NLA will be asked by NACC to impeach Ms Yingluck and other Pheu Thai ex-MPs

[langley]

never saw that one coming.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/763638-nla-grants-itself-open-ended-impeachment-power/#entry8441760

I can only hope that Ms. Yingluck and other Pheu Thai MPs are less naive than you seem to be.

They got at least four months by now to better prepare themselves, have their legal representatives prepared, etc., etc.

either you don't read posts entirely or you don't understand irony and mild sarcasm.

By now I think I've got you figured out, my dear chap.

I think it's neither irony nor sarcasm, more like obfuscated accusation. IMHO

You got it!

Hopefully, the Shinawatra clone will also get it when the NLA is finished with her.

[Robby nz]

Isn't the impeachment request premature?

This is what I understand:

1) Yingluck has not been found quilty in a court of law for negligent dereliction of duty in the rice pledge program. To date the prosecutor has declined to charge Yingluck and bring her to trial. But it seems the NACC has independent prosecurial powers to the extent that it can hire its own prosecutor to take the case to trial. Regardless, she has not been tried and\ found guilty. So is the grounds for impeachment is based on NACC allegations that she should be impeached?

2) With regards to the failed Pheu Thai Party MP's legislation to alter the way some senators are selected (proposed 100% elected vs. 50% appointed), the Supreme Court ruled that it was the PROCESS used to pass the legislation that was unconstitutional. The SC did not rule that it was the PROPOSAL itself that was unconstitutional as the 2007 Constitution provided for changes to the Constitution. Again, where is the criminality and conviction?

3) Finally, it is odd that NACC is asking that Yingluck to be impeached for attempting a change in the constitution that no longer exists. To those new TV readers, the 2007 Constitution doesn't exist because the military coup aborgated (threw out) the constitution in May 2014 and by its own perrogative created an Interim Constitution and a National Legislative Assembly in which the Senate no longer exists.

So what is the grounds for impeachment other than a political vendetta against the PTP and Yingluck?

Isn't the impeachment request premature ?

No. The requests were made some time ago to the senate but as the senate was disbanded it could not hear the cases.

As we now have a NLC which is acting as a parliament and senate they are able to hear the cases that the previous senate could not.

We await the result.

[thesetat2013]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Who exactly suffered during Yinglucks time in power? You? Your wife? Your children? Your dog?

Yes it was an expensive experience, but nobody was suffering? Apart from the country as a whole.

As for the impeachment, a complete waste of time and money. Since it can only remove her from power or ban her from politics for 5 years.

Removed she has been already, and I honestly think, she would only welcome a 5 year ban.

So a lot of hot air for nothing!!

I seem to recall a good many suffering farmers including their families. Some are still suffering and some preffered killing themselves to end the suffering of the YL populast scams.

Of which i think she should be criminally charged for. So how can you possibly say no one suffered during her rule here?

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ChrisY1]

I'll wait and see what developes....but I still think the rich and famous are pretty much untouchable...IMO, the same applies here to YL.

[aussieinthailand]

THE DEM'S: (AKA, NLA, NCC, and any other group in their pockets,) If we can't win by a vote, we'll have another coup and then throw you in out, and followed by a little bit of fancy judiciary acrobatics we can get our way again, hehehehehehe, throw enough mud and some will stick.

The people, (the voters) will get sick of this one day.

[whybother]

THE DEM'S: (AKA, NLA, NCC, and any other group in their pockets,) If we can't win by a vote, we'll have another coup and then throw you in out, and followed by a little bit of fancy judiciary acrobatics we can get our way again, hehehehehehe, throw enough mud and some will stick.

The people, (the voters) will get sick of this one day.

Yeah ... sure. Abhisit's actually in control of everything, isn't he?

[halloween]

THE DEM'S: (AKA, NLA, NCC, and any other group in their pockets,) If we can't win by a vote, we'll have another coup and then throw you in out, and followed by a little bit of fancy judiciary acrobatics we can get our way again, hehehehehehe, throw enough mud and some will stick.

The people, (the voters) will get sick of this one day.

