BKKmadness - this is what I mean about your responses here, although I am in no way trying to imply that you are an idiot because I know you're not - where do I say: "Well, your a man in Thailand, of course you all think like that!"

I am talking about a pattern, and a significant number of men here in my and other women's experience here as a foreign woman. But, this is based on my personal experience and and shared experience with other foreign women, so please don't expect it to be in the form of published research

You're right - I don't know you or LCross. I only know what I've read here and responded. But I know and trust my experiences and observations here very well, and that is enough for me in my personal life and decisions.

casual sex in england was just like a wank too, if that helps matters

For you, I guess it does. But for me, it just confirms that I really would not be compatible with a large number of *English men.

*edit

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

BKKmadness - this is what I mean about your responses here, although I am in no way trying to imply that you are an idiot because I know you're not - where do I say: "Well, your a man in Thailand, of course you all think like that!"

Your explanation of mine and Lefties comments about sex/wanking:

The male attitudes in LOS are markedly different than most male attitudes in the West. Things are very easy here for them, they are used to being constantly pursued, and many do seem to have a very self-gratifying attitude when it comes to women.

I think the majority of foreign men have no idea how unacceptable they have become according to Western dating/sexual/romantic norms and expectations. I think many of them have no idea how glaringly obvious it is that their sexual approach and attitude towards women have been tainted by the sex trade, and easy and abundant opportunities.

Hence, many Western males assume a significantly different attitude, manner, and approach here in LOS than Western males in the West.

You immediately branded us as sex trade tainted men that have no idea how unacceptable we have become by western standards. Deal with our opinions as individual men and we might get a little further with this conversation.

I will not be branded and prejudged by someone who doesn't know me just because I'm a western male who chose to make my home in Thailand.

If you made a statement about whatever, I certainly wouldn't be as rude to say "Well, many farang women in Thailand think this way so......". I'd deal with your opinion as coming from an individual person.

That seems fair doesn't it?

I am talking about a pattern, and a significant number of men here in my and other women's experience here as a foreign woman.

A significant number, many, a lot, but not all.

You're right - I don't know you or LCross. I only know what I've read here and responded. But I know and trust my experiences and observations here very well, and that is enough for me in my personal life and decisions.

So even when someone says that they don't agree with your observations and would like to discuss it more theres no point, because your mind is already firmly made up and your not willing to accept that maybe you could be wrong? The point of discussion to you is more so you can give your opinion to others, but not to be willing to learn something new as you know everything already?

In the words of Luke Skywalker "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

^ OK, a little lightheartedness but I think its true. You should never trust your experiences and observations so completely that you are not open to others experiences and observations. In the end you have to look at the world through others peoples eyes as well as your own to get the full picture.

Leftcross and I offered you some of our own experiences and observations, you threw them back in our face and called us insulting and then started to go on about how many men in Thailand have been tainted by the sex trade amongst other things. Why not ask us as individuals why we think like that? Maybe the explanation is something you could think about, and dare I say learn from.

For you, I guess it does. But for me, it just confirms that I really would not be compatible with a large number of *English men.

*edit

Men in Thailand, English men, come on Kat, you can do better than that.

Leftcross made a point there, he said felt the same way in England, a point he made to counter your "men in LOS' arguments, and you respond by having a dig at his nationality.

I do admire the way you say 'many, a large number, a significant amount', but your blatant prejudice and discrimination against people based on their sex/ nationality/choice of 'home' country is obvious and quite frankly starting to wear a little thin.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

For your viewing convienence, the following is everthing that I have said on this thread. I feel that your responses to what I have supposedly said do not match what I've actually said. For that reason, I'm tired of responding. I'm simply burnt out.

And, I'm sorry if my quote about English males seemed like a dig.

If you want to wank then wank. Women are not a receptacle for a man's use. They are human beings with feelings and concerns.

