Asian suspects raped English tourist

[Amusements]

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Something is amiss here. a quote from one of todays press releases

"He said that after the reconstruction of the crime scene on Friday, the case had progressed and the police had not ruled out anyone. Officers even took DNA samples of more than 20 local women, British media reported."

I read this through twice so I was not misreading. After withdrawing the FBI request due to the new found in-house knowledge re using DNA, they found semen in one of the victims...... then they are doing DNA testing on 20 women ?????? Do they think that these women are going to provide a match for the semen found in the victim.....

Is this not beyond consideration? ... or the women of Koh Tao a little different?

Maybe the book they found this morning on "How to Do DNA Testing" should be reread.

At first reading of course it does seem strange to test the women. However, as DNA can trace blood lines, what if they found a DNA compatible trace in one of the women? Would that not narrow the search down to her family line and possibly someone who had already left the island? Maybe not so off the ball park as it first seems - except for the fact that we are assuming logical thinking from the BIB!

Exactly what I thought. I have seen a number of documentaries where families (male & FEMALE) DNA have been a close match to a perpetrator, and therefore help illuminate suspects as well as narrow down possible suspects. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/familial-searching

[partington]

Finally!

And for the person on the other thread that dismissed my post on exactly this matter and suggested this was not possible with DNA tests, well . . .

This was me, and to be honest I have a lot of doubts about what is reported here.

I have read several accounts of current research in forensic DNA profiling since my post on this, and all of them seem to confirm what my original post said.

What I said was that while some DNA markers are apparently more common in some ethnic groups than others, and can give a suggestion of ethnicity, they are not reliable enough to be used as evidence or to exclude suspects, and are not routine.

I gave a reference, admittedly from 2004, which summarised this. I know research into other techniques is going on, and such tests may be available routinely in the future , they are not now. In three forensic DNA textbooks I have not been able to find any such reliable tests described suggesting this is not currently considered any more than a research level possibility.

I was just now able to pick up this non-scientific summary from the (current 2012) New Zealand Government Environmental Science and Research Department (ESR) website -forensic science section- which seems to say exactly the same thing:

"Is it possible to tell the ethnic origin of a person from their DNA profile?

Particular DNA alleles may be more common in one ethnic group than another which may give some indication of a person's ethnic group, however there is considerable overlap between races so it is not yet possible to say that a DNA profile must have come from a member of a particular ethnic group. Further complicating this is the fact that a person will not necessarily look as if they are a member of the ethnic group that is indicated by their heritage and their DNA. Attempts are being made by some international laboratories to develop methods to accurately determine a person's race from their DNA but these techniques are not currently used by ESR."

http://www.esr.cri.nz/competencies/forensicscience/dna/Pages/DNAfaq.aspx

I hope an expert can come along and give definitive information on this. I tend not to trust statements by the Thai police filtered through the Thai media as being scientifically accurate.

EDIT: OK just read post #43 form Heijoshin confirming this - probably knows more about it than most here, SHould have read the rest of thread before posting! I'm guessing New Zealand forensic expertise must be at least equal to Thailand's, so if they can't do it, how can the Thais?

Edited September 20, 2014 by partington

[Interman]

Am I the only one here who thinks that DNA from semen does not necessarily amount to rape and death. Could have been consensual

[Equalizer]

It is a sorry state of affairs when a country with a population of over 60 million initially refuses to accept one of its own citizens may be responsible for a crime committed within that said country and rather initially direct the blame on a few immigrants and paying foreign tourists. This has to stop. These careless senior officials who make these comments are intellectually incompetent idiots who embarrass their own country and citizens with loose lips and zero thought. Sometimes saying nothing is the best policy, who are they trying to impress? Themselves DuHHHHHHH

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and posts containing overly derogatory generalizations have been removed. A post using all caps has been removed as well.

[pasak]

Right, so the suspects are of the Mongoloid race, and not Caucasians. Okay, not all Americans are Caucasians (Caucasians are people with European ancestry, or who are indigenous to Europe).

Basically, the guys who did this might be Chinese from America, or indeed, Chinese from Britain or Europe. It doesn't actually mean that they are Thai or Chinese/Thais.