It certainly seemed to be a good electoral strategy in 2011, accusing your opponents of the murders committed by your mercenaries during the insurgency you instigated and funded the previous year.

[MobileContent]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Not enough evidence and Yingluck is out of politics for sure.

To be fair, if the NLA impeaches Yingluck they surely have to go after Suthep as he destroyed the tourism industry for at least in Bangkok.

Corrupt government officials have always been send to an inactive post. Thaksin got screwed because after the coup he continued from overseas.

Why the NLA doesn't bring Thaksin back? Simple, they don't want him back.

[ramrod711]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Who exactly suffered during Yinglucks time in power? You? Your wife? Your children? Your dog?

Yes it was an expensive experience, but nobody was suffering? Apart from the country as a whole.

As for the impeachment, a complete waste of time and money. Since it can only remove her from power or ban her from politics for 5 years.

Removed she has been already, and I honestly think, she would only welcome a 5 year ban.

So a lot of hot air for nothing!!

You are correct about a 5 year ban being the worst punishment that she will face. She is rich and comes from a powerful family, she will never go to jail, if there was any danger of that she would be warned ahead of time so she could flee the country. You are wrong that nobody suffered, the money that was lost could have been used for social programs or better roads or a myriad of other items Thailand needs. The importance of impeachment is visual, a warning to the next band of thieves.

[oneday]

The NACC is like a dog with a bone. They just won't let this go.

Keep the hate coming guys...this is just exactly what they country does not need.

[Krataiboy]

Posts bringing HM the King into the discussion have removed, don't even go there:

1) You will not express disrespect of the King of Thailand or any one member of the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution.

By law, the Thai Royal Family are above politics. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family.

Discussion of the Lese Majeste law or Lese Majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family.

To breach these rules may result in immediate ban.

Linking to external sites which break these rules will be treated as if you yourself posted them.

To breach these rules may result in immediate ban.

Or far worse, as criticism of the Thai Royal Family can lead to deportation or a lengthy spell in a Thai jail. As I understand the law, you can be guilty of defamation even if what you wrote never appeared on the Forum.

This is because any defamatory statement can be adjudged to have been "published" if it has been seen by a third party - in this instance, this would be the Forum editor or moderator who read the posting and decided to hold it out.

Hiding behind an anonymous avatar offers no defence against prosecution, as ThaiVisa would be obliged to reveal the offending poster's personal details - or face prosecution for contempt of court.

So it really is a good idea to think before you post.

[rreddin]

Well stick that where it best fits Attorney General.

I take it that the term "impeach" is being used as in the American political/judicial meaning of the word. If so, the former Prime Minister cannot be impeached because she does not hold a public office. US President Richard Nixon could not be impeached because he left office (resigned) before proceedings started. The only time Ms Yingluck could have been impeached was when she was Prime Minister, but that term of office ended some time ago. So, if the NLA wants to persecute any former politician for alleged misconduct carried out while in office, they will have to find another route.

[clued]

The NACC is like a dog with a bone. They just won't let this go.

Thank goodness they don't.

Squandering hundreds of billions should be held accountable.

[Halion]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Who exactly suffered during Yinglucks time in power? You? Your wife? Your children? Your dog?

Yes it was an expensive experience, but nobody was suffering? Apart from the country as a whole.

As for the impeachment, a complete waste of time and money. Since it can only remove her from power or ban her from politics for 5 years.

Removed she has been already, and I honestly think, she would only welcome a 5 year ban.

So a lot of hot air for nothing!!

Do not disagree with the fact that this may well just be the usual Thai circus, however, many people did suffer directly from this egregious rice scam, with farmers committing suicide and the country as a whole has suffered from the loss in market share and revenue.

Impeachment,legal prosecution and so on are simply a way to ensure that those in government office who fail by recalcitrance or malfeasance are brought to understand that they have a responsibility and as such are accountable for their actions. A point much lost in this country.

[Sarathi]

YL PROPOSES that the senate be fully elected, and is accused of 'attempting to overthrow the democratic constitution with King as head of state'

Prayuth actually DOES overthrow the constitution.

