Thai reforms: Pushing for third-gender equality

[seajae]

There are only two sex in the world, male and female. Yes you have your bisexuality and homosexual people but they are not a sex. You can't just wave a wand and say poof now we have a 3rd sex or a 4th or 5th sex. Nature is the only one who can do that.

Poof being the magic word too

[Jingthing]

There are only two sexes, Male and Female. Yes there are males who want to be females and females who want to be males but they still remain male or female. Possibly they can be wrongly identified at birth but born male you remain male and born female you are still female and no alterations can change that. That's my opinion anyway.

I guess we won't be seeing you carrying this sign at the next gay parade, innit?

[Krataiboy]

I have always been impressed that so many ordinary Thais are completely accepting of gays, lesbians, trannies etc - far more, in fact, than the elite seem to be. I suppose this may be related to the reality that many hard-up Thai families rely on their youngsters getting jobs in the "tourist" industry to bring home the bacon - there are endless career opportunities for "third gender" folk who don't have the bits of paper needed to get a decent job here.

Anything which can be done by the relative handful of women on the NCPO to broaden the church and stop people judging others by their sexual gender or preferences would be welcome.

If anybody is discriminated against in Thailand it is women of all sexual persuasions. The women's liberation movement which swept the US and Europe in the Sixties and Seventies and continues today seems to have passed the Land of Smiles by. Maybe that is why so many Western dinosaurs who relished the good old days when men were men and women were grateful for it have put down their withered roots here.

[timewilltell]

Equality is expressly written to the constitution.

3rd gender doesn't need special protectiom

Except there is no constitution and the equality clauses in it were not followed by many laws. For instance a Thai Man can have a foreign wife who can get permanent residence and citizenship very easily and cheaply. For a Thai female married to a Foreign man the process is much more tedious, expensive and with far more requirements. Another example - Thai females married to foreigners have to sign documents on buying a house or land that the money is hers - there are no such requirements on Thai males married to foreign females.

I agree with you though that an all encompassing 'no discrimination of any sort on anyone' would avoid the need to segregate out classes of people - which is mildly discriminatory in itself.

When they are through with that they can make some stringent anti-corruption clauses as well with laws and procedures to follow it up. And then a clause that any child in the Kingdom regardless of whether Thai, foreign or stateless should be entitled to free education of a reasonable standard.

None of which refers to the third gender. The so called third gender needs no more special treatment.

If its unconstitutional, some one should have brought a case to change the law. And yes, Thailand is discriminatory, but the rules are/were on the books already to stop it

I think you misunderstood me @Thai at Heart. I was agreeing with you for the most part. My point was that the constitution that did exist has been suspended by the current administration so at the moment there is no constitution pending a new one being drawn up. I agree the anti- discriminatory rules were there in the last constitution and do not really need expansion to deal with '3rd genders'.

There is an issue with changing the law to deal with constitutional holes or errors though since you cannot pass laws that change the constitution, the laws have to follow the constitution. Any errors in the constitution have to be tackled by amending the constitution itself, at least I think that is the case. I think there is some means of interpretation of the wording of the constitution which can be addressed by the Constitutional Court but that is about it.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Edited October 20, 2014 by timewilltell

[Jingthing]

I don't know about the need for specific constitutional protections but there are specific issues for transgender people in any country, and a big one is to be able to legally change the gender on your I.D. cards and passport. Not possible in Thailand.

Not to be too cynical about it, but if you're going to do a new constitution and you want to jazz up your human rights reputation in the world, including civil rights for sexual minorities is an easy thing to do.

Thailand has an international PR problem right now as far as their governmental structure and elections (what elections?). Doing things like this could serve to soften that image.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[Halion]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

[konying]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

To me, a male who goes through the full cut, still remains a male just looks and feels like a female.

It's still a male brain and male way of thinking and male testosterone(there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy)

Yes, he now could be addressed as a female, but that would be deceitful to a potential partner if the he, now she does not tell the truth

[Jingthing]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

The third gender thing seems to be a Thai schtick and probably some other non-western cultures. Interesting cultural difference there. Generally in the west as far as gender you're male, female, transgender (transitioning or arrived to the opposite sex), and also this more recent thing called Queer which might not be what you think in the old slur word sense so yes it's not a slur word if you use it in the modern context (hard to define ... maybe something like "I fit in NO category"), but it's certainly also not a set "third" gender category. Yes gender and sexual orientation are separate things for the most part but maybe this Queer thing complicates that too, not really sure. Help!

