The Investigation Into Thailand’s Backpacker Slayings Is Officially a Farce

[jdinasia]

This has been a farce since day one.

You're absolutely right, the number of ill-informed, insensitive, speculative posts that have appeared, and continue to appear, here is a farce, I'm glad someone else recognises that.

You are totally right.?

There have been about 2000 posts on the subjects over the different threads on here ( just a guess I didn't count them) which is almost as many different stories the BIB have told us so far.

Far more theories bandied about by posters on here than by the police.

They should have kept quiet until they were ready to make an arrest.

[jdinasia]

In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that "circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence" (Holland v. United States, 348 U.S. 121, 75 S. Ct. 127, 99 L. Ed. 150 [1954]). Thus, there is little distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence with regards to admissibility of evidence in trials. However, the quality and quantity of circumstantial evidence may be subject to more challenge of interpretation than direct evidence.

Even the use of DNA analysis might be considered circumstantial evidence as it only indicates a probable attacker iwth mongoloid [asian] features as the island hundreds people fitting that characteristic. The effective use of circumstantial evidence requires a more cummulation of evidence (motive, finger prints, victim's blood on accused's clothing, incriminating or untruthful statements, no alibi, etc.) than direct evidence ("I saw the hoe in the accused's hands hitting the victim").

So once the accussed recanter their confessions, the police report would appear weak with interpretation of possibly faulty circusmtantial evidence and opens the investigation to claims of bias if police can't "repair" their investigation.

And dragging the suspects to reenact the crime in front of the media would mean that a case like like this would have been thrown out by the first district judge that it was presented to.

2 huge fallacies here.

1. That a recanted confession matters. It doesn't.

2. That Thailand's use of reenactments is an issue. It isn't. No jury to taint.

[chooka]

It's not a farce, It's a disgrace.

It's a total cluster <deleted>. If this case was going before a jury it would be a not ģo illy verdict as the prosecution has to prove beyond all reasonable doubt and the case is riddled with doubt.

Edited October 12, 2014 by metisdead
Circumventing the profanity filter.

[jdinasia]

In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that "circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence" (Holland v. United States, 348 U.S. 121, 75 S. Ct. 127, 99 L. Ed. 150 [1954]). Thus, there is little distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence with regards to admissibility of evidence in trials. However, the quality and quantity of circumstantial evidence may be subject to more challenge of interpretation than direct evidence.

Even the use of DNA analysis might be considered circumstantial evidence as it only indicates a probable attacker iwth mongoloid [asian] features as the island hundreds people fitting that characteristic. The effective use of circumstantial evidence requires a more cummulation of evidence (motive, finger prints, victim's blood on accused's clothing, incriminating or untruthful statements, no alibi, etc.) than direct evidence ("I saw the hoe in the accused's hands hitting the victim").

So once the accussed recanter their confessions, the police report would appear weak with interpretation of possibly faulty circusmtantial evidence and opens the investigation to claims of bias if police can't "repair" their investigation.

Rick

This is not the US.

DNA is specific if you have a comparison sample.

[ChrisY1]

In all countries suspect of horrible murder told they have been tortured...... or forced to make confession

Let justice do their job.....

In this case DNA test show that the two suspects were in the murder place.......

Tell DNA test was bias it is very difficult because Thailand has the same standard for DNA test like other countries......

This test consist to extract DNA from body fluid, after sequence it for have the DNA fingerprinting. After coroner compare the different DNA

This test is the same in USA EUROPE and other country.......

Are you a thai policeman?

[jdinasia]

It's not a farce, It's a disgrace.

It's a total cluster f@#k. If this case was going before a jury it would be a not ģo illy verdict as the prosecution has to prove beyond all reasonable doubt and the case is riddled with doubt.

Strange...

I have yet to see the actual case. Have you?

[kcirtapyelrah]

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

[ChrisY1]

Most of us have known for a long while that we are second when it comes to justice in Thailand, but for some reason this case really hits it home to me. Considering how high profile this case is, to me it sends a message of open season on westerners. Relatively speaking.

I remember in the early days of me living in Thailand my wife's uncle saying I am protected more than Thai's because of the backlash it would create. Doesn't seem that way anymore......

Shame really because I like Thailand.

