Sex Tourism

[kerryk]

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

No, I think it's quite clear that I was comparing your rationale of "that's the way it is here" to similar rationales elsewhere. As an ethical argument it is simply meaningless.

Yes, I do recognize that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases - did I say anything different or contradictory to that effect???? Please go back and if you so choose comment on what I DID say, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact.

Kat,

Your words, “ I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact”

Prostitution is legal in some parts of the United States and Australia and is rampant in the parts where it is not legal. The same can be said for Great Britain France, Spain, Italy, Japan and almost any other country that I know of.

Maybe you can point out a country that does not have prostitution but I can’t think of any.

Far from being a threat to the dignity of a country it is the standard for earth and has been since humans began.

I can see numerous ways to make it safer for all parties involved but as far as effecting the dignity of a nation I don’t see that has anything to do with it. Or if it does at least we are all in the same undignified boat.

Here we go - comparing prostitution here to prostitution in other countries. Not all similar or like things are equal - not even prostitution itself! You know this, I know this, and we all know this, so let's not even waste time going there. *Perhaps YOU do not have to worry about travelling abroad as a Thai woman with a Thai passport, but most do and that is very real, and it did not appear overnight.

We are talking about scale and scope here - magnitude. The size and scope also determines the impact on social norms, development, formal economy, and future progress. If prostitution has begun to take on the same characteristics of a sizeable, formal sector in an economy that is still transitioning, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the impact this can have on the future skills set, education, development and ethics of a society.

*which is an example of magnitude, if you had to ask.

I think I get your point about equals. So lets talk equals. Singapore, Costa Rica and Brazil. You will hear them compared at any bar in Bangkok on any given day. All three have major industries of adult entertainment very much like Thailand.

I think you really feel that bar girls or bar guys are exploited people.

I think a lot of people on this thread think the bar owners are exploiting them.

You compare the experience to poor black people or countries under dictatorial rule.

That point of view on this thread is supported by people who have little experience with bar persons or people in the bar business.

Bar owners are compared morally to drug dealers or worse.

People on this thread who are bar owners or have experience with bar persons do not support the view that bar persons are exploited.

I guess there are two points of view about the people who know bar persons. The first is that they are more informed than people who don’t know bar persons. The second is that they can’t see the forest for the trees or are prejudiced by their lack of morals.

As higher paying jobs become available outside the bar industry there will be less of a bar industry. The only way to get higher paying jobs is foreign investment. Or the Thais could open up new sources of revenue like taxing the bar persons but then they would have to admit they exist. Thais are ostrich conservatives. As long as they can’t see it is not happening.

Foreign investors are snubbing Thailand because of restrictive legislation and shoddy and incomplete infrastructure and lack of incentives.

Foreign investors are going to China and India. India being the new home of child prostitution since Thailand stopped most of it, has little to do with investment incentives.

If you want to increase the standard of living of poor Thai people the place to start is with ethnocentric politicians, liberalize banking opportunities, land ownership, tax laws, and internal investment opportunities.

Your point of view comes from a moral high ground and mine from an economic background and a life working with minimum wage employees.

When I was a kid I lived in a town in Texas with a reputation for hookers and we had a large amount of local brothels. A number of oil companies moved into the town and built a deep water port and refineries and all of sudden the lowest paying job in town was $18 dollars an hour.

Everyone got a new job and a new pick up truck and the brothels closed for a couple of month till they could bring ladies from Mexico to fill the newly vacant spots.

We didn’t get rid of prostitution but at least it wasn’t Texas women anymore.

The same thing will happen to Thailand if it experiences economic growth. The ladies will be brought in from somewhere but at least they won’t be Thai ladies and that will probably make traveling with a Thai passport easier.

[chownah]

So...bar fines....pay the woman's wages (plus a bit extra methinks) to the bar and she can leave for a holiday.....should I try that at a bank....if I meet a woman who works at a banks should I expect that if she is willing I could pay the bank her daily wages and we could skip off for a holiday....no?....why not? How about a woman working at Mcdonalds or some woman working in a gov't office....no?....why not?

