I'm going to ignore you after this, because you are incredibly condescending, especially on an issue that you obviously know nothing about.

That line just about sums up your reasoning, you blame me for being incredibaly condescending in the first part of the sentence and are incredibly condescending yourself in the second part of it. You don't see the hipocrasy in that?

First of all, I'm not shouting anyone down, I was trying to have a discussion unitl you started following me around to harrass and harangue the same meaningless and reactionary point.

I'm not following you around, again the paranoia. Obviously I am addressing my posts to you as for the majority of the time its been you I have been having a discussion with.

If you don't see it, or in your case, pretend not to see it, then there is much you don't understand about yourself or the world. I understand similarities and differences, because I must, as a minority in a plural society, as EVERY minority everywhere understands it.

I'm tired of you and am now putting you on ignore.

I imagine you spend a lot of time ignoring people who do not agree with you.

Edited August 10, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

I am curious as to why the women would put up with this. This is their country and they have rights that their husbands do not have.

Well there is the cultural aspect of mistress and such historically being more accepted in the East than in the Victorian culturally based West. So you might be assigning Western Victorian cultural standards on Eastern women.

But I think there is also a shifting tide at work with women as well. There is a thread here on TV that is focused on the Mia Noi's and the man having them followed to check into their activities. But I can say that I know a couple of Thai ladies (one married to a western man, and one married to a Thai) that have things on the side as well. Certainly more prevalent for men then women; at least for now - but times they are a changing.

Trying to get back on topic:

Actually, that thread also talked about the prevelance of giks replacing mia nois if I'm not mistaken, *or girlfriends and mistresses replacing mia nois, or simply adding on.

*edit: ".... Once, most of his clients were suspicious wives checking on their husbands whom they suspected of cheating.

But today, more and more men want to know what their wives or girlfriends are up to when they are not around.

Teenagers or students are often the "targets" of investigations - especially female students working part time at entertainment venues or the mistresses of rich men, he says.

"Before, it was the wives of rich men hiring us to spy on their husbands.

"But, lately, it's those rich men - politicians or businessmen - who are worried their mistresses have a younger man as a 'gik'.

"They hire us to spy on their girlfriends," he says."

Edited August 10, 200619 yr by kat

Boo (and mods), I'm going to respond to the thread title by picking up the discussion that was left behind about men and women in LOS and tie it into the subject, but i need to respond previous comments to go forward. i'm sorry if I seem to be disregarding your request; I'm not. Please give me a chance.

Ok, I've been mulling over some points discussed on this thread concerning the subject title (farang men and Thai marriages/relationships. As the history of the thread reveals, there were some comments made and responses to those comments. I want to further clarify what I was saying about those comments which are related to the subject title, as well as comment on some accusations towards me.

First of all, about the OFF TOPIC discussion and comments: We are talking about specific, generalized groups of people, and in the case of the subject title, self-selected groups of people. It is perfectly understandable to discuss self-selected groups of people, especially on a thread which names as its subject, specific groups of people.

Ethnicity is not self-selected, it is lived and experienced. To comment on one's experience is not playing a "race card" but merely explaining or defining that card. The two are very different. If a person cannot decipher the difference, then that is a telltale sign that they do not know how to discuss ethnicity and diversity, except according to their own dominant point of view. This is NOT condescension, but an observation based on actual dialogue and misconstrued representations of what I was saying.

Back to the discussion: The reason why I find the comment about sex with someone who is not your wife or girlfriend to be the same as a wank offensive, is because it is an acceptance of dehumanizing attitudes. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not men visit prostitutes, or Victorian attitudes against casual sex. I view it as an attitude from a continum that allows men and women to view female sexuality in the very limited dualities of paid sex/free sex, girlfriend/prostitute, etc.

I find it extremely offensive that any woman who decides to sleep with a man of her own accord outside of an established relationship, is viewed as a wank, and not a woman or even a person. You can find these views everywhere, however, my previous comment concerning my status as a woman here, is that I've never seen a greater or more accepted incidence of this attitude than here in LOS.

This is obviously not random, because we are talking generally about a specific group of self-selected people, as the subject title suggests. My comments were about my experience here in LOS, with these self-selected group of people. And as I said previously, I think it is easier for men to do that here because almost every definition of a woman is delineated along these limited categories. If you are not someone's girlfriend or wife, you are a wank; If you are not asking for money or to be compensated for your sex, you are free sex and not paid sex; if you are not a Thai girlfriend or wife (who most people will assume you are paying anyway; I'm not stating this as judgement, but for the sake of argument), then you are a desperate foreign woman.