And which one is getting impeached???

Only in Thailand.

[Baerboxer]

Isn't the impeachment request premature?

This is what I understand:

1) Yingluck has not been found quilty in a court of law for negligent dereliction of duty in the rice pledge program. To date the prosecutor has declined to charge Yingluck and bring her to trial. But it seems the NACC has independent prosecurial powers to the extent that it can hire its own prosecutor to take the case to trial. Regardless, she has not been tried and\ found guilty. So is the grounds for impeachment is based on NACC allegations that she should be impeached?

2) With regards to the failed Pheu Thai Party MP's legislation to alter the way some senators are selected (proposed 100% elected vs. 50% appointed), the Supreme Court ruled that it was the PROCESS used to pass the legislation that was unconstitutional. The SC did not rule that it was the PROPOSAL itself that was unconstitutional as the 2007 Constitution provided for changes to the Constitution. Again, where is the criminality and conviction?

3) Finally, it is odd that NACC is asking that Yingluck to be impeached for attempting a change in the constitution that no longer exists. To those new TV readers, the 2007 Constitution doesn't exist because the military coup aborgated (threw out) the constitution in May 2014 and by its own perrogative created an Interim Constitution and a National Legislative Assembly in which the Senate no longer exists.

So what is the grounds for impeachment other than a political vendetta against the PTP and Yingluck?

Oh stop it now.

As loads of people have said on here, "we all know the Shinawatras are evil, thieving people, and we all know that they must be guilty of something, so we all know that they must be found guilty, because we all know that they are the baddies and the other guys are the goodies, because we all know this, and this is the truth, because the Nation said so".

Ah, the Shin fans out in force again.

The Shin's must be the true champions of the people, democracy and free speech - they told us so and they wouldn't lie would they.

All the lying, cheating in parliament, inability to stop attackers or and murderers of those who opposed them, failure to produce meaningful public accounts or be held accountable, calls for a separate Shin republic, threats of civil war, massing their red guards. All just part of the game eh?

Those who follow the words of the Big T would love to have this all just swept under the carpet, along with Thaksin's conviction and 15 serious outstanding criminal charges. The a new party can be created and try again for the whitewash, all funded by the taxpayer.

And why do they think like this one wonders? Thaksin - very clever the way he has created a PR machine, team of lobbyists, private militia, and gang of minions who do his wishes.

Mugabe takes 76% of the Zimbabwean revenues to pay his "civil service" i.e. his gang in their created, well paid meaningless jobs. How much would the Shins have pocketed with their "jobs for family and friends" creation?

[Baerboxer]

YL PROPOSES that the senate be fully elected, and is accused of 'attempting to overthrow the democratic constitution with King as head of state'

Prayuth actually DOES overthrow the constitution.

And which one is getting impeached???

Only in Thailand.

I don't think she proposed that. Her brother instructed PTP to pursue that.

PTP also suggested some other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members etc.

A lower and upper house packed with Shin family, extended family and assorted toadies. How very former Eastern bloc. Then we'd have seen a succession of laws rubber stamped to put Thaksin, a recently pardoned Thaksin, in a supreme role, from which it would be almost impossible to remove him. Democracy Shin style - we make the laws, you abide by them.

[Thanet]

As for the rice pledging case, Mr Sansern said that former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra would face the impeachment hangman

one may wonder if Ms. Yingluck would prefer to face her older brother again who might be somewhat disappointed and really saddened by the ineffectiveness of his clone.

That sounds rather one sided. Prayuth has a clone too. Check out the membership of the NLA and get back to me when you find another "Chan-oocha" (his little bro), or one or another military classmate.

Family members in prominent places happens everywhere. Look at Hilary and Bill, the Bushes, etc, etc.

Get over it.

[Baerboxer]

The NACC is like a dog with a bone. They just won't let this go.

Keep the hate coming guys...this is just exactly what they country does not need.

Bit like Thaksin with his quest for a amnesty for his conviction and 15 outstanding serious charges - at any cost or consequence.

The Shins are relying on playing the reconciliation card - if that ever happens, watch them turn and exact their revenge.