That is the disgusting attitude towards women. You don't think it is? Well, I am a woman and I think it is. Kat is a woman and she thinks it is, and most people who are a bit empathetic would find it supremely selfish and self centered.

I think the last few posts outline the difference between male and female attitudes when it comes to sex.

Women, like it or not.. men can have sex without having any emotional connections with the person. This is not a new revelation, it's how it has been since forever... everybody knows about this.

Some men over do it a little as in that they can be pick 'em up and throw 'em away after, BUT many don't.

totster

In Thailand it's obvious that the male attitude is generally accepted and the norm. I was recently on a business trip upcountry and my female coworkers kept teasing our male coworkers about going out on the prowl at night (though all they were all known to have gfs/wives). No apparent show of disapproval at all.

Funny how the farangs that have been in Thailand for quite a while also adopt the habit.

Yes, Kitty, that's exactly what I mean. The male attitudes in LOS are markedly different than most male attitudes in the West. Things are very easy here for them, they are used to being constantly pursued, and many do seem to have a very self-gratifying attitude when it comes to women.

Quite simply: women are not urinals. I don't care if it's a wank or a shag, if you need to be told this then you are simply confirming why I DON'T find the majority of males here attractive.

Most women do find the act of sex more meaningful and it is the rare woman who casually beds any man she meets just to scratch an itch. Not saying they don't exist, but that it is not that common of an attitude amongst women and when you do find it, usually the woman has a very low self esteem.

'Most women', 'usually have low self esteem' - quoting facts and figures are we? Will Kat come along with a statistic from a Chula university student in a minute?

Letmesee: do I need a statistic to say that many men here would not be nearly as lucky back home? Well, off I go then

Totser:

I'm not branding men as disgusting because they think as men do. I'm branding certain attitudes by certain types of men as disgusting. I'm branding the type of man or male attitude that separates women out as wanks apart from sexual experiences/desire/attraction even for a night, is one that has accepted dehumanizing attitudes towards women as the norm. And yes, I find this disgusting beyond belief.

Contrary to what you may say, I am a woman and I have experiences with men as such.

I can tell you there is an overwhelming and undeniable difference in the male attitudes I have encountered in LOS, to those at home. In my view, this is not random, and it's no accident.

" ... You seem to know that there is a fundamental difference in the way men and women think, yet when you hear the thinking out loud you get all insulted. " Totster quote

I have heard men think out loud before. For me, casual sex here is not the issue. It's the attitudes and values of the men themselves. Women are not always privy to what men say amongst themselves, but we definitely know the difference in how they make us feel. You don't have to state what you say to us, because we will know by your actions.

I think the majority of foreign men have no idea how unacceptable they have become according to Western dating/sexual/romantic norms and expectations. I think many of them have no idea how glaringly obvious it is that their sexual approach and attitude towards women have been tainted by the sex trade, and easy and abundant opportunities.

No, I don't think they're all that way, but for obvious reasons, there are more significant numbers of them here.

Yes, Kitty, that's exactly what I mean. The male attitudes in LOS are markedly different than most male attitudes in the West. Things are very easy here for them, they are used to being constantly pursued, and many do seem to have a very self-gratifying attitude when it comes to women.

Maybe we are just more honest?

Quite simply: women are not urinals. I don't care if it's a wank or a shag, if you need to be told this then you are simply confirming why I DON'T find the majority of males here attractive.

What are you talking about, women as urinals?

Letmesee: do I need a statistic to say that many men here would not be nearly as lucky back home? Well, off I go then

Your clear prejudices and issues against men that live in Thailand are clear Kat but to be honest I would have hoped that you could have brought something more to the conversaton than personal angst. Quite dissapointing really.

You don't have to state what you say to us, because we will know by your actions.

So you can tell me with 100% accuracy every thought and feeling every man has had for you after having sex with you. What utter rubbish. What arrogance. What naiveity.

I think the majority of foreign men have no idea how unacceptable they have become according to Western dating/sexual/romantic norms and expectations.

