Aliens, are they leaving?,if so why?

[mamborobert]

Is the overall farang population reducing or are people just moving about a lot.

May sound silly but people do move here for different push pull factors, noisy soi dogs verses cheaper rent in better area.

I think we can all generally agree that there is a glut of accommodation in CM.

A few years ago no one would have suggested that you could get a good place for less than a 12 months lease....whereas looking today for a friend I see that there are quite a few agents and owners already offering 3 month terms with not that much of an increase over an annual.

[Robert24]

The answer to your question is yes. I was just having this conversation recently with people I have known here for over 20 years and it is quite noticeable. I have an attorney friend with a large law firm here that has been commenting on how many companies he has been winding up in the last year. I was astounded at the numbers and they are not just small firms but some very large ones. He explained in his case much of it stemmed all the way back to the floods several years back and that companies take time to come to such decisions and take action on them. When large companies move their subcontractors usually follow suit. It seems we are seeing the result of that only now. Add to this the political, govt and economic situation recently which has exacerbated that even further. I myself am considering moving back to Indonesia where I used to work years ago as the prospects in Thailand are not that good any longer. Most people I have known for decades concur that the attitudes here have changed for the worse generally. In fact, we are in favor of the coup and what it is accomplishing but, believe it may be a case of too little too late. Many Thai based foreign companies are relocating to other countries in the region where better policies toward foreign workers, access to local finance, cheaper overall costs and generally a better attitude to foreign owned companies and their expat employees exist.

I think you make a very good point. ASEAN has become way more competitive and many companies have moved their factories to Vietnam, Indonesia, some even to Laos where labour cost is a lot lower. However there are some other issues involved with those other countries such as supply chain, infrastructure etc that is not as easily available as in Thailand. And this is really important for the economy of Thailand and it's GDP growth. But I'm sure the current government is fully aware of this and are focussing on making sure Thailand stays competitive which is very difficult.

But to be honest, this has little to do with the Op's point that he thinks that the foreigner population in the Chiang Mai province is shrinking. There is no meaningful industry with factories/production in the Chiang Mai province to begin with. And even if there were, they wouldn't employ thousands of Westerners. The Westerner population in Chiang Mai province is mainly consistent of retirees, younger people on ED visas, some teachers and maybe some long term tourists. I don't think the amount of foreign or domestic investment in production factories would have an impact on the population of Westerners in Chiang Mai.

[onthedarkside]

A number of off topic side conversation posts have been removed.

[watcharacters]

People are leaving, yes, thats a fact. Because, the Thai people are getting to greedy. They are never satisfied. They want more, and, more, and more.

I lived in Thailand, Bangkok, Chang Mai, and Hua Hin for almost 9 years. It used to be a cheap, enjoyable place to live.

Not any more. !! They dont even say thank you in shops any more, and the ladies who work in the bars hovering around you when you have paid your bill, waiting for a tip, is annoying. And, when you do tip, again, no thank you, they just walk away, as if thats what your suppose to do, and they are entitled to it.

I moved to The Philippines 6 Months ago, and I will never return to Rip off Thailand, I just wish I had moved here years ago.

A couple of long standing friends of mine, to name 2, have also left to go to Vietnam and Cambodia. I used to love Thailand and the people. I am sad to say, that I, for one, will not stay where, A. Im not wanted and B. to be ripped off.

Good luck Thailand, your going to need it.

The people in the Philippines are wonderful but The country lacks big time. I take my hat off to you to manage with the lack of a decent infrastructure and the general overall poverty.

I lived there for several years. I don't have any plans to even visit the PI again.

[cardinalblue]

My guess is there is a net gain of foreigners moving to CM. But if one looks at it by race or nationality could be interesting numbers. me thinks an influx of asians but Farangs would show a net decrease...

CM is turning into a big city from a big town atmosphere and this will attract some folks but be a negative for others....I don;t think a big draw for farang retirees if development continues to go unabated...

CB

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Take one look at the immigration office, compare with 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and tell me again that people are leaving.

At least 3/4 the foreigners I knew in CM never used CM immigration.

Now they all do (those that haven't left).

Koreans didn't need to.

Burmese were all illegals.

Many white boarder runners.

90 day reports previously posted in.

Foreigners in CM aren't just elderly white men.

Edited August 30, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ And yet the immigration waiting room is stuffed full, with elderly white men being a prominent demographic in there. (Not that this matters; the topic is 'aliens', as per the title.)

Edited August 30, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Tywais]

And more off topic posts removed.

