Dutch / Thai Baby & Confused.

[verzenden]

I've read all topics and information is scattered all around. I need some personal advice because I can't find the answers. My situation is as follows:

I'm Dutch and my GF is Thai. She's pregnant and will deliver end of November. I was a student in BKK last year but currently busy setting up a business in Holland that requires me to stay in Holland. I'll return to BKK November 5 to be around when the baby comes. I'll probably will be on a tourist visa.

For the future of the baby we decided that it is best to raise and educate the child in Holland. So I would like to return to Holland with my GF and baby. Off course the big question is how to accomplish this.

We planned to get married but i want to wait until the baby is there so she does not have to marry with a big belly. Or is it better to marry before the baby is there?

Off course we want the child to have dual citizenship. I've overheard a conversation at the Dutch embassy last year and they said if the man recognizes the child it will automatically be granted Dutch citizenship, so for the child it does not require me to be married wth my GF.

I think my biggest problem is getting my GF here. What are my options if not married? And what are the options if we do get married and does it matter if we marry before or after the baby is born?

Any help is very much appreciated. Thx for those who cleared up the 'name giving' in another thread, we will go for 2 english names and my surname.

It's me,

Kevin

[erg]

Kevin.

My wife is 6 monts now.

To recognice the baby, you need from yourself: a paper saying you are not married at the moment from your local city hall in holland, and a paper saying were your from, and were you have residence, also you need to hand over a copy of your pasport.

Your wife needs a paper from her local cityhal saying she is not married, she needs a copy of her Tabiaan baan, she needs a copy off her id card, all these papers have to be legelised by the Ministry of Foreign affairs in Bangkok, wereafter you have to show them at the duch embassy in bangkok, you have to go there together with your wife, they check your papers and after that they make an apointment were you have to show up together again, to sign a paper saying thath you excapt the un born child.

With this paper the child can apply for a duch pasport after birth immidiatly. It will automatic have Thai citicin ship cause it is born in thailand.

To get your GF to Holland is an even more complicated process.

It is a time consuming proces.

If you wait untill after birth you have to wait for dual citicen ship until 18 years, also then you have to prove that you took care of the child for three years. (not advisible)

PM me for more info, as i am doing the same thing as we speak.

Ps zo,n verklaring heet registratie ongeboren vrucht, je vrouw mag op het moment van herkenning niet getrouwd zijn.

geluk erg

[erg]

Sorry when you are married to the mother the child will have duch nationality automaticly.

[Khun Jean]

It will automatic have Thai citicin ship cause it is born in thailand.

Sorry when you are married to the mother the child will have duch nationality automaticly

If you wait untill after birth you have to wait for dual citicen ship until 18 years, also then you have to prove that you took care of the child for three years. (not advisible)

Sorry but these statements are incorrect.

The baby will get Thai citizenship because the mother is Thai, not because of the place of birth.

The child can have Dutch nationality because the father is Dutch. Being married is not important.

Dual nationality is somewhat "difficult" from the Dutch side, but not when the child is young. The child will have to make a decision later. The Thai side has no problems with it.

Being married before the baby is born will speed things up, and make it more "easy" for Thai officials and the Embassy.

The MVV that you need for your wife will be a little smoother when you are married.

I have 2 children. One born in Bangkok St. Louis hospital and one born in Haarlem, The Netherlands. Both have dual citizenship without any trouble.

Registering more than one first name in Thailand can be problematic when they are longer than the Thai computer systems allow, which is 25 characters.

When registering the name do a simple test. Translate the name to Thai and from Thai back to Dutch/English. Get the best mix of sounds and translation.

Good luck and best wishes for a smooth delivery.

[whosyourdaddy]

Make sure your name is on the thai birth certificate that you get from the hospital. If you dont, it will be an uphill battle.

[chanchao]

Important : Khun Jean was not correct (or completely clear), when he states:

> The child can have Dutch nationality because the father is Dutch.

> Being married is not important.

