Alan Henning 'killed by Islamic State'

[Thai at Heart]

They are still not condemning the koran and the life of the prophet though are they and this is what is motivating the jihadists who are causing such terror in the world. No matter how many meaningless fatwas and people claiming it's not in their name your can post that does not alter the koran or life of the prophet which inspires those beheading people

Typical response from the hate mates.

You demand that ordinary Muslims protest against extremism, and when shown that they do, and have been doing so for many years, dismiss their protests!

Because, of course, it disproves your prejudices.

There are many things which motivate terrorists.

There are Christian terrorists operating in the Congo.

There are radical Christians in America firebombing family planning clinics and killing doctors, for example the murder of Dr. George Tiller by a member of the radical Christian Montana Freemen.

Should we therefore condemn what motivates them; the bible and the life of Jesus?

People who use their religion to justify their violence have perverted that religion; whatever that religion happens to be.

And where do the wrongdoers sit? Life imprison, or death row, or in a box.

Their motivation is not necessarily love of Christianity, but protecting the sanctity of human life. Many religions could bring themselves to be anti abortion, not just Christians.

[Johpa]

That is unrealistic. You can't kill all the Muslims or expect Muslims to stop be Muslims and to stop worshiping their holy book, prophet, or whatever. The ONLY hope for the long term is a growth of a more MODERATE Islam, but that's not easy when you've got the thug element willing to kill such people in many countries. Not to mention the disturbing percentage of Muslims globally who think the death penalty is justified for a person LEAVING Islam.

On the contrary, there is no chance that the more moderate form of Islam will become a more powerful influence then the orthodox form of Islam. It is the orthodox form of Islam, Salafism, the orthodox form being propagated by Saudi and other Gulf State oil money, that is in ascendance globally. Those of us who have been around Southeast Asia for decades have seen the move towards the more orthodox interpretation of Islam in both Malaysia, Indonesia, and to a lesser extent in Thailand. The "thug" layer is no more an outlier than is the western educated "moderate" who tend to pick and choose which orthodox interpretations they themselves wish to adhere to. Thus you hear some moderates attempting to rationalize stoning adulteresses or killing apostates. And even the most enlightened "moderates" are quite content with the concept of a theocratic form of government. I for one would abhor even the most moderate form of Islam becoming integrated into any government under which I was living my life. So in the end the only hope for the long term is convincing Muslims that the problem is with the ideas of Islam itself. And the first step towards a rational denouncing of Islam is to take the difficult step of denouncing the existence of all forms of a monotheistic god.

[Johpa]

Bill Mayer makes sense when it comes to Islam. Affleck is living in a dream world.

Affleck came across as an intolerant pseudo-liberal of the type highlighted by Chris Hedges in his essays. He also came across as one of the "shallow generation" as described by Nicholas Carr in his book "The Shallows". It is one thing to attack the acerbic entertainer Bill Maher, a man known to put his foot in his mouth. But Affleck was unwilling to allow Sam Harris to make his points and erroneously described Harris as a racist when Harris is attacking the ideas, the memes if you will, of Islam and not the individual adherents of Islam. Affleck's reasoning is basically as such: I know some nice Muslims and thus any attack on Islam is a personal attack on my friends and thus equates with racism. Affleck's limited mental reasoning capabilities were on full display. From here on out I shall refer to him as Ben Aflac.

[simple1]

Maybe you should read and listen to what the people in all the links provided are saying rather than posting your usual ignorant, knee jerk "they are lying" reaction.

Have a listen to the Imam in the BBC link; he quotes Mohammed directly when condemning IS (from 1:50)

No he does not quote Mohammed at all, there is not one scriptural reference, just a vague the Prophet warned us against people like this, I think the prophet was warning against people like this Imam. Before this he lies when he says Islam is a religion of compassion and forgiveness, does this comedian think people are still stupid enough to fall for these kind of lies?

People will interpret or emphasis passages in the Koran for their own individual moral and ethical beliefs. Those that choose to concentrate of the positive, rather than the negative are not 'wrong' and deserve support, not perpetual accusations of lying that only leads to more conflict within society.

