Kat - wouldnt you say in the West, ladies are the ones being pursued? So when Men find it is perhaps the other way around - they take full advantage of the opportunities given to them??

I just realized I keep talking about attitudes without stating what they are.

In my experience, one of the overall shared traits I've seen in many of the men I've dealt with (regardless of nationality), is insecurity. They seem to retreat or resent the slightest bit of challenge, resistance, or unpredictability.

The second is a numbed or cavalier attitude toward their sexaul approach. They all seem to expect to be pursued or treated like rock stars, and many seem to definitely have this dehumanizing whore/madonna idea in their head, and have internalized the "free sex" mentality.

It seems like their only distinctions are girlfriend or prostitute, very much along the lines of the comment which provoked this discussion.

*edit: And I need to add, the distinctions one can make about this are not always readily apparent in their persona, but definitely in their sexual approach. That's one of the ways that an aware woman can tell.

I don't disagree in the least. I have been a part of many a "male" conversation and I must say I see these two things alot. I don't know if you remember me saying I had a problem with flirting? Well, these attitudes are what I was trying to get at somewhat. I see men act a certain way when talking to women and I find it much like what you are talking about and I find both pretty disgusting. I have determined that I will raise my daughter to be super picking about men. Sometimes I think she would have a better chance at a happy healthy relationship if she is gay.

*edit: Bkkmad - I'm not judging men because they visit prostitutes. I'm judging their attitudes towards women. There is a HUGE difference for me.

Ah yeah I know that, just offered a quick example of something a man maybe dishonest about in the west but not out here.

For various reasons that also precede this thread and my stay in Thailand, I had reached a general conclusion that I am not culturally compatible with a large number of white English males.

this is well off topic, and not a moan at you Kat, just something I'd like to discuss based on your comment here. Its something said with complete respect by the way.

I get the impression that you like to box people into catergories you're comfortable with Kat. I don't really see the benefit of that and I'm not sure why you do it.

I wouldn't say I'm compatible with lots of people, in fact one of my favourite things about this country is that I can spend a whole day outside without having to talk to someone or exchange nods or make small talk.

But I think if I started grouping people into catergories of who I'm not compatiable with/who I am compatible with/who I'm mostly compatible with based on their colour/nationality/sex I'd be heading down a dangerous path and end up naturally closing my mind off to certain people.

To be honest, and feel free to disagree with me here (I know you don't need telling that! ) it does seem to me that you have already headed down this path with regards to white males in Thailand. Maybe thats something your not aware of, or maybe I'm completely wrong, but its an observation I am making. Thoughts?

edit - chucked in a smiley so it dont all go haywire again!

BKKMad: I am so outside of the box both in the things I have not chosen such as my identity, and in my values and *point of view (pov) it is maddening for most. For me, it's perfectly clear and rational.

I do not put people into boxes as you said. I see what's there, and I find patterns. I am able to see the wider pattern and the breaks within the pattern and the breaks within those. I am able to hold more than 2 thoughts in my head at a time BKK. If you are able to continue to say that I put nationality or people into boxes based on race and ethnicity, then I really think you are using selective vision to support a selective pov.

*edit: Bkkmad - I'm not judging men because they visit prostitutes. I'm judging their attitudes towards women. There is a HUGE difference for me.

I don't understand this Kat.

It's these attitudes (at least some of them) towards women that allow men to visit prostitutes. I thought that was you whole big beef with men.

In one sentance you are judging men saying treating women like a "wank" is disgusting, and now you are saying that you don't judge them for visiting prostitutes.. ?? What exactly do you think men visit prostitutes for ? It isn't just for a talk with tea and cakes.

So, how can there be a huge difference between the two ?

totster

I think this is a really excellent question. I don't view commercial sex workers as evil or disgusting, but as women. I don't view males who patronize CSW as evil or disgusting, but as males who patronize CSW. I view peoples attitudes or actions as evil or disgusting.

I think it comes down to honesty. If a person, and in this particular disussion - a man - is honest with himself, he can be honest with a woman. If he is honest with a woman, he is already showing respect for himself and her. His honesty is an acknowledgement of their humanity. *I think real honesty is far more complicated than simply blurting out your truth, but also acknowledging your place in that truth.