Since April of 2004, (or was it 2005) the rules are the following:

* The child will receive Dutch nationality after birth when the mother is Dutch, never mind marital status or the nationality of the father. Or:

* The child will receive Dutch nationality after birth when the father is Dutch and married to the mother. Or:

* The child will receive Dutch nationality after birth when the father is Dutch, NOT married to anyone, AND an official recognition document has been signed at the embassy or city hall holland BEFORE the baby is born. (Any time before birth; 8 months or 8 days before birth doesn't matter) Or:

* The child will receive Dutch nationality when the father is Dutch, NOT married to anyone, AND the father can demonstrate to have raised the child for at least 3 years.

In short, you want to avoid the last option, so you URGENTLY have to get that recognition thingy done at the embassy, or in Holland together with your girlfriend. I would NOT wait until November because if there's any burocratric hurdles that eat up time then you don't want the baby to be born before the paperwork is done.

GO EMAIL YOUR EMBASSY right now.

THEN Google for "Verklaring van Erkenning ongeboren vrucht" for additional background info.

Secondly, I have an example document here that your girlfriend needs to get from her district office that states she's not married. The embassy also have an example but they didn't send it to me (they could have, they do email other stuff as PDF) so when going to the embassy the first time the document wasn't quite in order, requiring going all the way back to Chiang Mai do redo the work at the district office. PM me for the example. (Also have an example translation, and example translations of the birth certificate). Initially I thought this was just a standard document but it's not.. Your gf's district may have never seen or heard of this document and not know how to phrase it, or be reluctant to issue anything when not sure if they're doing it the proper way. Having an example GREATLY helps things at the district office, and avoids incorrect documents or not having enough witnesses listed, etc.

I went through this exactly 1 year ago.. Now having a cute little baby around including Dutch passport, wooden shoes, the works. Actually applying for the passport took like 10 minutes and no need to wait in line.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited August 28, 2006 by chanchao

[chanchao]

Even more hilariously, the embassy didn't have a form or even an example declaration on officially recognizing paternity by the expecting father and the mother...

They'd be a funny lot if they weren't so sad. So I just made my own declaration which apparenlty was adequate. let me know if you want that as well. (And perhaps also a translation example of the birth certificate) A lot of translators aren't worth (**$&*. Best to check things very carefully.

And indeed make super sure that all names are spelled correctly (consistent with passport / ID card / House registration document). And that the English language (or Dutch language) names for everyone are spelled consistently on all documents.

Edited August 28, 2006 by chanchao

[Khun Jean]

Chanchao

Since April of 2004, (or was it 2005) the rules are the following:

Sigh, i specifically asked this information about 3 months ago for a friend. That will teach me to believe the Dutch embassy in Bangkok.

It is really embarrasing.

Thanx for correcting my information.

[cnxpat]

I went through this in 2003 (fairly easy) in Bangkok, but you need to have the Verklaring erkenning ongeboren vrucht (obviously before your baby is born!) and have it signed by you and your girlfriend at the Embassy in Bangkok. Things apparently have changed since then as Chanchao pointed out. Documents can be found online at minbuza.

After that, you can get a dutch passport for your "ongeboren vrucht" easy.

Officially dual citizenship is not allowed, but no need to mention the Dutch passport when applying for a Thai one right!?

Should you intend to try and take your girlfriend to NL in due time, I suggest you subscribe to www.buitenlandsepartner.nl and/or www.mixed-couples.nl. Most interesting to find out what a horrible country it has turned into! They have NO problems at all to split up a family for months and months. Be prepared to get into some serious frustrating procedures!

Getting married is not so important, yet it might make things easier at one point. To get married in Thailand the easy and quick way, you'll end up spending 20 THB. You will need some papers from the Embassy, (iets van "capacity of marriage") mainly to make sure you're not married already. Once married by Thai law, it will take a few months to register the marriage in Den Haag. So plan your trip well, you will need some time to sort the lot out.

PM me (in dutch if you like) if you need more info.

