Engine oil is consistently overfilled by the dealer

[Spoonman]

Its not Iceland, all clonkers start 1st click. Even CAT Earthmovers.

Pre common rail will require some warmth before that start, including many many CAT products that are out in the field.

Why talk <deleted> all the time ?

[Ace of Pop]

Rubbish its not cold enough here.

[bkkjames]

If I don't wait the few seconds and turn it over it doesn't fire up so smoothly. If I wait the 5 seconds... It does. No idea why.

Sent from my LG-P970 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Ace of Pop]

You just aint Lucky Jim. 30 Years ago my old Nissan started first turn.If the battery is max and injectors clean they all start first twist.We had crappy diesel back then.

[pgrahmm]

The newer vehicles have mutiple systems feedback, solenoids, modules that have to "check off" to certain parameters to allow fuel enrichment during the warm up cycle (closed loop) - controlling the engine until warmed up then going into open loop.....feedback is still going on throughout the driving cycle but cold starting/running/driving is a more difficult task for the engine ......Some maunfacturers are more precise/sophisticated in their systems - others are not.......some favor one technology - others favor another.....really no right or wrong way as long as they work and get the desired result.....

Engines are designed to run at warm/full operating temperatures so the closed loop is needed because we don't want to wait - just get & go.....

[ktm jeff]

Many engines on cars and bikes have to do a pre-run check. Turn on ignition , wait till ECU check and/or heater lights go out (except parking brake light ETC) , start. Just a few seconds waiting and it allows engine program to start up "clean".

[Kwasaki]

Even when it's overfilled with oil.

[ClutchClark]

You just aint Lucky Jim. 30 Years ago my old Nissan started first turn.If the battery is max and injectors clean they all start first twist.We had crappy diesel back then.

30 years ago? I thought they were called Datsun and their first diesel was around 1987.

Atleast in the US.

First small diesels for passenger vehicle/small truck applications were VW in 1978. I owned one.

Edited September 30, 2014 by ClutchClark

[transam]

Many engines on cars and bikes have to do a pre-run check. Turn on ignition , wait till ECU check and/or heater lights go out (except parking brake light ETC) , start. Just a few seconds waiting and it allows engine program to start up "clean".

Hmmmmmmm, my Toyota don't need any of that and it's 7 years old now......

BUT, it ain't over filled with oil...

Edited September 30, 2014 by transam

[Ace of Pop]

You just aint Lucky Jim. 30 Years ago my old Nissan started first turn.If the battery is max and injectors clean they all start first twist.We had crappy diesel back then.

30 years ago? I thought they were called Datsun and their first diesel was around 1987.

Atleast in the US.

First small diesels for passenger vehicle/small truck applications were VW in 1978. I owned one.

There was always the Nissan Company. Datsun was a brand name used for Export Vehicles.They had a Choke Pull thing, just like a Benzine Car till the C/Rail came out.Pull It Push it, it never made any difference.

[BSJ]

Has the original poster returned to thank everyone for sharing our combined knowledge on all things mechanical....and oil in the engine?

[whaleboneman]

Overfilling the oil is not a problem on dry sump or total loss systems. The issue with over-filling is usually the the reduced airspace in the sump causing it to pressurise slightly. That reduces the pressure differential between above and below a piston on it's power-stroke. It also means that oil-seals which are designed for an unpressurised situation will be subject to this sump pressure and likely fail fairly quickly.

Where did you read that...?

I didn't read it --- I wrote it

I was pretty sure you had made it up.

[whaleboneman]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Hello! Hello! SIMPLE AS SH##T, My Isuzu dealer, changes the oil plus any other service(filter) refills with oil then after a brief warm up run + a rest inserts a graduated tube into the dipstick tube and then electrically pumps any excess oil out of the engine. Result always correct oil level. Wake up all you theorists and find a good service centre.

a service center that regularly overfills an engine and has to pump it out is "good" to you? I have always changed my own oil (even in brand new cars) and can tell you that I have never had to pump out any excess. I also fill my filter before installing.

I've always wanted to do that too, but never had the guts to. I mean for a new car still under warranty. So right off from a brand new car, you always do your own maintenance and forget about the warranty?

Because I am one of the few guys too, who like to work on my own cars so I am 100% sure it is how I want it to be. Everytime I go into the dealer to let some mechanic work on my car, I am always uneasy, knowing that yes... my car is getting maintained, but the mechanic is causing other harm to it in some way, either through spills, over torqueing, or wrong parts/oils.

