Dogs in cages...What to do?

[Trujillo]

Not far from where I live is a Thai couple, in their mid-twenties, who have two Siberian huskies. Both are puppies, maybe one is about four to six months old and the other is maybe about three months old.

They are both kept in small cages pretty much all day long. The older one used to be taken out for a short walk on a leash, and occasionally a ride on the owner's new Scoopy scooter, but these days both live mostly in their cages. (I should point out that the owner lives in a small, fenced-in house, and there is plenty of space for the dogs to walk around and play in.)

As a dog-person, I feel bad for these animals. Aside from the fact that they do not get proper exercise, dogs living in small cages is wrong to my point of view. They are not birds.

I believe that the man is trying to do the right thing by these dogs -- he's got unnecessarily expensive, special dry dog food, lots of play toys that seem to never be used, a giant cloth-rope leash and special shampoos (as well as the Hello Kitty-colored cages themselves). What I would like is for someone with some authority -- a Thai -- to go to him and explain this cage thing is not the right way to keep a dog. I am pretty sure that someone (Thai) has told him this is what one does when keeping "dog-animals."

So, if there is anyone out there who could recommend some "rescue" organization or such that might be able to send a representative to his house (the address I can provide via PM) and have a chat with him. I think it would be good for both him and his dogs.

I doubt there is any legislated protection for animals in this country, but according to Hong Kong law, for example, animal cruelty offences carry a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a fine of HK$200,000 (825,000 baht).

[fredge45]

Maybe a call to Care for Dogs so their good people can have a chat with the fellow. Lovely appearing dogs and maybe he just needs some guidance in the right direction.

Even a fan too help them keep cool! Great.

[FolkGuitar]

I'm in full agreement with you about giving animals more freedom. "I" don't believe dogs should live in cages, and I hate even having to put my cat in a carry box for the few minutes needed to take her to the vet.

However, there are others, who consider themselves to be animal lovers, who DO think dogs should live in cages. They truly believe that they are not being cruel to their pets, but keeping them 'safe.' Frankly, I don't understand that mentality, but they do.

And so, I doubt that there are any animal cruelty laws that would say keeping them in cages as shown, clean and well fed, with proper veterinary care, that would find them in non-compliance. Perhaps the laws need to be tighter? Or perhaps you and I don't really understand the animal needs.

I'd never own a dog if I live in an apartment as I think that is too small a space. But that's me.

There is a whole population of dog trainers/handlers/breeders etc., who keep their dogs in cages.

Who is to say which school of thought is correct?

Edited September 8, 2014 by FolkGuitar

[BookMan]

From the photo the dogs don't seem to be in poor health. They have clean cages, the owner even has a fan blowing on them to keep them cool. Water bowls in the cage. Doesn't look like any doggie droppings about the place.

Maybe they are exercised at times you dont see?

[Trujillo]

Of course they could be taking the dogs for a walk when I am not around, but I am around pretty much all the time and it would be hard for them to take the dogs out without me seeing that (if I am home).

I have no problem with the cleanliness or actually putting a dog in a cage -- if there is a specific purpose and not as the status quo. Dogs in cages for transport, keeping them away from guests who fear dogs, etc. is fine, but to house them in an area just barely big enough to turn around in all day long? It's like saying, "At least they keep the prison clean." And, as I said, there is a small courtyard area for them to frolic in. Remember, these are puppies, and puppies like to play. I have NEVER seen these animals interact, let alone play. All they do (all they can do) is sleep.

They seem to be taken into the house in the evening, but when that's over, it's back in the cages.

[Dante99]

Why don't you just go talk with them nicely and offer to walk the dogs twice a day for the pleasure and good will of doing so, no charge? You can help fix the problem yourself if you want.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Dante99

[haybilly]

I must agree--although this is not ideal for such large dogs, they do look in good condition, with a fan and also what looks like both a mosquito coil and a rolled up mosquito net so he does seem to care--if they actually get taken out for exercise daily then it's not that bad.

[Trujillo]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.

First, you always run the risk of, "Oh, here's the meddlesome, know-it-all farang telling me how I should take care of MY dogs?"

Second, I don't know that my Thai would be good enough to get my point across properly.

Third, even if I could overcome both of the above, I'd rather he be told by someone fully associated with some organization so that the suggestions have more merit than just coming from a "helpful" neighbor.

Also, I have my own dog and really don't want to have to babysit his animals, as cool as they are.

"...if they actually get taken out for exercise daily then it's not that bad." -- Haybilly

I don't agree. These are puppies and need to have space to wander around in, play in (and with each other), explore and interact with the world. This breed is very intelligent and really Haybilly, you think being in a clean cage all day long is acceptable as long as the dogs get a walk once and a while? Maybe you'd think differently if every time you went by there -- several times during the course of a day -- and saw them curled up pressed against the bars, hours upon hours all the same. As I said, these aren't finches.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Trujillo

[Bill97]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.