"It doesn't actually mean that they are Thai ..."

Here at Thai Visa that conclusion was foregone. No one ever dies in Thailand except at the hands of a Thai criminal. In fact most deaths world-wide can somehow be blamed on Thais.

Lot's of bitter farang here who are unable to cope, but find comfort in automatically blaming all problems on Thai people. Rationality is not a hallmark of Thai bashing farang.

Nothing can humble you, can it Suradit69. A far cry from the ways of Buddhism.

You have a rather unpersuasive and illogical way of making your point.

Would that have something to do with the mongoloid in you?

Edited September 20, 2014 by pasak

[jaapfries]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

\

Spot on, tomyummer; they could have left those very intimate details out of the public domain, for Pete's Sake ! ! ! I feel so sorry for the parents here ! ! ! ! !

[Lupatria]

Why the (usual TV) sarcasm gentlemen?...There was hard evidence that this crime was possibly committed by their friends from the UK. OK resume drinking.

Are you sure the words 'hard evidence' and 'possibly' work together well ?

[Lukecan]

Well the three stooges could do a better investigation. They are now testing the women on the island? No way they're gonna bust a Thai male for this are they. It's got to be a migrant woman. Jeez, 5 days have gone by and they still won't check out the Thai males that could've been responsible. Ain't gonna get solved, that's what I think. A small island with very few inhabitants, this could have and should have been solved within 48 hours, but when you won't look at the obvious culprits, you aren't gonna solve it. Must be some mighty connected person who committed this with so much protection.

I don't think a mighty connected person from a well off family would kill and rape someone. Doesn't make sense. If it was mafia style shooting, or involved a racketeering ring then you could say this.

The Thai police is just incompetent.

[dondon950]

I do not know this area at all.. but unless it was a gang, it is strange that anybody would target 2 people. There is a possibility that the male was swimming in the sea.. the female was approached by somebody known or unknown to her.. they may have even thought that she was there on her own at first and targeted her. Then it's only after, that they realised she was not alone.. could explain how the male was unclothed... that he was hit around the head and drowned as he was trying to get back to the beach to help her. No bashing please.. just saying they may not have been attacked at same time and could also explain different weapons used

[alanrchase]

Well the three stooges could do a better investigation. They are now testing the women on the island? No way they're gonna bust a Thai male for this are they. It's got to be a migrant woman. Jeez, 5 days have gone by and they still won't check out the Thai males that could've been responsible. Ain't gonna get solved, that's what I think. A small island with very few inhabitants, this could have and should have been solved within 48 hours, but when you won't look at the obvious culprits, you aren't gonna solve it. Must be some mighty connected person who committed this with so much protection.

I don't think a mighty connected person from a well off family would kill and rape someone. Doesn't make sense. If it was mafia style shooting, or involved a racketeering ring then you could say this.

The Thai police is just incompetent.

Every option is still open to my mind. DNA suggests Asian culprit.

Why go Mafia route. Hopefully time will tell. Unfortunately may never be solved.

[thhMan]

At least the BS can stop now and they can start testing the Thai folk...

[mrtoad]

Farce, but The BIB knew from the start. Cover up big style.They are clowns, but they will do everything to protect their masters.

[bander]

I have been waiting for a new theory that a mongoloid Caucasian male is behind the rape and murder, Thai police desperately trying to find a scapegoat who is not a Thai citizen.

When will they start to collect DNA from all the local male on the island?

And don't forget fishermen who was in the neighborhood on the night of the murder.

I remember three fishermen who raped an English girl on Koh Samui some years ago and beat her to death with a beach umbrella stick.

Maybe they got out of prison already, wouldn't surprise me.

[alanrchase]

At least the BS can stop now and they can start testing the Thai folk...

Why the Thai folk? Such blatant bigotry is awfull. Could be true and so be it. Possibly not.

[Lukecan]

Well the three stooges could do a better investigation. They are now testing the women on the island? No way they're gonna bust a Thai male for this are they. It's got to be a migrant woman. Jeez, 5 days have gone by and they still won't check out the Thai males that could've been responsible. Ain't gonna get solved, that's what I think. A small island with very few inhabitants, this could have and should have been solved within 48 hours, but when you won't look at the obvious culprits, you aren't gonna solve it. Must be some mighty connected person who committed this with so much protection.