Some animals never change their spots. The West tried to appease Hitler, Stalin broke promise after promise and lied through his teeth, - it's a trait of dictators and wannabee dictators.

[Xonax]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Who exactly suffered during Yinglucks time in power? You? Your wife? Your children? Your dog?

Yes it was an expensive experience, but nobody was suffering? Apart from the country as a whole.

As for the impeachment, a complete waste of time and money. Since it can only remove her from power or ban her from politics for 5 years.

Removed she has been already, and I honestly think, she would only welcome a 5 year ban.

So a lot of hot air for nothing!!

You are talking in riddles you say the country suffered but not the people , how can you say people never suffered ?

m

The people will start to pay the price now and the next many years through increased taxation. Or do you really believe that yingluck or taksin are going to cover the losses???

[Sarathi]

YL PROPOSES that the senate be fully elected, and is accused of 'attempting to overthrow the democratic constitution with King as head of state'

Prayuth actually DOES overthrow the constitution.

And which one is getting impeached???

Only in Thailand.

I don't think she proposed that. Her brother instructed PTP to pursue that.

PTP also suggested some other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members etc.

A lower and upper house packed with Shin family, extended family and assorted toadies. How very former Eastern bloc. Then we'd have seen a succession of laws rubber stamped to put Thaksin, a recently pardoned Thaksin, in a supreme role, from which it would be almost impossible to remove him. Democracy Shin style - we make the laws, you abide by them.

interesting - you have a link on "other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members"

as memory serves (stuggling to find a link though) the main impeachment accusation was trying to undermine the constitutional democracy with ... you know the rest.

Fully agreed that the Guy In Dubai wants to stack every department with cronies. But I don't see the new powerbrokers as doing any different. YL was prosecuted for 'Abuse of Power' for installing her own relative as national security chief. She was replacing the previous coups own crony Thawil. But the new guys have done exactly the same.

I don't see this as good guys taking over from bad. Just more of the same power grabbing by different factions. The difference is that PT party always relied on the vote - who the people vote in, they can vote out. But by diverging power to bureaucrats, courts, councils, and undoubtedly a strong Military veto/appointed ministers the people don't have the ability to vote them out of power.

With Taksin's party out of the picture, and power resting in various offices there will be the usual power grabbing in-fighting and corruption as in the past.

I don't buy into the piture that with Thaksin gone, there will only be 'good people' left and everything will be nice, democratic and clean.

[Poppy Dave]

I just cannot believe you Shin apologists.

Have you been in a time warp or black hole for the past several years? It is people like you that enables people like them to exist.

If they had their way ( it appears that Thailand is half way there anyway, the way the HiSo's appear to be exempt from normal laws ), Thailand would be the same as medieval Europe. The 'blue-bloods' would ride roughshod over the poor peasants, doing and taking whatever they wanted with no consequence.

Wake-up......... You're in the 21st century, we ALL have just as much right to be here, live and breath as anyone else.

NO family has the right to treat other families as though they are some type of sub-species to themselves and are there for their benifit.

As my late father used to say; "If you think you're man enough to do something, be man enough to face up to the consequences if it." That is a saying that quite a few people and families need to adhere too.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Poppy Dave

[billd766]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Who exactly suffered during Yinglucks time in power? You? Your wife? Your children? Your dog?

Yes it was an expensive experience, but nobody was suffering? Apart from the country as a whole.

As for the impeachment, a complete waste of time and money. Since it can only remove her from power or ban her from politics for 5 years.

Removed she has been already, and I honestly think, she would only welcome a 5 year ban.

So a lot of hot air for nothing!!

Tell that to the families of the farmers who comitted suicide because they had no money to support their families and could not face the shame of it.

Tell that to the farmers and their families who went deep into debt with the bank, legal and illegal money lenders and have lost their land and their livlihoods and possibly their families.

And yet you sit there as a keyboard warrior pontificating about things you have no knowledge of and say nobody suffered.

You make me want to puke.

Yingluck needs to be severely punished as an object lesson to ALL the greedy MPs of ANY party never to do it again.

