The Expat Divide...

[villagefarang]

Nicel thoughtful and written post, thought about many of these things myself and you have virtually put my thoughts in print.

Thank you. Although it is nice to hear from everyone it is particularly rewarding to hear from someone who shares at least some of your views.

[villagefarang]

Been here eleven years from the USA. I consider myself as outgoing and a friendly person. But I don't have many friends. I put this down to my age (72) and having essentially quit drinking and whoring. These are boring pastimes to me after eleven years. Everyone I meet at least gets a nod if not a 'hello'. I will engage in conversation with just about anyone but don't find many conversations lead to a friendship. I have given up offering advice unless asked. Even then I know that most will not listen anyway. That bar they want to invest in will be a winner and the bar girl girlfriend is not like all the rest. OK, fine. Experience is the best teacher. I have plenty of experience! I am semi retired with a wonderful part time job to supplement my modest pension. My need for social interaction is largely met through my job and my lady friend. I get along great with my neighbors both Thai and expats. I have a lovely thai girlfriend who is closer to my age than not. 53. I feel the 'expat divide' as I usually have not the same interests as the people I meet. Sometimes it is the language barrier, the culture barrier or the age difference but mostly it is lack of similar interests. My only regret is not learning the Thai language better. I can get by but I consider it a failing. Otherwise I have never been happier than I am in Thailand even though I have few expat friends and don't necessarily want or need any.

Speaking Thai in my opinion does make huge difference and contributes greatly to an improved quality of life. You seem to be happy, however, and that is a real blessing in itself.

[rijb]

There are three main reasons I tend to avoid the run of expats here in Bangkok.

1. Too many Brits who want to talk about the U.K. (I've been there but have no interest in U.K. politics, "football", or "how the bloody Asians" are taking away "their country".).
2. I 've been there before, and am not interested in the bar/bargirl/pub scene anymore. ( I am now rapidly approaching 68 years of age, and am not interested in having women half my age or less using the same old come on lines I first heard over 40 years ago when I was in my twenties)
3. And I dislike the implied racist attitude of many expats who seem to refer to all Thais as "them or they" and expats as "us or we".

I am an American by birth, I do no care about poofers in shorts kicking a volleyball around a football field,

And I am a individual, a me, not a member of a group, and I have my own opinions.

So if you as an expat can avoid talking about:

• Politics or "football" in the U.K.
• The bloody "Asians" and how they are ruining "old Blighty".
• Thai bargirls/hookers/ and your exploits with them.
• And you can't stop referring to Thais as "them" and "Farangs" as "us"

If you can do all that, then maybe we can talk about some topic we are both interested in.

Otherwise we have no common interests we can talk about.

I guess that is the "divide" you are talking about?

However, the time is coming (soon), when the Russian expat (solidarity & lifestyle) values, will become a paramount issue of achievement for all western expats, in SE Asia. Americans, in particular, coming from a 238 year-young, and fundamentally adolescent nation, have yet to learn about the power values of "off-shore" solidarity, regardless of our individual differences. The British expats, have their own inherent issues, for sure. However (again), the Brits (as do other expat nationality groups), absolutely will not "bad-mouth" another Brit, to a non-Brit expat, regardless. We Americans have a lot of "growing-up" to do, especially in that regard. That's the divide that "I" am talking about. Charity begins @ home

Your post is more about sucking up than growing up.

[Kasset Tak]

I was a lone wolf back home not much friends but after living here for a while I have better social life. I was never accepted for me being me back home and had problems finding a lady as I have a genetic disease and being overweight. Now my friends consists of 90% Thais, 9% others and 1% "farangs". And what I feel is that most Thais accept me for who I am, some evem trying to help me with my disease and no problem with the ladies! Now I'm single by my own choice as I'm trying to find a good woman before settling down!

[Jay1]

Was in a Tesco Express the other day, walked past older farang guy. We both gave eye contact. I said "hello", he looked away and walked straight past me.

C'mon, for him to do that is rude and bad manners. Why be like that? I wasn't even after a conversation and I certainly wasn't after a beer with the guy and then asking him to be best man at my wedding! I understand that just because we are foreigners doesn't mean we have to say hello to every foreigner we meet. But I did choose to say hello to him, and to ignore me is rude.

Is it really like this for some people? "I won't say hello back to another farang just because he is a farang too!!" Sad people with negative minds.

[Frank James]

Was in a Tesco Express the other day, walked past older farang guy. We both gave eye contact. I said "hello", he looked away and walked straight past me.