[pgrahmm]

i might have been in the same area given the clues but we moved to a different house so our house might have been one.... however, I saw vacancies spring up that were all Russians that were a recent influx - within the past 1 1/2 years.....young - with no schedule and no type of work that others around the area could see.....kept to themselves and sometimes loudish music at all times of the day (sound carries).....the women were very pretty and liked to bask by the pool.....one older couple seemed to be the "boss" and it was not unusual for some of them to go away for a couple of days - by the intervals I thought visa runs.......they seemed to be organised in many ways......it's possible they were making a push towards CM (a couple of neighbors had some very interesting theories on this) and the visa restrictions seemed to shut them down - they're gone now.....

Some of the missionaries are on furlough for many months now - others back on speaking tours throughout the US while others are back for a year of teaching and/or classes......a few folks that I know decided to teach in China thinking better opportunities......

I think it's partly the normal ebb and flow and partly visa concerns for the fringers cheating/taking advantage of the system for good or for ill intent.....

[Ridercnx808]

Ive been to literally every moo ban on 121 and the inner ring within the past month, and there isnt an abundance of leftover rentals.

The only moo ban I can see as having problems is 'Home in park' lots of speculation and overpriced homes there, ridiculously overpriced.

[Greg Nixon]

In this little village of 2000 homes near Mukdahan only I have lasted 3 years. But so long to bad rubbish. These people called " farang " have been mostly sex tourists. There was a pig farmer who wondered around totally drunk and all but naked. There was an elderly gentleman who was likely a pimp. There were a few others who turned up for a week or two, had sex and left. So I believe those leaving Thailand leave the country much better off.

[northernjohn]

People are leaving, yes, thats a fact. Because, the Thai people are getting to greedy. They are never satisfied. They want more, and, more, and more.

I lived in Thailand, Bangkok, Chang Mai, and Hua Hin for almost 9 years. It used to be a cheap, enjoyable place to live.

Not any more. !! They dont even say thank you in shops any more, and the ladies who work in the bars hovering around you when you have paid your bill, waiting for a tip, is annoying. And, when you do tip, again, no thank you, they just walk away, as if thats what your suppose to do, and they are entitled to it.

I moved to The Philippines 6 Months ago, and I will never return to Rip off Thailand, I just wish I had moved here years ago.

A couple of long standing friends of mine, to name 2, have also left to go to Vietnam and Cambodia. I used to love Thailand and the people. I am sad to say, that I, for one, will not stay where, A. Im not wanted and B. to be ripped off.

Good luck Thailand, your going to need it.

The people in the Philippines are wonderful but The country lacks big time. I take my hat off to you to manage with the lack of a decent infrastructure and the general overall poverty.

I lived there for several years. I don't have any plans to even visit the PI again.

His post say's

People are leaving, yes, thats a fact. Because, the Thai people are getting to greedy. They are never satisfied. They want more, and, more, and more.

I wonder if he does not want any more money himself? It is human nature and he will eventually see it in the Philippines.

I noticed he pointed out he had lived in three of the most popular tourist areas in Thailand. Also that he referred to the bars as his reference for the way the service is here in Thailand.

In short he is in no position to judge Thailand. Just the three places he chose to live and the bars in them.

Sadly the service he talks about is changing as the westerners move in to the area and bring their customs with them. The Thais just adjust to what you bring with you. Myself I will leave a tip but hardly ever over 20 baht and that is on a meal over 100 baht. Road side carts leave the coin.

I was talking with a friend who had just returned from a visit in Canada. He said that there they were starting to expect 20% for a tip.

[northernjohn]

Take one look at the immigration office, compare with 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and tell me again that people are leaving.

At least 3/4 the foreigners I knew in CM never used CM immigration.

Now they all do (those that haven't left).

Koreans didn't need to.

Burmese were all illegals.

Many white boarder runners.

90 day reports previously posted in.

Foreigners in CM aren't just elderly white men.

Are the Koreans the only nationality that does not have to report to immigration when they are permanent residents?

What makes them special?

[n210mp]

Take one look at the immigration office, compare with 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and tell me again that people are leaving.

I can see where you are coming from in your post but I cannot really believe that your conclusion is anything but subjective or simply your opinion from what you perceive . (nothing wrong in that)

I can visit the Jomtien immigration office on certain times of the day, week, month and will notice that yes sometimes it is teeming and overflowing but at other times it is very quiet.

Just as an aside and my memory could be playing tricks here , didn't the Thai Immigration centralise some of their offices and close down certain offices?

In Pattaya there is a distinct feeling of emptiness where the numbers of Ex Pats other than those who are retired here or off shore workers are concerned, maybe in other provinces this is not the case but Pattaya IMHO used to be the "Gateway" for right of entry, if you get my drift and if the numbers are not here now and they havnt been here for a long, long time, surely it is only a matter of time that this "emptiness" will be seen and felt by all those provinces where Ex Pats tended to retire or choose to go to live in?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Are the Koreans the only nationality that does not have to report to immigration when they are permanent residents?