Not saying it ain't complicated. Geez.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

There's something I don't get about "3rd gender." Don't most transgender people believe that they are the opposite gender of the body they are trapped in? For example, a man who feels he is really a woman, born into the wrong body. I don't think such people believe they are a 3rd gender, they believe they are one of the two genders.

I'm not questioning the fluidity of gender, or saying that you gotta be a boy or a girl, but that most transgendered folks don't want to be a 3rd gender, they want to be accepted as male or female.

Based on that the article makes little sense as it firstly argues that transgenders need more rights then goes on to say that women have less rights than men.

Apart from a fairly basic conformation of sexual discrimination rules i am not sure how much further they can go with legislation since the issue is more of a societal recognition issue than a legal one. The very act of trying to write laws that specifically cover transgenders is both counterproductive to an equality argument not to mention extremely difficult as they would struggle to get over the first hurdle, as an earlier poster pointed out, by having to legal define what transgender is in the first place.

"discrimination based on gender and gender identity is a crime"

Strangely that was neither difficult nor did it require a definition.

[jdinasia]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

To me, a male who goes through the full cut, still remains a male just looks and feels like a female.

It's still a male brain and male way of thinking and male testosterone(there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy)

Yes, he now could be addressed as a female, but that would be deceitful to a potential partner if the he, now she does not tell the truth

I'm guessing you didn't major in biology nor endocrinology.

Since you are using stereotypes.. If you do not "get violent too easy" can we assume it is a lack of testosterone?

Edited October 20, 2014 by jdinasia

[Scully]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

The third gender thing seems to be a Thai schtick and probably some other non-western cultures. Interesting cultural difference there. Generally in the west as far as gender you're male, female, transgender (transitioning or arrived to the opposite sex), and also this more recent thing called Queer which might not be what you think in the old slur word sense so yes it's not a slur word if you use it in the modern context (hard to define ... maybe something like "I fit in NO category"), but it's certainly also not a set "third" gender category. Yes gender and sexual orientation are separate things for the most part but maybe this Queer thing complicates that too, not really sure. Help!

Not saying it ain't complicated. Geez.

India recognised third-gender people recently in a ruling by their supreme court, human rights and all that.

[Jingthing]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

The third gender thing seems to be a Thai schtick and probably some other non-western cultures. Interesting cultural difference there. Generally in the west as far as gender you're male, female, transgender (transitioning or arrived to the opposite sex), and also this more recent thing called Queer which might not be what you think in the old slur word sense so yes it's not a slur word if you use it in the modern context (hard to define ... maybe something like "I fit in NO category"), but it's certainly also not a set "third" gender category. Yes gender and sexual orientation are separate things for the most part but maybe this Queer thing complicates that too, not really sure. Help!

Not saying it ain't complicated. Geez.

India recognised third-gender people recently in a ruling by their supreme court, human rights and all that.

Really? In any case, I don't think making "third gender" an official thing is a happening thing in the west. GLBT, etc. civil rights, yes, of course, but third gender, I think not.

Anyway, no worries, we're not in Kansas anymore ...

Edited October 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Equality is expressly written to the constitution.

3rd gender doesn't need special protectiom

Except there is no constitution and the equality clauses in it were not followed by many laws. For instance a Thai Man can have a foreign wife who can get permanent residence and citizenship very easily and cheaply. For a Thai female married to a Foreign man the process is much more tedious, expensive and with far more requirements. Another example - Thai females married to foreigners have to sign documents on buying a house or land that the money is hers - there are no such requirements on Thai males married to foreign females.

I agree with you though that an all encompassing 'no discrimination of any sort on anyone' would avoid the need to segregate out classes of people - which is mildly discriminatory in itself.

When they are through with that they can make some stringent anti-corruption clauses as well with laws and procedures to follow it up. And then a clause that any child in the Kingdom regardless of whether Thai, foreign or stateless should be entitled to free education of a reasonable standard.

None of which refers to the third gender. The so called third gender needs no more special treatment.

If its unconstitutional, some one should have brought a case to change the law. And yes, Thailand is discriminatory, but the rules are/were on the books already to stop it

I think you misunderstood me @Thai at Heart. I was agreeing with you for the most part. My point was that the constitution that did exist has been suspended by the current administration so at the moment there is no constitution pending a new one being drawn up. I agree the anti- discriminatory rules were there in the last constitution and do not really need expansion to deal with '3rd genders'.