[Khun Jean]

cnxpat, ik ga je zoenen!! Figuurlijk dan!

This website cnxpat found (www.buitenlandsepartner.nl) is the greatest!!!

As i am a European citizen i have a lot of rights and those rights are also for my wife!, and it looks like i am going for the "Duitsland route"!

[cnxpat]

cnxpat, ik ga je zoenen!! Figuurlijk dan!

This website cnxpat found (www.buitenlandsepartner.nl) is the greatest!!!

As i am a European citizen i have a lot of rights and those rights are also for my wife!, and it looks like i am going for the "Duitsland route"!

Blij dat je er wat aan hebt, je hebt een hoop te lezen daar, check ook www.mixed-couples.nl

En wacht maar met zoenen :-): You're up for a long, frustrating (sometimes humiliating) and expensive procedure! Erm ... "rights", the imm. minister has already displayed total disrespect to Human Rights treaties, international agreements and more. Regardless of your Dutch or European citizenship, in general you are more welcome in any other EU country than you are in NL.

One reason I will never go there again ...

(I won't bore or scare you with some of my stories, some of them on both websites quitea while ago, and it just got worse this year)

Got luck!

[Khun Jean]

I agree. The Netherlands is now a fortress.

The idea is not to return to the Netherlands. You can circumvent the Dutch immigration laws when you live in another European country for a while. You will then will be considered a EU citizen and EU laws apply. This will aslo be the case for the spouse.

We just want to be able to stay a little longer than 3 months in Europe. That is a thing we wanted to do for a long time. Europe is big! It probably be Spain or Austria where we have family and accomodation available.

[cnxpat]

I agree. The Netherlands is now a fortress.

The idea is not to return to the Netherlands. You can circumvent the Dutch immigration laws when you live in another European country for a while. You will then will be considered a EU citizen and EU laws apply. This will aslo be the case for the spouse.

We just want to be able to stay a little longer than 3 months in Europe. That is a thing we wanted to do for a long time. Europe is big! It probably be Spain or Austria where we have family and accomodation available.

Note: the 90 days visa you will have to get for NL is a Schengen visa. Only valid for 90 days, and only valid in Schengen countries.

The way to circumvent Dutch immigration laws (apart from not going there :-) seems a lot easier than it is, unless you want to accept being away from your spouse for an extended period of time, but it is easier (as in "less difficult"). For that reason, Dutch immigration is already very busy fixing these loopholes, such as the so-calles Belgium-route.

(for instance, should you go to the Belgium Embassy in Bangkok now, you can be pretty sure they will contact the Dutch Embassy. This, I was told by staff from the Belgium embassy 1,5 years ago, I am not kidding! Give them a call, do it anonymous and see what their policy is now. Whether it is violating your privacy or not does not come into the equasion!)

To stay "a little longer" than 3 months (90 days), better make sure it is worth the effort, frustration and expenses!

I definitely don't want to frustrate you in advance, but better be prepared.

Keep us updated!

(topic as it is developing might be more suitable for the "> Visas and migration to other countries" board)

[Khun Jean]

If i understand correctly Belgium is not really "happy" for being used this way.

It is actually the Netherlands that make it far to difficult to have a normal family. For me it is the fact that my wife has to do a "inburgeringscursus" in Thailand.

No official school, and even less qualified. You can imagine what the quality would be.

And for us it is not the time for my wife to go to school, she takes care of the children which in our eyes is much more important.

When the kids go to school, my wife will start het school too. This option was available when we decided to live in Thailand for a while. But then everything got changed.

In a timespan of 3 years a lot has changed.

Not a good thing when you plan for the future. Now our plan is suddenly impossible without anything we can do about.

Belgium is used by a lot of Dutch people, they have the same language so it is easy to communicate. Actually every country in the EU can be used to obtain EU rights. Germany seems to apply the EU laws correctly. I think other countries will do the same.