What makes them special?

They get 90 days visa waiver on entry, 4 boarder runs and they're here for a year.

There were loads of the living in CM on that basis.

Until now.

[Konini]

Used by Immigration in the USA and the Philippines, and seems to be used here a lot.

I've seen Immigration in other countries use terms such as 'Buitenlanders', Non-British, 'Foreigners'

Maybe you could enlighten us as to who else uses this non-Martian term.

We left England in 1987 for a life Down Under, and right up until we left there were lanes at immigration for "British" and "Aliens". Perhaps this has changed now with the free movement and EU passports, can't remember, but certainly up until 1987 the British government used it. I remember finding it giggly and silly the first time I went abroad as a teenager - it was a school trip and I think the majority of us were doing strange walks and doing Dalek and Clanger's voices at the airport.

[mamborobert]

Used by Immigration in the USA and the Philippines, and seems to be used here a lot.

I've seen Immigration in other countries use terms such as 'Buitenlanders', Non-British, 'Foreigners'

Maybe you could enlighten us as to who else uses this non-Martian term.

We left England in 1987 for a life Down Under, and right up until we left there were lanes at immigration for "British" and "Aliens". Perhaps this has changed now with the free movement and EU passports, can't remember, but certainly up until 1987 the British government used it. I remember finding it giggly and silly the first time I went abroad as a teenager - it was a school trip and I think the majority of us were doing strange walks and doing Dalek and Clanger's voices at the airport.

We digress but there is a slight change only......Commonwealth nationals like Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans and the like get to queue up for eons as Aliens whereas England's traditional allies Germany and Italy get express processing in the EU lane.

[Konini]

The answer to your question is yes. I was just having this conversation recently with people I have known here for over 20 years and it is quite noticeable. I have an attorney friend with a large law firm here that has been commenting on how many companies he has been winding up in the last year. I was astounded at the numbers and they are not just small firms but some very large ones. He explained in his case much of it stemmed all the way back to the floods several years back and that companies take time to come to such decisions and take action on them. When large companies move their subcontractors usually follow suit. It seems we are seeing the result of that only now. Add to this the political, govt and economic situation recently which has exacerbated that even further. I myself am considering moving back to Indonesia where I used to work years ago as the prospects in Thailand are not that good any longer. Most people I have known for decades concur that the attitudes here have changed for the worse generally. In fact, we are in favor of the coup and what it is accomplishing but, believe it may be a case of too little too late. Many Thai based foreign companies are relocating to other countries in the region where better policies toward foreign workers, access to local finance, cheaper overall costs and generally a better attitude to foreign owned companies and their expat employees exist.

I don't doubt you were told those things, personally I don't believe them, especially the last sentance.

I agree with you on that last sentence. International firms seen to have no problems getting work visa's sorted out if they need to bring in people from overseas, and depending on what the company is, they may be better off based here for several reasons. Oil, Gas and shrimping for the obvious reason of the locations of where the shrimps, oil and gas is, less government corruption than other regional countries with the exception of Malaysia and Singapore (not saying it doesn't exist there, just not so bad as the Thailand), if they are going to be selling their manufactured goods to consumers in Thailand, cheaper transportation costs and having their logistics based at the factory would outweigh a lot of other things, and selling manufactured goods to a lot of governments around the world is conditional on a local workforce being used, or at the very least you'd get priority when it came to the tender process if you were based here employing people and paying local taxes.

[Konini]

I'm getting the hell outta dodge and moving to the Dominican Republic. Damn shame, I've got my retirement visa solidly squared away, just renewed my 1st 5-year driver's licence for another 5 years (BOTH car and motorbike), have been faithful to the gym (6 days a week) and really could enjoy the rest of my life here in LOS. My little inner voice is SCREAMING to get out of Thailand asap after seeing recent statements made the new PM. They want to kill happy hour? Get rid of the cute girls on walking street holding placards advertising 60 baht draft? Put out new visa regulations with no apparent thought given to the repercussions? AND - - - I won't post ANYTHING more than generic ideas for fear that it be taken the wrong way by the new leadership and I take a lengthy vacation to the grey-bar hotel.

The recent ramping up of internet monitoring in Thailand has me uncomfortable. Big brother is heavily breathing down my neck here. Facebook was partially blocked during the coup as a test case to see what control this government has, and several innocent searches (Google "Adam Pickles" and see how many reports can't be viewed) make me wonder if the BIB will come knockin' at my door.

