Decent & Affordbale Tablewine & Pricing for Restaurant?

[moonseeker]

A recurring discussion with friends, some of them really cheap, I am afraid. I am a ZERO when it comes to wine, but certainly we will have some people with knowledge they might be able to share. Opinions are so far apart, great if we can get a bit a wider view here on TV.

What brands to consider to serve in a mid-class restaurant?

What is correct size per serving? 1.5 dl? 2.0 dl?

What would an acceptable price range for the Pattaya market be per glass?

Thanks for any feedback. MS>

[boldface]

If you know nothing about wine, then select a good importer and go from there. There are quite a few in Pattaya already so go fish them out. For the price range it depends where your restaurant is, what food you will be serving and it's price etc. What is your definition of Mid Class restaurant? I'm of the type that I am not price conscious but very quality focused. If you serve me up a glass of the rubbish they sell in 7/11, you could be charging 20 baht a glass and I would still be peeved. However, you could be in the 200-400+ per glass range and as long as you are storing the wine correctly, using a decent clean glass, serving at a proper temperature for the wine, then I would be happy.

Serving size - I always prefer in the 125ML range. 6 glasses from a bottle basically.

If you are starting out, pick 2-3 wines and offer them all by the glass or bottle. Which ever sells best by the glass you will have your winner by letting the customers decide.

[moonseeker]

If you know nothing about wine, then select a good importer and go from there. There are quite a few in Pattaya already so go fish them out. For the price range it depends where your restaurant is, what food you will be serving and it's price etc. What is your definition of Mid Class restaurant? I'm of the type that I am not price conscious but very quality focused. If you serve me up a glass of the rubbish they sell in 7/11, you could be charging 20 baht a glass and I would still be peeved. However, you could be in the 200-400+ per glass range and as long as you are storing the wine correctly, using a decent clean glass, serving at a proper temperature for the wine, then I would be happy.

Serving size - I always prefer in the 125ML range. 6 glasses from a bottle basically.

If you are starting out, pick 2-3 wines and offer them all by the glass or bottle. Which ever sells best by the glass you will have your winner by letting the customers decide.

Thank you very much. Sorry, I did not ask for a specific restaurant. More a general inquiry, which brand of table-wines are popular and what the correct price structure would be, as my friends start this discussion wherever we go for dinner. Mostly mid-priced restaurants of all types. THX. MS>

[boldface]

Ahh well in that case, it far to subjective which is why you and your friends are having the conversation I guess. Nice conversation to have, and the answer would fall into two categories dependent upon the owner of a restaurant. If they know what they are doing they would put some thought into the house wine and price it accordingly. For those that have no idea about running a restaurant,, they will pick anything cheap, put it in the fridge, and over price it for what it is.

[craigt3365]

Decent and affordable wine just isn't available here due to the ridiculous alcohol tax laws. Many restaurants serve box wines, which are imported juice with alcohol added here in Thailand. I thinik Montclair is one. Barely drinkable, IMHO.

You might try Friendship and see what's on offer. They've got a pretty wide selection of wine. Should give you a good idea of what's available and what's not, and for what price.

[xylophone]

Decent and affordable wine just isn't available here due to the ridiculous alcohol tax laws. Many restaurants serve box wines, which are imported juice with alcohol added here in Thailand. I thinik Montclair is one. Barely drinkable, IMHO.

You might try Friendship and see what's on offer. They've got a pretty wide selection of wine. Should give you a good idea of what's available and what's not, and for what price.

You make some good points............Montclair is grape juice imported in large "bladders" from South Africa, fermented here in Thailand with local Roselle juice added, so on the label you will see "Fruit wine". That way it seems to get round some taxes, which are ruining things for wine drinkers here.

It and its ilk are "ok" if you were to drink them with local spicy food, but in a "mid-priced" restaurant they would be seen for what they are.

There are some reasonably priced wines from Chile and Argentina around so approaching an importer to supply those at wholesale would be my first move...........but as others have said, no real answer 'cos it is an hypothetical case!!

[craigt3365]

Thanks for that great explanation of Montclair and others like it! I'm a lover of box wines. Allows me to have 1 or 2 glasses with dinner without having to open an expensive bottle and only drink 1/2 or so. But this label of "fruit wine" has kinda turned me off.

Back in the US my favorite box wine wasn't cheap. But was also very good.

[SidJames]

Can anyone point me the direction of an importer?

I do like a drop & it's wallet-rape with the prices for a decent wine

[craigt3365]

I've got a contact with a fairly good importer in Bangkok. PM me if interested. I don't want to post their email in public as they are a relatively small business. My favs are the ones from Argentina, priced a bit above and below 500B/bottle for some pretty good stuff.