For me, a real man always treats a woman like a woman, regardless of whether she is a CSW or a farang woman in Thailand. When he starts to make distinctions on this basic premise (or any other), he has already shown his true value of all women.

Kat - wouldnt you say in the West, ladies are the ones being pursued? So when Men find it is perhaps the other way around - they take full advantage of the opportunities given to them??

Yes, I would, except here the men have a real chip on their shoulders about it and need to prove it. Or, at the very least, they don't need to try very hard and this changes their behavior.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

In my experience, one of the overall shared traits I've seen in many of the men I've dealt with (regardless of nationality), is insecurity. They seem to retreat or resent the slightest bit of challenge, resistance, or unpredictability.

The second is a numbed or cavalier attitude toward their sexaul approach. They all seem to expect to be pursued or treated like rock stars, and many seem to definitely have this dehumanizing whore/madonna idea in their head, and have internalized the "free sex" mentality.

It seems like their only distinctions are girlfriend or prostitute

It seems to me like you've met a real number of shitty guys in Thailand.

You say you've seen insecurity in men in Thailand. What sort of percentages (roughly of course) are you talking about here, in 90% of the men you've met, 10%?

Where do you meet most of these guys? This reminds me of reading comments in the general topics section where some guy is talking about Thai women all wanting money or Thai people all being scammers but its generally the case that they haven't met a wide enough variety of people to experience much different.

Kat - wouldnt you say in the West, ladies are the ones being pursued? So when Men find it is perhaps the other way around - they take full advantage of the opportunities given to them??

Yes, I would, except here the men have a real chip on their shoulders about it and need to prove it. Or, at the very least, they don't need to try very hard and this changes their behavior.

So Kat... is this closer to the real point. Is it that because men are in a roll that the women are in the west (the being chased roll) that western females feel uncomfortable with it.. even to the point where they become quite bitter ?

totster

BkkMad: Well, I'm sorry if it seems that way. I'm merely sharing my experience here, I'm not making any publishable claims. I have friends who have had different experiences. But even their experiences have some limitations, from my pov. I am not seeking never-ending flings but an adult relationship with mutual respect, in addition to chemistry, passion, etc.

I haven't thought to put my personal sample into a statistic , so I'll have to think about it. I really don't like revealing too much about my personal life, but I guess it's too late now

At any rate, I can tell you that the overwhelming (and I mean almost all), were either inveterate liars bordering on the ridiculous (the SEA men), or they were seriously abusive (foreign), and/or married or just looking for a wank as you guys say . I am grown-up enough now to recognize these traits fairly early and get the hel_l out dodge. Now, I can spot them sooner and just avoid it all together.

And in terms of the last category: I don't have anything against pure lust or casual sex. It's just that women here as a whole are so incredibly stigmatized, I think we have all been affected by it and so I have just preferred to stay out of it and wait until I am on familiar turf as a woman, where I can be judged for myself, rather than categorized or treated as some sub-human life form.

*edit - I've met these guys everywhere you'd meet guys in any other city: in coffee shops, pubs, clubs, friends. I have to add that most of the guys that I've met travelling have been very different than the expat men.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

I do not put people into boxes as you said. I see what's there, and I find patterns. I am able to see the wider pattern and the breaks within the pattern and the breaks within those. I am able to hold more than 2 thoughts in my head at a time BKK. If you are able to continue to say that I put nationality or people into boxes based on race and ethnicity, then I really think you are using selective vision to support a selective pov.

No, I dont really care about pushing my point of view or winning an argument, I like to learn about people thats why I asked about it. It did to me seem that you put white english males into a box/catergory just by calling them white english males but I suppose we have to disagree about that.

Yes, I would, except here the men have a real chip on their shoulders about it and need to prove it.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion with a lot of the men in Thailand, but its not all men, and I would say that from all the male friends I know in Thailand, none of them have this particular chip on their shoulder.

Wanking/sex, two sexual acts that can easily be compared and likened, I still don't see what the problem is with that? The needs the same, the end result is the same, why are they so different?

What is wrong with saying that the end result of a wank/casual sex often feels the same, after all the main part of the physical act (the orgasm/ejaculation) is exactly the same.

