Shower heaters

[eng911]

I have been a wealth of questions around here these last few days. Its great to be back in Thailand. Each day brings new questions. Thanks guys for all your help.

Shower heaters. Do you guys just leave them on all the time? We don't use them in Canada. We use mostly gas heated central hot water tanks. It looks like they draw no power until the water flows through. Am I right?

They have a little LED but I think that's it. We bought one for mom at Thai Watsadu for 3500 THB and one of the locals installed it for 400 THB

It seems to work good. No more buckets over the head. We're living large here!

[KhunBENQ]

It looks like they draw no power until the water flows through. Am I right?

Of course you can leave it on, as they consume little to no power whem they are not in use.

I switch them off with the circuit breaker (outside the bathroom) when not needed "just for safety".

Little power: for the "ON" LED if any.

I hope your installer took effort in supplying proper grounding.

Edited October 11, 2014 by KhunBENQ

[steveG]

Wall mounted shower water heater only draws power when the water is flowing. Get a good high powered unit if you like a decent level of warm water flow.

[DILLIGAD]

It looks like they draw no power until the water flows through. Am I right?

I hope your installer took effort in supplying proper grounding.

Water and electricity are a very dangerous mix!!. Please ensure each shower has been grounded/earthed correctly and there should also be a separate electrical supply (for only the shower) coming straight from your electrical consumer unit.

P.s. Maybe this is in the wrong forum?

Edited October 12, 2014 by DILLIGAD

[wayned]

I have a 6 kw heater in the bathroom that I use, none in my wife's as she refuses to use it unless it's really cold and then she uses the other bathroom. She prefers a lot of water pressure and the shower units limit the flow. When she showers it's more like a typhoon in the bathroom!

The scariest thing that the OP said was "one of the locals installed it for 400 THB"! Water and electricity don't mix. You should have an RCBO on the input to your consumer unit in addition to the one that is installed in the heater and the unit should be "earthed" to a 2m rod driven into the ground which would normally be connected through the consumer unit. You should also insure that it has it's own breaker,20 amp, and the correct wire size for the run from the cu to the heater, at least 2.5mm if the run is not too long.

If you had a local install the unit where I live he would find the closest outlet and wire into that by cutting and twisting the wires together and would not install a proper ground. If you house is wired like a normal Thai house it's an accident looking for a place to happen.

[kamalabob2]

In 2008 I bought six Stiebel Eltron Multi Point DHA 4/8 under the counter hot water heaters from Home Mega Mart In Buriram. The electrical sub contractors of my house building contractor did a fine job installing each hot water heater under a kitchen counter or respective bathroom basin counter. Each Stiebel Eltron water heater has a proper circuit breaker. The plumbers used VRH stainless 304 flexible hot water hose from the mixer tap to the ANA valve in the wall under the counter. They used P-PR green hot water pipe for the longer of the multiple runs in each kitchen or bathroom. No need to see the on demand hot water heater. After the original warranty period had ended three of the units had electronic component issues. I paid a nominal service fee to Ruangsangthai Water Pump shop in Buriram to have the faulty units removed. I placed them in a box, I mailed them to the Stiebel Elton repair service center in Bangkok. They e-mailed me a fee to repair each of the three units. It was fair enough, so I transferred the money and in about 5 more days the repaired same Stiebel Eltron water heaters arrived in Buriram Province. I then phoned Mr. Pichai the owner of Ruangsangthai Builders Merchants and he sent qualified plumbers to install the 3 hot water heaters. He discounts and repairs Toshiba wall mounted shower water heaters and Toshiba multi point under the counter water heaters in Buriram, but that large store was not built until August 2012. Stiebel Eltron is a fine German brand, with a major hot water heater factory in Thailand. I'd consider a Toshiba or a Stiebel Eltron of Panasonic Hot water Shower heater if one of these six units could not be repaired at a fair price in the future. Any brand requires a certain water pressure or water flow to "kick on". NO need to have a hot water heater mounted on the wall in your actual shower if you were building a new bathroom and could plan for the PPR green hot water pipe, the water valve, and suitable electric cable, to be below your bathroom counter vanity. We actually have one of the Stiebel Eltron water heaters provide hot water for basin taps in two adjoining bathrooms and one shower faucet. They do not seem to consume electric power until you turn on the mixer tap.

[eng911]

Thanks for the great answers guys. I should have said the local who installed it was a friend who is an electrician. He did use the large grounding rod as I saw that myself. I'll have another look in the morning to see what he tied into. He did provided a breaker switch outside the bathroom on the wall. I'll have a better look in the morning.

I went on and on so long about not having some local who says he knows how to do it. I was told the guy was an electrician. I too was first and foremost concerned with safety.