[xylophone]

Thanks for that great explanation of Montclair and others like it! I'm a lover of box wines. Allows me to have 1 or 2 glasses with dinner without having to open an expensive bottle and only drink 1/2 or so. But this label of "fruit wine" has kinda turned me off.

Back in the US my favorite box wine wasn't cheap. But was also very good.

Know exactly what you mean as have been a collector and drinker of wines for over 40 years, but not wanting/having to consume a full bottle every night here (as most do not improve when opened, so the next evening's drink is very average to say the least) I looked at boxed wines.

I can recommend one from Chile, Bodegas Centenarus (speller?) which is "real wine" and good drinking, at around a thousand baht or more for 3 litres it makes sense.

I would be interested in the wines from your importer in Bangkok if you would be so kind as to PM me details..........oh, and almost forgot, if you have a big Tesco Lotus near you, then check out the wines as they have been clearing out some stock and I have picked up some good wines at half price (Taylors Promised land 2010 and 2013 at 399 baht a bottle).

[GuyL]

SidJames, on 23 Sept 2014 - 16:47, said:

Can anyone point me the direction of an importer?

I do like a drop & it's wallet-rape with the prices for a decent wine

Here is one: http://www.siamgourmetparadox.com/

[craigt3365]

I just found an article with the wine supplier I use listed. They do deliver here in Pattaya, but the delivery charges have gone up a bunch. Luckily, I visit Bangkok every month, so pickup bottles when I'm there. Email her (Mari) and ask for her latest wine list. It's pretty extensive.

http://bk.asia-city.com/restaurants/article/wine-source

Wine by Vinum Lector

Why it beats going to a shop: This is a tiny boutique company that stocks the shelves of several wine shops and restaurants around town. They do a terrific newsletter, too.
Their focus: Table wine and premium stuff from bulk-producing regions like Australia and Chile, but also unusual stuff from Portugal, Spain, and Romania and affordable sauvignon blancs from Marlborough, New Zealand.
Our faves: Their Mussel Bay sauvignon blanc is good value for money, without sacrificing any of that strong passionfruit aroma typical of this varietal. Also try the Romanian cabernet sauvignon, Feteasca Neagra.
How to order: Six bottle minimum, delivery within 48 hours on work days. Email [email protected] to get a catalogue.

[uptheos]

Thanks for that great explanation of Montclair and others like it! I'm a lover of box wines. Allows me to have 1 or 2 glasses with dinner without having to open an expensive bottle and only drink 1/2 or so. But this label of "fruit wine" has kinda turned me off.

Back in the US my favorite box wine wasn't cheap. But was also very good.

Apart from grapes, what other fruits does it have in it?

[fosseway]

I do enjoy a glass, maybe two, of wine with my meal, the problem here is that most restaurants in Pattaya after opening a bottle, just replace the cork, or cap, and put it back in the fridge. They do not extract the air from the bottle to stop it oxidizing,

This may be OK for a fish and chip restaurant, as they could use it as a vinegar substitute.

[chris2004]

Thanks for that great explanation of Montclair and others like it! I'm a lover of box wines. Allows me to have 1 or 2 glasses with dinner without having to open an expensive bottle and only drink 1/2 or so. But this label of "fruit wine" has kinda turned me off.

Back in the US my favorite box wine wasn't cheap. But was also very good.

I thought all wine was just fermented fruit juice. Does it matter what it is called. I must admit i like the Mont Clair or Castle Creek at 120 baht a bottle instead of 1,000 baht a bottle.

[xylophone]

Thanks for that great explanation of Montclair and others like it! I'm a lover of box wines. Allows me to have 1 or 2 glasses with dinner without having to open an expensive bottle and only drink 1/2 or so. But this label of "fruit wine" has kinda turned me off.

Back in the US my favorite box wine wasn't cheap. But was also very good.

Apart from grapes, what other fruits does it have in it?

Montclair has juice from the plant called Roselle (Hibiscus sabdariffa) in it, other wines such as Jump Yards, Castle/Cedar Creek, Mar Y Sol, Peter Vella, Berri Estates, Jimberoo, Bodegas Valley (actually Australian), Kookaburra and more reds, have juice from dark fruits/berries in them.

It seems to be done to get round the Thai tax regime and thereby offer a cheaper product at retail level, however the problem is that many of these wines never really told you that they contained other fruit juice and it's only just recently with the newer arrivals that this has been clearly stated on the box/bottle. Having said that Montclair does not declare it, but the giveaway is in the term "Fruit Wine" which is on the box and bottle. Wherever you see this, the wine will have other fruit juice added to it.

Chris 2004 quote: "I thought all wine was just fermented fruit juice. Does it matter what it is called".