And is the western dating/sexual/romantic norm the set world standard now? The official right way to do things?

I think many of them have no idea how glaringly obvious it is that their sexual approach and attitude towards women have been tainted by the sex trade, and easy and abundant opportunities.

Not all men are here are tainted by the sex trade Kat, do bear that in mind when having a discussion with men you don't know.

In all seriousness, while I enjoy dialogue with you sometimes BKKmadness, I feel that most of your responses here are idiotic, so I won't bother.

Let me just reiterate the obvious: I am a woman in LOS; I have varied contacts with foreign men here in LOS, as a foreign woman; the culture is different in LOS than most Westerners' shared Western culture; the female and male culture is different in LOS, and the male/female interactive culture is different in LOS; Western men are viewed and treated differently in LOS than in the West, and their daily prospects are different in LOS than in the West.

Hence, many Western males assume a significantly different attitude, manner, and approach here in LOS than Western males in the West.

Got it this time? 'hope so.

BKKmadness - this is what I mean about your responses here, although I am in no way trying to imply that you are an idiot because I know you're not - where do I say: "Well, your a man in Thailand, of course you all think like that!"

I am talking about a pattern, and a significant number of men here in my and other women's experience here as a foreign woman. But, this is based on my personal experience and and shared experience with other foreign women, so please don't expect it to be in the form of published research

You're right - I don't know you or LCross. I only know what I've read here and responded. But I know and trust my experiences and observations here very well, and that is enough for me in my personal life and decisions.

For you, I guess it does. But for me, it just confirms that I really would not be compatible with a large number of *English men.

*edit

Men in Thailand, English men, come on Kat, you can do better than that.

Leftcross made a point there, he said felt the same way in England, a point he made to counter your "men in LOS' arguments, and you respond by having a dig at his nationality.

I do admire the way you say 'many, a large number, a significant amount', but your blatant prejudice and discrimination against people based on their sex/ nationality/choice of 'home' country is obvious and quite frankly starting to wear a little thin.

My blatant prejudice? I am talking here about my direct experience, and a widely acknowledged experience of a lot of foreign women. I think I have been very clear here: based on my experience and on a direct quote here which supports what I've seen before, I prefer to steer clear of similar attitudes that I have recognized among a larger number of Western men here than I have ever seen anywhere else.

I mean, if you don't like my personal views based on my experience, then you should just wear off as far as I'm concerned.

For your viewing convienence, the following is everthing that I have said on this thread. I feel that your responses to what I have supposedly said do not match what I've actually said. For that reason, I'm tired of responding. I'm simply burnt out.

I took direct quotes from what you said on this thread. If there was a misquoted part, please let me know.

And, I'm sorry if my quote about English males seemed like a dig.

It was a dig. It was completely rude in fact. To 'blame' what he said on his nationality, rather than the individual, what shocking discrimination.

edit: coz I'd like to have a conservation, not make sarky remarks which do sometimes come out in the heat of the moment.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

<deleted> are you talking about? Where do I blame? I think you are a bit into dramatizing this into some sort of victimization as a lame defense. It is incredibly tiresome.

*edit: no problem, we can converse. I don't hold anything against individuals, until they give me a reason. And even then, I can be forgiving.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

My blatant prejudice? I am talking here about my direct experience, and a widely acknowledged experience of a lot of foreign women.

You've had a direct experience with many foreign men in Thailand, not all. Its a mistake to think we all act and think the same way just because we share the same sex and home country. Thats prejudging people you don't know. That's blatant prejudice.

I think I have been very clear here: based on my experience and on a direct quote here which supports what I've seen before, I prefer to steer clear of similar attitudes that I have recognized among a larger number of Western men here than I have ever seen anywhere else.

Supports a firmly made up mind it seems.

I mean, if you don't like my personal views based on my experience, then you should just wear off as far as I'm concerned.