Those of the Muslim community speaking out against the cruel and vicious murder of Alan Henning, as against the teachings of Islam would, I suggest, have in mind the 100 plus instructions in the Koran to be kind, compassionate and merciful. e.g.

The reward of goodness is nothing but goodness. (Al Quran 55:61)

Actually, islamic exegesis does not work this way- chosing to intrepret good or bad. The mandate is to follow the words and life of their prophet in order to best emulate what their god desire's of them. There are nearly 80 or so suras that represent the difficult times Islam had in Medina in the early days. After approx this point the suras become profoundly horrible, and warlike- reflecting their final rise to power and assualt and slaughter of Mecca. Thus when weak the suras demand tolerance and getting a long, and when strong the mandate is to kill and jihad against infidels and children of the book.

The reason this context is important is because the notion that extremists choose to "intrepret" wrong is fallacious; they do not. The Koran is understood by abrogation, even their prophet told them this. Therefore, later commands that are contrary to earlier commands take priority. Mohhamed said god has the right to revise his mandates and so the later, Mecca, Suras have priority. These are the Sword sura, etc., commanding a house of war Dar al harb until their is global islam, dar al salam.

I understand poster's suspicion that parts of the koran are intrepreted wrong, but they rarely are. To this point the koran is not the only book, for example the Hadith is in many ways just as important- the life of the prophet. Here too it is his later days, slaughtering just about everyone, that defines his age. Minor points regarding my post could be argued, but I am correct about the nature of withdrawing information from Islamic texts.

Sure the likes of Islamic State utilise the "Sword Verses' as one of their justifications, but their leaders decisions and individual actions based upon their interpretations and are in contradiction to some of the basic tenants of the Koran e.g. do not kill or mistreat fellow Muslims yet 'they' have decided many Muslims are not 'true beleivers' and deserving of death, torture, sexual enslavement etc.

As many Western & Islamic leaders have indicated, Islamic State, in essence, is nothing more than a fanatical cult that will eventually lead to its own destruction. Unfortunately its form will likely pop up somewhere else, but various other manifestations will also be eliminated

Aborgation itself is disputed amongst Islamic schools of thought / sects. It is not universally accepted by the Muslim community.

http://iiit.org/Research/ScholarsSummerInstitute/TableofContents/ArgumentsforAbrogationintheQuranACritique/tabid/241/Default.aspx

Or another example...

http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/2010/11/06/jihad-abrogation-in-the-quran-the-verse-of-the-sword/

[JockPieandBeans]

If you want to learn about Homophobes. Try watching the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eLaPaKU2HU

Check out his big fat head, that is close to exploding.

What is he ? Thats right, a Muslim

[7by7]

They are still not condemning the koran and the life of the prophet though are they and this is what is motivating the jihadists who are causing such terror in the world. No matter how many meaningless fatwas and people claiming it's not in their name your can post that does not alter the koran or life of the prophet which inspires those beheading people

Typical response from the hate mates.

You demand that ordinary Muslims protest against extremism, and when shown that they do, and have been doing so for many years, dismiss their protests!

Because, of course, it disproves your prejudices.

There are many things which motivate terrorists.

There are Christian terrorists operating in the Congo.

There are radical Christians in America firebombing family planning clinics and killing doctors, for example the murder of Dr. George Tiller by a member of the radical Christian Montana Freemen.

Should we therefore condemn what motivates them; the bible and the life of Jesus?

People who use their religion to justify their violence have perverted that religion; whatever that religion happens to be.

You are off on your favourite lie again calling posters here haters when they are not, and secondly we have the worn out what about the Christians who have bombed a very few abortion clinics in the past, not exactly convincing anyone, except to reinforce you blind faith in the worth of Islam. Despite the overwhelming evidence from history and today that Islam has little to offer as a civilising force, and much to offer as a backward, divisive and violent creed. We are lucky I suppose that relatively few actually join Allahs army of death.

Christian terrorists worldwide have done a lot more than bomb a few abortion clinics in the US; killed more than a few doctors in the US. I see you have ignored their atrocities in the other example I gave; the DRC!

Typical response from the hate mates; as are the subsequent posts peddling the same nonsense.