Wine is actually the name given to the product made from from fermented grape juice, whereas wine made from other fruits is known as "Fruit Wine". Personally I have nothing against Fruit Wine provided it is clearly labelled, however when I buy a bottle of what I believe to be wine made from grapes, that's exactly what I wanted to be.

This topic has been covered quite extensively on the "Montclair wine" thread and just about everything you want to know about this subject is on the the latter pages of that thread.

[craigt3365]

Whew! I never knew there was such a long discussion on Monclair! LOL

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639167-montclair-wine/

[peterb17]

Hi

Was given a business card whilst at one of the wine dinners at the Royal Cliff.

The World of Wine. They distribute wines for restaurant / hotels

They are based in Naklua Web site www.theworldofwine.co.th

Interestingly they state any profits go to local charities?

[xylophone]

I do enjoy a glass, maybe two, of wine with my meal, the problem here is that most restaurants in Pattaya after opening a bottle, just replace the cork, or cap, and put it back in the fridge. They do not extract the air from the bottle to stop it oxidizing,

This may be OK for a fish and chip restaurant, as they could use it as a vinegar substitute.

I had a similar experience to you a few years ago when I went into a little restaurant nearby and quite fancied a glass of wine with my meal, so I ordered a glass of the house wine (the only wine available).

Well it was truly awful, oxidised to the point where you could probably use it as paint stripper, so I called the waitress and told her about this and she duly took it away, which I thought was good. That thought was soon put to rest when I turned round and saw the owner of the restaurant pouring this wine back into a 2 L, almost empty, bottle of Italian plonk, from whence it originally came – – obviously going to keep it for another customer.

Needless to say I never went back to that restaurant!

[topt]

Whew! I never knew there was such a long discussion on Monclair! LOL

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639167-montclair-wine/

Thanks for reminding me with that link - I had not realised the discussion was still on-going.

If you haven't read through it there is a hell of a lot more in there then just Montclair - but you need to be quite interested in wine

[DisparateDan]

Having been "raised' at teacher's get togethers in UK on Chateau Urinoir I'm more than happy to glug Montclair, a box lasts me 2 months. recently being sold as table wine (half a glass) at Baht 100.

However, this is instructive

http://io9.com/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-heres-why-496098276

[topt]

Having been "raised' at teacher's get togethers in UK on Chateau Urinoir I'm more than happy to glug Montclair, a box lasts me 2 months. recently being sold as table wine (half a glass) at Baht 100.

However, this is instructive

http://io9.com/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-heres-why-496098276

I would sort of agree with most of the last line in the article "The upshot: screw the experts. Drink what tastes good/whatever you can afford." except I drink less wine here because I cannot afford what to me tastes good as often as I would like..............

[craigt3365]

Having been "raised' at teacher's get togethers in UK on Chateau Urinoir I'm more than happy to glug Montclair, a box lasts me 2 months. recently being sold as table wine (half a glass) at Baht 100.

However, this is instructive

http://io9.com/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-heres-why-496098276

I would sort of agree with most of the last line in the article "The upshot: screw the experts. Drink what tastes good/whatever you can afford." except I drink less wine here because I cannot afford what to me tastes good as often as I would like..............

Agreed. I drink what I like and don't care what the experts say. But! I've rarely found a super cheap wine I like. I've sampled wines in the $50-100 range and have found quite a few I don't like, but several that are absolutely amazing. Plus, no hangover the next day. Cheap red wine tends to give me a massive hangover!

[xylophone]

Having been "raised' at teacher's get togethers in UK on Chateau Urinoir I'm more than happy to glug Montclair, a box lasts me 2 months. recently being sold as table wine (half a glass) at Baht 100.

However, this is instructive

http://io9.com/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-heres-why-496098276

I would sort of agree with most of the last line in the article "The upshot: screw the experts. Drink what tastes good/whatever you can afford." except I drink less wine here because I cannot afford what to me tastes good as often as I would like..............

Also would agree with what you have said topt, especially the "drink what tastes good".

The thing about taste is that it varies between people and it is not only exclusive to wine. I can't stand Scotch or Brandy as it does absolutely nothing for me whatsoever, and other than just alcohol there are people who like strong cheeses, those who don't; spicy food and those who don't, and the list could go on and on for just about everything we put in our mouths.

I have no problem with drinking wine at the cheaper end of the scale, in fact a local restaurant who had a regular paella night would serve Montclair red, chilled, and it went perfectly well with this combination of seafood, chicken and rice (along with small quantities of various vegetables) and I could never imagine drinking a big hefty Aussie Red with this dish, because the Montclair suited it superbly.

