Palestinians (including Hamas) must recognize Israel's right to exist before there can be peace. Israel was on the cusp of getting exactly what they claimed they needed, but then why did Netanyahu suddenly decide to move the goalposts at this time?

Allow me to offer assistance: It was because Netanyahu wanted to derail the peace talks that would lead to a two state solution which he opposes.

Some just can't bring themselves to admit the above sentence is true it because it provides evidence that Israel and Netanyahu are the true obstacles to peace in the region.

I genuinely welcome anyone to provide an opposing viewpoint to the answer I provided to the question above, because it is directly related to how peace moves forward and all sides can declare a true victory over the ceaseless slaughter of innocent children.

Edited August 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Morch]

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

I wanted to address your point that everyone who expresses the opinion that there is a "massacre in gaza", should have equal weight. I respectfully disagree.

If this statement came from a group of Palestinians, then we could expect them to say something like this.

But it comes from Jewish people, and those whose history specifically the Zionists use to justify their actions. Therefore, it is on two counts that their contrary opinion is surprising and therefore should be looked at more seriously.

Imagine a group of 40 Palestinians who were around during the Nakba (Palestinian Holocaust), and raised $180K to run an advert in the Arab press, supporting Israel's use of force, would you not consider that to be something worth listening to, rather than Hamas?

If anything, the analogy should have been 40 Palestinian who were around during the Nakba and put an advert deploring the

Hamas's violent ways. Never seen either example, however.

[arjunadawn]

I don't doubt everyone's DNA is mixed; or a lot anyway.

Edited August 29, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Ulysses G.]

Why did Israel NEVER demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel a "Jewish state" until the precise moment when the Unity Government (both Fatah and Hamas) indicated they were willing to recognize the existence of an Israeli state?

Probably because it is not true. The State of Israel was founded as a Jewish state, its identity as the nation-state of the Jews was its reason for existence. As part of peace negotiations, a number of Israeli administrations have demanded to be recognized as such by their Arab neighbors.

The 2003 "Road Map" peace proposal by the USA, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations was accepted by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, with appended reservations, the sixth of which said:

"In connection to both the introductory statements and the final settlement, declared references must be made to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and to the waiver of any right of return for Palestinian refugees to the State of Israel."

There are numerous other examples like this. Claiming that this was a ploy by Netanyahu to avoid negotiating with the Palestinians is a deceitful talking point as well as complete nonsense.,

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. On the other side ... big problems too, Gaza ruled by a Hamas that is transparently interested in winning ALL of Israel away from the Jews. WHY are most Israelis OK with a status quo and no real two state solution? Before the usual greedy Zionists / land grabber memes consider a more fundamental reason ... yes most Israelis are already comfortable enough with the status quo but also FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. So if Israelis are afraid of that and want to prevent that, don't be too surprised or judgmental. Unless you think national suicide is an admirable trait. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution because that's probably the best or even only hope. Being a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself is not the same thing as supporting every Israeli government policy or politician.

Does the current conflict in Gaza just sort of put on hold move things closer to a two state solution? It doesn't appear so but some hope is being expressed that Israel now has more (though closeted) allies in the Arab world in opposition to terrorist Hamas, there might just be an opportunity from this.

Most of your post is spot on.

The part were we differ is the Israeli fear aspect. Most Israelis do not exactly fear a Palestinian state being able to do destroy

Israel, at least not for quite a while (probably under the assumption that a Palestinian state would be, in one way or another

at least partially demilitarized). The security apprehension is more to do with having more of the same (rocket/mortar fire and

suicide bombers), with more parts of Israel open wide to attack, and as an additional element - possible easier access for

outside elements (such as Iran, AQ, IS). I think it is therefore easier to solve, relative to other issues which will certainly come

up.

There are, of course, Israelis which would resist any compromise, either due to excessive fears, distrust of Palestinians, and

religious world view. Some of these issues can be addressed given satisfactory assurances and time, some cannot. While I'm

doubtful that Netanyahu got it in himself to make such a bold move, he will not be around forever (and even the last elections

were a close thing). A peace agreement does not require a unanimous decision, just a sizable enough of a majority to carry it

through and sustain it. After something is done, unless there are serious complications, things tend to sort themselves out.

[Morch]

Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"

With Egypt and Jordan, the conflict was over the occupied territories of 1967. With the Palestinians it is still over 1948. The Palestinians need to recognize Israel as it truly is, before there can be permanent peace.

Dishonest nonsense! The PA and all Arab countries have agreed to recognize Israel within its 1967 borders. But will Israel do likewise for a Palestinian state.?

The greedy Zionists get to keep Palestinian land stolen in 1948 that wasn't part of partition...that's quite a compromise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Hamas, which commands the support of at least half of the Palestinians rejected the initiative and carried out one of its

biggest terrorist attacks as it was announced. Lebanon was not then, and is not now, in any condition to uphold any sort

of agreement. Currently this is true also for Syria and Iraq.

The 1948 war was not initiated by Israel, a point which is often overlooked by you and others. The Arabs did not even accept

the partition resolution. The land was not "stolen", it was won in a war.

[CBR250]

Post edited to indicate points of contention:

1. .... FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

2. A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. ...

3. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution .....

1. Where is the evidence that Palestinians want to mass murder Jews? Just to help you along - Hamas is not Palestine. Fatah is not even Palestine.

2. You are, honestly, worried about a "powerful Palestinian state"? Fat chance of that while Israel has crushed Palestine economically for decades. And I will have to conclude that your paranoia is taking over again unless you can direct me to a statement from the Palestine Authority - or Fatah - that they aim to "win all of Jewish Israel".

3. Palestine has offered and still offers recognition of a right to exist of Israel. As recently as June this year. Wake up.

4. Netanyahu is the leader of Israel. More importantly, there are fellow sociopathic politicians just as nefarious as he who are ready to take his place should he fall under bus. And I am impressed that you are one of the minority of Israelis who is "working for a 2 state solution". All you have to do is to convince the land thieves to take the option seriously, and not keep using it as a diversion for ever more colonial activities.

[boomerangutang]

please point out the parts that gives the Jews a claim to the land that would stand up in an international court of law.

Hey JP, you're sounding shrill. You could look closely at most countries in the world and there wouldn't be an agreed-upon declaration of which proves their existence. Would you like a list?

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank. That's the sort of action the Assyrians and Babylonians would have taken, but these are modern times, and things are different ....aren't they? People are now supposed to be able to discuss issues, instead of tossing bombs. Not much has changed since people showed up in the M.East and cut down all the trees and banished all fauna bigger than rats.