Koh Tao murders: Thai police 'not embarrassed' by UK probe

[ParadiseLost]

And that is a big part of the problem. Created, in part by various police "sources" supposedly leaking all sorts of stories and wild theories to the press. The accuracy of reporting what was actually said and the accuracy of translating are not things the Thai press are known for. Wild theories about jealous homosexual farangs, must be the Burmese migrant workers, must be Rohinga's, cannot be Thai (which has been often misquoted from what the guy actually said), misleading comments about DNA, statements Thais would be arrested in 3 days, apparently doctored CCTV footage, then the footballers, a uncorroborated report of attempted perversion of justice by a taxi driver, the dubious now changed comments from a drunken convicted pedophile, the appearance of sites on social media claiming to know the killers - although no actual evidence, all based on conspiracy theories and an apparent healthy dislike for certain Thai people / families - could this be rival families stirring up trouble, or those with their own agenda?

The local island police were obviously clueless about what to do and how to handle a crime like this. The allowed all sorts of people to wander the crime scene, posted crime scene photos on social media and did the usual Thai trick of trying to blame anybody quickly, without any work or logic to support it. Just to get it off their desks to somebody else. Apparent leads, possible suspects, have simply been ignored, not followed up or not reported on.

So no, I don't think the world and his wife really do know what actually happened and who was involved in this very gruesome, brutal murder.

What is evident, is a number of people have read about this buggers muddle of a cocked up investigation and decided who they would like to be guilty. The Thais, as usual, simply want it all to go away as quickly as possible and have no interest in actually seeing justice served no matter how long it takes, how much hard work is involved or what the results are. They can't be bothered, and in a country where "justice" and the rule of law depends on your bank balance, connections and family name before anything else, is that surprising.

The only good sign is the growing discontent with the corrupt justice system by so many Thai people.

In reality, we can only make assumption based on all the above. But that's all they are assumptions.

Hopefully, the British police officers who come will be able to find more. But somehow, the Thais will stonewall, give completely irrelevant answers, change the subject, say cannot whenever they like and allow no unsupervised actions. They have already made their mind up - perfect investigation, case closed.

I would like to suggest that this does not appear to be bungled entirely; the outcome was decided and engineered very soon after the crime was committed and the scene was set before the KP and Surat police arrived...

My theory is that there was an attempt at a proper investigation but the version of events the Surat police were given was not the truth. When the Surat police stumbled upon the real suspects they were replaced by Bangkok police and the Myanmar guys (who were previously tested) were - selected. Their presence on the beach that night does not make them guilty, only an inconclusive DNA match can do this but the DNA handling during the investigation makes it far from conclusive...

There is also the question of a third DNA trace found on Hannah, disclosed during the interview of a policeman and a police pathologist by Sorayud on Channel 3. This was never mentioned again, as the case would definitely fall apart.

So, inept police - maybe, but I don't think they stood a chance. More like they (Surat) were caught in a web of deceit and lies, set up early that morning.

Hopefully the truth is now waiting behind the curtain, ready to make a big entrance. Sure to bring the house down!

Edited October 21, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[kaobang]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/world/europe/in-search-for-killer-dna-sweep-exposes-intimate-family-secrets-in-italy.html?_r=0

dna taken to nearly 22,000 people..no matter how influential

caught the killer?yes.

"A court order can be issued in case someone refuses to be tested, “but I never needed one because everyone submitted to the test voluntarily,"

[Gweiloman]

And that is a big part of the problem. Created, in part by various police "sources" supposedly leaking all sorts of stories and wild theories to the press. The accuracy of reporting what was actually said and the accuracy of translating are not things the Thai press are known for. Wild theories about jealous homosexual farangs, must be the Burmese migrant workers, must be Rohinga's, cannot be Thai (which has been often misquoted from what the guy actually said), misleading comments about DNA, statements Thais would be arrested in 3 days, apparently doctored CCTV footage, then the footballers, a uncorroborated report of attempted perversion of justice by a taxi driver, the dubious now changed comments from a drunken convicted pedophile, the appearance of sites on social media claiming to know the killers - although no actual evidence, all based on conspiracy theories and an apparent healthy dislike for certain Thai people / families - could this be rival families stirring up trouble, or those with their own agenda?

The local island police were obviously clueless about what to do and how to handle a crime like this. The allowed all sorts of people to wander the crime scene, posted crime scene photos on social media and did the usual Thai trick of trying to blame anybody quickly, without any work or logic to support it. Just to get it off their desks to somebody else. Apparent leads, possible suspects, have simply been ignored, not followed up or not reported on.

So no, I don't think the world and his wife really do know what actually happened and who was involved in this very gruesome, brutal murder.

What is evident, is a number of people have read about this buggers muddle of a cocked up investigation and decided who they would like to be guilty. The Thais, as usual, simply want it all to go away as quickly as possible and have no interest in actually seeing justice served no matter how long it takes, how much hard work is involved or what the results are. They can't be bothered, and in a country where "justice" and the rule of law depends on your bank balance, connections and family name before anything else, is that surprising.

The only good sign is the growing discontent with the corrupt justice system by so many Thai people.

In reality, we can only make assumption based on all the above. But that's all they are assumptions.

Hopefully, the British police officers who come will be able to find more. But somehow, the Thais will stonewall, give completely irrelevant answers, change the subject, say cannot whenever they like and allow no unsupervised actions. They have already made their mind up - perfect investigation, case closed.

I would like to suggest that this does not appear to be bungled entirely; the outcome was decided and engineered very soon after the crime was committed and the scene was set before the KP and Surat police arrived...