[Sing_Sling]

I think I get your point about equals. So lets talk equals. Singapore, Costa Rica and Brazil. You will hear them compared at any bar in Bangkok on any given day. All three have major industries of adult entertainment very much like Thailand.

What? Mate, you've been smoking something, haven't you? Sorry for the derogatory comment, but your responses so far have been interesting and a good read (however, debatable), but then you come up with this comment . . .

(I wonder how many Bangkok bar-lushes have been to Brazil, Costa Rica and Singapore)

[JRingo]

Sex slaves

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=76574

So, some agent showed up and entered into another agreement with her father

Lets say 10,000 baht and off she goes to a Phuket bar.

Now, what do you suppose happens next? The agent just says to her…you can

work here at this bar but you can leave anytime you want?

No of course not. He has an investment in the girl and needs to recoup.

The agent wants his money back. I have absolutely no doubt that bar owners pay

the agent for the “finders fee” maybe 10,000 baht with the further understanding that

the girl will work at the bar, not run away and share her barfines with the owner.

The agent who has an agreement with the father for some monthly or timely payments

will look after her and collect a percentage of what she has earned and handle the

business back home.

She doesn’t run away because she knows if she does her father will go to jail.

This is how she is held in bondage or sexual slavery.

This could partly explain the barfine. The bar owner has an investment also and he

needs to recoup, so he gets a little here a little there from the barfines.

It also explains why if you want to buy out a girl permanently from a bar the owner

will want a payment of about 10,000 baht to recoup his original outlay.

Of course bar owners are never going to own up to this, especially here.

And I expect a bunch of you know it all customers will tell me how I got it all wrong.

Up north where I met Oeye, there were lots of these little ban pooyings and they were

all very young and for the local market. I believe most if not ALL the girls were there

under similar circumstances and could not leave.

These young girls were kept close to home for a few years while they were groomed for

the tourist sex markets of the South.

These dirty little secrets make the barfining barowner much worse than a lowly pimp.

[baboon]

Such things occour of course,but I think you are grossly overestiming the problem.Thailand in general is modern enough now to broadcast such injustices to its citizens and I doubt there are m

any out there who would be duped so easilly.

Is Oeye your girlfriend?

[Wolfie]

Any particular reason you've opened up this new thread instead of continueing your old one?

[mittheimp]

shouls stick with your original thread jringo - such flooding isn't going to win you the arguement!

[boppia]

This thread has nothing to do with the plight of the poor in Thailand. It's all about morality, mine vs yours etc.

If you want to know about what goes on in a bar, go there and ask the girls. If you haven't been in many, you may never know. For those of you who claim to be moral, go talk someone of a different faith. If you want the truth you, need to throw all your preprogamming out the window and find the truth.

Some of what has been posted here is true. A lot of it is just spite or something like that I would guess.

[Kerryd]

tourleadersi - you're not missing anything. kerryd is just having trouble coming to terms with what sort of a person he has become, that's all. he has managed to construct a lovely image in his mind where farm girls are given work by him and are not there to prostitute themselves. in his eyes the prostitutes are simply staff who are there to work in the bar. maybe his bar is different and there arent 10 girls sitting around eating som tam for 10 hours every day until someone gives him 400 baht for their flesh.

You have no idea who I am, or how I have come to be the person that I am.

This is most obvious by the fact you assume I own a bar. I don't. I live here, and most of my friends are Thais that I associate with on a daily basis. Some work in bars, some don't. I also know a few bar owners and managers, farang and Thai.

And I know very well that most of the girls that work in certain areas are available for P4P, if they choose to.

I also know that many girls do NOT get involved in the P4P business, yet they still work in beer bars and go-go bars. So guess what ? I said this before as well, but it obviously takes some people a little longer to get it:

NOT ALL THAI WOMEN ARE PROSTITUTES ! Was that loud enough ? Are you getting it yet ?

By your logic, they are all hookers though, because they work in bars.

the drug dealer comparison is valid and easy to make. i simply changed one word and the whole thing read plausibly because there isnt that much difference between the pimps and the drug dealers.