C'mon, for him to do that is rude and bad manners. Why be like that? I wasn't even after a conversation and I certainly wasn't after a beer with the guy and then asking him to be best man at my wedding! I understand that just because we are foreigners doesn't mean we have to say hello to every foreigner we meet. But I did choose to say hello to him, and to ignore me is rude.

Is it really like this for some people? "I won't say hello back to another farang just because he is a farang too!!" Sad people with negative minds.

Costas! Did you see this post? It could be that guy again!

[Guest]

This is an interesting and well written piece which asks some interesting questions.

I have a thought that may be a bit unusual.

There are expats who have been here long enough that they have ... without even knowing it ... become much like the Thai.

Thailand is a respect based culture where face matters, being calm matters, not being "too outgoing" matters. It takes time and patience to gain the friendship of a Thai ... and by that I mean genuine friendship. Thais are not back slappers who roll up and think just because we drink the same beer we are instant friends.

One of the reasons I love living in Thailand is I have always vibrated at this level ... it is neither good nor bad, it is the way I am, and much like the people and place I come from. In other words, Thailand is a place I fit into, and really like.

To address the perceived "divide' is to presume that there is some obligation via race / nationality to become friends. There is not.

To me, interaction with Expats is the Goldilocks story. The porridge is either too cold, too hot, or just right. I decide which to eat.

(1) Too cold - I have neither the time or patience to listen to the same tired tales of how crooked, stupid or "not getting it" Thailand is. I do not live in some illusion filled world that it is perfect, it is truly a "take it warts and all" paradigm Which brings us to ...

(2) Too hot - I am not going to sit and listen to someone on a tourist visa who has all of 60 days logged in the Kingdom lecture me about the absolute bliss and perfection of Thailand and how i don't get it. This self congratulatory narcotic wears thin fast ... and no ... I do not know how to get you a job, work permit, and hot new girlfriend who is a "nice girl." Hint: Learn to speak some Thai.

(3) Just right - For me an Expat who has a reason to be here outside 7 nights a week at the bars, has something else going on is appealing. I do go out, I do have fun, but I also have much more going on here than just "party." But guess what? This is not an Expat thing, this is a "something in common" thing.

So, in summary ... no ... just because you are in the Kingdom we are not "compadres' "long lost friends" etc. If we have something in common, if you have some manners and self respect, if you know how to glide through the Thai culture and fit within it ... we should hang out.

[Gonki]

I'll be honest: I try to avoid any contact with farangs especially from Western countries. I am of Russian descent and I sincerely don't appreciate when ppl tell me that my opinions are made in Kremlin. And once they tell me that they expect me to go on a defensive and extrapolate at length why I think I am above a subhuman. They also treat me like all I know is screw and drink. And they often call me a gay which I am not and never have been (it's their way of dissing after irritating). I spent more than a decade in Western countries and escaped to SE Asia exactly so I can avoid such "contacts". This place is a paradise compared to America, Switzerland, Holland and other places I've been.

Americans like to say "beat you Russians" for example (that's in reference to their cold war/red rag brainwash). Call me a savage but I am capable of excessive violence and the most civilized thing I can do in such circumstance is walking away. I have too many bitter memories of encounters like these to replenish them further.

[villagefarang]

Your thoughts don't sound the least bit unusual to me. Thanks for this reply.

This is an interesting and well written piece which asks some interesting questions.

I have a thought that may be a bit unusual.

There are expats who have been here long enough that they have ... without even knowing it ... become much like the Thai.

Thailand is a respect based culture where face matters, being calm matters, not being "too outgoing" matters. It takes time and patience to gain the friendship of a Thai ... and by that I mean genuine friendship. Thais are not back slappers who roll up and think just because we drink the same beer we are instant friends.

One of the reasons I love living in Thailand is I have always vibrated at this level ... it is neither good nor bad, it is the way I am, and much like the people and place I come from. In other words, Thailand is a place I fit into, and really like.

To address the perceived "divide' is to presume that there is some obligation via race / nationality to become friends. There is not.

To me, interaction with Expats is the Goldilocks story. The porridge is either too cold, too hot, or just right. I decide which to eat.

(1) Too cold - I have neither the time or patience to listen to the same tired tales of how crooked, stupid or "not getting it" Thailand is. I do not live in some illusion filled world that it is perfect, it is truly a "take it warts and all" paradigm Which brings us to ...