My point here is that I find it difficult for ANY woman under the above limited definitions to be just a woman in an encounter or relationship, without any of the dehumanizing roles foisted on her that have become commonplace for all of us here in LOS. As I said earlier, I don't find the patronage of prostitutes or casual sex disgusting, but I find the attitudes which separate women consciously and unconsciously into these limited dualities as extremely repugnant. And since I refuse to categorize myself into roles of such limited scope, I steer clear of sexual relationships here with the majority of men who seem to have adopted this approach toward women. I do this not out of random and superficial arguments or name-calling, but from my experince here as a woman.

I've found a set of patterns that are common which I talked about earlier, and I forgot to mention that it is also very common for many men here to resort to degrading remarks and condescension whenever a female pov that they find uncomfortable is voiced here. I've tried to discuss this as honestly as i can. If you are not one to think of women in this limited scope and have no problem holding a discussion with a woman with her own female pov, then this isn't written about you.

Edited August 13, 200619 yr by kat

OK, here we go, the overgeneralized, generalizing statement

Just give it up while you're ahead please. That is like saying there are no cultural or political differences between people. I find this especially rich, since generalized, offensive comments about Americans are a regular on the BBC and by Brits.

And as a matter of fact, there are cultural similarities between Jenifer Lopez and me, because her parents are from Puerto-Rico and emigrated to the Bronx, same as my father.

So yes, we are different individuals, shaped by the same culture, and very similar demographics.

But, yes, different people; can you manage that

edit: It's like 3rd - 5th grade math: recognizing like elements in a set. Generalizations and hypothesis are also part of every scientific inquiry ever made.

You are now moaning about the BBC! A bastion of fairhanded reporting.

Would it make you happier if we all watched Fox instead.

Ho hum.... me thinks that's a chip on your shoulder Miss Kat.

Don't think we're going to agree on this one. Oh well.

Fair enough somchai, think what you will but I am with Kat on this one and feel the topic needs to get off of what the guys think of Kat, farang women,race issues in the UK and US etc etc etc

The reason why I find the comment about sex with someone who is not your wife or girlfriend to be the same as a wank offensive, is because it is an acceptance of dehumanizing attitudes. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not men visit prostitutes, or Victorian attitudes against casual sex. I view it as an attitude from a continum that allows men and women to view female sexuality in the very limited dualities of paid sex/free sex, girlfriend/prostitute, etc.

I find it extremely offensive that any woman who decides to sleep with a man of her own accord outside of an established relationship, is viewed as a wank, and not a woman or even a person.

This, I believe, is probably the real reason why SOME men find it perfectly acceptable to cheat on their partners. I guess if all you are having is the equivalent of a wank with someone who doesn't count as a human being then it isn't really cheating

is it considered abusive to be unfaithful? i think not.

having sex with women you are not in a relationship is just like having a w#nk

asian women understand this concept a lot more rather than western woman, who are taught to view the world through terms of absolute ownership

Amazing words from a person trying to be sarcastic.. with a god like complex...or just flat out a "mother-less child".

At the end of the day, being allowed into the men's private club to hear their conversations is a scary one.

If sex with a person was the same as a wank there would be no prostitutes or cheating ;-)

very good point

So the moderators think these posts are suitable?

and everyone knows that women are a sometimes thing!

Boo (and mods), I'm going to respond to the thread title by picking up the discussion that was left behind about men and women in LOS and tie it into the subject, but i need to respond previous comments to go forward. i'm sorry if I seem to be disregarding your request; I'm not. Please give me a chance.

Ok, I've been mulling over some points discussed on this thread concerning the subject title (farang men and Thai marriages/relationships. As the history of the thread reveals, there were some comments made and responses to those comments. I want to further clarify what I was saying about those comments which are related to the subject title, as well as comment on some accusations towards me.

First of all, about the OFF TOPIC discussion and comments: We are talking about specific, generalized groups of people, and in the case of the subject title, self-selected groups of people. It is perfectly understandable to discuss self-selected groups of people, especially on a thread which names as its subject, specific groups of people.