Once again you prove that you in fact know little, if anything, about what you speak. Have you ever actually met a real pimp (as opposed to a bar owner) ? Have you ever actually met a real drug dealer (not the little guys trying to sell a dime bag of weed, but the bad guys pushing crack, smack and coke) ?

There are a few pimps that also deal drugs, usually as a way of luring more women into the business (get them addicted then put them to work on the streets).

To compare bar owners to real pimps and real drug dealers is ludicrous. But don't let that stop you. If you want to keep impressing us with what you don't know, carry on !

his arguments are the standard defence - i didn't start it, the thais did it first, the girls come to me, i have to make a living etc etc the one thing that is missing is any kind of sense of moral evaluation of what he is doing.

My arguments are the facts, plain and simple. Remembering of course that I don't (and never have) own a bar/club, or even have any connection to one in any way.

Moral Evaluation ? Give me a break. You question my morals when you yourself state that "i have no moral objection to prostitution or to the people who use prostitutes". Last time I checked, prostitution was illegal (here and in England) and considered immoral (here and in England).

his stupid statement that the bar fine doesnt have anything to do with sex is perhaps the most ridiculous statement i've heard since i started living in thailand. it is yet another sign that he is unable to be a man and admit what he is doing to himself.

Huh ? What I'm doing to myself ? You really don't have a clue do you ?

You think you know everything there is to know about bargirls, "pimps" and barfines, yet you admit that you don't use prostitutes, rarely drink, and "don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps" (direct quote)

So all your expertise comes from.........where ?

My knowledge comes from the people actually involved. Unlike you, I do drink fairly frequently. I do mix in circles of bar girls, bar managers and bar owners. I've been to the rural villages where some of these girls come from. I've seen where the money they earn goes. I've met the parents and other relatives.

And I've paid a h3ll of a lot of bar fines over the years. I have no problem admitting that. And guess what ? Some of the girls I bar fined were prostitutes !

Another shocker ! Some of the girls I bar fined were NOT prostitutes !

And NOT one of them was forced into working as a prostitute. And NOT one of them was forced to work in a bar/club that charges barfines. And EVERY one of them is free to leave when ever she wants. And NOT one of them is obligated to have sex with a customer, even if the customer pays her bar fine.

One thing I haven't heard from the "other" side, is a solution to the problem. Simply eliminating bar fines won't work. Firing staff that skip out of work in mid-shift won't work. Getting rid of prostitution will never happen.

So tell me, based on your expertise on the matter, what is the answer ?

[lannarebirth]

“I don’t want to be a pimp, but it’s how things work here,” says one expat bar-owner.

Well, he ought to know.

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/71/Travel_To_Thailand.html

[mittheimp]

Moral Evaluation ? Give me a break. You question my morals when you yourself state that "i have no moral objection to prostitution or to the people who use prostitutes". Last time I checked, prostitution was illegal (here and in England) and considered immoral (here and in England).

Prostitution is not illegal in England actually! although i do believe most consider it immoral!

Ironically it is illegal in Thailand!!

Edited July 24, 2006 by mittheimp

[Rinrada]

.

It also explains why if you want to buy out a girl permanently from a bar the owner

will want a payment of about 10,000 baht to recoup his original outlay.

..and of course Westerners/farangs etc.being civilised and having been brought up with the principals of freedom,honesty,justice,integrity, respect ....and all that.... would never ever contemplate being part of such a sordid menage...right...

[simon43]

Jeez . . . I've missed all this . . .who is this moral crusader??

(Must remind the wife to close up the bar and send the sisters back home....)

Simon

[leftcross]

kerryd

NOT ALL THAI WOMEN ARE PROSTITUTES ! Was that loud enough ? Are you getting it yet ?

By your logic, they are all hookers though, because they work in bars.

are you insane? where did anyone say all thai women were prostitutes? we are talking about bar girls who are able to be bar fined - perhaps 99.9% of those girls are prostitutes?? why would anyone bar fine a barfineable girl if it wasnt for sex?

jesus man, stop being so naive.

Once again you prove that you in fact know little, if anything, about what you speak. Have you ever actually met a real pimp (as opposed to a bar owner) ? Have you ever actually met a real drug dealer (not the little guys trying to sell a dime bag of weed, but the bad guys pushing crack, smack and coke) ?