There is an issue with changing the law to deal with constitutional holes or errors though since you cannot pass laws that change the constitution, the laws have to follow the constitution. Any errors in the constitution have to be tackled by amending the constitution itself, at least I think that is the case. I think there is some means of interpretation of the wording of the constitution which can be addressed by the Constitutional Court but that is about it.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What anti discrimination laws were in the old constitution?

[papa al]

There are only two sexes, Male and Female. Yes there are males who want to be females and females who want to be males but they still remain male or female. Possibly they can be wrongly identified at birth but born male you remain male and born female you are still female and no alterations can change that. That's my opinion anyway.

Would a hermaphrodite be a male or a female then?

(In your opinion)

Edited October 20, 2014 by papa al

[sustento]

Welcome to all the signed-up members of Knuckle Draggers United!!!

[konying]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

To me, a male who goes through the full cut, still remains a male just looks and feels like a female.

It's still a male brain and male way of thinking and male testosterone(there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy)

Yes, he now could be addressed as a female, but that would be deceitful to a potential partner if the he, now she does not tell the truth

I'm guessing you didn't major in biology nor endocrinology.

Since you are using stereotypes.. If you do not "get violent too easy" can we assume it is a lack of testosterone?

You are right, I did not. It is not a stereotype but a simple observation.

You are free to assume whatever you desire

[papa al]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

To me, a male who goes through the full cut, still remains a male just looks and feels like a female.

It's still a male brain and male way of thinking and male testosterone(there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy)

Yes, he now could be addressed as a female, but that would be deceitful to a potential partner if the he, now she does not tell the truth

I'm guessing you didn't major in biology nor endocrinology.

Since you are using stereotypes.. If you do not "get violent too easy" can we assume it is a lack of testosterone?

You are right, I did not. It is not a stereotype but a simple observation.

You are free to assume whatever you desire

I've seen violence from farang men & women.

I've seen numerous Thai ladies turn violent, and observed a few Thai men become violent.

I've seem many ladyboys, but personally have never seen one get violent.

When you state

" (there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy (sic))"

that is clearly promulgating a stereotype, not reporting an observation.

[konying]

I've seen violence from farang men & women.

I've seen numerous Thai ladies turn violent, and observed a few Thai men become violent.

I've seem many ladyboys, but personally have never seen one get violent.

When you state

" (there is a reason why ladyboys get violent too easy (sic))"

that is clearly promulgating a stereotype, not reporting an observation.

Try getting out more and reading news. Nirin condo ghetto is not the only place on earth Edited October 21, 2014 by konying

[h90]

I would rather cut out any mention of gender from the constitution......Quotes are exactly discrimination. You can't fix discrimination of some women by discrimination of some other not related men.

[Orac]

There's something I don't get about "3rd gender." Don't most transgender people believe that they are the opposite gender of the body they are trapped in? For example, a man who feels he is really a woman, born into the wrong body. I don't think such people believe they are a 3rd gender, they believe they are one of the two genders.

I'm not questioning the fluidity of gender, or saying that you gotta be a boy or a girl, but that most transgendered folks don't want to be a 3rd gender, they want to be accepted as male or female.

Based on that the article makes little sense as it firstly argues that transgenders need more rights then goes on to say that women have less rights than men.

Apart from a fairly basic conformation of sexual discrimination rules i am not sure how much further they can go with legislation since the issue is more of a societal recognition issue than a legal one. The very act of trying to write laws that specifically cover transgenders is both counterproductive to an equality argument not to mention extremely difficult as they would struggle to get over the first hurdle, as an earlier poster pointed out, by having to legal define what transgender is in the first place.

"discrimination based on gender and gender identity is a crime"

Strangely that was neither difficult nor did it require a definition.

Though on the face of it, it could be that simple it opens up other complications by effectively making gender an optional choice rather than a biological condition. The obvious one being should someone be allowed to marry someone based on their gender identity which effectively legalises same sex marriage - not something I am against but something that must be taken into consideration.

[jdinasia]

There's something I don't get about "3rd gender." Don't most transgender people believe that they are the opposite gender of the body they are trapped in? For example, a man who feels he is really a woman, born into the wrong body. I don't think such people believe they are a 3rd gender, they believe they are one of the two genders.

I'm not questioning the fluidity of gender, or saying that you gotta be a boy or a girl, but that most transgendered folks don't want to be a 3rd gender, they want to be accepted as male or female.

Based on that the article makes little sense as it firstly argues that transgenders need more rights then goes on to say that women have less rights than men.