Ethnicity is not self-selected, it is lived and experienced. To comment on one's experience is not playing a "race card" but merely explaining or defining that card. The two are very different. If a person cannot decipher the difference, then that is a telltale sign that they do not know how to discuss ethnicity and diversity, except according to their own dominant point of view. This is NOT condescension, but an observation based on actual dialogue and misconstrued representations of what I was saying.

Back to the discussion: The reason why I find the comment about sex with someone who is not your wife or girlfriend to be the same as a wank offensive, is because it is an acceptance of dehumanizing attitudes. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not men visit prostitutes, or Victorian attitudes against casual sex. I view it as an attitude from a continum that allows men and women to view female sexuality in the very limited dualities of paid sex/free sex, girlfriend/prostitute, etc.

I find it extremely offensive that any woman who decides to sleep with a man of her own accord outside of an established relationship, is viewed as a wank, and not a woman or even a person. You can find these views everywhere, however, my previous comment concerning my status as a woman here, is that I've never seen a greater or more accepted incidence of this attitude than here in LOS.

This is obviously not random, because we are talking generally about a specific group of self-selected people, as the subject title suggests. My comments were about my experience here in LOS, with these self-selected group of people. And as I said previously, I think it is easier for men to do that here because almost every definition of a woman is delineated along these limited categories. If you are not someone's girlfriend or wife, you are a wank; If you are not asking for money or to be compensated for your sex, you are free sex and not paid sex; if you are not a Thai girlfriend or wife (who most people will assume you are paying anyway; I'm not stating this as judgement, but for the sake of argument), then you are a desperate foreign woman.

My point here is that I find it difficult for ANY woman under the above limited definitions to be just a woman in an encounter or relationship, without any of the dehumanizing roles foisted on her that have become commonplace for all of us here in LOS. As I said earlier, I don't find the patronage of prostitutes or casual sex disgusting, but I find the attitudes which separate women consciously and unconsciously into these limited dualities as extremely repugnant. And since I refuse to categorize myself into roles of such limited scope, I steer clear of sexual relationships here with the majority of men who seem to have adopted this approach toward women. I do this not out of random and superficial arguments or name-calling, but from my experince here as a woman.

I've found a set of patterns that are common which I talked about earlier, and I forgot to mention that it is also very common for many men here to resort to degrading remarks and condescension whenever a female pov that they find uncomfortable is voiced here. I've tried to discuss this as honestly as i can. If you are not one to think of women in this limited scope and have no problem holding a discussion with a woman with her own female pov, then this isn't written about you.

Kat is fighting the good fight always, gotta respect that. In this case I am supporting her and what sbk says.

I see more Thai men doing it and having secret wifes and girl friends and very few of my western friends.

I know this and that is if my wife has told me she would cut off the old twig and berries if I even thought about it

Haha, thats so funny...I bet she knows my wife

Kat is fighting the good fight always, gotta respect that. In this case I am supporting her and what sbk says.

totster

Kat is fighting the good fight always, gotta respect that. In this case I am supporting her and what sbk says.

totster

No no tots, its only MY ass he's kissing

Quick off topic note: cute smilie, you should send it to Huski or George or Dr PP and get it added to the smiley list.

"Thats no lady thats my wife"

This thread starts off about being Farangs being unfaithful to Thai Ladies and continues with gross language and the moderators ignore all that.

Does Thai Visa support Thai women being treated as second class citizens?

At least Farangs who do not marry their GF do not abuse any code.

Are double standards apply here?

Edited August 14, 200619 yr by Korat Correct

A few posts back I advised anyone with a post they didn't like or thought wasn't appropriate to use the "report this post" button at the top of every thread.

So Korat correct try using it instead of making up imaginary issues to complain about.

Does Thai Visa support Thai women being treated as second class citizens?

What are you talking about? Women of all nationality have been abused in this thread.

Fair enough somchai, think what you will but I am with Kat on this one and feel the topic needs to get off of what the guys think of Kat, farang women,race issues in the UK and US etc etc etc

How predictable.

Kat brought race into it, Kat got her just desert.

Kat can argue her own points.

This has now run it's course, I'm bored.

Chock Deee my friend.

Boo

Point taken but why should I play at being God?

C'mon somchai, kat admitted the error of her ways, why can't I continue to point it out? Its not taking sides its just trying to get things back on track.

