America is making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

[Jingthing]

As an American, I also find this situation disgusting. Oh well! Sorry for the inconvenience!

I don't like it also but I will never apologize for what those a-holes in Washington DC do.

Well I can understand that but Americans abroad do represent our country, like it or not.

It's bad enough that we're hassled with this.

It is news to me that everyone opening accounts is being bothered at all, even trivially.

This kind of thing will increase anti-Americanism in the world. It is not good.

I understand why the form ... to smoke out people with any connection to the USA ... but imagine if lots of countries did this ... so many forms!

I am not a citizen of Latvia. I promise!

[JDGRUEN]

Does anyone know if the bank was insisting on having the form filled out and signed because of the behest of the U.S. Government?

Or is this action just a CYA on the part of the bank to make sure of who is who... It wouldn't be the first time a bank has amplified a requirement just to cover their butts...

[Mojomor]

This type of stuff is extremely annoying. All these extra forms increase cost and this cost is paid, not by the USA, not by the Banks, but by the customers.

That's you and me!

[Jingthing]

This type of stuff is extremely annoying. All these extra forms increase cost and this cost is paid, not by the USA, not by the Banks, but by the customers.

That's you and me!

Yeah ... next time you see an American wag an accusatory finger at him ... you cost me a 50 satang!

[Asiantravel]

Does anyone know if the bank was insisting on having the form filled out and signed because of the behest of the U.S. Government?

Or is this action just a CYA on the part of the bank to make sure of who is who... It wouldn't be the first time a bank has amplified a requirement just to cover their butts...

If you look at this website of Bangkok bank for example, please see the upper right-hand side of the web page for foreign customers under the subheading tips/useful information entitled “ what is FACTA “ ?

If you read that PDF document, it says every bank in Thailand is compliant with FACTA so I would imagine (although I could be wrong), every bank would be using a standard form based on what information the IRS or relevant American government department has told them they need from every customer.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/SpecialServices/ForeignCustomers/Pages/default.aspx

[JDGRUEN]

Does anyone know if the bank was insisting on having the form filled out and signed because of the behest of the U.S. Government?

Or is this action just a CYA on the part of the bank to make sure of who is who... It wouldn't be the first time a bank has amplified a requirement just to cover their butts...

If you look at this website of Bangkok bank for example, please see the upper right-hand side of the web page for foreign customers under the subheading tips/useful information entitled “ what is FACTA “ ?

If you read that PDF document, it says every bank in Thailand is compliant with FACTA so I would imagine (although I could be wrong), every bank would be using a standard form based on what information the IRS or relevant American government department has told them they need from every customer.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/SpecialServices/ForeignCustomers/Pages/default.aspx

I should have clarified - I meant applying it to Other than Americans ... just to filter out who it may apply to - a shotgun approach ... I am aware of what FACTA is .... but just wondering ...

[Asiantravel]

This is because many wealthy Americans are renouncing their passport to buy citizenship in another country to avoid paying tax. By us law you may still owe tax even if you are no longer a citizen so theoretically all non us citizens are potential us tax evaders.

Thanks for answering that because I meant to ask why were they asking on the form above renouncing citizenship.

So are you saying that if you are a US citizen it is impossible to relinquish your tax obligations for the rest of your life no matter what measures you try to adopt?

Google the details about renouncing a US citizenship. Frightening !!

And check also the financial misadventures that have struck people with dual citizenship who thought they were clear of US laws because they considered themselves true citizens of their other nationality and hadn't lived in the US for a long time.

There are several amusing trick applications of that law.

Like preventing you from entering the US again if you have renounced your citizenship because of tax reason. They would arrest you at the border anyway if you hadn't paid your full taxes before absconding.

I renounced mine decades ago at the US consulate in Brussels.

At that time there were none of these pesky IRS laws but there was an awful lot of signed declarations to make.

The procedure was free then.

I just found this article-quite astonishing.

So what would the IRS/US government do if they found a person, for example, that has been living in Thailand for the past 10 years and has relinquished his / her US citizenship? If the IRS considers this person has tried to conceal money even after giving up citizenship would they still go to the trouble and expense of extraditing that person from Thailand for US tax evasion?