(2) Too hot - I am not going to sit and listen to someone on a tourist visa who has all of 60 days logged in the Kingdom lecture me about the absolute bliss and perfection of Thailand and how i don't get it. This self congratulatory narcotic wears thin fast ... and no ... I do not know how to get you a job, work permit, and hot new girlfriend who is a "nice girl." Hint: Learn to speak some Thai.

(3) Just right - For me an Expat who has a reason to be here outside 7 nights a week at the bars, has something else going on is appealing. I do go out, I do have fun, but I also have much more going on here than just "party." But guess what? This is not an Expat thing, this is a "something in common" thing.

So, in summary ... no ... just because you are in the Kingdom we are not "compadres' "long lost friends" etc. If we have something in common, if you have some manners and self respect, if you know how to glide through the Thai culture and fit within it ... we should hang out.

[seajae]

well I cant say its any different here to back home, I always do the same things, friendly with people till they give me reason to change. When you meet some one you size them up and I know I have a bad habit of taking people on face value but thats me and I have always been the same, no need to change now. People make their own beds to lie in so if they are miserable bastards then thats their problem not mine, why should it bother me, if their nice to me I am nice to them but at the same time I dont chase anyone for friendship, I tell it like it is, I believe in honesty up front and I am able to enjoy my own company plus I love a good joke whether its on me or someone else. Seems to me the ones with problems are those that cannot stand to be by themselves and need others, the rest of us are doing fine.

[recycler]

When is your first novel being published?

[visionchaser45]

I go to Thailand to be with my family members, who are Thai. Unfortunately, most farang I encounter fit the negative stereotype. They are swilling down beer at 9:00 a.m.; they think every Thai woman is for sale; and they are loud, sweaty, and arrogant. This is, of course, a stereotype and not all farang are like this. I just don't encounter as many away from the typical tourist haunts. As more move to our part of Isaan, I'm sure I'll encounter one or two with whom I might care to associate.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed as well as a reply.

[trainman34014]

Was in a Tesco Express the other day, walked past older farang guy. We both gave eye contact. I said "hello", he looked away and walked straight past me.

C'mon, for him to do that is rude and bad manners. Why be like that? I wasn't even after a conversation and I certainly wasn't after a beer with the guy and then asking him to be best man at my wedding! I understand that just because we are foreigners doesn't mean we have to say hello to every foreigner we meet. But I did choose to say hello to him, and to ignore me is rude.

Is it really like this for some people? "I won't say hello back to another farang just because he is a farang too!!" Sad people with negative minds.

Same thing has happened to me a few times. I just label them all miserable old gits. Beyond my comprehension why people have to be so ignorant.

[WitawatWatawit]

Put yourself back home. What are the situations in which you strike up a conversation, and how do your friendships develop? Let's say you are transferred to a new environment in which you know nobody. Your first points of contact are going to be colleagues. After that, possibly a neighbour. Maybe someone in a bar, although you probably only drink with colleagues initially. Then perhaps a sprting environment or a club-type situation. Imwonder just how many new friends you make purely by an off chance meeting in a supermarket or on the street?

Now put yourself in Thailand. Some people who come here to work or retire may already have a few friends. I think, perhaps, most don't (I base that on personal knowledge as someone who hired a lot of foreigners over the years). So the initial avenue for those people to make friends is going to be work mates or a bar. Followed by personal interests-hobby situations. But given Thailand's reputation for attracting oddballs and people of dubious intent, your warning radar is going to be more active than back home. So that may be one cause for reticence in making new friends. As time goes by, your degree of reluctance to engage strangers in conversation becomes directly proportional to the number of losers and dubious types you encounter. I find these days that I take a little more time over first impressions than I would do in the past (in the past I was a bit of a slut and would talk to anybody ). Perhaps some might interpret that as stand-offishness or being snobby? Or someone is pretending to be intellectually superior.

Then I wonder about the girlie scene factor. How much the "guilt" factor of being a sexpat plays in a person's desire to make contact with others? Do you feel a bit guilty about whoremongering and don't want to engage in an approach with another foreigner who might be an upstanding citizen who disapproves of your wicked ways? Or perhaps you feel a tad self-conscious about being 40 years older than the lass on your arm?

Or ... perhaps you're just sick of life's little dramas and just want to chill with the minimum of fuss.

[Thakkar]

Dear ventilating VillageFarang

I hear your loquacious lament

And raise you a dismaying dejection!

If only expats exuded

Gracious garrulous goodwill

It would be a wonderful world!