Thanks for your support SBK, but I don't think I've admitted any error, apart from possibly pissing off the very patient mods in this case. Other than that, I'm fine.

You are now moaning about the BBC! A bastion of fairhanded reporting.

Would it make you happier if we all watched Fox instead.

Ho hum.... me thinks that's a chip on your shoulder Miss Kat.

Don't think we're going to agree on this one. Oh well.

I'm not moaning - yeesh - what a little sensationalist you are! I'm simply elaborating my point. If you think the BBC is so fair and balanced, then I can perfectly understand why you are unable to listen to and consider a point of view different from your own.

And by the way, I would only recommend Faux News to either my worst enemies or best friends; it is both a source of torture and entertainment.

Fair enough somchai, think what you will but I am with Kat on this one and feel the topic needs to get off of what the guys think of Kat, farang women,race issues in the UK and US etc etc etc

How predictable.

Kat brought race into it, Kat got her just desert.

Kat can argue her own points.

This has now run it's course, I'm bored.

Chock Deee my friend.

Have I brought race into it? What is the title of the thread? Surely, as a poster on the farang forum of Thai Visa, you have most certainly brought race and ethnicity into it as well, albeit a bit less consciously than I have.

Who has given me my just dessert? Certainly no one on this thread. You should first understand what the person is saying before you can actually wreak any kind of havoc on what they are actually saying, ho hum.

Edited August 14, 200619 yr by kat

Kat is fighting the good fight always, gotta respect that. In this case I am supporting her and what sbk says.

totster

Better theirs than your old man.

I can't say I know a slew of Farang men who are married to Thai women, but so far, all the Swiss, German and American men whom I have met all seem to have adopted a liberal lifestyle. They have their Thai wives and they have prostitutes that they frequent on the side. (at least they claim the women are prostitutes).

Now these are men who have been living in thailand for more than 5 yrs. The sad thing is their older wives turn a blind eye. They have kids, a family house in their home towns and give their husbands their space.

Now I am sure the same applies to farangs married to farangs.. but in those cases, you can say a certain amount of insecurity and dependance on the husband might keep these women quiet.

I am curious as to why the women would put up with this. This is their country and they have rights that their husbands do not have.

Back to the orginal post and you are correct in your observations ... I have observed this trend also and as a happily married and 100% faithful Englishman whos been living in Thailand for 7 years find it baffling .... I can also understand Kats disdain at some of the Englishmen shes met here as there is a certain element of men behaving badly and being given the green light to behave badly in Thailand (seems like Kats been unlucky meeting dodgy English geezers but you can include a host of other nationalties as major players as well).

It seems that some people adopt double standards when they are away from their homeland and behave in a way that they wouldn't even consider in their own country.

Unfortunately the good behaviour guys are quietly tucked away and won't make the headlines but I can assure you that there are a lot of good faithful foreign guys throughout the Kingdom.

Unfortunately the good behaviour guys are quietly tucked away and won't make the headlines but I can assure you that there are a lot of good faithful foreign guys throughout the Kingdom.

Very good point & welcome to the forum David

Maybe people think that everyone is in the same boat because of the many stories around about the bad things about thai people or having relationships with them or the men/women who date them but those of us in good relationships don't go posting about it as we are too busy living normal lives & being happy (most of the time_.

Back to the orginal post and you are correct in your observations ... I have observed this trend also and as a happily married and 100% faithful Englishman whos been living in Thailand for 7 years find it baffling .... I can also understand Kats disdain at some of the Englishmen shes met here as there is a certain element of men behaving badly and being given the green light to behave badly in Thailand (seems like Kats been unlucky meeting dodgy English geezers but you can include a host of other nationalties as major players as well).

It seems that some people adopt double standards when they are away from their homeland and behave in a way that they wouldn't even consider in their own country.

Unfortunately the good behaviour guys are quietly tucked away and won't make the headlines but I can assure you that there are a lot of good faithful foreign guys throughout the Kingdom.

Cheers to that David. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say.

I think your argument about sex being compared to having a wank is a bit one sided. I have very limited experience on this front in Thailand, but I know from my college days in the US that there were plenty of women having casual sex with men, and thinking of the whole deal as nothing more than a “wank”. This is not just guys thinking of women as a wank. I knew a few girls that would regularly have sex with guys that had met just that night, had no intention of ever talking to them again, and were basically using the guy for the sex only. I would agree however that there are FAR more guys doing this than there are women. But if both parties know going into things that it is just a wank kind of thing – then no harm no foul.