IRS Nets Offshore Data From 77,000 Banks, 70 Countries In FATCA Push

FBAR failures can mean fines up to $500,000 and prison up to ten years!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/06/03/irs-nets-offshore-data-from-77000-banks-70-countries-in-fatca-push/

[fletchsmile]

The more I look at the business world, the more I think just stay away from the US and USD. They're taking the world in the wrong direction on so many levels.

Fortunately for non-US citizens, the US and their currency are past their peak and declining in world importance, so it's only a matter of time. But could be a slow process. Things like FATCA just accelerate it, which ironically may be no bad thing for the rest of us. Eventually there will be enough people in the world telling the US government to stick their rules and finding alternatives and telling them to stick their currency

Nothing against your average American. It's down mainly to their government. But then again countries often end up with the governments they deserve. So collectively for their sake (and ours too shorter term) I hope they start taking more responsibility for their own actions instead of always blaming others. eg I spilt my hot coffee, who can I sue and blame. Not surprising really though when even the (allegedly) most important/powerful person in the country (Obama) complains he can't get things done because his hands are tied - what a shoddy example of a leader. Short of some real leadership that takes responsibility and sets an example I don't see it improving.

I don't mind playing my small part in that, by minimising my exposure to USD, US investments and even US products. Just hope more people start to do likewise until collectively enough people tell the US government to **** off in their arrogance and meddling

Cheers

Fletch

[Asiantravel]

The more I look at the business world, the more I think just stay away from the US and USD. They're taking the world in the wrong direction on so many levels.

Fortunately for non-US citizens, the US and their currency are past their peak and declining in world importance, so it's only a matter of time. But could be a slow process. Things like FATCA just accelerate it, which ironically may be no bad thing for the rest of us. Eventually there will be enough people in the world telling the US government to stick their rules and finding alternatives and telling them to stick their currency

Nothing against your average American. It's down mainly to their government. But then again countries often end up with the governments they deserve. So collectively for their sake (and ours too shorter term) I hope they start taking more responsibility for their own actions instead of always blaming others. eg I spilt my hot coffee, who can I sue and blame. Not surprising really though when even the (allegedly) most important/powerful person in the country (Obama) complains he can't get things done because his hands are tied - what a shoddy example of a leader. Short of some real leadership that takes responsibility and sets an example I don't see it improving.

I don't mind playing my small part in that, by minimising my exposure to USD, US investments and even US products. Just hope more people start to do likewise until collectively enough people tell the US government to **** off in their arrogance and meddling

Cheers

Fletch

And actually I'm sure some people wouldn't be quite so upset if they even thought these much sought after tax dollars were being spent responsibly

I always remember the words of Australian media tycoon Kerry Packer when he was accused by a bunch of Senators during a select committee hearing of being a tax evader and he responded with both barrels

"I am not evading tax in any way, shape or form. Now of course I am minimizing my tax and if anybody in this country doesn't minimize their tax they want their heads read because as a government I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be donating extra."

[swissie]

Ahhhhhh, all your despicable US Tax Evaders, fasten seat belt.

It won't be long until strange men, wearing dark sunglasses will burst into your humble home here, snatch you, put you into a gunny-sack, cart you off to the nearest Thai Military Airport where a US cargo plane is waiting for you, officially flying "Frozen Shrimp" back to the US. And then you will experience the full wrath of the IRS.....................................................

Instead of stumbling around the world with a big vacuum-cleaner to enhance tax revenue, why not abolish the largest tax-evasion black whole that exists in the universe? It's called DELAWARE. To make sure, this is not a tropical island in the Caribbean, it's a federal state within the borders of the continental US.

The gusher of tax revenue this would produce, should be enough to enable the IRS to hire an additional 20 million agents with the sole purpose to hunt down and snatch half of their own citizenry spread all over the globe.

God bless America! A dysfunctional society needs all the blessings that it can get.

Cheers.

[Langsuan Man]

Another false misleading headline from Thai Visa

America is making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

No, stupid Thai Bank employees are making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

[jayceenik]

Another false misleading headline from Thai Visa

America is making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

No, stupid Thai Bank employees are making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

My, my we're getting really upset - aren't we ?

[Naam]

The more I look at the business world, the more I think just stay away from the US and USD. They're taking the world in the wrong direction on so many levels.