That is; "Muslim murderers and terrorists use the Koran to justify their crimes; therefore all Muslims must secretly support them. But that Christian murderers and terrorists use the Bible to justify their crimes is irrelevant."

As I said before; that some groups pervert their religion to justify their crimes does not mean that all followers of that religion agree with them.

The hate mates accept this when it comes to Christian murderers and terrorists, but wont do so when it comes to Muslims.

There can only be one reason for this; their hatred of and prejudice toward Islam and Muslims.

A hatred and prejudice which leads to ignorant statements like "Despite the overwhelming evidence from history and today that Islam has little to offer as a civilising force...." A statement which shows a complete ignorance of the history of, amongst many other subjects, maths and astronomy!

Direct your ire where it is deserved; IS and similar extremists and terrorists, and I will be happy to agree with you.

But while you and your hate mates continue to use the extremists and terrorists to justify your hate and ignorant prejudice against all Muslims then you are no better than those Islamist extremists who hate the west.

No doubt you will say that you are not beheading anyone; but we have already had cases in the UK, and elsewhere, of mosques being vandalised and people being abused, attacked and even murdered purely because the victim is a Muslim.

I abhor that as much as I abhor the murder of Alan Henning and all other atrocities committed by IS and similar extremists.

How about you?

[samran]

If you want to learn about Homophobes. Try watching the video.

Check out his big fat head, that is close to exploding.

What is he ? Thats right, a Muslim

.

Oh the irony. The homophobe sticking up for gay rights.

A bit like men whoring about in Pattaya taking a stand for women's rights.

You can't make this sh!t up.

Edited October 7, 2014 by samran

[Chicog]

If you want to learn about Homophobes. Try watching the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eLaPaKU2HU

Check out his big fat head, that is close to exploding.

What is he ? Thats right, a Muslim

But they can be so tolerant....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmaiIGr56w

[samran]

Is your name Pike.....?..........Stupid boy............

Yet again; present the hate mates with arguments and all they can come back with is a childish insult.

Edited to include quote.

Muslims from all over the world are joining ISIS to be issued an AK47 to kill folk for nothing.

BUT, Now Islamic countries, YES MUSLIMS are bombing the shit out of these nutters.

Are these countries anti Muslim ...?.....NO..........

How you haven't been shut down for calling posters racist is beyond me, your nuts.

So are these real Muslims who are fighting against Isis? Or just moderate ones, who I didn't think could exist according to everything I've read here. Or are they non practicing ones.

[Ulysses G.]

Moderate has nothing to do with it. They are just Muslims with a different agenda. Muslims have been fighting Muslims forever.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[halloween]

Muslims from all over the world are joining ISIS to be issued an AK47 to kill folk for nothing.

BUT, Now Islamic countries, YES MUSLIMS are bombing the shit out of these nutters.

Are these countries anti Muslim ...?.....NO..........

How you haven't been shut down for calling posters racist is beyond me, your nuts.

So are these real Muslims who are fighting against Isis? Or just moderate ones, who I didn't think could exist according to everything I've read here. Or are they non practicing ones.

Come on Sam. You know there are 2 branches of Islam and they rarely miss an opportunity to kill each other.

[samran]

Muslims from all over the world are joining ISIS to be issued an AK47 to kill folk for nothing.

BUT, Now Islamic countries, YES MUSLIMS are bombing the shit out of these nutters.

Are these countries anti Muslim ...?.....NO..........

How you haven't been shut down for calling posters racist is beyond me, your nuts.

So are these real Muslims who are fighting against Isis? Or just moderate ones, who I didn't think could exist according to everything I've read here. Or are they non practicing ones.

Come on Sam. You know there are 2 branches of Islam and they rarely miss an opportunity to kill each other.

Indeed, sectarianism gone mad.

But somehow my observations of the broader debate make me an apologist.

[Ulysses G.]

But somehow my observations of the broader debate make me an apologist.

More like a naive liberal than an apologist, IMO. Apologists are purposely lying and distorting the truth.

[ravip]

stop sending money or goods to these countries ,

block all news coming from there ,block there video's,

stop the internet in those countries ,

seal those countries off .

Let the locals take care of ,it is not our problem.