I don't understand why an honest description of how a man feels physically after an orgasm is acheived despite it happening in two different ways is insulting to women.

Kat - wouldnt you say in the West, ladies are the ones being pursued? So when Men find it is perhaps the other way around - they take full advantage of the opportunities given to them??

Yes, I would, except here the men have a real chip on their shoulders about it and need to prove it. Or, at the very least, they don't need to try very hard and this changes their behavior.

So Kat... is this closer to the real point. Is it that because men are in a roll that the women are in the west (the being chased roll) that western females feel uncomfortable with it.. even to the point where they become quite bitter ?

totster

No, I really don't think so, not in most of what I'm saying. To be perfectly honest with you, I think it is the males who are the most bitter by and large. I think there is enough bitterness to go around on both ends, but in my case that is not the origin. I came here without any real knowledge of this, with no preconceptions, and started feeling this unnamed hostililty almost immediately. The other subtle things that involve attraction took a while to figure out.

I do not put people into boxes as you said. I see what's there, and I find patterns. I am able to see the wider pattern and the breaks within the pattern and the breaks within those. I am able to hold more than 2 thoughts in my head at a time BKK. If you are able to continue to say that I put nationality or people into boxes based on race and ethnicity, then I really think you are using selective vision to support a selective pov.

No, I dont really care about pushing my point of view or winning an argument, I like to learn about people thats why I asked about it. It did to me seem that you put white english males into a box/catergory just by calling them white english males but I suppose we have to disagree about that.

Yes, I would, except here the men have a real chip on their shoulders about it and need to prove it.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion with a lot of the men in Thailand, but its not all men, and I would say that from all the male friends I know in Thailand, none of them have this particular chip on their shoulder.

Wanking/sex, two sexual acts that can easily be compared and likened, I still don't see what the problem is with that? The needs the same, the end result is the same, why are they so different?

What is wrong with saying that the end result of a wank/casual sex often feels the same, after all the main part of the physical act (the orgasm/ejaculation) is exactly the same.

I don't understand why an honest description of how a man feels physically after an orgasm is acheived despite it happening in two different ways is insulting to women.

Because a wank is something you do alone. It's basically saying you use someone for your own gratification. I think even the most casual of sex should try harder than that.

No, I dont really care about pushing my point of view or winning an argument, I like to learn about people thats why I asked about it. It did to me seem that you put white english males into a box/catergory just by calling them white english males but I suppose we have to disagree about that.

Sorry, Bkk, but that is a defining cultural feature. That is not a box that has to confine, but it is a cultural and racial fact. I am not responsible for this. Nor is is unfamiliar to white English society. I have on more than one occassion found out how people from my background are thought of over there.

*edit - clarification: I'm not really talking about racism here, because that is everywhere. But on the one hand, everyone complains about American political correctness, and I totally understand, believe me - I'm one who also complains about blind aspects. But, it is also there as a result of real multicultural changes in attitudes. I've heard things said in British society that would never be acceptable in American society. I've detected in more than one example certain attitudes that they hold toward different body types and looks, that are very racial but they don't recognize it as such, but a non-white person does.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a discussion or judge English society here. I'm just trying to give you an idea of some of the clues that I've picked up about attitudes white English society, and espeically males, most likely have about me.

**Also, I'm sorry to say this, but 3 of the males that I had a potential relationship/whatever here were English, 2 non-white, all three in various stages of abusive. This is not to say that I think all English men are abusive. But I think the combination of what I stated above and previously have influenced me somewhat. But, I've also met some great men, but I haven't been involved with them, so maybe it's just my taste or the men I meet - yeah, that's possible. Of course I'm part of the equation.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

I have on more than one occassion found out how people from my background are thought of over there.

WHAT ??

There is a section of the community in the UK that is still bigoted... but "people from your background" are a ###### sight more integrated into society than they are in the US.

What a stupid thing to say.

totster

At any rate, I can tell you that the overwhelming (and I mean almost all), were either inveterate liars bordering on the ridiculous (the SEA men), or they were seriously abusive (foreign), and/or married or just looking for a wank as you guys say . I am grown-up enough now to recognize these traits fairly early and get the hel_l out dodge. Now, I can spot them sooner and just avoid it all together.