Fortunately for non-US citizens, the US and their currency are past their peak and declining in world importance, so it's only a matter of time. But could be a slow process. Things like FATCA just accelerate it, which ironically may be no bad thing for the rest of us. Eventually there will be enough people in the world telling the US government to stick their rules and finding alternatives and telling them to stick their currency

Nothing against your average American. It's down mainly to their government. But then again countries often end up with the governments they deserve. So collectively for their sake (and ours too shorter term) I hope they start taking more responsibility for their own actions instead of always blaming others. eg I spilt my hot coffee, who can I sue and blame. Not surprising really though when even the (allegedly) most important/powerful person in the country (Obama) complains he can't get things done because his hands are tied - what a shoddy example of a leader. Short of some real leadership that takes responsibility and sets an example I don't see it improving.

I don't mind playing my small part in that, by minimising my exposure to USD, US investments and even US products. Just hope more people start to do likewise until collectively enough people tell the US government to **** off in their arrogance and meddling

Cheers

Fletch

Eventually there will be enough people in the world telling the US government to stick their rules and finding alternatives and telling them to stick their currency...

...like the Scottish Single Malt Pound

[Naam]

Another false misleading headline from Thai Visa

America is making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

No, stupid Thai Bank employees are making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

multinational banks applied the W-8 BEN regulation 20 years ago when your portfolio held any U.S. assets.

it's a simple thing and nothing to bitch, whinge, whine or complain about

[JimGant]

I expect any non-Thai/farang person may end up seeing this form

According to the wife, in her conversation with her Bangkok Bank teller friend, all applicants have to fill out the initial form, as the dual citizen is also being targeted. And, of course, the largest community of dual citizens in Thailand are Thais, the majority probably with US-Thai dual citizenship.

One of the the so-called "indicia" to identify a potential "US person" is place of birth. I don't know if the form the banks are using asks for place of birth (?) -- but if so, and you answer "US," the FATCA rules require further investigation. But, of course, dual citizens can just lie on the form, with probably no one the wiser.

Interestingly, one of the FATCA indicia is the flow of money -- but it's the flow from abroad into the US. You would think that the indicia would be the other way around, especially if all the money in your Thai accounts has come from the US.....

I understand why the form ... to smoke out people with any connection to the USA ... but imagine if lots of countries did this ... so many forms!

Well, pretty soon Thai banks will be sending their foreign customer information all over the world, as more and more countries become enamored with the benefits of FATCA reporting, and adopt the "Common Reporting Standard."

The starting date for various obligations under the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is July 1, 2014. Some associate this date with a long and weary process that started back in 2010 with the passage of the United States HIRE Act, but it also marks a milestone in the ever increasing movement towards greater tax transparency. Even before this date, another significant milestone is set to occur -- the release of the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) in February 2014 by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Like US FATCA, the CRS will require financial institutions around the globe to play a central role in providing tax authorities with greater access and insight into taxpayer financial account data including the income earned in these accounts.

http://www.pwc.com/en_US/us/financial-services/publications/fatca-publications/assets/pwc-tax-insights-common-reporting-standard.pdf

Tax cheats of the world, in unison: "Thanks a phucking lot, you bloody Yankees."

[Chuckles78]

The same questions apply at Swiss banks for US citizens after the US forced Swiss banks to reveal bank accounts of US citizens who deposited money to avoid tax.

I'm guessing many countries will use these forms from now on.

[Soutpeel]

Another false misleading headline from Thai Visa

America is making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

No, stupid Thai Bank employees are making citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account

oh dear what would you have preferred....America strong arming banks to make citizens of all countries fill out a form when creating a new account ?

"If an institution does not comply, the U.S. will impose a 30% withholding tax on all its transactions concerning U.S. securities, including the proceeds of sale of securities."

[AyG]

Of course they have to ask everyone. If they only asked USA citizens, how would they find people who had renounced US citizenship?

I thought that to renounce their citizenship individuals had to settle things financially with Uncle Sam first.

It's very much a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, requiring everyone, regardless of nationality, to fill in such a form.

If the USA didn't have such a greedy, grasping attitude on taxation, taxing individuals on their worldwide income, things would be much simpler. The only other country that does this is Eritrea.

[jayceenik]

I'm a Belgian living in LOS.

Many years back I went to Belgium for a vacation.

I thought I'd take the opportunity to deposit a couple thousand US$ cash I had left over from previous vacations in the US.on the account I've had with a bank there for countless years

Cannot do they told me. I had to go to a money changer to get Euros that then I could deposit on my account.