It is just that people who go to there OWN country (well at least the Netherlands) are being prevented to have a normal family live by applying national laws instead of EU laws. In court they will loose. It is just a too costly procedure in time and money.

The world is changing and people are not living in one place like 50 years ago. The rules are not up to date.

With "a little longer" i actually wanted to say, i would like to have a choice on how long i stay. It can depend on many things. Simple things as a family birthday can be a reason to stay a while longer, or christmas or whatever other reason. Maybe you are somewhere that you like a lot and want to stay for a year. This is possible for a EU citizen. But not if you country is not accepting your spouse.

The same thing is with aknowledging that you are living together. Time together in the Netherlands counts, time in ALL countries count except the country of your spouse!! Like it is not normal to live close to your or your spouses family. To crazy for words. The dutch citizenship is not what we are after. A citizenship of any country in the EU is good for us.

[cnxpat]

If i understand correctly Belgium is not really "happy" for being used this way.

It is actually the Netherlands that make it far to difficult to have a normal family. For me it is the fact that my wife has to do a "inburgeringscursus" in Thailand.

No official school, and even less qualified. You can imagine what the quality would be.

And for us it is not the time for my wife to go to school, she takes care of the children which in our eyes is much more important.

When the kids go to school, my wife will start het school too. This option was available when we decided to live in Thailand for a while. But then everything got changed.

In a timespan of 3 years a lot has changed.

Not a good thing when you plan for the future. Now our plan is suddenly impossible without anything we can do about.

Belgium is used by a lot of Dutch people, they have the same language so it is easy to communicate. Actually every country in the EU can be used to obtain EU rights. Germany seems to apply the EU laws correctly. I think other countries will do the same.

It is just that people who go to there OWN country (well at least the Netherlands) are being prevented to have a normal family live by applying national laws instead of EU laws. In court they will loose. It is just a too costly procedure in time and money.

The world is changing and people are not living in one place like 50 years ago. The rules are not up to date.

With "a little longer" i actually wanted to say, i would like to have a choice on how long i stay. It can depend on many things. Simple things as a family birthday can be a reason to stay a while longer, or christmas or whatever other reason. Maybe you are somewhere that you like a lot and want to stay for a year. This is possible for a EU citizen. But not if you country is not accepting your spouse.

The same thing is with aknowledging that you are living together. Time together in the Netherlands counts, time in ALL countries count except the country of your spouse!! Like it is not normal to live close to your or your spouses family. To crazy for words. The dutch citizenship is not what we are after. A citizenship of any country in the EU is good for us.

Khun Jean,

Do read and study the Dutch websites a bit more, (in particular regarding inburgeringsplicht/cursus/examen, and requirements regarding MVV applications etc.), there are a few statements and assumptions in your message that are definitely not correct, but goes beyond the scope of this tread. It might however be useful to some/many on thaivisa.com, so worth a new thread/board/topic.

Also, what is possible for a EU citizen in theory, does not reflect the sad reality. Apart from my (Dutch) daughter not being welcome in Holland (no child support for instance) I am neither. For example, I had to fill in a form stating in what country I was born, where my parents were from, why I came to Holland. City council didn't trust my application for child support. Funny if it wasn't so sad.

The "warning" I issued before more or less, "don't expect any sympathy, exceptions, emotions whatsoever". Don't even expect justice, compliance with international laws etc ... it will just frustrate you more and more.

[Khun Jean]

Your remarks are appreciated.

I had a very bumpy road with so many embassy and departments it was unbelievable. Papers getting lost, having to post originals without the possibility of bringing them personaly. Things that should take 2-3 weeks took 6-7 months. My daughter is still not my daughter officially. Embassy switched first and last names! To silly for words. That little mistake took 4 years to correct. Everyone pointing to someone else. Next visit to the Netherlands it will be corrected. I hope....

This "route" probably has some (big) bumps too. It is to be expected.

I will be oke. The choice now is to not be seperated again. If we can't be together as a family in one country we just pick another. The rest is now just a minor nuisance.