Apart from a fairly basic conformation of sexual discrimination rules i am not sure how much further they can go with legislation since the issue is more of a societal recognition issue than a legal one. The very act of trying to write laws that specifically cover transgenders is both counterproductive to an equality argument not to mention extremely difficult as they would struggle to get over the first hurdle, as an earlier poster pointed out, by having to legal define what transgender is in the first place.

"discrimination based on gender and gender identity is a crime"

Strangely that was neither difficult nor did it require a definition.

Though on the face of it, it could be that simple it opens up other complications by effectively making gender an optional choice rather than a biological condition. The obvious one being should someone be allowed to marry someone based on their gender identity which effectively legalises same sex marriage - not something I am against but something that must be taken into consideration.

Gender identity is different than sexual orientation. That being said what is the issue of same - sex marriage in a Buddhist culture?

[hiller]

Equality is expressly written to the constitution.

3rd gender doesn't need special protectiom

You are correct. It is in the constitution however there are no equality provisions in the constitution for Thai women.

[jdinasia]

I would rather cut out any mention of gender from the constitution......Quotes are exactly discrimination. You can't fix discrimination of some women by discrimination of some other not related men.

I assume you mean "quotas".

No quota system has been proposed in society as a whole. A recommendation of a target number of legislators has.

No individual loses in that system.

[hiller]

There are only Two Genders, Male or Female. Start with that premise before moving on to science fiction. A male who goes through the full transformation should be entitled to be classed as female but there is no need for a Third Gender . Keep it simple stupid. KISS

The third gender thing seems to be a Thai schtick and probably some other non-western cultures. Interesting cultural difference there. Generally in the west as far as gender you're male, female, transgender (transitioning or arrived to the opposite sex), and also this more recent thing called Queer which might not be what you think in the old slur word sense so yes it's not a slur word if you use it in the modern context (hard to define ... maybe something like "I fit in NO category"), but it's certainly also not a set "third" gender category. Yes gender and sexual orientation are separate things for the most part but maybe this Queer thing complicates that too, not really sure. Help!

Not saying it ain't complicated. Geez.

India recognised third-gender people recently in a ruling by their supreme court, human rights and all that.

Really? In any case, I don't think making "third gender" an official thing is a happening thing in the west. GLBT, etc. civil rights, yes, of course, but third gender, I think not.

Anyway, no worries, we're not in Kansas anymore ...

Even Iran his recognized the third gender. The only change there is that they have a back up of people waiting to be executed.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Scott
Reply moved out of the quote

[Orac]

There's something I don't get about "3rd gender." Don't most transgender people believe that they are the opposite gender of the body they are trapped in? For example, a man who feels he is really a woman, born into the wrong body. I don't think such people believe they are a 3rd gender, they believe they are one of the two genders.

I'm not questioning the fluidity of gender, or saying that you gotta be a boy or a girl, but that most transgendered folks don't want to be a 3rd gender, they want to be accepted as male or female.

Based on that the article makes little sense as it firstly argues that transgenders need more rights then goes on to say that women have less rights than men.

Apart from a fairly basic conformation of sexual discrimination rules i am not sure how much further they can go with legislation since the issue is more of a societal recognition issue than a legal one. The very act of trying to write laws that specifically cover transgenders is both counterproductive to an equality argument not to mention extremely difficult as they would struggle to get over the first hurdle, as an earlier poster pointed out, by having to legal define what transgender is in the first place.

"discrimination based on gender and gender identity is a crime"

Strangely that was neither difficult nor did it require a definition.

Though on the face of it, it could be that simple it opens up other complications by effectively making gender an optional choice rather than a biological condition. The obvious one being should someone be allowed to marry someone based on their gender identity which effectively legalises same sex marriage - not something I am against but something that must be taken into consideration.

Gender identity is different than sexual orientation. That being said what is the issue of same - sex marriage in a Buddhist culture?

As i said, personally i have no issue with same sex marriage. The effect such legislation might have in relation to Buddhist culture though is another interesting area given sex discrimination there is basically enshrined. I would be interested to know if the argument has come up before, as i am sure it must have done, regarding the rights of females/transgenders to be ordained as monks.

[jdinasia]

The line of ordained nuns in Thailand died out a long time ago. It is unlikely to ever be reintroduced in the Thai sangha. However, there are 2 groups in Thailand that ordain Thai women. They are a group from Sri Lanka and Santi Asoke.

Having spoken at length to MaeChi most do not seem interested in ordination.

[Orac]

Current legislation going through gives exclusions for education, religion and 'public interest' apparently.

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4430?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+prachataienglish+%28Prachatai+in+English%29