The hubris displayed by EVERY Thai in charge is hurting the country. Thailand spends more on education than ANY other country on this planet (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/695289-thailands-educational-spending-highest-in-the-world/) yet is close to the bottom for overall education and dead last place for speaking English. I worked for the largest private school system in Thailand and saw first-hand what everyone reading this knows - you cannot fail a Thai student. I personally had to give a passing grade for one student because he put his name on the test paper. That was it, no answers given, just his name (which he actually misspelled!!!). This 2013 report from Ajarn: "Education Minister Phongthep Thepkanjana admits that the Thai education system is unsatisfactory and behind other countries in the ASEAN region. To tackle the problem, the ministry has drawn up some measures to restructure the system." Yet no one will directly face the problem because no one wants to lose face. And this is just one example of many problems facing the entire social structure.

GAWD HELP YOU if you do an overstay! Up to 20k baht and possible jail time? Dominican Republic tourist visa - $25 US. Up to one year overstay - $75 US. And you can turn right around and do it again. No threat of incarceration, no "bad stamp" in your passport, they're glad to see you come back.

Yup - Me and my retirement dollars are outta here!!!

Ah, the ramping up of internet monitoring. Do the acronyms NSA or GCHQ mean anything to you? The US and UK have always had internet and phone monitoring of a level most developing countries like Thailand would love to have, if only they had the technological abilities. It will not come as a surprise if in the next few years a local version of Julian Assange or Edward Snowdon pops up in every other western country in the world informing their fellow citizens just how much their government has been spying on their internet usage. Nobody in the US believed the NSA was doing it until Edward Snowdon went public. Us Brits probably all have a good idea that GCHQ would be listening in to internet traffic just as it has always listened in to phone calls for key words that would lead to a bit of attention, although if they are doing what the NSA was caught doing we don't know about it. Yet.

They are talking about killing happy hour to stop the poorer Thai's drinking so much, not to inconvenience farangs who will miss the cute girls spruiking them in the prostitute capital of Thailand.

Hubris isn't displayed by all Thai's, but I do agree with you on the standard and methods of education, particularly on not failing students.

On your final point, I stand to be corrected, but if you were to overstay a tourist visa in Australia or UK, I don't think you'd be able to successfully apply for another. I could be wrong, but a Malaysian friend who overstayed for a few months in England has applied several times since and been rejected (could be some other reason, of course).

[zippydedodah]

Ive been to literally every moo ban on 121 and the inner ring within the past month, and there isnt an abundance of leftover rentals.

The only moo ban I can see as having problems is 'Home in park' lots of speculation and overpriced homes there, ridiculously overpriced.

hmmm... well, i live in siriporn 2 and i see around 15% vacancy rate in the homes here.... at least that much over in my old mooban of Pimuk 2 and i can only guess, but looks like same or even more in Pimuk 1.... while i don't think the jump in total numbers is much more than usual (meaning probably always been 10-12% vacancy rates), what I do see are slightly lower rents on the average... but still, all in all, LOTS of empty homes.

I won't even hazard a guess as to why there might be more homes empty, it is a bit surprising to see lower prices... Thais are notorious for sticking to their guns when it comes to pricing...

[Ridercnx808]

Ive been to literally every moo ban on 121 and the inner ring within the past month, and there isnt an abundance of leftover rentals.

The only moo ban I can see as having problems is 'Home in park' lots of speculation and overpriced homes there, ridiculously overpriced.

hmmm... well, i live in siriporn 2 and i see around 15% vacancy rate in the homes here.... at least that much over in my old mooban of Pimuk 2 and i can only guess, but looks like same or even more in Pimuk 1.... while i don't think the jump in total numbers is much more than usual (meaning probably always been 10-12% vacancy rates), what I do see are slightly lower rents on the average... but still, all in all, LOTS of empty homes.

I won't even hazard a guess as to why there might be more homes empty, it is a bit surprising to see lower prices... Thais are notorious for sticking to their guns when it comes to pricing...

I saw nothing around 15% vacancy rates anywhere. That means houses with signs.

[Konini]

Your post is completely illogical and unrepresentative of most of those like me who can find easy fault in the Thai bureaucratic logic when it comes to the Thai idea of fairness and reciprocity.

Firstly I didn't marry a Turk or a Japanese person, I married a Thai lady so the ease of integration in those Countries becomes irrelevant like you post!

I certainly in any event wouldn't want to reside in a Muslim Country ( least said soonest mended)

As far as Japan is concerned not sure whether they are on an even mental keel ( I am old enough to remember the last war and still find it hard to forgive them for their atrocities.

You only have to watch some of their TV games to wonder just what it is that makes them tick or more important turns them On, they seem to have a built in sense of sadism.

<SNIP>

We (The Ex Pats) bring money, expertise and support to a community that does nothing (Generally) but attempts to suck the life blood out of us one way or another in their attempts at getting as much money out of us as possible.

Indeed it is a national sport or havnt you noticed?