There are a few pimps that also deal drugs, usually as a way of luring more women into the business (get them addicted then put them to work on the streets).

To compare bar owners to real pimps and real drug dealers is ludicrous. But don't let that stop you. If you want to keep impressing us with what you don't know, carry on !

yes ive met real drug dealers. they give the exact same excuses you do to defend pimping thai women.

Huh ? What I'm doing to myself ? You really don't have a clue do you ?

You think you know everything there is to know about bargirls, "pimps" and barfines, yet you admit that you don't use prostitutes, rarely drink, and "don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps" (direct quote)

So all your expertise comes from.........where ?

married now but when i used to come to thailand on holiday i did the same as you. i am talking from experience.

And NOT one of them was forced into working as a prostitute. And NOT one of them was forced to work in a bar/club that charges barfines. And EVERY one of them is free to leave when ever she wants. And NOT one of them is obligated to have sex with a customer, even if the customer pays her bar fine.

i would compare it to drug addicts and drug dealers again but it just goes straight over your head.

One thing I haven't heard from the "other" side, is a solution to the problem. Simply eliminating bar fines won't work. Firing staff that skip out of work in mid-shift won't work. Getting rid of prostitution will never happen.

So tell me, based on your expertise on the matter, what is the answer ?

i never said to get rid of prostitution i said i found the act of westerners peddling dirt poor thai farm girls to be morally bankrupt.

you havent given a single plausible reason why you and your friends should be entitled to charge bar fines. you can't because you are simply pimps.

you are not providing a service, you are not helping anybody out of the goodness of your hearts - you are pimping thai girls. that's all there is to it.

[Lacoste]

Jeez . . . I've missed all this . . .who is this moral crusader??

(Must remind the wife to close up the bar and send the sisters back home....)

Simon

Strange thing is Simon your not kidding.

Did your wife enjoy working in the bar and going with customers before she met you?

You yourself said when she came out of 'the scene' she needed time to recover both physicaly and mentaly, so i dont understand why you make it out as a joke.

[mrbojangles]

Prostitution is not illegal in England actually!

Quite right, as long as she/he doesn't solicit i.e. hanging about street corners.

However, pimping and running brothel's are illegal in England.

[leftcross]

for anyone remotely interested in the subject i can recommend two books to read 'my name is lon, do you like me? and 'welcome to the bangkok slaughterhouse'. both are in asia books and both show how these girls end up selling their bodies for western and thai pimps to profit from.

for anyone with a daughter they are hard reading.

[mrbojangles]

you havent given a single plausible reason why you and your friends should be entitled to charge bar fines. you can't because you are simply pimps.

you are not providing a service, you are not helping anybody out of the goodness of your hearts - you are pimping thai girls. that's all there is to it.

I think if you read Kerry's replies, he clearly states that "HE DOES NOT" own a bar, so i think it is unfair to call him a "Pimp"

[Lacoste]

And I've paid a h3ll of a lot of bar fines over the years. I have no problem admitting that. And guess what ? Some of the girls I bar fined were prostitutes !

Another shocker ! Some of the girls I bar fined were NOT prostitutes !

And NOT one of them was forced into working as a prostitute. And NOT one of them was forced to work in a bar/club that charges barfines. And EVERY one of them is free to leave when ever she wants. And NOT one of them is obligated to have sex with a customer, even if the customer pays her bar fine.

How do you know the above? Is this a line of questioning you go about with during your seedy outings?

You can try to dress the seedy lifestyle up as you like, but the fact is the guy charching barfines is a pimp.

Cant change the fact no matter how you try to make it sound.

[Thaipwriter]

the guy charching barfines is a pimp.

Cant change the fact no matter how you try to make it sound.

You cannot run a business where your employees demand instant leave of absence from the workplace at the employers expense.

The barfine plays no part in any transaction that occurs between punter and girl/lady/boy.

It is merely to compensate the employer for loss of his salaried employees during working hours.

Let me say this directly to Leftcross and Lacoste, you appear to be the most adamant on the pimp label in this entire thread.