Instead, tenaciously taciturn,

They leave us wistfully wishing

For more sociable society.

I say verily, VillageFarang:

Careful for what we wish

When some of these guys take to talking, we'll wish they'd shut the furk up!

T

[bunuel]

I get around my village area a lot. I know the farangs who live within a 10k radius and chat socially occasionally a beer, but in town 20k away I often see farangs I have never seen before and assume they are mostly tourists or fly in farangs. Almost always they look the other way and refuse to make eye contact, its as if they thought they were off the beaten track (which we sort of are) and they resent that others are here. Those in that further afield zone that I have talked to are invariably living here, mostly German or Scandinavian which means friendly but no real communication in most cases. No farang has ever personally sought any local knowledge off me (except one from Thai Visa on a farming issue) but the occasional Thai has come to see me about some farang issue. So the expat divide comes down to people, I think most of us that are living alone in a Thai community would take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone in their own language. However some people aren't like that.

As a native Swede, this reminds me of the old story about two Swedes sitting silently with a bottle of vodka between them. Finally, one fills up his countryman's glass, hoists his own, and says, " Skål! "

The other stares at him in disgust. " Are we gonna talk, or are we going to drink? ":)

[rct99q]

If I wanted to mingle with Farangs, I'd go to Farangland.

Really? And where might that be? After 5 years living in Thailand my family and I have returned to the West. In my new little village in the middle of nowhere (town of 4,000 people) 42%of the population are "immigrants". Philippines, India, Korea, Mexico and Chinese. All working, raising families for the most part. Most have integrated into the community. Speak English, friendly, speak well of the country they call home. Many seem thankful for the opportunity they have been given . Realising how difficult it is to get a visa(work permit, visitor, student) they want to be seen as being productive and helpful. In part there is always the threat of being kicked out.

How is this related to the OP? Mai loo, but part of me feels if expats (not all, some) put forth the effort to integrate into the Thai society (learn the language),join local clubs (badminton, football, scouts, fishing, golf), as the immigrants here have done they may find less of a need to be all part of the expat crowd. I took the time to learn the language and have to admit other than 2 or 3 farang most of my social interactions were with Thais.

I get the feeling the foreigners here seem to be thankful for the opportunity they have been granted, then some of the expats I met during my time in Thailand

[96tehtarp]

When observing expats I have often noticed that the "wedge" that creates this divide is most often used by Thai wives. This appears to a protective mechanism fueled by jealousy among other things. Expat men need to gain their independence and hang on to it. It's important.

[Strangebrew]

Myself I try to smile say hello to all but I wasn't that social back home either. If I have a common hobby then different story. I not a bar hopper, Don't do drugs, I chase women but not for chit chat. I treat everyone with respect, But I'am human so with that comes things like I won't go out of my way to show that I'm not a racist. I distance myself from those who in my terms are leaning to the shady side. I trust only myself. I believe Half of what I see and maybe half of what I hear. I can honestly say I have maybe ten people who I trust and call friends. But here you got to watch your back. I must admit I do enjoy my peace and quite When I need a laugh I just come here and read what's written here. I have nothing to prove to anyone or anyone to keep up with. I don't get impressed by what you got or what you do or who your are. But here you always get those who think I'm better than you. Legends in there own minds.

[NeverSure]

Is this a treatise or just the beginning of a novel?

I got bored about 1/2 into the 3rd paragraph.

I don't quite get the divide perhaps you see it because you act like an ass to people. I meet lots of people here and they all seem to be nice to me. I don't read deep into things and just take things for face value. I also don't put a lot of value into what others do or think. I just live my life and when I can give to others.

Are you kidding me? The OP is perhaps the nicest guy on this forum. He practices what he preaches as he as invited me and anyone else to meet up with him for coffee. He's been in Thailand "forever" yet he's never too busy to answer a question for a newb.

If you were bored, perhaps you are one of those who needs to do some soul searching.

As I think about it, it's guys like you who would prompt such a discussion. There's always a put-down ready to spit out.

[kamahele]

I don't go out of my way to either avoid or be nice to a farang just because they are a farang. It all depends on their personality. I found that there is a certain percentage that do not like Thailand or Thai people but live here anyway and also only hang with other like minded men. These types, I actually do avoid. I'd rather live in my Thai neighborhood and hang out with Thai and farang who may enjoy the same type of living and socializing.

[NeverSure]

Was in a Tesco Express the other day, walked past older farang guy. We both gave eye contact. I said "hello", he looked away and walked straight past me.