I do enjoy the wines that offer me some taste/aromas of blackberries and blackcurrants and so on and seem to have many layers to them, rather than the more simple varieties, so that's why I look out for and try to enjoy the more expensive ones, as they seem to have these attributes.

As I said on the other thread, I have nothing against wines such as Montclair, other than the fact that many of them are sold under false pretences – – never disclosing that there is fruit mixed in with the wine, and one thing I don't like is being deceived.

[petercool]

post removed as offensive

[craigt3365]

If you are interested in wine delivered here in Pattaya, Matt from Wine Best Deals will be here tomorrow. Here's an example of some of his wines. I've never ordered from him before, but will get a few bottles from him tomorrow.

White:
Chile: Tierra del Fuego Sauvignon Blanc 2012 - was 800thb sale price 490thb
France:Chateau Valcombe Vermentino Marsanne 2012 - was 800thb sale price 500thb
Italy: Galassi Pinot Grigio 2012 - was 800thb sale price: 500thb
Italy: Romandiola Pignoletto Frizzante 2012 - was 900thb sale price: 500thb

Red:
Chile: Tierra del Fuego Carmenere 2012 - was 800thb sale price : 490thb
Argentina: Trapiche Astica Merlot Malbec 2012- was 850thb sale price: 550thb
Chile: Tierra del Fuego Cabernet Sauvignon Reserva 2012 - was 1000thb sale price: 590thb
Chile: Tierra del Fuego Cabernet Sauvignon Gran Reserva 2012 - was 1300thb sale price: 650thb
Italy: Bocelli Sangiovese IGT (Last 6) - was 1300thb sale price 700thb
Italy: Bucaro Montepulcinao d'Abruzzo (Last 6) - was 800thb sale price: 450thb
Italy: Era Nero D'Avola IGT Sicily Organic Wine(Last 5)- was 750thb sale price: 450thb
Italy: Ca Da Rajo Cabernet Sauvignon 2011 - was 800thb sale price: 500thb
Italy: Ca Da Rajo Cabernet Franc 2011 - was 800thb sale price: 500thb
Italy: Brichetto Sangiovese 2012 (Buy 12) - was 800thb sale price: 400thb
Italy: Galassi Montepulciano 2012 d'Abruzzo - was 800thb sale price: 500thb

[raro]

Being in the wine business myself, I can assure you that if you make the backwards calculation from a 500 Baht wine (i.e. Take the vat out, profit for the shop etc...) you will find out that the value of the wine is a fraction of the value of the bottle it is sold in.

If you double the price to about 1,000 Baht, the value at origin is about 20x higher.

For that very reason we don't trade with wines below 800 Baht.

[craigt3365]

Being in the wine business myself, I can assure you that if you make the backwards calculation from a 500 Baht wine (i.e. Take the vat out, profit for the shop etc...) you will find out that the value of the wine is a fraction of the value of the bottle it is sold in.

If you double the price to about 1,000 Baht, the value at origin is about 20x higher.

For that very reason we don't trade with wines below 800 Baht.

I've bought several bottles of wine from Argentina here. When we were in Argentina, we'd pay a few dollars for the bottle. Here? 500B or more for the exact same bottle. But, what can you do.

When in Italy, we'd great some pretty good wine for a few Euros, came in a fairly large bottle that you could take back and they'd refill it for you. great stuff...

[topt]

Being in the wine business myself, I can assure you that if you make the backwards calculation from a 500 Baht wine (i.e. Take the vat out, profit for the shop etc...) you will find out that the value of the wine is a fraction of the value of the bottle it is sold in.

If you double the price to about 1,000 Baht, the value at origin is about 20x higher.

For that very reason we don't trade with wines below 800 Baht.

Raro - a very, very long time ago when I was in the wine business on the retail side in the UK the independent retailers mark up on wine was 25-30%. I am guessing for major retailers now it is a lot higher but I have no evidence for that. Can you comment?

[craigt3365]

Being in the wine business myself, I can assure you that if you make the backwards calculation from a 500 Baht wine (i.e. Take the vat out, profit for the shop etc...) you will find out that the value of the wine is a fraction of the value of the bottle it is sold in.

If you double the price to about 1,000 Baht, the value at origin is about 20x higher.

For that very reason we don't trade with wines below 800 Baht.

Raro - a very, very long time ago when I was in the wine business on the retail side in the UK the independent retailers mark up on wine was 25-30%. I am guessing for major retailers now it is a lot higher but I have no evidence for that. Can you comment?

I'm sure he'll jump in soon, but he did a fantastic explanation for me earlier this year on the costs of importing wine here. Most of the difference between the price paid at point of origin and a store here goes into the governments pocket.

It's a ridiculous and complex formula. One that I believe is being reconsidered now...we'll see how that turns out.