The only thing that pacifies me is that they are (the typical Thai community) the same with each other and attempt to get the best advantage from any situation , lies being a Nationally accepted way of resolving situations

Seems like you have been well brainwashed if you try to justify their draconian and unjust racist rules on the laws applied to the spouses of Thai people.

Four points, in bold, I'll address one by one.

1 & 2

Very racist statements. My grandfather was a coal miner so exempt from conscription but my husband's grandfather spent 5 years in prisoner of war camps - he escaped twice and when recaptured the second time he was moved to a high security one in Italy. He doesn't hate the Germans or Italians. I lived in Australia for 20 years, working for 13 of those at a non-profit organisation which had hundreds of volunteers. It was a computer group and the volunteers were mostly retired professionals. I had my group of a couple of dozen special ones who came into the office for a morning or an afternoon once every week or second week. They had all been in the army, some had been sent straight to Europe but most had been in PNG and Malaya in the early part of the war. Not one of those men, not even the one who had been in Changi for most of his war service, hated the Japanese. Not one. They had come back from the war, gone to Uni and got on with life, some rising very high in their chosen professions, and those who had gone to very senior management travelled on business between Melbourne and Tokyo on a very regular basis (one of them twice a month), negotiating deals, drawing plans, doing whatever they did with the Japanese who had been their enemy during the war. My husband's grandad, despite not hating the Germans, never once spoke about what happened to him; from the day he returned until the day he died the subject was off limits and being from a mining family myself with no great uncles who had been in the war, I had no experience of talking to people who had gone away to fight. I had read about the things the Japanese did during the war, and was genuinely surprised that these men didn't passionately hate the Japanese and had forgiven them for the atrocities they carried out on them. You say you are old enough to remember the last war, not that you fought in the last war. Those that fought, even those held in Changi, forgave. But you can't? Saying the Japanese are not on a even mental keel is a racist statement.

3

Bargirls suck the lifeblood out of their victims, that's what they're there for but Thai's in general don't. In all tourist area's in every country around the world there are dodgy taxi drivers and stall-holders on tourist markets ripping off naive tourists. I don't like Thai food, cooking is my hobby so I cook every day. I go to local markets for meat, fruit, vegetables and fish and I do the rest of my shopping at Tesco for run of the mill stuff and Rimping or Central Festival for imported food. I go to the shopping malls when I need new clothes or anything else and I walk or take yellow songtoews. I don't ask the price, I know it's 10 baht from Rimping Condo to the bus station who's name I have forgotten and 10 baht from the bus station to Airport Plaza. If I go as far as Tesco, Big C or Makro, I give them 20 baht. I know I don't have to,nine times out of ten they say 'No, no, sip bat'. but when I change songtoew at the bus station I ask for Hang Dong, wait in the shade until the engine starts then ask if it's OK for me to sit in the front so I have an open window or aircon. Rarely, when someone has beaten me to the passenger seat, I sit in the back, but it's still a long way and well worth 20 baht. I'm happy to pay it Occasionally if I've gone to airport Plaza a bit later in the day and the yellow songteow's have stopped running a red songteow driver will try it on a bit, 100 (me smile) 80 (me smile) 60 (me smile). I say 'Plaza to pratu cheingmai (Chiang Mai Gate) sow baht, pratu cheingmai Rimping Condo sow baht, so ha sip baht ka' and it is almost always accepted. An odd few are greedy and won't do it, but most will. Most Thai's do not rip you off. Most Thai's are there to make an honest living. They are certainly not sucking the lifeblood out of us.

4

Pot. Kettle.

[northernjohn]

Ive been to literally every moo ban on 121 and the inner ring within the past month, and there isnt an abundance of leftover rentals.

The only moo ban I can see as having problems is 'Home in park' lots of speculation and overpriced homes there, ridiculously overpriced.

hmmm... well, i live in siriporn 2 and i see around 15% vacancy rate in the homes here.... at least that much over in my old mooban of Pimuk 2 and i can only guess, but looks like same or even more in Pimuk 1.... while i don't think the jump in total numbers is much more than usual (meaning probably always been 10-12% vacancy rates), what I do see are slightly lower rents on the average... but still, all in all, LOTS of empty homes.

I won't even hazard a guess as to why there might be more homes empty, it is a bit surprising to see lower prices... Thais are notorious for sticking to their guns when it comes to pricing...

Thanks for the numbers.

To hear others tell it you would think it was a 50% vacancy rate.

10 or 12% rate is not that much lower than 15%. To bad we don;'t see those numbers reflected in the immigration office.

As has already been said some of the people may be just going to other parts of Thailand. Also another thing to think about is that a lot of the Farongs are getting on in age (me) and no longer want all the hassle involved to maintain a home and yard. There is no lack of condos for them to move into.