So I would like to hear your story.

And for some reason, I believe if my car never goes to the dealer, it could be used longer. Just have a feeling they purposely "slowly damage" my car, so I can take it in for repairs in the future when warranty runs out.

I don't know about the rules in Thailand, but in Canada it's perfectly acceptable to do your own service on a new car and keep the warranty valid as long as you document and keep receipts and to be safe, buy spares from dealer. I especially like to do my own brakes. I know when i do a job it's not in a rush and it's good to go.

[whaleboneman]

It's very doubtful it'll do any harm. 9 mm isn't very much especially on a gasoline engine.

Not worth worrying about.

The Toyota manual is very specific about this: anything above the high-level mark is "overfilled". And I beg to differ: 9mm represents roughly a third of the distance on the dipstick between the low-level and the high-level mark, which would imply that the engine has 33% more oil than it should.

In my experience, the difference between low and full is usually about 1 liter. So in your case, the engine has 1/3 liter extra oil and not 33% extra. And I have never heard of a rod being bent by too much oil. Someone is dreaming there.

Wrong on both counts it is 33% if it's 1/3rd and just because YOU (who ever YOU are?) hasn't heard of it happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I have personally seen bent rods from this very circumstance so I guess YOU'RE not as well versed as you think since YOU never have seen one.. Suspect you must be dreaming..

So I guess you think that it's empty when at the low mark? Sump capacity: 5 liters. low mark to high mark: 1 liter.

I've seen plenty of bent and broken rods in my time but it is almost always because of seizure.

Please enlighten me by pointing out a documented reference if you can.

[WarpSpeed]

Also, when they change the oil and filter they start the engine to fill the filter up and then top up. But a lot of that oil will still be in oil galleries, lifters etc, so if you drive home, leave it for a while, oil will drain back into the sump and perhaps be a tad high on the stick. Soon as you start the engine, after a couple of seconds, that level will drop.

I'd never let them do this, that moment of running the engine dry ads up to a much shorter life span for the engine, not to day but definitely tomorrow down the road, the filter should always be filled with oil first before installing. Another major reason I do my own oil changes.

Except it doesn't work when you have a horizontally mounted filter--the oil spills out.

So many of these new engines have such small filters nowadays, its not like the old ones that had about a quart capacity. But its a good practice when its possible.

Not to belabor a point but in this case you just pour the oil into the filter tube directly, it leads directly to the oil pump so now it's primed immediately when cranked having forced out any trapped air. I'd still pour some into the filter though as it aids in saturating the filter which speeds up the oiling process.

[ClutchClark]

You just aint Lucky Jim. 30 Years ago my old Nissan started first turn.If the battery is max and injectors clean they all start first twist.We had crappy diesel back then.

30 years ago? I thought they were called Datsun and their first diesel was around 1987.

Atleast in the US.

First small diesels for passenger vehicle/small truck applications were VW in 1978. I owned one.

There was always the Nissan Company. Datsun was a brand name used for Export Vehicles.They had a Choke Pull thing, just like a Benzine Car till the C/Rail came out.Pull It Push it, it never made any difference.

Thanks !

[WarpSpeed]

The Toyota manual is very specific about this: anything above the high-level mark is "overfilled". And I beg to differ: 9mm represents roughly a third of the distance on the dipstick between the low-level and the high-level mark, which would imply that the engine has 33% more oil than it should.

In my experience, the difference between low and full is usually about 1 liter. So in your case, the engine has 1/3 liter extra oil and not 33% extra. And I have never heard of a rod being bent by too much oil. Someone is dreaming there.

Wrong on both counts it is 33% if it's 1/3rd and just because YOU (who ever YOU are?) hasn't heard of it happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I have personally seen bent rods from this very circumstance so I guess YOU'RE not as well versed as you think since YOU never have seen one.. Suspect you must be dreaming..

So I guess you think that it's empty when at the low mark? Sump capacity: 5 liters. low mark to high mark: 1 liter.

I've seen plenty of bent and broken rods in my time but it is almost always because of seizure.

Please enlighten me by pointing out a documented reference if you can.

Where is it that you read that I think it's empty when it reaches the low mark? I am your documented reference and no less valid then any one I might post from the Internet in spite of your attempts to challenge otherwise, I don't have to validate my life time of empirical experience to make it true to you or anyone else. Did you now it also starves Hp as well? It is one reason many racing cars have dry sumps when allowed by rule.