First, you always run the risk of, "Oh, here's the meddlesome, know-it-all farang telling me how I should take care of MY dogs?"

Second, I don't know that my Thai would be good enough to get my point across properly.

Third, even if I could overcome both of the above, I'd rather he be told by someone fully associated with some organization so that the suggestions have more merit than just coming from a "helpful" neighbor.

Also, I have my own dog and really don't want to have to babysit his animals, as cool as they are.

"...if they actually get taken out for exercise daily then it's not that bad." -- Haybilly

I don't agree. These are puppies and need to have space to wander around in, play in (and with each other), explore and interact with the world. This breed is very intelligent and really Haybilly, you think being in a clean cage all day long is acceptable as long as the dogs get a walk once and a while? Maybe you'd think differently if every time you went by there -- several times during the course of a day -- and saw them curled up pressed against the bars, hours upon hours all the same. As I said, these aren't finches.

[DaamNaam]

Ninja at night and set them free, then take them to care for dogs.

Not exactly law abiding but neither is keeping any animal locked in a cage like that.

[uptheos]

Siberian Huskies, I wonder if he's expecting snow?

They might be OK now, but I'm sure as they get older their physical and mental condition will deteriorate without exercise and stimulation.

Where's Nienke when you need her?

She would be able to offer sound advice regarding your concerns.

[DaamNaam]

Siberian Huskies, I wonder if he's expecting snow?

They might be OK now, but I'm sure as they get older their physical and mental condition will deteriorate without exercise and stimulation.

Where's Nienke when you need her?

She would be able to offer sound advice regarding your concerns.

I'll get her.

[seesip]

I'm not sure that would be considered cruelty to animals. A lot of urban dogs are stuck in small apartments all day, but they get along fine taken out for walks etc. These two appear to be well cared for. Local dogs that are free to run around get serious wear and tear from car/motorcycle injuries, bites from other dogs, etc. Also imho maybe not the best idea to be taking photos of the house and posting online.

[Nienke]

Where is Nienke? Well,busy cursing 3BB as again my internet is s***.

Keeping highly active (mentally & physically) fast-growing (all) pups in small confinements for long periods of time (longer than 2 hours average) can do (severe) damage to both the physical and the mental health of a pup.
And i've seen it on more than one occasion.

As most know already, i'm not against crate/cage/bench/doghouse/kennel training IF and only IF the well-being of the animal is taken into account and the requirements for his or her welfare are met.
Sufficient physical and mental stimulation is one of these requirements.

Many pet dogs are well-kept where it concerns diet, access to clean drinking water, and protection from disease. But most pets lack proper understanding from their owners/care-takers) where it concerns their behavior development and language, and sufficient physical !AND mental exercise. This includes dogs kept by foreigners.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Nienke

[Trujillo]

It might be worth noting that the cage with the younger one in it, the one I have never seen out of the cage (although I have seen the cage empty and the dog, apparently, in the house in the evening), has a lock on it and it is kept locked, even at some times when the owner is home. That would indicate that the owner fears that someone might steal the dog. I assume huskies are expensive to buy here and he might be paranoid. (Which begs the question: Why buy a pet so expensive that you are too afraid to do anything other than keep it in lockdown?)

One other thing I might add; what is the point of owning cool dogs (or any dog) and not enjoying the pleasures of having a dog as a pet? Dogs are companion animals, not zoo specimens. Would you cat-people be okay with keeping your cat in a cage just big enough to turn around in all day? Would you say you are getting the real and satisfying experience of owning a cat/dog?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Trujillo

[cardinalblue]

Treat others (I include animals) like how you would want to be treated...I personally would not like to live in a cage so neither do my two golden retrievers...

Unless there is a good reason like illness, injury, female period, safety risk to the general public/residents etc that is pretty much it...

My guess is the potential a dog can do damage to a garden or yard: poop urine digging chewing etc. If that is the case, then one solution is divide up the yard so the dog has a dog run or some space including shade shelter water access sun dirt/grass area for pooping (it goes over the fence daily) etc...I have given up trying to maintain a nice lawn inside their living quarters...

We have 120 sq wah for our property and given the front section of about 80 sq wah for them and the back yard of 40 sq wah is my wife's garden, fish pond, sala and child play area...

CB

[CMSteve]

We raise huskie here in Thailand as well. They are mentally and physically active dogs that need a lot of attention. However, I do agree that the pictures seem to show cared-for dogs. Are you a dog person? Maybe this is a good excuse to meet the neighbors(translator in tow if necessary) and a chance to walk the huskies? We have a few locals that like to go biking with our dogs(more being dragged on a bike!).