The minute you ever paid any money for sex in Thailand you guys crossed over a line that you cannot suddenly step back over and pretend you are squeaky clean anymore.

I don't care if you are married now with kids and a model lifestyle, at some point in time you arrived in Thailand and you probably went with prostitutes.

Most males reading and contributing to this thread would have to admit this.

"Folks that live in Glass houses should not throw stones"

[cooL_guY_corY]

lots of my friends and neighbours from when i lived in phuket, were bar girls and you know like a lot of them dont like it, but a lot of them embrace it movie star style. some of these people love to party and get crazy, but considering how we are all the same age where i lived ( 18-21) maybe its just the age, although i know older people who have been in the game for a long time and are still enjoying themselves. Some people seem to grasp the concept that they are selling themselves and they dont like it and some just (like to?) think they are just so popular or good looking that they can cash in on it. A common theme is that the money is for the family though. Although many of my friends are disgusted at their familly, calling every day on end demanding loads of bahtz... some familes are in the know and some aren't although when your up north its pretty easy to do the math when your neighbours are having a big party ft. old man farang and sangsom time for everyone or maybe even ( !!!) walker black label? who knows. People should stop talking down to (and / or ) about bar girls.. these are people just like you or me, i like how the majority of people @ tv are in this competition of acting like their magical wives or gF'Z are not bar girls or are, or how they justify that their partner is such a great person and they were "rescued" from the bar scene by magical captain farang. People are people and if you have long term relationship where you are happy then go for it, if you are just getting takin advantage of (read: paying unlimited bahts ???) then you should think of what you are doing. there is a lot of true love out there with real people, where money isnt involved and a lot of people here have probably experienced that and a lot of people here have probably seen the other side of that coin too. myself iam a pretty free spirit, i don't try to judge people but i would always help my friends out with their sms's to old man germany or finland or whatever, basically what it comes down to for some people is just companionship. its a real mixed bag, i dont think this is adding up anymore. stay cool

[mittheimp]

The barfine plays no part in any transaction that occurs between punter and girl/lady/boy.

It is merely to compensate the employer for loss of his salaried employees during working hours.

Oh come on!!!! If you are going to make a point - make it sensible - so a girl is taken out of a bar with 2 hours till closing time - is the bar fine just to componsate for this employee not being there? How much is the bar fine - about 60 baht!! I think not!!!!

Edited July 24, 2006 by mittheimp

[chownah]

In the event that your working establishment is raided just say that you were forced to do it...then the gov't might give you some money and send you to trade school.....I know school sucks but its better than jail.

[longway]

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

No, I think it's quite clear that I was comparing your rationale of "that's the way it is here" to similar rationales elsewhere. As an ethical argument it is simply meaningless.

Yes, I do recognize that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases - did I say anything different or contradictory to that effect???? Please go back and if you so choose comment on what I DID say, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact.

...and if you took away prostitution as a whole overnight, you would create another raft of problems.

i think kerry's economic case is overstated, but its too easy to sit on a high horse and look down on the sex trade.

i think the sex trade is sleazy but i believe that being practical about the issue is a more realsitic approach.

girls within the sex trade are more likely to have psychological problems and have issues with drugs and so on, but do you really think that many of these girls would have had happy, secure and fulfilled lives if they were not involved.

its economics like it or not. until thailand develops further it will exist on a large scale and i would say its an intrinsic part of the process.

i hope it diminishes over time but the mindless name calling is pathetic (not you btw kat)

[tourleadersi]

Jeez . . . I've missed all this . . .who is this moral crusader??

(Must remind the wife to close up the bar and send the sisters back home....)

Simon

Strange thing is Simon your not kidding.

Did your wife enjoy working in the bar and going with customers before she met you?

You yourself said when she came out of 'the scene' she needed time to recover both physicaly and mentaly, so i dont understand why you make it out as a joke.

Thats a bit personal don't you think? Don't recall Simon making comments worthy of such a response.

[simon43]

Strange thing is Simon your not kidding.

Did your wife enjoy working in the bar and going with customers before she met you?

You yourself said when she came out of 'the scene' she needed time to recover both physicaly and mentaly, so i dont understand why you make it out as a joke.