The other problem we have is water pressure. If any other tap in the house is on then the pressure is insufficient to trigger the heater. The pressure problem was one I predicted before the unit was bought. Sometimes the pressure is very low.

The water comes from a central water tower in the moo ban I guess. I was wondering why each house doesn't have a big tank that fills up from the central source? This would give you better pressure no? Village plumbing is not my specialty.

I'll have a better look at the install but I definitely saw the ground spike.

Tony

[KhunBENQ]

I can not even imagine a decent farang living without my own water tanks and a pump.

We have two tanks with 3000 liter in total and a 250 W water pump,

A lot of threads about this on the forum.

[Issangeorge]

Get your own holding tank and run an inline pump just after the water comes out of the tank, it only comes on when you turn on the water. That's what I did and now I have lots of pressure, and if you make your holding tank big enough you aren't affected by the variances in the town water.

[happynthailand]

if your getting low water pressure,on the water heater

try changeing the hand shower thinge,had that happen to me,could not get the heater to turn on before 9:00pm,as low pressure

chaned the shower head to another brand,how hot water any time low pressure or now

Edited October 12, 2014 by happynthailand

[wayned]

The only way that you will get more pressure is to put a large tank that fills from the local water supply with a ball cutoff when it is full. You then have to connect the outlet of the tank through a pump and then to the house plumbing. Since your house is small you don't need a very large pump, They are available from 5 - 6k baht. You are talking about about a 9-10k baht investment for the tank and pump.but it will give you what you want. There's a thread one the DIY forum that discusses this in detail with pictures and drawings.

[Martyjustice]

I have 2 Panasonic models. Its the only one with a press on and press off water flow on the unit. The are two valves on bottom of unit. One contains a screen filter the other a pressure adjustment. Either can cause low flow.

[wayned]

Although the filters and shower heads can cause a problem even with good pressure, the OP's problem is the incoming water pressure from the local supply. It is very low and sometimes non existent. Mine is the same way as I get water from tanks about 10 meters off the ground about 1 kilometer away and I'm the last on the line. The pressure is always either low or there is no water so I had to install a tank and pump or it would be the old bucket bath!

[kamalabob2]

Eng911 might not need any of the three water purification metal tanks in the attached photo. But it is a good bet if he had a similar constant pressure water pump and at least a 1000 liter water tank with the proper, (not expensive) valves, bits and pieces) installed by a pro, he would have great water pressure for his hot water heater in Isaan. The prices of water tanks and proper Mitsubishi Water Pump or Hitachi water pumps from the independent family owned water pump specialists in most any province will be lower cost than a big Box retail store. In my personal experience having the right "team" of plumbers install your water pumps, water filters and water tanks, with an owner who will guarantee the workmanship for years to come, is worth seeking out. Buriram has such a water pump shop, but I can't imagine other provinces including Surin, Maha Sarakham or Nakhom Ratchasima Province do not have such a water pump shop with actual employees who do the installations. I know the price I paid in labor from Ruangsangthai was half the price quoted in writing by the Buriram HomePro for installation services. HomePro will give you a written price quote via e-mail for most any water pump installation. You may find a significantly lower price from a family owned lower overhead higher volume water pump dealer who has an actual repair team and actual repair shop inside the store in your Isaan province. "Put in a box and ship to Bangkok" is a poor excuse for customer after the sales service in my experience. You may also find the store owner who speaks and understands English at a family owned water pump shop in Buriram, Nakohm Ratchasima, Surin or Maha Sarakham Province.

[klikster]

Our new build has separate hot and cool water piping. We have a Stiebel Eltron 150 L, 3500 watt tank-style heater (well-grounded). We also have a 1,200 L float-controlled tank supplying an inline pump. The system works great -- plenty of pressure. And, surprisingly, the wife takes warm water showers often.

[eng911]

The unit is properly installed from what I can see. The ground spike and breaker are in place. It is true we are almost the last on the line and water pressure is always low. I understand I could install a storage tank at the house and fill that from the source, then use a pump to increase the pressure. That would be overkill right now. Even though the pressure is low it works and the water is warm. My brother inlaw and I discussed the issue and he may look at things again later but right now the kids have a warm shower and they love it. He's still using the bucket.

I use the low flow hot shower because anything beats cold buckets of water over your head.

Thanks for all the info here guys. It has been helpful to me and I'm sure others in the future.