Quite right.....These types of cases where the international governments and media turn things upside down for the RTP and judiciary .....doesn't do the expats cause any good at all for those of us living here.

It's foreign interference...and nobody here likes that!

[petercool]

A post removed for being slur against Thais generally

[TTom911]

Most of us have known for a long while that we are second when it comes to justice in Thailand, but for some reason this case really hits it home to me. Considering how high profile this case is, to me it sends a message of open season on westerners. Relatively speaking.

I remember in the early days of me living in Thailand my wife's uncle saying I am protected more than Thai's because of the backlash it would create. Doesn't seem that way anymore......

Shame really because I like Thailand.

Quite right.....These types of cases where the international governments and media turn things upside down for the RTP and judiciary .....doesn't do the expats cause any good at all for those of us living here.

It's foreign interference...and nobody here likes that!

It's up to the Thai to reform themselves and their country - and I can't see at all that they want it (letting alone having a plan how to actually do it). Koh Tao will not change anything, UNLESS the tourists walk away in drones... Only MONEY TALKS... Conscience...? "What are you talking about...?"

[loongdavid]

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

[jdinasia]

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

I assume you are taking about the amateur detectives online.

[jdinasia]

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Because he has an alibi?

[TTom911]

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Everything becomes VERY easy to understand if one just realises that the entire process is NOT about finding the culprit... Once this is understood, then "evidence", "due process", 'professionalism", "transparency" is nothing but a hinderance one can so easily do without.... "Photoshop" is the name of the game....

P.S.: for those who dont know "Photoshop" - it's a sophisticated paint/graphics computer program with which you can manipulate graphics or "paint" anything from scratch at hearts content... look's like "the real thing" if you are a RTP PRO..."AMAZING"...

Edited October 12, 2014 by TTom911

[ggt]

The Investigation Into Thailand’s Backpacker Slayings Is Officially a Farce

I personally believe this to be true of most of the murder investigations in Thailand...suicide is the most common result of these "so called" investigations...

Sad for the families involved...somewhat comical from an impersonal standpoint...

[phiphilastick]

https://www.facebook.com/justiceforHannahandDavid

Please like ans share..

[JLCrab]

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

I assume you are taking about the amateur detectives online.

No -- maybe the online forensic psychiatrists.

[TTom911]

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

sleep sound... nice dreams...

[wilcopops]

Kingsley Abbott, Bangkok-based adviser for the International Commission of Jurists...adds, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, as the two men must be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Or as we say back home in Colorado: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Can someone tell me if Thailand Criminal code does, in fact, have a tradition of presuming one's innocence until proven guilty?

Thank you

Burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove the crime 'beyond a reasonable doubt'

Judge arbiter of facts. They decide if burden of proof has been satisfied.

Is this in fact true in Thailand?

[love1012]

But now it's official.

No it's not, in this case it's only the personal opinion of the Time contributor, Charlie Campbell, and he is officially no-one.

so are you - and at least hes not a Thai Policeman!! I suppose you still think they've got the right people!! - you're a joke!!

[Briandajew]

This has been a farce since day one.

I know where you are coming from but if only that was the case - A "farce" is a comical display of buffoonery - this is a tragic disgusting disgrace full of lies, corruption. It is basically a crime on top of a terrible crime. It is an insult to the lives of the two Brits murdered here. These idiots think that everyone is going to just sit back and swallow their garbage. Thankfully for once it actually looks like enough people (THAI/ BURMESE/and others) have had the balls to stand up and say enough is enough. I truly hope for the parents and families of these two poor kids that the wrath and disgust of the international community and the locals will get the justice deserved.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Briandajew

[sambum]

I very much doubt we will ever know what has really happened. The "best" we can probably hope for is that the Myanmar "suspects" survive, then probably will have to be released at some stage because of insufficient evidence, and any "independent" review of "evidence" will be inconclusive because all the key evidence is either compromised, missing or was never taken. "They" will absolutely never admit to any wrong doing, they were determined from the start to do whatever it takes to protect the culprits. And, given what is for them at stake now, they will not change their stance. The Myanmar guys were probably (so far) extremely lucky because it took "them" a bit too long to think how to explain TWO suicides... Had it been just one suspect he would have been dead already... having two suicides to explain took them just a bit too long to come up with a plan... and by then the "danger of suicide" was already out in the media and made it is even harder for "them" (still not impossible...) to get rid of the inconvenience... Otherwise that would have been the solution: DNA "proof", confession, public parade, suicide... THE PERFECT "solution"... surely successfully rehearsed proven "successful "a few times"

Let's better not call this a "botched investigation"... what happens here is of a VERY different "class"...