Let the muslims solve their own problems .

kick all non working ,taxpaying muslims out of europe .....

Dont listen to non -muslim idiots ,who like to defend islam.

Dont even speak about muslims .

Wow!!!

That's quite an outburst!

But things will not happen that way - that is why all these 'extremists' are getting tougher by the day.

In the end, it is the innocent who will pay the price.

[samran]

But somehow my observations of the broader debate make me an apologist.

More like a naive liberal than an apologist, IMO. Apologists are purposely lying and distorting the truth.

Hardly, I support military action and increased national security oversight.

The only thing I'm not doing (not saying you are either) is vilifying all and sundry and acting as Isis PR head by spreading the hysteria about them which they want disseminated. A hateful and divided west is exactly what they want.

[transam]

@ Nooooo samran,

You and another are there for killers, if it were Christian or any other religion killing the unarmed innocent for fun I would be here voicing my opinion. The difference between you and I....

[jacky54]

Alan was killed by Islam, or does somebody want to claim it was Christianity?

[samran]

@ Nooooo samran,

You and another are there for killers, if it were Christian or any other religion killing the unarmed innocent for fun I would be here voicing my opinion. The difference between you and I....

Well mate, why would I want to be like you?

Again, you are being offensive saying I support murder. But that is no more than to be expected from you.

I had some respect for you though I rarely agreed with you. That last morsel of respect just vanished. Call me anything you want, but never call me being a cheerleader for murder.

[transam]

@ Nooooo samran,

You and another are there for killers, if it were Christian or any other religion killing the unarmed innocent for fun I would be here voicing my opinion. The difference between you and I....

Well mate, why would I want to be like you?

Again, you are being offensive saying I support murder. But that is no more than to be expected from you.

I had some respect for you though I rarely agreed with you. That last morsel of respect just vanished. Call me anything you want, but never call me being a cheerleader for murder.

Then you should re-think your input words and how ordinary folk like me read them....

As you said before, I am not the sharpest tool in the box/shed, so l feel l am an "average" guy, in your opinion, soooooooo, your posts regarding this stuff to me are one way. You have not made a single post to alter my opinion....Sadly.

[BATHIK]

Meanwhile there could be hundreds of western WOMEN who went to join jihad with IS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29507410

They make a conscious, well informed choice. Who should be held responsible for that?

These people, men and women alike, simply slip through the fingers of anti-Islam demagoguery which fails to convince anyone but the demagogues themselves.

[jacky54]

Meanwhile there could be hundreds of western WOMEN who went to join jihad with IS.

They make a conscious, well informed choice. Who should be held responsible for that?

Islam is responsible, but their choice is not well informed, they are brainwashed by the cult of the Prophet, a cult of violence, hatred, oppression of women, gays and other faiths, and death.

[BATHIK]

.. they are brainwashed by the cult of the Prophet, a cult of violence, hatred, oppression of women, gays and other faiths, and death.

They grew up in the West where none of these things are ever taught to people. Not in schools, not in mass media. They know democracy and its liberties through first hand experience and I don't think they are not lost to "cults", as you would make us believe.

[samran]

@ Nooooo samran,

You and another are there for killers, if it were Christian or any other religion killing the unarmed innocent for fun I would be here voicing my opinion. The difference between you and I....

Well mate, why would I want to be like you?

Again, you are being offensive saying I support murder. But that is no more than to be expected from you.

I had some respect for you though I rarely agreed with you. That last morsel of respect just vanished. Call me anything you want, but never call me being a cheerleader for murder.

Then you should re-think your input words and how ordinary folk like me read them....

As you said before, I am not the sharpest tool in the box/shed, so l feel l am an "average" guy, in your opinion, soooooooo, your posts regarding this stuff to me are one way. You have not made a single post to alter my opinion....Sadly.

You have my apologies transam. I'll withdraw.

[jacky54]

.. they are brainwashed by the cult of the Prophet, a cult of violence, hatred, oppression of women, gays and other faiths, and death.

They grew up in the West where none of these things are ever taught to people. Not in schools, not in mass media. They know democracy and its liberties through first hand experience and I don't think they are not lost to "cults", as you would make us believe.