I was pretty annoyed and queried why the new rule. It's forced by the US they told me ...

[Pib]

As a farang/American, I've went into many Thai bank branches over the years to do transactions and/or open accounts. Branches where any capability of reading or understanding English or any other language other than Thai seemed to be practically zero and considering banks now want to ensure they cover their butts for FACTA purposes...and since quite a few people have dual citizenship---I can see where a bank may make it a policy that all non-Thai customers (that is, any person who can't produce a Thai ID card) will be presented with the FACTA related forms when opening a new accounts.

Thai banks may not want to take the chance that all of their employees can properly distinguish between a U.S. passport, a U.K. passport, a Canadian passport, a Australian passport, a whatever farang passport. Around a month ago I opened a new account at a Krungsri branch on the ground floor of ChaengWattana/Bangkok immigration and no one on that day could speak even a little bit of English...but they were very nice and professional...provided me the FACTA forms to complete...and one bank rep told me she didn't understand the FATCA thing...see was just complying with the bank's new policy. I had a kind of a repeat "no English understanding" at another Krungsri branch here in Bangkok just last week regarding a deposit problem (not FACTA related) ...just no significant English capability (not even a little bit of English capability) to be found in the branch, but we worked through my issue since I know enough Thai to be dangerous.

And I expect any farang coming in with this Thai wife, the Thai wife will probably be presented with the forms also since she could have dual citizenship like the citizenship of her spouse--like my wife who started off as Thai citizen only...got married to me (an American citizen) a thousand years ago...and now has American citizenship also.

Yeap, I expect in many cases the FACTA related forms will be presented to certain customers in order to cover the bank's FACTA butt especially when opening a new account...and probably for the next year or two trying to accomplish the "due diligence" aspect of FACTA agreements to identify Americans with foreign accounts...accounts which were opened even before FACTA went into effect 1 July 14.

[55Jay]

The more I look at the business world, the more I think just stay away from the US and USD. They're taking the world in the wrong direction on so many levels.

Fortunately for non-US citizens, the US and their currency are past their peak and declining in world importance, so it's only a matter of time. But could be a slow process. Things like FATCA just accelerate it, which ironically may be no bad thing for the rest of us. Eventually there will be enough people in the world telling the US government to stick their rules and finding alternatives and telling them to stick their currency

Nothing against your average American. It's down mainly to their government. But then again countries often end up with the governments they deserve. So collectively for their sake (and ours too shorter term) I hope they start taking more responsibility for their own actions instead of always blaming others. eg I spilt my hot coffee, who can I sue and blame. Not surprising really though when even the (allegedly) most important/powerful person in the country (Obama) complains he can't get things done because his hands are tied - what a shoddy example of a leader. Short of some real leadership that takes responsibility and sets an example I don't see it improving.

I don't mind playing my small part in that, by minimising my exposure to USD, US investments and even US products. Just hope more people start to do likewise until collectively enough people tell the US government to **** off in their arrogance and meddling

Cheers

Fletch

Fletch, I've got the impression you are, or were, working in the banking sector here in Thailand? If not, sorry, but if so, do you have any insight into how Thai banks safeguard sensitive data and information? Is there a policy or procedure for shredding and/or burning documents when no longer needed?

Not that the US Gov and in many cases of late, the US private sector, has an unblemished record on data security, just wondering what the benchmark is here. Obviously concerned about how the sensitive data on these IRS forms will be handled by Thai banks, and if transmitted digitally, what we could expect to happen to the local hard copies once no longer needed.

[AyG]

I can see where a bank may make it a policy that all non-Thai customers (that is, any person who can't produce a Thai ID card) will be presented with the FACTA related forms when opening a new accounts.

That wouldn't work since a person with a Thai ID card could still have dual Thai/US citizenship.

[Pib]

I can see where a bank may make it a policy that all non-Thai customers (that is, any person who can't produce a Thai ID card) will be presented with the FACTA related forms when opening a new accounts.

That wouldn't work since a person with a Thai ID card could still have dual Thai/US citizenship.

True, but the probability they are also American goes way down unless there are other indicators like applying for a joint account with a farang spouse.

[Pib]

Go to this weblink to pull up a short Citi briefing talking about Participating Foreign Financial Institutions (PFFI) "due diligence" under FATCA. All Thai banks are now PFFI's. Such as on slide #5 they talk about 1 and 2 year time frames to get certain things done like collecting the forms already mentioned in this thread...and Slide #13 the "indicators" banks could use to determine if FACTA forms are required.