Tony

[kamalabob2]

Eng911: A pressure tank, expansion Tank, Bladder Tank or Diaphragm Tank is easy to have installed in Buriram Province. It must be the same situation in other provinces in Thailand where a water pump shop will at no charge send a staff person to your home, take a real look at the situation, ask your wife questions in Thai and then the shop plumber can report to his boss. You can then meet at the water pump shop in your province and speak English with the owner or manager about your actual water pressure situation. The shop owner can write down prices, warranties and optional installation labor charge to see you have great water pressure, use your water pump less and not take a cold shower unless you select to have a cold shower. You might not need a Mitsubishi Super Pump, but the shops in Thailand that are authorized to sell, install and repair a Mitsubishi Super Pump are the better focused water pump shops. 5500 baht is the going price for a 200 liter pressure tank.

[klikster]

Before we started our build, I was planning to use a Rinnai gas demand heater. My wife pleaded with me to use electric because she is so afraid of gas. Since she will surely be stuck with the system after I'm gone, I went the electric tank heater. I had it mounted on an exterior wall (raised terrace) next to the washing machine.

[KunMatt]

I can not even imagine a decent farang living without my own water tanks and a pump.

We have two tanks with 3000 liter in total and a 250 W water pump,

A lot of threads about this on the forum.

Same setup we've been using for a few years, the pump is probaby a bit too powerful though. Our ensuite is about 20m from the pump and the pressure at the shower is enough to shoot a horizontal jet of water onto the opposite wall 2m away. I have to turn the faucet on just enough to engage the pump so the 4.5kW heater can sufficiently heat the water otherwise the flow is too much for the heater.

[Liquorice]

KunMatt, on 18 Oct 2014 - 08:28, said:

KhunBENQ, on 12 Oct 2014 - 20:30, said:

I can not even imagine a decent farang living without my own water tanks and a pump.

We have two tanks with 3000 liter in total and a 250 W water pump,

A lot of threads about this on the forum.

Same setup we've been using for a few years, the pump is probaby a bit too powerful though. Our ensuite is about 20m from the pump and the pressure at the shower is enough to shoot a horizontal jet of water onto the opposite wall 2m away. I have to turn the faucet on just enough to engage the pump so the 4.5kW heater can sufficiently heat the water otherwise the flow is too much for the heater.

Sounds like you have a problem with the heater element in your shower.

I only have a 3.5Kw shower, 1000Ltr tank and a 250W pump about 5m away from my en-suite.

Like you I only open the water inlet tap half way to regulate the water pressure, but I have no problems getting hot water.

In fact I only set the temperature gauge at half way, or the water is to hot.

[KunMatt]

KunMatt, on 18 Oct 2014 - 08:28, said:

KhunBENQ, on 12 Oct 2014 - 20:30, said:

I can not even imagine a decent farang living without my own water tanks and a pump.

We have two tanks with 3000 liter in total and a 250 W water pump,

A lot of threads about this on the forum.

Same setup we've been using for a few years, the pump is probaby a bit too powerful though. Our ensuite is about 20m from the pump and the pressure at the shower is enough to shoot a horizontal jet of water onto the opposite wall 2m away. I have to turn the faucet on just enough to engage the pump so the 4.5kW heater can sufficiently heat the water otherwise the flow is too much for the heater.

Sounds like you have a problem with the heater element in your shower.

I only have a 3.5Kw shower, 1000Ltr tank and a 250W pump about 5m away from my en-suite.

Like you I only open the water inlet tap half way to regulate the water pressure, but I have no problems getting hot water.

In fact I only set the temperature gauge at half way, or the water is to hot.

I also have the heater set to about 60% and the water is very hot. If I put the water on full flow I would have to put the heater on 100% and it would only be warm which just seems like a waste of electricity and water.

[Liquorice]

eng911, on 12 Oct 2014 - 19:19, said:eng911, on 12 Oct 2014 - 19:19, said:eng911, on 12 Oct 2014 - 19:19, said:

Thanks for the great answers guys. I should have said the local who installed it was a friend who is an electrician. He did use the large grounding rod as I saw that myself. I'll have another look in the morning to see what he tied into. He did provided a breaker switch outside the bathroom on the wall. I'll have a better look in the morning.

I went on and on so long about not having some local who says he knows how to do it. I was told the guy was an electrician. I too was first and foremost concerned with safety.

The other problem we have is water pressure. If any other tap in the house is on then the pressure is insufficient to trigger the heater. The pressure problem was one I predicted before the unit was bought. Sometimes the pressure is very low.

The water comes from a central water tower in the moo ban I guess. I was wondering why each house doesn't have a big tank that fills up from the central source? This would give you better pressure no? Village plumbing is not my specialty.

I'll have a better look at the install but I definitely saw the ground spike.

Tony

Thai electricians take short cuts.........if it works it's OK................safety, what's that!