And yes, dogs with proper pedigree and good bloodline can sell for quite a bit. A pedigree Huksky in Chiang Mai starts at about 15000THB

It might be worth noting that the cage with the younger one in it, the one I have never seen out of the cage (although I have seen the cage empty and the dog, apparently, in the house in the evening), has a lock on it and it is kept locked, even at some times when the owner is home. That would indicate that the owner fears that someone might steal the dog. I assume huskies are expensive to buy here and he might be paranoid. (Which begs the question: Why buy a pet so expensive that you are too afraid to do anything other than keep it in lockdown?)

One other thing I might add; what is the point of owning cool dogs (or any dog) and not enjoying the pleasures of having a dog as a pet? Dogs are companion animals, not zoo specimens. Would you cat-people be okay with keeping your cat in a cage just big enough to turn around in all day? Would you say you are getting the real and satisfying experience of owning a cat/dog?

[Thighlander]

I would pick my battles carefully, especially while a guest in a foreign country. Maybe 1 in 100 Thai dog owners take proper care of their pet. The majority of them in the US are pretty much idiots, too.

[Bill97]

Sure glad my neighbors are not sticking their noses in my yard/house the way the OP is. Coming next will be reports on the bedroom and bathroom. He said it "meddlesome".

[Trujillo]

I never said I wanted a battle. The only reply to the point my OP was post number 2....at least so far.

"However, I do agree that the pictures seem to show cared-for dogs." -- CMSteve

I don't agree that a dog in a cage all the time is adequately "cared-for." Freedom of movement is, to me, not an option for a well cared for dog.

[Nienke]

Treat others (I include animals) like how you would want to be treated...I personally would not like to live in a cage so neither do my two golden retrievers...

Unless there is a good reason like illness, injury, female period, safety risk to the general public/residents etc that is pretty much it...

My guess is the potential a dog can do damage to a garden or yard: poop urine digging chewing etc. If that is the case, then one solution is divide up the yard so the dog has a dog run or some space including shade shelter water access sun dirt/grass area for pooping (it goes over the fence daily) etc...I have given up trying to maintain a nice lawn inside their living quarters...

We have 120 sq wah for our property and given the front section of about 80 sq wah for them and the back yard of 40 sq wah is my wife's garden, fish pond, sala and child play area...

CB

Of course, keeping a dog in a cage for too long is cruel. But keeping dogs in larger confined area's without sufficient interaction (play, such as games where they need to use their brains. Not just running next to a jogging owner with an ipod on the head or after a ball time and again) isn't fun for them either. (not saying you do that CB. I'm reacting in general here, not personally).

Even with a 2 rai piece of land, dogs will primarily sleep till their owner comes back. Then they are ready to go and do fun-stuff ... together.

[Nienke]

It might be worth noting that the cage with the younger one in it, the one I have never seen out of the cage (although I have seen the cage empty and the dog, apparently, in the house in the evening), has a lock on it and it is kept locked, even at some times when the owner is home. That would indicate that the owner fears that someone might steal the dog. I assume huskies are expensive to buy here and he might be paranoid. (Which begs the question: Why buy a pet so expensive that you are too afraid to do anything other than keep it in lockdown?)

It is very possible the owner is afraid their pet will be stolen. It does happen.

Dogs are companion animals, not zoo specimens.

No they are not. But also zoo specimens have the right to have their welfare requirements met. Lots and lots of animal suffering under these poor creatures. Maybe/probably even much more then out pet animals. Not even to mention the enormous suffering under the majority of our farm animals. (which doesn't make me against eating meat. It makes me against the way we keep and treat our farm animals)

[Sparkles]

I never said I wanted a battle. The only reply to the point my OP was post number 2....at least so far.

"However, I do agree that the pictures seem to show cared-for dogs." -- CMSteve

I don't agree that a dog in a cage all the time is adequately "cared-for." Freedom of movement is, to me, not an option for a well cared for dog.

I'm with you Trujillo, 100%.Dogs are natural hunters and collectors ,animals that like to roam and run and have been for 1000's of years.

In cages they may well look well fed,they can hardly exercise, and cared for but mentally they are mentally over time shot to pieces.

We have the same scenario,3 doors away, 3 dogs in 2 cages, 2 cross breeds in the one cage ,they can hardly move and the other a Siberian Husky (they must be flavour of the month).The owners both teachers leave home around 7.30am and return after dark the dogs then are let out and go ballistic running and crapping in the soi.The question is of course why have dogs at all ,are they a trophy ? Not once in 6 years have I ever seen them washed or taken for a walk.