I expect Thai banks will take full advantage of the 1 to 2 year timeframe to complete all of the due diligence required which if you are American (like me) and have Thai banks accounts opened before FACTA forms became part of new accounts openings, well, don't be surprised if it might take 1 or 2 more years before your bank may ask you to complete some FACTA forms. And I expect each Thai bank will handle it a little bit differently...and if you have less than $50,000 worth of baht in your accounts you may never be contacted.

For me, all the bank accounts I opened before FACTA was implemented 1 July 14--and these accounts are still open--the banks have not contacted me about completion of FACTA forms and I'm still going to the banks to do certain transactions. But when opening a new account recently at Krungsri the FACTA forms were required during the account opening.

I've attached a few of the key slides below talking about due dilegence...but go to above weblink for the whole briefing.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Pib

[Mojomor]

This type of stuff is extremely annoying. All these extra forms increase cost and this cost is paid, not by the USA, not by the Banks, but by the customers.

That's you and me!

Yeah ... next time you see an American wag an accusatory finger at him ... you cost me a 50 satang!

That's a joke --- right.

I wouldn't bother, as my experience of Americans, sadly, is that many don't realise, they are expected to repay their debts. Perhaps it's bad example by the US Government which keeps printing more IOUs to give to other nations.

The cheapest service charge I ever got from a Thai Bank is the 20 baht for using my ATM in another province. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the nature of the 50 satang charge, to which you refer.

[ravip]

But I just think it's a bit cheeky for the United States of America to make people from other countries comply with the ridiculous standards it imposes on its own citizens.

That is their forte - I mean the US

[fletchsmile]

Fletch, I've got the impression you are, or were, working in the banking sector here in Thailand? If not, sorry, but if so, do you have any insight into how Thai banks safeguard sensitive data and information? Is there a policy or procedure for shredding and/or burning documents when no longer needed?

Not that the US Gov and in many cases of late, the US private sector, has an unblemished record on data security, just wondering what the benchmark is here. Obviously concerned about how the sensitive data on these IRS forms will be handled by Thai banks, and if transmitted digitally, what we could expect to happen to the local hard copies once no longer needed.

Jay,

It's not something I get that involved with to be honest. Thai banks do have policies on client confidentiality, sensitive information and various other related compliance policies. Breaches of those policies do happen though.

I'd rate Thailand above countries like Vietnam and Indonesia on this, but probably not up to Singapore standards. Then again even in Singapore and even with reputable banks mistakes happen. Stan Chart Singapore were pulled up a while back for someone losing confidential information about clients on discs and were fined for it.

Not something I worry about much myself really.

Cheers

Fletch

Edited September 21, 2014 by fletchsmile

[JimGant]

True, but the probability they are also American goes way down unless there are other indicators like applying for a joint account with a farang spouse.

Interesting. The wife's recent visit to the bank, to see her teller friend, witnessed a Thai female lambasting the teller as to why she had to have her privacy violated by filling out the US related FATCA form. She was told: "It's certainly less a privacy violation than the info provided in a new financial account application. Just basically answer "no, no, no," and you don't progress to the more intrusive W-9 stage."

The teller told the wife that this Thai female applicant was married to a Swiss. So, I have a feeling, all applicants, including Thais, have to fill out the FATCA form. But, yes, some bank managers, noting the waste of paper saying "no, no, no," may waive the requirement for [some] Thais, in hopes his frugality is noted by higher ups. But, this may be skirting the "due diligence" and "know your customer" criteria.....

Oh, the wife asked for a copy of a blank FATCA application, but was told it was bank proprietary material, particularly the back pages, where presumably "due diligence" guidance is found.

[Naam]

the W-8 BEN is not a FATCA form. it exists since decades and is meant to prevent that a foreign investor who holds U.S. assets pays tax on their proceeds. the form itself as well as the instructions can be downloaded from this IRS website:

http://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben/

[AyG]

the W-8 BEN is not a FATCA form. it exists since decades and is meant to prevent that a foreign investor who holds U.S. assets pays tax on their proceeds.

If only that were true. In reality, one pays 15% or 30% tax in most circumstances having completed the form - a penalty for foreigners investing in America.