You didn't seem to like Leftie's and my view, did I tell you to 'wear off', no I asked you to discuss it further, like adults on a discussion board. Instead you started making prejudice remarks, I disagree with them, and you tell me to 'wear off' if I disagree with you.

edit - another unconstructive comment removed.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

"I accept decadence as a complex historical mode. In late phases, maleness is always in retreat."

--Camille Paglia

<deleted> are you talking about? Where do I blame? I think you are a bit into dramatizing this into some sort of victimization as a lame defense. It is incredibly tiresome.

*edit: no problem, we can converse. I don't hold anything against individuals, until they give me a reason. And even then, I can be forgiving.

I do agree that perhaps blame wasn't the correct word, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

I'm not dramatizing victimization, but I would love a fair discussion based on the wank/sex comments that you found insulting to women (something I disagree with) without all the 'many men in Thailand/tainted by the sex trade' kind of comments.

To be honest it gets my back up to be lumped in with others like that and told I think a certain way because other many men in Thailand think like that, as I'm sure it would get your back if simlar comments were made about directed at you based on my experiences of other farang women in Thailand.

It doesn't get us anywhere and as Leftcross said, he had the same thought back in England so its a weak argument really.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

[You've had a direct experience with many foreign men in Thailand, not all. Its a mistake, to think we all act and think the same way just because we share the same sex and home country.

Yes, I think I have been saying a significant number, not all. I've been talking about patterns that have been dominant for me here. I don't think everyone is the same from the same country. I do know better than that. But I think there is something to say about cultural outlooks and attitudes, and that's what has been important for me.

From what I've seen and heard, the majority of English male society would not value me very highly either, so it goes both ways.

I think I have been very clear here: based on my experience and on a direct quote here which supports what I've seen before, I prefer to steer clear of similar attitudes that I have recognized among a larger number of Western men here than I have ever seen anywhere else.

Supports a firmly made up mind it seems.

Yes, I've seen more than enough proof. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't consider exceptions.

I mean, if you don't like my personal views based on my experience, then you should just wear off as far as I'm concerned.

You didn't seem to like Leftie's and my view, did I tell you to 'wear off', no I asked you to discuss it further, like adults on a discussion board. Instead you started making prejudice remarks, I disagree with them, and you tell me to 'wear off' if I disagree with you. Surely a woman of your education should know how to hold a discussion by now.

Well thank you. I'm definitely trying to hold a discussion here

*edit: the quote functions have not been consistent for me lately, My quotes are in bold inside the poster boxes.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

<deleted> are you talking about? Where do I blame? I think you are a bit into dramatizing this into some sort of victimization as a lame defense. It is incredibly tiresome.

*edit: no problem, we can converse. I don't hold anything against individuals, until they give me a reason. And even then, I can be forgiving.

I do agree that perhaps blame wasn't the correct word, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm not dramatizing victimization, but I would love a fair discussion based on the wank/sex comments that you found insulting to women (something I disagree with) without all the 'many men in Thailand/tainted by the sex trade' kind of comments. It doesn't get us anywhere and as Leftcross said, he had the same thought back in England so its a weak argument really.

No, I really don't think it is based on this reasoning. I think many like-minded men are attracted to a place for like-minded reasons. I explained the wank commenat as dehumanizing; please go over and read it again if need be.

I stand by my other comments, because that is truly what I have experienced and observed. I also fully explained that it is not just the sex trade, but other environmental factors.

From what I've seen and heard, the majority of English male society would not value me very highly either, so it goes both ways.

Well you can be sure, not this member of English male society.

Quite curious though, how you know what the majority of English male society thinks? Have you spent a significant time in England?

No, I really don't think it is based on this reasoning. I think many like-minded men are attracted to a place for like-minded reasons. I explained the wank comment as dehumanizing; please go over and read it again if need be.

Do you really think only men that come to a place like Thailand could make such a comment?

As Leftcross said earlier, he had the same thought in England, what's the explanation there?