I understand that you have developed these traits for your own personal protection (against time wasting if not anything else) but I think you should be careful not to make assumptions too soon about people.

You should never be so confident in your own abilitles as to think you can judge people with 100% accuracy all of the time especially if you find yourself in a position where you are over eager to judge them. Sometimes giving people the benefit of the doubt until you can reach a conlusion based on more facts is the wise move.

No, I really don't think so, not in most of what I'm saying. To be perfectly honest with you, I think it is the males who are the most bitter by and large. I think there is enough bitterness to go around on both ends, but in my case that is not the origin. I came here without any real knowledge of this, with no preconceptions, and started feeling this unnamed hostililty almost immediately. The other subtle things that involve attraction took a while to figure out.

I gotta say I know its tough to be a white women in Thailand, lets face it, its a mans world here and I see the amount of abuse and bitterness on the main board about it with pathetic comments about farang women (have these people forgotten their mothers and sisters?), but I've read a few comments on the ladies forum recently that made me think that the bitterness is being thrown back at western men in Thailand with just as much lack of thought.

Sorry, Bkk, but that is a defining cultural feature. That is not a box that has to confine, but it is a cultural and racial fact.

So people act and are defined according to their race, sex and nationality?

I am not responsible for this. Nor is is unfamiliar to white English society. I have on more than one occassion found out how people from my background are thought of over there.

There racists in England but to start discriminating against white English male culture makes you exactly the same as them.

People should always be treated as individuals.

I've detected in more than one example certain attitudes that they hold toward different body types and looks, that are very racial but they don't recognize it as such, but a non-white person does.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a discussion or judge English society here. I'm just trying to give you an idea of some of the clues that I've picked up about attitudes white English society, and espeically males, most likely have about me.

You seem overly paranoid to such a degree that you've become your own worst enemy Kat.

I'm white, Im English and I'm male from a working class council estate that was predominatly white by a massive percentage (about 97%) when I lived there. Based on those facts, I assume you'd consider me a racist, but its far from the truth because I think like an individual, and not someone who can be defined so easily by my sex, race or nationality.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by bkkmadness

I have on more than one occassion found out how people from my background are thought of over there.

WHAT ??

There is a section of the community in the UK that is still bigoted... but "people from your background" are a ###### sight more integrated into society than they are in the US.

What a stupid thing to say.

totster

Fc*k off. I'm not stupid, and it is not a stupid thing to say. I really don't think English society is as integrated in attitudes as so many like to think. I've certainly met enough West Indian British and Pakistanis who think so (I wish there was a finger smiley, but there isn't).

I really don't think you are getting me. Again, I think this is cultural. Why on earth would I think you were racist simply because you lived in a predominantly white area?

You're just not getting what I'm saying, and it's too complicated to explain, because our dialogues and references are simply too different, which is what I was trying to explain to poor effect.

example, your quote: "You should never be so confident in your own abilitles as to think you can judge people with 100% accuracy all of the time especially if you find yourself in a position where you are over eager to judge them. Sometimes giving people the benefit of the doubt until you can reach a conlusion based on more facts is the wise move."

Didn't I already acknowledge this on previous posts

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

Fc*k off. I'm not stupid, and it is not a stupid thing to say. I really don't think English society is as integrated in attitudes as so many like to think. I've certainly met enough West Indian British and Pakistanis who think so (I wish there was a finger smiley, but there isn't).

Yes.. it is a stupid thing to say. And I take exception to it.

The remark was not even needed and was only put in as a veiled insult to the english posters here.

I have read on many occasion about the differences of attitudes towards minorities in the UK and US, and from that it seems that the US is far behind.

There are always going to be some minorities that will feel that they are being given a hard time, thats unfortunate.. I wonder how many West Indian British and Pakistanis you have actually talked to and what percentage of those were negative.. or maybe you are just interested in the disenchanted.

Have you spent an extended time in the UK and seen this for yourself ?

totster

You seem overly paranoid to such a degree that you've become your own worst enemy Kat.

hmmm, you think so? Maybe the men are their own worst enemy. Have you actually read some of these threads, and the things they say about women's bodies? I have.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

Fc*k off. I'm not stupid, and it is not a stupid thing to say. I really don't think English society is as integrated in attitudes as so many like to think. I've certainly met enough West Indian British and Pakistanis who think so (I wish there was a finger smiley, but there isn't).