[sate ayam]

I moved to The Philippines 6 Months ago, and I will never return to Rip off Thailand, I just wish I had moved here years ago.

let us know when you are done with the stealipines. if you will stay long you are either an alcoholist (dead) or a perv.

no normal human being would voluntarily live there for a prolonged time!

after living there for over two years i finally saw what it really is and was more than happy to move back to Thailand.......sabai sabai

[northernjohn]

Just found another thread on the Chiang Mai forum that indicates there are Moo Bahn's having water supply problems. Could be another reason for people to be moving into condo's. Still in Chiang Mai hence the immigration office still has the crowds.

[n210mp]

Your post is completely illogical and unrepresentative of most of those like me who can find easy fault in the Thai bureaucratic logic when it comes to the Thai idea of fairness and reciprocity.

Firstly I didn't marry a Turk or a Japanese person, I married a Thai lady so the ease of integration in those Countries becomes irrelevant like you post!

I certainly in any event wouldn't want to reside in a Muslim Country ( least said soonest mended)

As far as Japan is concerned not sure whether they are on an even mental keel ( I am old enough to remember the last war and still find it hard to forgive them for their atrocities.

You only have to watch some of their TV games to wonder just what it is that makes them tick or more important turns them On, they seem to have a built in sense of sadism.

<SNIP>

We (The Ex Pats) bring money, expertise and support to a community that does nothing (Generally) but attempts to suck the life blood out of us one way or another in their attempts at getting as much money out of us as possible.

Indeed it is a national sport or havnt you noticed?

The only thing that pacifies me is that they are (the typical Thai community) the same with each other and attempt to get the best advantage from any situation , lies being a Nationally accepted way of resolving situations

Seems like you have been well brainwashed if you try to justify their draconian and unjust racist rules on the laws applied to the spouses of Thai people.

Four points, in bold, I'll address one by one.

1 & 2

Very racist statements. My grandfather was a coal miner so exempt from conscription but my husband's grandfather spent 5 years in prisoner of war camps - he escaped twice and when recaptured the second time he was moved to a high security one in Italy. He doesn't hate the Germans or Italians. I lived in Australia for 20 years, working for 13 of those at a non-profit organisation which had hundreds of volunteers. It was a computer group and the volunteers were mostly retired professionals. I had my group of a couple of dozen special ones who came into the office for a morning or an afternoon once every week or second week. They had all been in the army, some had been sent straight to Europe but most had been in PNG and Malaya in the early part of the war. Not one of those men, not even the one who had been in Changi for most of his war service, hated the Japanese. Not one. They had come back from the war, gone to Uni and got on with life, some rising very high in their chosen professions, and those who had gone to very senior management travelled on business between Melbourne and Tokyo on a very regular basis (one of them twice a month), negotiating deals, drawing plans, doing whatever they did with the Japanese who had been their enemy during the war. My husband's grandad, despite not hating the Germans, never once spoke about what happened to him; from the day he returned until the day he died the subject was off limits and being from a mining family myself with no great uncles who had been in the war, I had no experience of talking to people who had gone away to fight. I had read about the things the Japanese did during the war, and was genuinely surprised that these men didn't passionately hate the Japanese and had forgiven them for the atrocities they carried out on them. You say you are old enough to remember the last war, not that you fought in the last war. Those that fought, even those held in Changi, forgave. But you can't? Saying the Japanese are not on a even mental keel is a racist statement.

3

Bargirls suck the lifeblood out of their victims, that's what they're there for but Thai's in general don't. In all tourist area's in every country around the world there are dodgy taxi drivers and stall-holders on tourist markets ripping off naive tourists. I don't like Thai food, cooking is my hobby so I cook every day. I go to local markets for meat, fruit, vegetables and fish and I do the rest of my shopping at Tesco for run of the mill stuff and Rimping or Central Festival for imported food. I go to the shopping malls when I need new clothes or anything else and I walk or take yellow songtoews. I don't ask the price, I know it's 10 baht from Rimping Condo to the bus station who's name I have forgotten and 10 baht from the bus station to Airport Plaza. If I go as far as Tesco, Big C or Makro, I give them 20 baht. I know I don't have to,nine times out of ten they say 'No, no, sip bat'. but when I change songtoew at the bus station I ask for Hang Dong, wait in the shade until the engine starts then ask if it's OK for me to sit in the front so I have an open window or aircon. Rarely, when someone has beaten me to the passenger seat, I sit in the back, but it's still a long way and well worth 20 baht. I'm happy to pay it Occasionally if I've gone to airport Plaza a bit later in the day and the yellow songteow's have stopped running a red songteow driver will try it on a bit, 100 (me smile) 80 (me smile) 60 (me smile). I say 'Plaza to pratu cheingmai (Chiang Mai Gate) sow baht, pratu cheingmai Rimping Condo sow baht, so ha sip baht ka' and it is almost always accepted. An odd few are greedy and won't do it, but most will. Most Thai's do not rip you off. Most Thai's are there to make an honest living. They are certainly not sucking the lifeblood out of us.