Not sure I recall saying those exact words, so please do remind me of the thread.

To be honest, she never said to me that she didn't like her job. To her, it was just a job to make money. In any case, she wasn't working in a gogo bar (too short in height...), so she was lucky to get one paying customer a week.

Don't forget that many of these paying customers do not pay for sex with the girl. Many of them simply pay for the company of the girl. In our BKK bars, it was a rare event for a girl to end up in bed with a customer. Usually, the girl went out for a meal or to a karaoke, (lots of Japanese customers who are more interested in singing than sex).

I have met loads of 'working girls' over the past few years, (as the result of running these bars in BKK). 100% (yes 100%), of them ahave said that they are in their job because that is what they want - because it makes them good money. The potential sexual part of it seems to mean very little to them, certainly it doesn't seem to concern them at all).

Perhaps it is a different situation for girls that I never met. I can only comment on the many working girls that I know.

If there is any mental anguish, then I think this will be on the farang partner of an ex bar-girl. Us westerners find it very hard to accept that a woman will go with a man for money. (If your GF had 10 boyfriends prior to you then that's ok, but if she had 10 paying customers then that is hard to accept).

I've got over this mental anguish, (and I did have it!). I can't change the past, so there is no point getting concerned about it. Water under the bridge...

I joke about it because that's what many of these girls treat their job as - some fun, some drinks, some food, maybe some sex - and some money!

Simon

[Thaipwriter]

The barfine plays no part in any transaction that occurs between punter and girl/lady/boy.

It is merely to compensate the employer for loss of his salaried employees during working hours.

Oh come on!!!! If you are going to make a point - make it sensible - so a girl is taken out of a bar with 2 hours till closing time - is the bar fine just to componsate for this employee not being there? How much is the bar fine - about 60 baht!! I think not!!!!

Can you repeat that in English please?

[JimsKnight]

for anyone remotely interested in the subject i can recommend two books to read 'my name is lon, do you like me? and 'welcome to the bangkok slaughterhouse'. both are in asia books and both show how these girls end up selling their bodies for western and thai pimps to profit from.

for anyone with a daughter they are hard reading.

Put it this way, there are other thai forums where you cannot express your views as freely as this for the reason of the 'Rescued bar girl by Captain Fantastic' at least on this one more libreral attidudes prevail!

I totally agree that there is a very dark underbelly to certain bars. But nontheless the majority of girls come to the bars of their own free will and the 10,000 baht buy-out deal can be pure con artistry by the owners.

In Hua Hin it is said a massive bus from Issan comes from to the town for the start of high season. Crammed with the girls, I don't know if some or any are sold into 'bondage' but a few expats have expained that its the girls themselves who have taken out loans and are paying them back ' by the bar girl way!'

One example of this con artistry is where the girl is bought out of the bar, she returns there after a few weeks and the same guy is faced with the same buy-out scheme all over again!

If you have a big beef on the 'bonded labour' then why not get firm evidence, confront the place if they admit to it or just give you a load of ballsht and attitude then start to name and shame these places!

Its like a poster said a few days ago, if we falang refuse to patron bars that conduct this practise both bonded labour and rip-off practises then you starve the bar into submission.

www.fairpricethailand.org operates a name and shame policy on rip-off dual pricing establishments.

Perhaps a name and shame policy on thaivisa.com could be considered in view of these coments...

[mittheimp]

The barfine plays no part in any transaction that occurs between punter and girl/lady/boy.

It is merely to compensate the employer for loss of his salaried employees during working hours.

Oh come on!!!! If you are going to make a point - make it sensible - so a girl is taken out of a bar with 2 hours till closing time - is the bar fine just to componsate for this employee not being there? How much is the bar fine - about 60 baht!! I think not!!!!

Can you repeat that in English please?

OK. The bar fine is clearly a larger amount than simply compensating for the worker not being able to work! Making your previous long winded contribution inaccurate!

[simon43]

but a few expats have expained that its the girls themselves who have taken out loans and are paying them back ' by the bar girl way!'

I think this is not just a trait with the bars. About half of the builders on our hotel building site are working simply to pay off debts incurred previously - mostly through gambling!

Simon