Yes.. it is a stupid thing to say. And I take exception to it.

The remark was not even needed and was only put in as a veiled insult to the english posters here.

I have read on many occasion about the differences of attitudes towards minorities in the UK and US, and from that it seems that the US is far behind.

There are always going to be some minorities that will feel that they are being given a hard time, thats unfortunate.. I wonder how many West Indian British and Pakistanis you have actually talked to and what percentage of those were negative.. or maybe you are just interested in the disenchanted.

Have you spent an extended time in the UK and seen this for yourself ?

totster

You've read things on the US and UK - well so have I. How many people of color or non-white viewpoints have you actually listened to in the UK and the US for that matter, before you start accusing them of making veiled insults and calling them stupid?

*edit: One other thing: why would I need to make a veiled insult when I am trying to have a real dialogue here, and have revealed personal details about myself n good faith and in the spirit of real dialogue? If anything, you are the one who has made veiled insults which I tried to overlook, before you jumped all over me.

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

Also, I'm sorry to say this, but 3 of the males that I had a potential relationship/whatever here were English, 2 non-white, all three in various stages of abusive. This is not to say that I think all English men are abusive. But I think the combination of what I stated above and previously have influenced me somewhat. But, I've also met some great men, but I haven't been involved with them, so maybe it's just my taste or the men I meet - yeah, that's possible. Of course I'm part of the equation.

Of course its possible, in fact its the very point. For quite a time when I was younger all the Indian people I knew were drug dealers, of course I never thought that all Indian people were drug dealers but realised that I knew those people because of the circles I chose to be in. How can you only be realising this quite obvious fact now?

I understand you're not saying here that all English men are abusive, but to even allow your thoughts to be influenced by relationship experiences with just 3 English males (out of how many, 30 million?) is ridiculous.

This is again going back to the point I made earlier about not just fully trusting your own observations and experiences as the be all and end all.

You've read things on the US and UK - well so have I. How many people of color or non-white viewpoints have you actually listened to in the UK and the US for that matter, before you start accusing them of making veiled insults and calling them stupid?

You sound as if you think you are the representive the black/minority population. You're not.

So.. I was accusing you of making a veiled insult.. not the entire black/minority population of the US and UK.

And you may think you've been wrong by me calling you stupid.. but that was a stupid thing to say, which had no relevence to the topic other than to insult, and I didn't like it.

totster

You seem overly paranoid to such a degree that you've become your own worst enemy Kat.

hmmm, you think so? Maybe the men are their own worst enemy. Have you actually read some of these threads, and the things they say about women's bodies? I have.

Which men, men in LOS, white english men or just everyone with a penis?

OK, just give me here a quick example of something you consider unsuitable for a male to say about a womans body. Just so I know we are on the same level because I imagine I will probably find something funny that you find disgusting, and I'd like to know why that is.

If I find out why you think one way and you find out why I think another on a particular comment it might be pretty constructive.

[so maybe it's just my taste or the men I meet - yeah, that's possible. Of course I'm part of the equation.

Of course its possible, in fact its the very point. (uhm yes, it's (one of) the points that I made).

...I understand you're not saying here that all English men are abusive, but to even allow your thoughts to be influenced by relationship experiences with just 3 English males (out of how many, 30 million?) is ridiculous. (It's not merely my intimate relationship with 3 English males. I thought I made that clear. It is a larger pattern that I have noticed over time, in many different contexts. And I should remind you, it is concerning what I find to be my personal issues about compatibility

This is again going back to the point I made earlier about not just fully trusting your own observations and experiences as the be all and end all. (uhm, back to the beginning)

I'm in bold

Edited August 7, 200619 yr by kat

You've read things on the US and UK - well so have I. How many people of color or non-white viewpoints have you actually listened to in the UK and the US for that matter, before you start accusing them of making veiled insults and calling them stupid?