Of course you could always ask her brother to return and take the punishment in her place.

I personally think he is too much of a coward to do that though. He would rather run and hide.

[tbthailand]

never saw that one coming.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/763638-nla-grants-itself-open-ended-impeachment-power/#entry8441760

I can only hope that Ms. Yingluck and other Pheu Thai MPs are less naive than you seem to be.

They got at least four months by now to better prepare themselves, have their legal representatives prepared, etc., etc.

either you don't read posts entirely or you don't understand irony and mild sarcasm.

By now I think I've got you figured out, my dear chap.

I think it's neither irony nor sarcasm, more like obfuscated accusation. IMHO

'Heer' Rubl... maybe you would like to point out the (1) accusation above, and then (2) point out the obfuscation

you see the posts are just a dead simple prediction which came true within hours. no accusation, no obfuscation

[rubl]

Great news about time many people suffered under Yingluck's Government time to face reality , this is what they get for being puppets .

thank you General Prayuth.

Not enough evidence and Yingluck is out of politics for sure.

To be fair, if the NLA impeaches Yingluck they surely have to go after Suthep as he destroyed the tourism industry for at least in Bangkok.

Corrupt government officials have always been send to an inactive post. Thaksin got screwed because after the coup he continued from overseas.

Why the NLA doesn't bring Thaksin back? Simple, they don't want him back.

May I remind you that Suthep wasn't either MP or Democrat party member anymore since late October / begin November 2013. That would mean you want the NLA to go after a private citizen ? That's more for the police I'd think, apart from the fact that Bangkok tourism wasn't really destroyed, nor was it Suthep's doing. Unless you want to accuse him of the nightly, cowardly gunfire and grenade attacks that is ?

As for NLA bringing Thaksin back, I guess that indeed they'd rather he'd stay abroad apart from the fact that 'to bring back' isn't just a 'send someone to take him back'.

Anyway the NLA as parliament/Senate may ask the NACC to (continue to) investigate Ms. Yingluck and a few of hers.

[rubl]

As for the rice pledging case, Mr Sansern said that former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra would face the impeachment hangman

one may wonder if Ms. Yingluck would prefer to face her older brother again who might be somewhat disappointed and really saddened by the ineffectiveness of his clone.

That sounds rather one sided. Prayuth has a clone too. Check out the membership of the NLA and get back to me when you find another "Chan-oocha" (his little bro), or one or another military classmate.

Family members in prominent places happens everywhere. Look at Hilary and Bill, the Bushes, etc, etc.

Get over it.

Indeed, get over it. Ms. Yingluck may face impeachment.

[Basil B]

@2befrank.

Good post. But why not take her (them) straight to the criminal court?

There is a process, and the NACC probably knows that all political cases must go via an impeachment hearing first. The criminal case will probably take years anyway, but with an impeachment verdict of 'guilty' already in place, then it will be a pretty much open and shut case.

The NACC want convictions here, and impeachment will deffo strengthen their case and probably speed it up.

I beg to differ. A criminal case will offer the defendants the possibility to call almost all and any witnesses they think may help their cause. The NACC doesn't have to accept all witnesses, is the difference.

Of course, a criminal case may offer the defendants to clear their good name. Just dropping the matter because it's inconvenient leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many. IMHO

And give those who accuse her of wrongdoing the opportunity to prove their case beyond doubt, hopefully proving to those who worship her and the Shinawatra clan that they were no gooders and thereby helping mend the rift that divides the nation.

[rubl]

I can only hope that Ms. Yingluck and other Pheu Thai MPs are less naive than you seem to be.

They got at least four months by now to better prepare themselves, have their legal representatives prepared, etc., etc.

either you don't read posts entirely or you don't understand irony and mild sarcasm.

By now I think I've got you figured out, my dear chap.