[ClutchClark]

Also, when they change the oil and filter they start the engine to fill the filter up and then top up. But a lot of that oil will still be in oil galleries, lifters etc, so if you drive home, leave it for a while, oil will drain back into the sump and perhaps be a tad high on the stick. Soon as you start the engine, after a couple of seconds, that level will drop.

I'd never let them do this, that moment of running the engine dry ads up to a much shorter life span for the engine, not to day but definitely tomorrow down the road, the filter should always be filled with oil first before installing. Another major reason I do my own oil changes.

Except it doesn't work when you have a horizontally mounted filter--the oil spills out.

So many of these new engines have such small filters nowadays, its not like the old ones that had about a quart capacity. But its a good practice when its possible.

Not to belabor a point but in this case you just pour the oil into the filter tube directly, it leads directly to the oil pump so now it's primed immediately when cranked having forced out any trapped air. I'd still pour some into the filter though as it aids in saturating the filter which speeds up the oiling process.

Hey...wait a minute...you already responded to this one a week ago.

;-)

[WarpSpeed]

Yeah well, memory and all that.

[Kwasaki]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Has the original poster returned to thank everyone for sharing our combined knowledge on all things mechanical....and oil in the engine?

Yeah annoying ain't it, his probably still over oiled after reading this on TV and has gone and overdosed.

[BSJ]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Has the original poster returned to thank everyone for sharing our combined knowledge on all things mechanical....and oil in the engine?

Yeah annoying ain't it, his probably still over oiled after reading this on TV and has gone and overdosed.

Over oiled, overdosed......whatever!

[whaleboneman]

"Where is it that you read that I think it's empty when it reaches the low mark? I am your documented reference and no less valid then any one I might post from the Internet in spite of your attempts to challenge otherwise, I don't have to validate my life time of empirical experience to make it true to you or anyone else. Did you now it also starves Hp as well? It is one reason many racing cars have dry sumps when allowed by rule."

I didn't read that, I guessed it. When the oil on the dipstick is 9mm high I believe the engine is overfilled by 1/3 of a liter or so. I thought that you had stated it was 33% overfilled which could amount to 2 liters-a big difference. Sorry if that wasn't what you claimed.

Many times I have seen people, without any background in failure analysis jump to conclusions when they experience a meltdown. I would actually be interested in hearing about your bent rod as I have never heard of such a case before. To my knowledge, only if the engine was so overfilled that oil entered the combustion chamber and cause hydro-lock could a rod be bent. Never from a hammer effect.

As far as starving HP- well that's too obvious.

[seedy]

I would actually be interested in hearing about your bent rod as I have never heard of such a case before. To my knowledge, only if the engine was so overfilled that oil entered the combustion chamber and cause hydro-lock could a rod be bent. Never from a hammer effect.

This has been my experience also. Have seen diesel conrods bent like a banana after the engine ingested water.

Seen fuel car aluminum rods broken from a blower explosion.

Even seen engines swallow valves and the rods have not broken - pistons take a beating tho'!!

Not to say that WarpSpeed has not seen this, as he has more experience in the auto racing world than me.

[WarpSpeed]

So what is there to tell? It happens, so now I've told you about it...

[Spoonman]

How does a rod bend from an over filled sump, the fluid would have to enter the combustion chamber to achieve this.

[transam]

How does a rod bend from an over filled sump,

It don't......

[pgrahmm]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

[Spoonman]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

[pgrahmm]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

More thinking about cavitating - bypassing the rings and "locking" = would have to be grossly overfilled but enough for it to start......

Trying to remember what exactly happened in a similar event/mishap I was asked to investigate (forget whether asked by a manufacturer or to assist BAR) - but it was years ago and the only time I'd been even remotely experienced something weird like that.....

[Spoonman]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

More thinking about cavitating - bypassing the rings and "locking" = would have to be grossly overfilled but enough for it to start......

Trying to remember what exactly happened in a similar event/mishap I was asked to investigate (forget whether asked by a manufacturer or to assist BAR) - but it was years ago and the only time I'd been even remotely experienced something weird like that.....

Really, cavitating and bypassing the oil control rings.... I reckon that happens very rarely, in anycase the rings are rooted so the engine needed a rebuild anyways.