Outside the property you have an electric meter. A tail from the meter will feed your consumer unit (live and neutral wires). The consumer unit should be earthed (grounded) by the earthing rod. Then all electrical cables should run from the Consumer Unit to the appliances, connecting the earths together in the CU.

What the Thai's frequently do when fitting a shower is to fit an isolation switch outside the bathroom door, but then they connect the electric cable to the incoming feeds (in the ceiling, between meter and CU), usually twisted and taped together. You'll be lucky if the earth is connected to anything.

Yes, the isolation switch will turn off current to the shower, but;

1. The isolation switch cannot be isolated, it is always live.

2. The shower isn't fused.

If you ever need to change the isolation switch, you have to disconnect the tails from the outside meter.

They do the same with Air Con units as well!

You can switch off all the fuses you want at the Consumer Unit, but the shower and Air Cons will still work...........frightening.

To install a shower correctly, first work out the cable size and correct fuse size.

Divide the Watts by the Current to find the Amps, i.e. a 4.5Kw shower is 4,500W divided by 220V = 20.45 Amps.

A 2.5mm gauge, twin and earth cable should be sufficient up to a 6Kw shower.

Fit a 6mm gauge, twin and earth cable for anything above a 6Kw shower.

Run the cable from the shower to a correctly rated double pole isolation switch outside the room, then run it to your Consumer Unit, connected to a suitable trip switch.

In your case eng911, the isolation switch and the trip switch should both be rated at 32 Amps.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Faz

[Liquorice]

eng911, on 12 Oct 2014 - 19:19, said:

Thanks for the great answers guys. I should have said the local who installed it was a friend who is an electrician. He did use the large grounding rod as I saw that myself. I'll have another look in the morning to see what he tied into. He did provided a breaker switch outside the bathroom on the wall. I'll have a better look in the morning.

I went on and on so long about not having some local who says he knows how to do it. I was told the guy was an electrician. I too was first and foremost concerned with safety.

The other problem we have is water pressure. If any other tap in the house is on then the pressure is insufficient to trigger the heater. The pressure problem was one I predicted before the unit was bought. Sometimes the pressure is very low.

The water comes from a central water tower in the moo ban I guess. I was wondering why each house doesn't have a big tank that fills up from the central source? This would give you better pressure no? Village plumbing is not my specialty.

I'll have a better look at the install but I definitely saw the ground spike.

Tony

You'd need to fit a Water Tank and a Pump to resolve the water pressure problem. Quite common in Thailand.

The tank and pump need to be on a level surface, so I built a concrete base 2.5m x 1.5m x 6cm deep.

The cost for all materials, including 1000Ltr water tank, 250W pump, external socket for pump, pipes, fittings etc, around 14,000 baht.

I fitted a new Consumer Unit as well in that price so the Shower and the external plug socket had their own dedicated trip switch.

[willyumiii]

The way most water pipes are installed above the ground here in Thailand, I have no difficulty getting water that is warm enough for taking a shower.

But I have no use for a "Cold water" tap in the sink .

There is no cold water in Thailand!!

I cut myself and got a blood stain on a shirt last week.

I told the wife that if she washed the blood stain in cold water, it would come out.

she asked " Where do I get cold water?"

Good question..other than from the refrigerator, I do not know where to get cold water!

Now, a wall mounted water cooler.....that would be handy!

[Issangeorge]

If you live in Isaan, there is lots of cold water the end of December through the middle of February.

[Mudcrab]

Slightly of topic...but has anyone ever bought a large water tank, say a poly tank 20,000 litres? I'd like to collect rainwater as I'm very suspect of the water quality from the bore we have - insecticide/herbicide run off from the rice paddies. We don't drink it or use it for cooking but we do use it for washing/showering.

I've only ever seen fairly small tanks for sale at global House etc.

[slipperylobster]

It looks like they draw no power until the water flows through. Am I right?

I hope your installer took effort in supplying proper grounding.

Water and electricity are a very dangerous mix!!. Please ensure each shower has been grounded/earthed correctly and there should also be a separate electrical supply (for only the shower) coming straight from your electrical consumer unit.

P.s. Maybe this is in the wrong forum?

A good "dealer" will offer installation at a reasonable price. Do not do it yourself....and do not trust one that looks like a monkey installed it (tape and lose wires hanging around inches from where the water comes out. I almost got killed in the house we rented. We were getting shocked just standing on the wet floor while taking a shower. There was a burned out hole in the front of the unit. 3000 baht (or a bit more for a larger model) is a good investment. We are getting a new one in November. It will be purchased from Home Pro...with a proper installation and warranty.

A separate switch (fusebox) and GFI will be utilized, as well. We rent, so the whole kit will leave...when we do. Therefore I must ensure it can easily, and safely, be disconnected.