4

Pot. Kettle.

I cannot in all fairness disagree with your sentiment and think a very well worded post.

If like me you were brought up in a family that lost Uncles and family friends in that war then your opinions would maybe be a little more affected and at odds with the sentiment you show.

From a moral and a Christian point of view and I came from that kind of back ground, you have reminded me that maybe the time for rancour and hate is over.

However I am reminded in my minds eye too much of the suffering and pain that was cause within my families living memory and so will have to stick to those thoughts and memories however uncomfortable they make others feel.

Maybe if we thought a little more about the sacrifices that others made we would be more careful in dealing with those whom we now consider giving so much of our heritage and history too so freely.

No not racist my kind friend just a genetic result of being born in a situation where the pain and anguish was shared and felt by those who were there at the time and who lost Fathers, brothers and children.

I do not apologise for my remarks but understand that Pain and stress is soon forgotten by those who didn't have it and for those who did experience it it never escapes them, such was the intensity that it affected people of my generation who were no even there.

I recognise that those who were there and didn't wish to talk about their experiences were all old school, maybe if they did talk about it then it would have stopped the majority or imposed reasonable limits of mass immigration to our old Country and also Europe

MODS I apologise for this post and understand that it is a little off topic but felt that there is another point of view shared by an awful lot of people who may well be the "Vast majority".

[northernjohn]

Your post is completely illogical and unrepresentative of most of those like me who can find easy fault in the Thai bureaucratic logic when it comes to the Thai idea of fairness and reciprocity.

Firstly I didn't marry a Turk or a Japanese person, I married a Thai lady so the ease of integration in those Countries becomes irrelevant like you post!

I certainly in any event wouldn't want to reside in a Muslim Country ( least said soonest mended)

As far as Japan is concerned not sure whether they are on an even mental keel ( I am old enough to remember the last war and still find it hard to forgive them for their atrocities.

You only have to watch some of their TV games to wonder just what it is that makes them tick or more important turns them On, they seem to have a built in sense of sadism.

<SNIP>

We (The Ex Pats) bring money, expertise and support to a community that does nothing (Generally) but attempts to suck the life blood out of us one way or another in their attempts at getting as much money out of us as possible.

Indeed it is a national sport or havnt you noticed?

The only thing that pacifies me is that they are (the typical Thai community) the same with each other and attempt to get the best advantage from any situation , lies being a Nationally accepted way of resolving situations

Seems like you have been well brainwashed if you try to justify their draconian and unjust racist rules on the laws applied to the spouses of Thai people.

Four points, in bold, I'll address one by one.

1 & 2

Very racist statements. My grandfather was a coal miner so exempt from conscription but my husband's grandfather spent 5 years in prisoner of war camps - he escaped twice and when recaptured the second time he was moved to a high security one in Italy. He doesn't hate the Germans or Italians. I lived in Australia for 20 years, working for 13 of those at a non-profit organisation which had hundreds of volunteers. It was a computer group and the volunteers were mostly retired professionals. I had my group of a couple of dozen special ones who came into the office for a morning or an afternoon once every week or second week. They had all been in the army, some had been sent straight to Europe but most had been in PNG and Malaya in the early part of the war. Not one of those men, not even the one who had been in Changi for most of his war service, hated the Japanese. Not one. They had come back from the war, gone to Uni and got on with life, some rising very high in their chosen professions, and those who had gone to very senior management travelled on business between Melbourne and Tokyo on a very regular basis (one of them twice a month), negotiating deals, drawing plans, doing whatever they did with the Japanese who had been their enemy during the war. My husband's grandad, despite not hating the Germans, never once spoke about what happened to him; from the day he returned until the day he died the subject was off limits and being from a mining family myself with no great uncles who had been in the war, I had no experience of talking to people who had gone away to fight. I had read about the things the Japanese did during the war, and was genuinely surprised that these men didn't passionately hate the Japanese and had forgiven them for the atrocities they carried out on them. You say you are old enough to remember the last war, not that you fought in the last war. Those that fought, even those held in Changi, forgave. But you can't? Saying the Japanese are not on a even mental keel is a racist statement.