They bark at every single person who goes past the house,walkers,motor bikes,the postman,the garbage collector,the street sweepers.

As for discussing the welfare of the dogs with the owners one Thai neighbour did that, very politely, and was told to f**** off and mind their own business.

Enquiries some of us have made with various organisation like Care for Dogs is that in this country there is simply no law or restrictions in keeping animals in such a way.

[Furryman]

Crate training is a totally legitimate and humane way to raise a dog. It is IMO the best way to raise a well behaved and civilized dog, something severely lacking here in Thailand. But like anything else, it can be taken too far.

To the uninformed, the amount of time a puppy stays in it's crate might seem like a lot, but so long as it is let out at least every 4 hours for about a half hour, along with being taken for a good long walk at least once a day, there is no problem. As the pup gets older it should spend less time in the crate, but if done right the dog will prefer to sleep and eat inside it's crate, as it becomes, in it's mind, it's 'den', a safe place all it's own.

Edit: FWIW the US Humane Society agrees with me: http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/crate_training.html

Edited September 8, 2014 by Furryman

[haybilly]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.

First, you always run the risk of, "Oh, here's the meddlesome, know-it-all farang telling me how I should take care of MY dogs?"

Second, I don't know that my Thai would be good enough to get my point across properly.

Third, even if I could overcome both of the above, I'd rather he be told by someone fully associated with some organization so that the suggestions have more merit than just coming from a "helpful" neighbor.

Also, I have my own dog and really don't want to have to babysit his animals, as cool as they are.

"...if they actually get taken out for exercise daily then it's not that bad." -- Haybilly

I don't agree. These are puppies and need to have space to wander around in, play in (and with each other), explore and interact with the world. This breed is very intelligent and really Haybilly, you think being in a clean cage all day long is acceptable as long as the dogs get a walk once and a while? Maybe you'd think differently if every time you went by there -- several times during the course of a day -- and saw them curled up pressed against the bars, hours upon hours all the same. As I said, these aren't finches.

You misunderstood my post-- by saying that "it's not THAT bad", I meant that I have seen a lot worse in several Asian countries, including Thailand, and even on occasions in the West.

If the owner takes them for a couple of good long walks, during which the dogs can run around, then that is probably more exercise than many of the 'well cared for' dogs actually receive.

But, as has been said, don't argue with me, if it really does bother you that much go and talk to your neighbours- I'm sure they will appreciate your concern and take immediate measures to rectify the situation.

And pigs can fly.....

[CMSteve]

Well then, this is your chance to cross the line from behind the back complaining, to doing something. Why don't you go say hello to the neighbors and offer to play with the dogs?

I never said I wanted a battle. The only reply to the point my OP was post number 2....at least so far.

"However, I do agree that the pictures seem to show cared-for dogs." -- CMSteve

I don't agree that a dog in a cage all the time is adequately "cared-for." Freedom of movement is, to me, not an option for a well cared for dog.

[weescotsguy66]

Even a fan too help them keep cool! Great.

They have a fan to keep them cool it is in the pic, however it looks like it is a large enough house, garden to let them loose on the outside.

[Trujillo]

"...but so long as it is let out at least every 4 hours for about a half hour...As the pup gets older it should spend less time in the crate, but if done right the dog will prefer to sleep and eat inside it's crate..." -- Furryman

Do you suggest teaching the dog how to open a latch on the cage from the inside, or will you also give it the key to the lock?

Why would you teach a dog to want to be in a steel wire cage?

And looking at that site, it appears that "crate training" is to prevent a dog from tearing up the house. These people have a courtyard, mostly brickwork, a small patch of grass.

I said, "Dogs are companion animals, not zoo specimens."

To which Nienke replied: "No they are not."

Domesticated dogs (I'm not talking about wild animals or street dogs) favor humans within their pack instinct, even if the pack (as it is now with me and my one dog) is only you and it. Unless of course I misread this reply and Nienke means, "No, they are not companion animals, they are zoo specimens."

[PattayaPhom]

Huskies are an intelligent and independant breed that will dig under walls to escape their confinement. Not an ideal scenario but the owner is more than likely afraid they will escape.

[Trujillo]

Can they dig through concrete?

By the way, in all my years of dog ownership and contact with others with dogs, I don't think I have seen a dog as composed as this older (still a puppy, though) dog. Never barks, learned to ride on the Scoopy floorboard first try, and is totally incurious. Dogs, people, cars, bikes....the dog doesn't even look up. I don't know, maybe it's been confined it's whole life and knows the world is out of reach, so why bother. Or it's high all the time.

The younger dog I've never seen standing up or moving, so in a different aspect, it's also nearly inert.