I think it's neither irony nor sarcasm, more like obfuscated accusation. IMHO

'Heer' Rubl... maybe you would like to point out the (1) accusation above, and then (2) point out the obfuscation

you see the posts are just a dead simple prediction which came true within hours. no accusation, no obfuscation

Well, you just gave me the example I needed. Neither irony nor sarcasm, but all of a sudden just 'simple prediction'. Even coming true BEFORE the prediction was made as you wrote "never saw that coming"

BTW the correct addressing form (in Dutch) would be 'mijnheer' or 'meneer'. 'Heer' has some leftover association with 'higher ranking, nobility' and is hardly ever used anymore. Mind you, as we are amongst friends here, you may just call me 'uncle'

[rubl]

interesting - you have a link on "other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members"

as memory serves (stuggling to find a link though) the main impeachment accusation was trying to undermine the constitutional democracy with ... you know the rest.

Fully agreed that the Guy In Dubai wants to stack every department with cronies. But I don't see the new powerbrokers as doing any different. YL was prosecuted for 'Abuse of Power' for installing her own relative as national security chief. She was replacing the previous coups own crony Thawil. But the new guys have done exactly the same.

I don't see this as good guys taking over from bad. Just more of the same power grabbing by different factions. The difference is that PT party always relied on the vote - who the people vote in, they can vote out. But by diverging power to bureaucrats, courts, councils, and undoubtedly a strong Military veto/appointed ministers the people don't have the ability to vote them out of power.

With Taksin's party out of the picture, and power resting in various offices there will be the usual power grabbing in-fighting and corruption as in the past.

I don't buy into the piture that with Thaksin gone, there will only be 'good people' left and everything will be nice, democratic and clean.

Check the part on article 115.5 a.o.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/118006/thailands-nacc-ruling-why-it-happened-and-what-it-means/

[Robby nz]

YL PROPOSES that the senate be fully elected, and is accused of 'attempting to overthrow the democratic constitution with King as head of state'

Prayuth actually DOES overthrow the constitution.

And which one is getting impeached???

Only in Thailand.

I don't think she proposed that. Her brother instructed PTP to pursue that.

PTP also suggested some other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members etc.

A lower and upper house packed with Shin family, extended family and assorted toadies. How very former Eastern bloc. Then we'd have seen a succession of laws rubber stamped to put Thaksin, a recently pardoned Thaksin, in a supreme role, from which it would be almost impossible to remove him. Democracy Shin style - we make the laws, you abide by them.

interesting - you have a link on "other changes to go along with that, removing restrictions on family members"

as memory serves (stuggling to find a link though) the main impeachment accusation was trying to undermine the constitutional democracy with ... you know the rest.

Fully agreed that the Guy In Dubai wants to stack every department with cronies. But I don't see the new powerbrokers as doing any different. YL was prosecuted for 'Abuse of Power' for installing her own relative as national security chief. She was replacing the previous coups own crony Thawil. But the new guys have done exactly the same.

I don't see this as good guys taking over from bad. Just more of the same power grabbing by different factions. The difference is that PT party always relied on the vote - who the people vote in, they can vote out. But by diverging power to bureaucrats, courts, councils, and undoubtedly a strong Military veto/appointed ministers the people don't have the ability to vote them out of power.

With Taksin's party out of the picture, and power resting in various offices there will be the usual power grabbing in-fighting and corruption as in the past.

I don't buy into the piture that with Thaksin gone, there will only be 'good people' left and everything will be nice, democratic and clean.

Apparently you are new to all of this or you would know just what did happen.

When it was first proposed that the senate be fully elected the opposition agreed and the bill to that effect passed the first reading in the house.

It then went for scrutiny and extra clauses were added making it possible for family and friends of sitting MP's and senators to become senators and removing the 6 year term.

That was when the objections started with the opposition being dead against the added clauses and was one of the reasons the protests started.

See that sign, it is one that the protesters used to show their opposition to PTP's tricks.

Clause 190 of the constitution is the one that PT attempted to change. I make no apology for it being in Thai as it was the Thai people who were protesting and them who wrote the sign.

Regardless of all the opposition they went ahead anyway and passed the bill, they had the numbers and thought they could do what they liked

But it had to be sent it to the senate for approval, that was not forthcoming so there it stopped and has not been written into law.

Look it up yourself if you really want to know.