I think I can however understand your issues in regard to the difficulties of being a woman here in Thailand, and how women are generally categorized in LOS. And I can see how the wank issue only helps to perpetuate the categorizations.

I think from reading your posts one of the big issues for woman here in Thailand is weeding through all those guys looking for a wank, as opposed to a relationship. On the flip side of things I know a few guys here in Thailand that have a hard time with relationships in Thailand because they have a difficult time finding someone here in LOS that they feel they can have a lasting long term relationship (a big part of this problem is cultural and certainly not tied to the wank issue) – it can be hard for a man to wade thru all the cynicism out their about Thai women and what they are after in relationships as well.

I think we have done really well by mentioning the word "wank" about 100+ times without it being censored bythe boards software

Thanks for your support SBK, but I don't think I've admitted any error, apart from possibly pissing off the very patient mods in this case. Other than that, I'm fine.

You are now moaning about the BBC! A bastion of fairhanded reporting.

Would it make you happier if we all watched Fox instead.

Ho hum.... me thinks that's a chip on your shoulder Miss Kat.

Don't think we're going to agree on this one. Oh well.

I'm not moaning - yeesh - what a little sensationalist you are! I'm simply elaborating my point. If you think the BBC is so fair and balanced, then I can perfectly understand why you are unable to listen to and consider a point of view different from your own.

And by the way, I would only recommend Faux News to either my worst enemies or best friends; it is both a source of torture and entertainment.

Fair enough somchai, think what you will but I am with Kat on this one and feel the topic needs to get off of what the guys think of Kat, farang women,race issues in the UK and US etc etc etc

How predictable.

Kat brought race into it, Kat got her just desert.

Kat can argue her own points.

This has now run it's course, I'm bored.

Chock Deee my friend.

Have I brought race into it? What is the title of the thread? Surely, as a poster on the farang forum of Thai Visa, you have most certainly brought race and ethnicity into it as well, albeit a bit less consciously than I have.

Who has given me my just dessert? Certainly no one on this thread. You should first understand what the person is saying before you can actually wreak any kind of havoc on what they are actually saying, ho hum.

I really have touched a raw nerve haven't I?

My goodness, if you dislike the BBC this much, what would you think of my favourite UK news broadcaster, Channel 4?!

I'll continue to watch it though and read the Independent.

But wait.......how can that be? My cousin detests the Independent, loves Sky News and reads the Daily Mail. He thinks one immigrant in UK is too many whilst I think our economy would collapse without them......but we're both British men. We have completely different attitudes!!!

Your judgement that about us British may be a little flawed, no? Perhaps you should sleep on it.

Chock Dee my friend.

OFF TOPIC RESPONSE

Somchai:

I wasn't talking about the "British", I was talking about English men. And, with all the rating, weighing, and prodding of women on this site, don't I have a right to say with whom I think I am compatible or not and for whatever reasons? Do you think it's fair to judge me for my preferences, especially when they've been based on direct, negative comments that have been made about women in general, and women of my ethnic group that I have observed across a wide range of English media?

And, I already stated that this was a broad comment, because of course if I meet a great male who is also English, his nationality isn't going to stop me from getting to know him. It would probably be fun, because a little tension is always good in any physical attraction, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously, my thinking on the matter isn't as simple as judging all of them the same, because I've dated 5 of them already. Or, maybe I'm jaded BECAUSE among other things I've dated 5 of them already, and have been an active participant on this forum? I don't know; I'm just being completely honest.

And I don't have anything against the BBC, in fact the news programs are more in line with my leftist viewpoint. But I am under no illusion that they are unbiased, especially after watching some of their stories which cover the States. I've seen a few in which I actually knew more about the region or subject-at-hand than the reporter, and their blatant and irresponsible biases were glaring.

I've never seen Channel 4, so I don't know.

If you want to continue to talk to me on this topic, you should PM me, because I don't want to anger the gods - I mean mods

because I don't want to anger the gods - I mean mods

no, you were right first time

Aries

Whilst I don't agree with all your points Kat, I have been a bit obtuse, sorry.

Edited August 18, 200619 yr by somchai jones