You obviously do not live in the UK, they ARE Islamised in Moques by hate preachers and brainwashed in Schools with Saudi text books. They are not interested in democracy or human rights, their only concern is the supremacy of Islam

[JockPieandBeans]

.. they are brainwashed by the cult of the Prophet, a cult of violence, hatred, oppression of women, gays and other faiths, and death.

They grew up in the West where none of these things are ever taught to people. Not in schools, not in mass media. They know democracy and its liberties through first hand experience and I don't think they are not lost to "cults", as you would make us believe.

Not sure if you actually believe that statement.

However, that is immaterial. For whatever misguided reason that they came to that decision, I do not know how anyone could call it a " Well informed choice "

They are responsible and will suffer the consequences.

[BATHIK]

If you guys are correct about some Brits having no idea what democracy and human rights are maybe you should call the UK a failed state and bomb the h*ll out of it for spreading dangerous Islamic propaganda.

Or maybe it's just you don't make any sense to your opponents. They see your democracy, listen to your speeches, and choose Islam and sharia instead.

But of course it's a lot easier to blame everything on the enemies rather than admit your own failures.

Or maybe it's the all pervading PC that allows Islamic extremists to preach freely while liberals divide themselves into two opposing camps - those who allow everything as a matter of ideology and those who want Muslim blood at all costs. None of these approaches seem to work.

Here's an observation - the louder you scream about evils of Islam the less they listen. I could offer you the example of red rhetoric here failing to convince anyone but themselves, but it's not the right forum to discuss Thai based case studies.

[JockPieandBeans]

If you guys are correct about some Brits having no idea what democracy and human rights are maybe you should call the UK a failed state and bomb the h*ll out of it for spreading dangerous Islamic propaganda.

I have no problem in calling it a failed state.

That's why I am here and not there.

Or maybe it's the all pervading PC that allows Islamic extremists to preach freely while liberals divide themselves into two opposing camps - those who allow everything as a matter of ideology and those who want Muslim blood at all costs. None of these approaches seem to work.

Wont disagree too much with that either.

Here's an observation - the louder you scream about evils of Islam the less they listen.

The less who listen ?

Muslims ? We already know that

Government ? Not quite, they are now changing their tune.

Edited October 7, 2014 by JockPieandBeans

[Chicog]

.. they are brainwashed by the cult of the Prophet, a cult of violence, hatred, oppression of women, gays and other faiths, and death.

They grew up in the West where none of these things are ever taught to people. Not in schools, not in mass media. They know democracy and its liberties through first hand experience and I don't think they are not lost to "cults", as you would make us believe.

Not in schools, not in mass media. But in Mosques. And in the family home.

[Chicog]

Moderate has nothing to do with it. They are just Muslims with a different agenda. Muslims have been fighting Muslims forever.

Well not quite forever. The major schism happened after chief prophet and paedophile Mohammed popped his clogs.

[BATHIK]

The less who listen ?

Muslims ? We already know that

I meant Muslims who are currently taking over Europe. We've got to make them listen of they'll start cutting people's heads off right in the center of London. They are just one step away already.

Not in schools, not in mass media. But in Mosques. And in the family home.

Agree, but why do "white" people are far less successful at protecting their kids from the influence of government education and mass media?

Maybe it's not the exposure but the message itself that is not as compelling as what they hear from imams. Lots of "white" people do not believe a word our governments say as a a matter of principle, too. But then sh*t happens and everybody unites around governments and "democracy" as if they learned nothing. Muslims in these cases, I suppose, seek shelter in their mosques, not in Obama leadership speeches.

I guess what I want to say is that success of Islam feeds on failures of western democracy and Islamic extremism is only a symptom of a far bigger, fundamental problem. We've got to deal with symptoms, too, but unless the root cause is addressed they would just keep popping up like late stage cancer.

Re. Schism in Islamic world - it's not very relevant to the rise of IS. Sure, Iraqi Sunnis felt they didn't get a fair deal from post-invasion governments but so far it's the other Sunnis that volunteered to fight them while Shia Iran is watching from the sidelines. That schism has been overshadowed by a thousand years of tribal and colonial history and is driven by today's global politics.