I got here a long time ago and then left for the Western world where I tried to exist for 30 miserable years.

I think I am an example of what Kat means.

I act differently in Thailand.

On a positive note I can have conversations with women that have absolutely nothing to do with sex.

I can invite a woman out to dinner and have absolutely no ulterior motive.

I can state my opinions without regard to any future consequences in the bedroom.

Why? I am not frightened of being alone.

I had an inferiority complex in the West.

Here, I have no false assumptions of love.

I have a realistic view of what is going on.

When Thai women ask me what my name is I tell them “ATM.” They can’t pronounce Kerry anyway.

Please don’t interpret that as a slam against Thai women or Western women. Although I can see how one might arrive at that conclusion.

It is a reminder to me not to get emotionally involved and a protection of my ego.

This is not the same as the Western world.

In the West I would temper my conversation knowing that my happiness that night might depend on my knowledge of feminist authors.

Some might say this is a shallow or worse a sexist existence.

I don’t know a Thai woman that I could explain the above statement to in Thai and actually have her understand it. And having explained it I doubt if she would really care (well maybe two).

So, yes Kat you are right as far as I am concerned. This is not the same playing field as in the West.

The odds are not the same. Men are effected by this change in logistics.

I think once a man lives in Thailand he finds it extremely difficult to adapt to Western culture.

The gymnastics I went through in the West to find a suitable partner simply are not necessary here and that becomes obvious after only a short time in the LOS.

I might suggest that men are more real here. Not having to live up to a set of standards that they don’t agree with. If one finds a mate here perhaps they can actually trust what a man says as his real thoughts.

It seems to me that in the West men have to be more circumspect about their emotions and feelings and no one really knows what is really going on inside the male brain.

I find this a more honest place. Although I can understand Kat’s view of the male of the species is less than admirable here.

I might suggest it is a result of seeing the real male as opposed to the less than honest males of Western society.

I also want to publicly reconsider something:

For various reasons that also precede this thread and my stay in Thailand, I had reached a general conclusion that I am not culturally compatible with a large number of white English males. This is a long story, so this is the abridged version.

And when I mention culture, I am not just referring to my American nationality, but my ethnicity.

I am not saying that I do not find English males physically attractive, because if you checked the *"desirable men" thread in the ladies forum, I think I must of listed half of them who are British or English (I didn't realize this until after I listed them so it wasn't planned). I am simply talking about experiences I have had with them, and observations of their male behavior with women, and in particular, their comments about women. I have observed this and confirmed it on 3 separate experiences in my life: living in Europe, living in Thailand, and working on a group university project with students from England. I got on well with all of the males on that project except English males. Again, I promised the abriged version, so I'll stop here.

Then I just went and checked another thread, and was reminded of another poster here who I like a lot, who is English, and it made me reconsider.

I'm not closed to anything, and I can see the line between my personal experience and the wider experience. But, I do know very clearly what I have experienced.

*edit - I mentioned these guys: Gabriel Byrnes, Ralph Fiennes, and Pharrell from N.E.R.D. I forgot to mention Clive Owens - for anyone who's interested, lol.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

I might suggest it is a result of seeing the real male as opposed to the less than honest males of Western society.

I think you are right only up to a point. I think for some males it is the *real male - for the ones who stay. But I do get your play on "real" and "honest". However, my definition of a real man is different.

edit: I just realized I'm in danger of misrepresenting what I mean. I am merely responding to your quote, I am in no way passing judgement on whether or not I think you fit my idea of a real man or not.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

I can invite a woman out to dinner and have absolutely no ulterior motive.

I want to use this quote to highlight something I said to Kat earlier. She gave her opinion on her experiences with foreign males in Thailand and I said "Maybe we are more honest".

For example you meet a guy in the west and he's been with a prostiute then I bet he'd never admit it to a wetsern woman whilst sharing a beer with her, because more often than not the guy has ulterior motives, whether its trying to bed the woman, or trying to mantain his reputation as one of the good guys.