I don't think a mighty connected person from a well off family would kill and rape someone. Doesn't make sense. If it was mafia style shooting, or involved a racketeering ring then you could say this.

The Thai police is just incompetent.

Every option is still open to my mind. DNA suggests Asian culprit.

Why go Mafia route. Hopefully time will tell. Unfortunately may never be solved.

Its probably a crime committed by a normal person, fisherman etc. Mighty connected asian with money, why would he kill and rape? He has so much to lose, he can get consensual sex anytime he wants, why risk it all. 99.9% of murder and rapes like these don't involve connected people. And mafias/rackeetering rings don't rape people.

So I doubt someone with power was involved.

Give one incidence where a rich/connected person murdered and raped an innocent victim?

[bander]

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Farce, but The BIB knew from the start. Cover up big style.They are clowns, but they will do everything to protect their masters.

Agree, Thai police should be working in a Circus instead of being cops.

[alanrchase]

Farce, but The BIB knew from the start. Cover up big style.They are clowns, but they will do everything to protect their masters.

Agree, Thai police should be working in a Circus instead of being cops.

Hard to give a sensible reply to such a stupid comment.

[pasak]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

\

Spot on, tomyummer; they could have left those very intimate details out of the public domain, for Pete's Sake ! ! ! I feel so sorry for the parents here ! ! ! ! !

The insensitivity of the reporting has been reprehensible throughout. But at the same time the world should know just how revolting and lowlife the culprit(s) are.

When the story broke there were a lot of people defending the integrity of the local Thais. Those people are thinner on the ground now as we hone in on the truth.

I think many posters are not familiar with just how degenerate Thai society has become.

Rape is becoming a daily occurrence in Thailand by Thais.

Only today, a Spanish girl raped by a taxi driver in Bangkok.

If the Thais cannot put a stop to such abhorrent behaviour then the rest of the world should vote with their feet and holiday elsewhere. There are plenty of other countries offering similar 'entertainment services' and with cleaner beaches and better food - and with a lower per capita quota of rapists.

[mrtoad]

Farce, but The BIB knew from the start. Cover up big style.They are clowns, but they will do everything to protect their masters.

Agree, Thai police should be working in a Circus instead of being cops.

Hard to give a sensible reply to such a stupid comment.

More to this than meets the eye.

Face

Not living in The West now

[Lukecan]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

\

Spot on, tomyummer; they could have left those very intimate details out of the public domain, for Pete's Sake ! ! ! I feel so sorry for the parents here ! ! ! ! !

If the Thais cannot put a stop to such abhorrent behaviour then the rest of the world should vote with their feet and holiday elsewhere. There are plenty of other countries offering similar 'entertainment services' and with cleaner beaches and better food - and with a lower per capita quota of rapists.

Care to give a few examples?

[bander]

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At least the BS can stop now and they can start testing the Thai folk...

My guess is that if they find the murderer and he is Thai, they will try to cover it up at any cost, to much at stake by the reputation of Thailand as peaceful tourist destination and so on.

[chongtak]

Finally!

And for the person on the other thread that dismissed my post on exactly this matter and suggested this was not possible with DNA tests, well . . .

I could not agree more.

[Scottish Gary]

The police would be just as well to say that the DNA reveals a male Burmese immigrant who works on Kao Tao because im dam sure one of them is going to take the rap for this.

Image the DNA was sent to the CIA and they said it belonged a white male or even worse a local Thai. That would be far too much like hard work so its easier just to fit someone up who is not going to rock the boat politically.........job done, pressure off

[bander]

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This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

\

Spot on, tomyummer; they could have left those very intimate details out of the public domain, for Pete's Sake ! ! ! I feel so sorry for the parents here ! ! ! ! !

If the Thais cannot put a stop to such abhorrent behaviour then the rest of the world should vote with their feet and holiday elsewhere. There are plenty of other countries offering similar 'entertainment services' and with cleaner beaches and better food - and with a lower per capita quota of rapists.

Care to give a few examples?