C'mon, for him to do that is rude and bad manners. Why be like that? I wasn't even after a conversation and I certainly wasn't after a beer with the guy and then asking him to be best man at my wedding! I understand that just because we are foreigners doesn't mean we have to say hello to every foreigner we meet. But I did choose to say hello to him, and to ignore me is rude.

Is it really like this for some people? "I won't say hello back to another farang just because he is a farang too!!" Sad people with negative minds.

He's probably wanted by the international police force in his home country and is hoping you don't recognize him from the wanted posters spread about.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Although well written, I disagree with the OPs post entirely:

"I never found a companion that was so companionable as solitude."

- Henry David Thoreau

[JAFO]

Nice job VillageFarang,

I always wondered about this farang disliking a farang thing. It originally seemed odd to me but now it is to be somewhat expected. Most are older guys and as most older folks they tend to be a bit more anti social and less open to new things and acquaintances as time rolls on. This is not an expat phenomenon its an age deal. I see it here in the US, older people tend to socialize less so to expect expats to be walking along smiling an waving saying "Hey Bill how are you" is not likely. Plus you have an added extra element of expats from different countries carrying their own prejudices.

For me personally (since this thread seemed to want to solicit honest sentiments) I am extremely social but I will honestly admit I would struggle always hanging out with folks around my age or older. Typically its either their sedate nature, lack of adventure or personal demeanor. While I appreciate their position in life its just not for me. Even my wife who has met up with a few expats I had made contact with said "Why do you want to hang out with older men"? She didn't say it in a mean way just knows me and that I would have nothing in common with them. I also can't relate to guys that want to go bed at 8 or 9 every night or that have a rigid routine. I also probably would never meet at a bar. Just don't care for the scene at all. I'm the guy that loves to hang out by a big BBQ pit, have a few drinks, talk crap, laugh, joke, talk cars and moto's and maybe plan something etc. I don't do Politics, Religion, Racial stuff or sit around pissing and moaning. I am extremely hyper active and have been since I was a child. I sleep when I want to sleep and do what I want to do. I wing it all the time and do things very spontaneous. I will say my wife struggles with this at times but is a good sport about it and has reeled me in a bit. I also know that I absolutely require a cross section of age groups in my life and I have that in my life both in Thailand and currently while I work in the US.

Edited September 4, 2014 by JAFO

[Neeranam]

OP, If you pass me I might give you a nod, but probably just a smile.I try not to judge you. You might be a millionaire newbie nice guy. You maybe a total tosser English teacher who's been here 30 years. Chances are You may be a retired binman married to "Pink Pussy Ploy", or a retired accountant from Rotheringham with a taste for ladyboys.

One thing that I notice is the longer I live here, the more I want to judge others due to false feeling of self-importance.

I try to compare myself to myself, not others.

[mauGR1]

People are quite individualistic-minded in Western countries, and we are somehow proud of that.

Thais call us " Farangs " as a bunch, but that obviously is not enough to give Westerners some sort of unity.

IMHO our individualism, which is normal and legit, is just being highlighted by the apparent unity of Thai people.

btw, nice OP from "Villagefarang " and food for thought.

[Aussieroaming]

No offence OP! But I missed the point. Can you repeat it ?

[villagefarang]

I wasn’t without a fair amount of trepidation when considering whether or not to post this. So you can imagine how pleased I am with the results, in the form of so many thoughtful replies and shared experiences.

I ran out of “Likes” before retiring last night but would still like to show my appreciation for all your comments. Having started this I feel it is my responsibility to read each and every post, even those from the Twitter types who think nothing should be longer than 140 characters.

I like ThaiVisa and this topic has illustrated why. In my opinion it is a small but very vocal minority who attempt to give this forum a bad name. By ignoring the Trolls and being respectful of those we disagree with, things don’t have to degenerate into name calling.

Thank you for all your time and effort put forth to read and respond to this topic.

[Strangebrew]

Do you really need to say hello? to every stranger you pass? Is it a divide? nah if you took the time to say hi to every stranger you never have time to do what you want to do.. I'm not here to live to what you want nor are to live to what I want. You may get a hello or a nod, But don't expect I'm going to take you under my wing. After all why are most of us here? to get away from where we were. That and that nasty ex oops sorry off topic. But don't take it as personal we all are different yet the same. allow the space and from time to time others will enter your space. Like myself Thai Chi is my inner peace and found many others in same space. Go about doing things in life you enjoy and you will find others liked minded.