Sorry, have to go and throw up now....

I fully agree, especially to the 2nd last sentence!

Btw... I'm throwing up on a daily basis since the double murder was discovered... And there we have another one - "I have to Koh Tao!" (throw up)... would be all funny if it weren't that sad. Sickening also to read the announcement "Tourists flocking back to Koh Tao"... as it shows how quickly people forget

The worst is (if it is even possible to call anything "worse") that absolutely NOTHING will change in this place as a consequence. They will continue to conduct themselves up and down the country in no different way. Same things will happen over and over again (just "normally" much less public). Which of course also means that all good-willing (or naive, you decide how you want to call it) hopes that "the guys in the new shits" would really change anything is over. They are all sitting in the same boat, just on different seats... and different suit colours... otherwise "same-same"... You see this by how even now the RTP is still "praised" by exactly these people ...

This case could be a starter to literally "kick"start change as this case is so openly messed up AND it has some of the required international attention to counter the internal habits to cover things up. But if there is no real further "visible/audible/readable expression of desire for change" here on the ground, which I doubt will happen (and which is basically forbidden by law now.........) then also the international media support will quickly fizzle out when it's not sensational enough anymore (and here it will subside even faster). And then we are back to the same old "Amazing Thailand".... as if nothing ever happened... Anyone wants to risk a bet against me...?

Good post - especially the bit about "the guys in the new shits"!

[sambum]

It's not a farce, It's a disgrace.

It's a total cluster <deleted>. If this case was going before a jury it would be a not ģo illy verdict as the prosecution has to prove beyond all reasonable doubt and the case is riddled with doubt.

You do like repeating yourself - repeating yourself - don't you? - don't you?

[JacknDanny]

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Because he has an alibi?

You sure about that?

Suggest you do a bit of searching.

Alibi is not as solid as it first appeared. In fact from what I have read, its totally fabricated nonsense.

[JOC]

In all countries suspect of horrible murder told they have been tortured...... or forced to make confession

Let justice do their job.....

In this case DNA test show that the two suspects were in the murder place.......

Tell DNA test was bias it is very difficult because Thailand has the same standard for DNA test like other countries......

This test consist to extract DNA from body fluid, after sequence it for have the DNA fingerprinting. After coroner compare the different DNA

This test is the same in USA EUROPE and other country.......

Are you a thai policeman?

No he is the leading Thai forensic expert!!

[jdinasia]

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Because he has an alibi?

You sure about that?

Suggest you do a bit of searching.

Alibi is not as solid as it first appeared. In fact from what I have read, its totally fabricated nonsense.

Read where?

[JacknDanny]

Kingsley Abbott, Bangkok-based adviser for the International Commission of Jurists...adds, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, as the two men must be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Or as we say back home in Colorado: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Can someone tell me if Thailand Criminal code does, in fact, have a tradition of presuming one's innocence until proven guilty?

Thank you

Burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove the crime 'beyond a reasonable doubt'

Judge arbiter of facts. They decide if burden of proof has been satisfied.

Is this in fact true in Thailand?

Theoretically yes.

In practise, I would not like to comment.

[JacknDanny]

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Because he has an alibi?

You sure about that?

Suggest you do a bit of searching.

Alibi is not as solid as it first appeared. In fact from what I have read, its totally fabricated nonsense.

Read where?

jd, you are not an idiot. Takes a few minutes of searching.

[jdinasia]

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Because he has an alibi?

You sure about that?

Suggest you do a bit of searching.

Alibi is not as solid as it first appeared. In fact from what I have read, its totally fabricated nonsense.

Read where?

jd, you are not an idiot. Takes a few minutes of searching.

I agree.. I am not an idiot.

The only source of those claims I have seen are from online speculation / rumors.

[stephen terry]

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

It won't. You really believe that truth and justice will prevail, sorry it doesn't happen here.