Cambodia,

Sihanoukville - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[greenchair]

Great work from the Thai police and forensic staff who working so hard to solve this crime. I praise all of the efforts that the Thai people are putting in each day and hour.

[alanrchase]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

\

Spot on, tomyummer; they could have left those very intimate details out of the public domain, for Pete's Sake ! ! ! I feel so sorry for the parents here ! ! ! ! !

The insensitivity of the reporting has been reprehensible throughout. But at the same time the world should know just how revolting and lowlife the culprit(s) are.

When the story broke there were a lot of people defending the integrity of the local Thais. Those people are thinner on the ground now as we hone in on the truth.

I think many posters are not familiar with just how degenerate Thai society has become.

Rape is becoming a daily occurrence in Thailand by Thais.

Only today, a Spanish girl raped by a taxi driver in Bangkok.

If the Thais cannot put a stop to such abhorrent behaviour then the rest of the world should vote with their feet and holiday elsewhere. There are plenty of other countries offering similar 'entertainment services' and with cleaner beaches and better food - and with a lower per capita quota of rapists.

So where else is rape not a daily occurance? Horrific but continues to happen. No police force will ever stop it. World we live in. Scared to live in or visit Thailand? Personally no problem.

[lucaswallachia]

Watching the CCTV of David it looks like he doesn't know the Asian guy that he shook hands with, that the Asian guy just put out his hand for David to shake.

And coming back the other way looks like he has food / water bottle so assuming he had money on him he was obviously stripped of his clothes, shoes, sunnies and money or wallet.

Edited September 20, 2014 by lucaswallachia

[Commerce]

I never read so many: 'I think', 'maybe', 'possibly', 'likely', 'perhaps', 'could have', and so forth rubbish and simply guessing posts.

This is a very sensitive issue.

Why don't most of the posters here just give it a rest and respect sensitivity, and leave it to where results belong or may come from?

I'm sure the British Embassy and British police and forensics experts are trying to work hard and advise Thai police about procedures.

Second guessing and passing on guesses helps in no way whatsoever.

Parents of other victims are reading everything here, to try to offer help in their past experiences; you should please respect that!

[NCFC]

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Koh Tao suspects 'Asian men'

THAILAND: The DNA found in a victim's body in the Koh Tao double murder belonged to two Asian men, according to deputy police chief Pol Gen Somyot Poompanmoung.

The test results from the semen found in the female victim's body indicated the suspects were Mongoloid and not Caucasian.

The results helped narrow down the search, said Pol Gen Somyot, who will become the national police chief on October 1.

Two Britons, Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were found dead on a beach on Koh Tao in Surat Thani province with severe head injuries on Monday morning (September 15).

Earlier, the autopsy on Ms Witheridge found semen from two people but subsequent DNA tests found no matches to any of the seven people detained — six Myanmar labourers and one Briton — shortly after the murders.

A cigarette butt found near the bodies on Friday (September 19) contained the DNA of Ms Witheridge and another person. It was believed the second person was someone she knew because the cigarette was shared.

Pol Gen Somyot was in Koh Tao earlier today (September 20) to follow up on the investigation.

He said that after the reconstruction of the crime scene on Friday, the case had progressed and the police had not ruled out anyone. Officers even took DNA samples of more than 20 local women, British media reported.

People on the island from tourists to fishermen and workers are being investigated, he said.

Police on Friday asked the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to help with DNA testing to identify racial markers but they later cancelled the request after succeeding in conducting the tests.

-- Phuket News 2014-09-20

"A cigarette butt found near the bodies on Friday (September 19) contained the DNA of Ms Witheridge and another person. It was believed the second person was someone she knew because the cigarette was shared"

Considering the remote location the bodies were found (away from the other party makers) the above for me would be the DNA of a person of considerable interest as it would be likely they would have been at the crime scene.

I read earlier that a cigarette butt not only contained DNA that matched semen in her body and that this butt had been shared by more than one person but that traces of lipstick were also found on the butt.

I've seen almost no one take up the case of the lipstick traces. Was this Hannah's lipstick? It should be fairly easy to confirm from her belongings. If so, then it suggests that she had social contact with her murderers before she was killed.So now the police need to find out who was in the area at the time by cross-questioning witnesses and trying to track everybody's movements on that night.