1. You sound as if you think you are the representive the black/minority population. You're not.

2. So.. I was accusing you of making a veiled insult.. not the entire black/minority population of the US and UK.

3. And you may think you've been wrong by me calling you stupid.. but that was a stupid thing to say, which had no relevence to the topic other than to insult, and I didn't like it.

totster

1. Do you mind clarifying what you mean here. I am not THE representative, but I am representative of the same ethnicity and cultural background. Hence, THE question: How many people of color or non-white viewpoints have you actually listened to in the UK and the US .....

2. And my further and previous point: why the <deleted> would I bother to make a veiled insult toward you or anyone, when I'm perfectly capable of making a direct one.

3. No relevance? and YOU didn't like it? So you felt it was reasonable to jump on me in the middle of an honest discussion and call me stupid because you didn't like it? And they say Americans don't get irony

Wanking/sex, two sexual acts that can easily be compared and likened, I still don't see what the problem is with that? The needs the same, the end result is the same, why are they so different?

What is wrong with saying that the end result of a wank/casual sex often feels the same, after all the main part of the physical act (the orgasm/ejaculation) is exactly the same.

I don't understand why an honest description of how a man feels physically after an orgasm is acheived despite it happening in two different ways is insulting to women.

Because a wank is something you do alone. It's basically saying you use someone for your own gratification. I think even the most casual of sex should try harder than that.

Yes its true, I have had sex with women purely for my own gratification, as has every other man in this world. Its a fact, people have sex becuase they get pleasure from it. People have wanks coz they get pleasure from it too. Not insulting to women at all to state that very obvious fact.

BKKmadness:

Your comments are so offbase from what I'm actually saying I don't think it's even worth continuing. If you want to have sex simply to gratify yourself as if it is sex between you and an extra orifice, you should have a wank or pay someone. But even in the case of paid sex, I would expect a man to have more respect for another human being than that.

I really don't think you are getting me. Again, I think this is cultural. Why on earth would I think you were racist simply because you lived in a predominantly white area?

You do know how to change the words around Kat, I didn't say just because I lived in a predominatly white area, I gave you my class, race and nationality as well.

I got this impression from the following when I asked you why you put white english males into a box:

Sorry, Bkk, but that is a defining cultural feature. That is not a box that has to confine, but it is a cultural and racial fact. I am not responsible for this. Nor is is unfamiliar to white English society. I have on more than one occassion found out how people from my background are thought of over there.

and I also took your paranoia from this post about white english males:

I'm just trying to give you an idea of some of the clues that I've picked up about attitudes white English society, and espeically males, most likely have about me.

and formed the conclusion that as a white english working class male you would have catergorised me and no doubt considered me to have racist thoughts about you. Well, most likely anyway.

If you want to have sex simply to gratify yourself as if it is sex between you and an extra orifice, you should have a wank or pay someone. But even in the case of paid sex, I would expect a man to have more respect for another human being than that.

All men at sometime or another have had sex simply to gratify themself. Do you not realise that? How is it disrespecting another human? Women have causal sex to gratify themselves as well.

Do you honestly believe that when men or women have sex they always do it with their main thought to gratify someone else?

Nothing to do with disrespecting people, its human nature. You can't call human nature disgusting can you?

"I'm white, Im English and I'm male from a working class council estate that was predominatly white by a massive percentage (about 97%) when I lived there. Based on those facts, I assume you'd consider me a racist, but its far from the truth because I think like an individual, and not someone who can be defined so easily by my sex, race or nationality."

Those were your words, Madness. I seriously think this conversation teeters on the absurd at times.

In terms of categorizing you: I already said in every society there is dominant mass culture, and there is the individual. I am on friendly terms with men on this board with those same characteristics. I am commenting on a pattern of attitudes I have encountered. Not you as a person. But our cultural, ethnic, racial, national, and socio-economic backgrounds inform a lot of who we are, don't you think?

I don't categorise or lock anyone into a box based on assumptions, and even then, they are not locked in. I think that's clear by the way I've interacted with widely diverse posters. If you haven't seen it, than that's your neglect not mine.

Nothing to do with disrespecting people, its human nature. You can't call human nature disgusting can you?

No quite frankly, as I've made abundantly clear, I find men who hold attitudes like that disgusting. I am also quite tired of your harangue. What I really find happening here is that you are trying to shove me into a box so that you can try and discredit me according to your selective reasoning.