3

Bargirls suck the lifeblood out of their victims, that's what they're there for but Thai's in general don't. In all tourist area's in every country around the world there are dodgy taxi drivers and stall-holders on tourist markets ripping off naive tourists. I don't like Thai food, cooking is my hobby so I cook every day. I go to local markets for meat, fruit, vegetables and fish and I do the rest of my shopping at Tesco for run of the mill stuff and Rimping or Central Festival for imported food. I go to the shopping malls when I need new clothes or anything else and I walk or take yellow songtoews. I don't ask the price, I know it's 10 baht from Rimping Condo to the bus station who's name I have forgotten and 10 baht from the bus station to Airport Plaza. If I go as far as Tesco, Big C or Makro, I give them 20 baht. I know I don't have to,nine times out of ten they say 'No, no, sip bat'. but when I change songtoew at the bus station I ask for Hang Dong, wait in the shade until the engine starts then ask if it's OK for me to sit in the front so I have an open window or aircon. Rarely, when someone has beaten me to the passenger seat, I sit in the back, but it's still a long way and well worth 20 baht. I'm happy to pay it Occasionally if I've gone to airport Plaza a bit later in the day and the yellow songteow's have stopped running a red songteow driver will try it on a bit, 100 (me smile) 80 (me smile) 60 (me smile). I say 'Plaza to pratu cheingmai (Chiang Mai Gate) sow baht, pratu cheingmai Rimping Condo sow baht, so ha sip baht ka' and it is almost always accepted. An odd few are greedy and won't do it, but most will. Most Thai's do not rip you off. Most Thai's are there to make an honest living. They are certainly not sucking the lifeblood out of us.

4

Pot. Kettle.

I cannot in all fairness disagree with your sentiment and think a very well worded post.

If like me you were brought up in a family that lost Uncles and family friends in that war then your opinions would maybe be a little more affected and at odds with the sentiment you show.

From a moral and a Christian point of view and I came from that kind of back ground, you have reminded me that maybe the time for rancour and hate is over.

However I am reminded in my minds eye too much of the suffering and pain that was cause within my families living memory and so will have to stick to those thoughts and memories however uncomfortable they make others feel.

Maybe if we thought a little more about the sacrifices that others made we would be more careful in dealing with those whom we now consider giving so much of our heritage and history too so freely.

No not racist my kind friend just a genetic result of being born in a situation where the pain and anguish was shared and felt by those who were there at the time and who lost Fathers, brothers and children.

I do not apologise for my remarks but understand that Pain and stress is soon forgotten by those who didn't have it and for those who did experience it it never escapes them, such was the intensity that it affected people of my generation who were no even there.

I recognise that those who were there and didn't wish to talk about their experiences were all old school, maybe if they did talk about it then it would have stopped the majority or imposed reasonable limits of mass immigration to our old Country and also Europe

MODS I apologise for this post and understand that it is a little off topic but felt that there is another point of view shared by an awful lot of people who may well be the "Vast majority".

My father served in the second world war and never shared any of his experiences. Most of the ones I know who were in it did not share either. That is why so many of us do not suffer over it. To be a part of it and share the horrors is just to perpetuate the horror. The only thing my father ever said was he remembers a friend of his leading a patrol out and being the only one to come back. Absolutely no other details.

For those of us who did not feel the suffering or have it constantly reminded to us by those who did all we can do is learn from the history books what not to do. Germany and Japan have come along way by putting it behind them and moving on based on the lessons they learned.

[Oww]

Take one look at the immigration office, compare with 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and tell me again that people are leaving.

In case you hadn't noticed, the SAME 8-11 Immigration officers have been there for the past 5-10+ years.

They have only expanded to do residency certs in that time. They are only able/willing to process a few

people per day each. ("today already full") Do you think they are just unable to train new people?

Or are they unwilling to do so because they are raking in too much money?

Yes there are more foreigners that need to be processed at Imm (by the same # of staff).

By the way, lots of them are students and exchange teachers from China that will not stay long-term.

And none of this takes into consideration how many would-be long-term stayers are LEAVING at the airport.

Just a bigger crowd at Imm doesn't mean cm is not taking a net loss on long-term foreigners.

[opalred]

i lived in afew countrys in world malaysia would have to be the worst

[chiang mai]

Take one look at the immigration office, compare with 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and tell me again that people are leaving.

In case you hadn't noticed, the SAME 8-11 Immigration officers have been there for the past 5-10+ years.

They have only expanded to do residency certs in that time. They are only able/willing to process a few

people per day each. ("today already full") Do you think they are just unable to train new people?

Or are they unwilling to do so because they are raking in too much money?

Yes there are more foreigners that need to be processed at Imm (by the same # of staff).

By the way, lots of them are students and exchange teachers from China that will not stay long-term.

And none of this takes into consideration how many would-be long-term stayers are LEAVING at the airport.

Just a bigger crowd at Imm doesn't mean cm is not taking a net loss on long-term foreigners.

Utter tosh, a reply to that babble is not needed!