Now flip that over to Thailand where a guy will often have less ulterior motives towards a western woman, would he care about telling her he went with a prostitute? Probably not.

Don't you think that gives western woman a skewed view of men out here, even though they are just being more honest?

I think you'll always get a more honest opinion of how men view sex from men in this country than men at home.

edit: ok, just seen you already mentioned this kerryk, sorry.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

Nah, because most of the men I am interested in at home are not that stereotypical. I find them to be much more so out here.

*edit: Bkkmad - I'm not judging men because they visit prostitutes. I'm judging their attitudes towards women. There is a HUGE difference for me.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

Nah, because most of the men I am interested in at home are not that stereotypical. I find them to be much more so out here.

I don't think I know what I am getting myself into here....but, I have read many a post here and other places from men and I can only think, dinosaurs didn't die out, they moved to Thailand.

Yeah, except that a growing number are younger men, and they have not been exempt.

Yeah, except that a growing number are younger men, and they have not been exempt.

Really. Can you expand on that, I am curious?

There are a growing number of younger men in Thailand. They are not exempt from some of the same attitudes that I try to steer clear of.

There are a growing number of younger men in Thailand. They are not exempt from some of the same attitudes that I try to steer clear of.

Oh, okay. I thought you meant western men.

Yes, I do mean younger Western men.

Yes, I do mean younger Western men.

Why do you think that is? A break down of morals back home? A break down of morals outside the home country?

I just realized I keep talking about attitudes without stating what they are.

In my experience, one of the overall shared traits I've seen in many of the men I've dealt with (regardless of nationality), is insecurity. They seem to retreat or resent the slightest bit of challenge, resistance, or unpredictability.

The second is a numbed or cavalier attitude toward their sexaul approach. They all seem to expect to be pursued or treated like rock stars, and many seem to definitely have this dehumanizing whore/madonna idea in their head, and have internalized the "free sex" mentality.

It seems like their only distinctions are girlfriend or prostitute, very much along the lines of the comment which provoked this discussion *(well actually, that comment was even worse becasue at least a prostitute is a paid person who is present, rather than a wank).

*edit: And I need to add, the distinctions one can make about this are not always readily apparent in their persona, but definitely in their sexual approach. That's one of the ways that an aware woman can tell.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

For various reasons that also precede this thread and my stay in Thailand, I had reached a general conclusion that I am not culturally compatible with a large number of white English males.

this is well off topic, and not a moan at you Kat, just something I'd like to discuss based on your comment here. Its something said with complete respect by the way.

I get the impression that you like to box people into catergories you're comfortable with Kat. I don't really see the benefit of that and I'm not sure why you do it.

I wouldn't say I'm compatible with lots of people, in fact one of my favourite things about this country is that I can spend a whole day outside without having to talk to someone or exchange nods or make small talk.

But I think if I started grouping people into catergories of who I'm not compatiable with/who I am compatible with/who I'm mostly compatible with based on their colour/nationality/sex I'd be heading down a dangerous path and end up naturally closing my mind off to certain people.

To be honest, and feel free to disagree with me here (I know you don't need telling that! ) it does seem to me that you have already headed down this path with regards to white males in Thailand. Maybe thats something your not aware of, or maybe I'm completely wrong, but its an observation I am making. Thoughts?

edit - chucked in a smiley so it dont all go haywire again!

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

*edit: Bkkmad - I'm not judging men because they visit prostitutes. I'm judging their attitudes towards women. There is a HUGE difference for me.

I don't understand this Kat.

It's these attitudes (at least some of them) towards women that allow men to visit prostitutes. I thought that was you whole big beef with men.

In one sentance you are judging men saying treating women like a "wank" is disgusting, and now you are saying that you don't judge them for visiting prostitutes.. ?? What exactly do you think men visit prostitutes for ? It isn't just for a talk with tea and cakes.

So, how can there be a huge difference between the two ?

totster