My theory is that there was an attempt at a proper investigation but the version of events the Surat police were given was not the truth. When the Surat police stumbled upon the real suspects they were replaced by Bangkok police and the Myanmar guys (who were previously tested) were - selected. Their presence on the beach that night does not make them guilty, only an inconclusive DNA match can do this but the DNA handling during the investigation makes it far from conclusive...

There is also the question of a third DNA trace found on Hannah, disclosed during the interview of a policeman and a police pathologist by Sorayud on Channel 3. This was never mentioned again, as the case would definitely fall apart.

So, inept police - maybe, but I don't think they stood a chance. More like they (Surat) were caught in a web of deceit and lies, set up early that morning.

Hopefully the truth is now waiting behind the curtain, ready to make a big entrance. Sure to bring the house down!

Thanks for the link to the Nation's article. This makes very interesting reading, especially in light of what has surfaced since then.

I understand that shortly after, Panya was removed from the investigation. Does anyone have a link to that?

[Number 3]

They will be embarrassed if this is the truth

So anybody think this could be more like the truth?

A massage from Koh Tao Burmese community

First of all, Thanks a million to CSI LA and fellow Thai friends for standing up for the Justice.

Some Burmese people in Koh Tao whispered that the murder was not happened on the beach, it was happened in the guest house where British couple were staying.

According to them, Nomsod and his fellow gangsters have harassed and molested the British girl in AC Bar and got fight with the girl, when the British girl has gone back to the guest house after fight, they followed and killed the boyfriend, raped the girl and killed her too. Altogether 5 people, Nomsod and 4 Thai Gangsters (one of them was rumored as a Thai policeman) who worked for his father were involved in the murder. After the murder, they carried the bodies to the beach which is 50 meters away from the guest house, staged as a couple were having sex on the beach and killed on the beach.

Two Burmese boys accused were also workers of one of Nomsod's father's businesses on the island, and they were playing a guitar on the beach when Nomsod and his gangsters carrying bodies, and Burmese workers were also asked to helped them carry the bodies too. Two Burmese have to do it because they scared of Nomsod and his gang and his father too. Which mean their DNA can be found on the bodies too. Which make them a perfect scapegoats.

The whole Koh Tao community knows about what really happened that night but everybody were scared of Nomsod's family and their gangsters and also the police thus nobody dare to speak out, Koh Tao Burmese were saying its not a secret that Nomsod family is making millions of bath for Thai police every month from many different illegal businesses on the island, and this case too, there was also a rumor that every Thai policeman involved in this case were already bribed handsomely by the Nomsod family.

The whole point of a message is to inform the Scotland Yard Police to focus on Nomsad and his thugs, AC Bar, Guest House, Sperm DNA inside the British Girl's womb and find a match. Not to trust on the 'murdered on the beach' fairy tale and tempered evidences and CCTVs on the whole island that are under the Nomsod's family influence.

Sex on the beach scenario definitely staged without question.

However David would have bled out profuse and there is no blood on his tshirt so tshirt has to have come off first. Secondly the shorts left behind were not David's so we do not know about blood on these or not. Somehow the attackers became confused, so there was another person there without shorts on.

Let it be said that the shorts left behind would contain traces of DNA of the owner. Without a doubt.

The two murdered kids were sharing rooms with friends. We do know that David left his room to get some fags. I believe he met up with Sean at this point.

The blood spatter in the rooms of the guest house plus the yelling or screaming that would have ensued along with carrying bodies out - well frankly does not add up. It would be impossible to cover up all these aspects simultaneously.

From the contact I have on KT you're dead right on the suspects but the scenario involves the beach involves Sean and a stinking amount of money. You'll find the trail through Surat KT KPN and KS. The police speedboat little duck implicates chumpon police also.

[CBR650]

Wasn't David also raped? Early reports stated as such.

An explosive rage attack, fueled by drugs and psychosis, and a need to sedate one's hurt ego and loss of face, in the (correct) belief that they will not be held accountable as it is their island and their beach.

[Number 3]

Wasn't David also raped? Early reports stated as such.

An explosive rage attack, fueled by drugs and psychosis, and a need to sedate one's hurt ego and loss of face, in the (correct) belief that they will not be held accountable as it is their island and their beach.

Red herring. It was part of the bisexual jealous farang attack scenario that the coppers first imagined in the weird little minds.

[debrakfurlow]

Briggsy. It has been 14 yrs since the Kristy Jones murder/rape and guess what? The police were said to have botched the investigation and evidence was mishandled. Sound familiar? Amazingly enough according to the news (not Thai). The British investigation did DNA tests and identified the murderer. 16 mo ago. Sure. Anyway, 14 yrs later and no changes in police investigations? TIT.

[Number 3]

Briggsy. It has been 14 yrs since the Kristy Jones murder/rape and guess what? The police were said to have botched the investigation and evidence was mishandled. Sound familiar? Amazingly enough according to the news (not Thai). The British investigation did DNA tests and identified the murderer. 16 mo ago. Sure. Anyway, 14 yrs later and no changes in police investigations? TIT.

I believe the bbc were instrumental in securing the identity of this person and were barred from Thailand and for a while as a result if i am not mistaken. The investigation all led to a person of influence who is still free.

[Johnsen]

What was the name of the guest house they stayed at please..

[debrakfurlow]

The guesthouse was "Aree" and not actually IN Chaingmai, but up in the hills between here and Bangkok. It was a real nasty place.

[debrakfurlow]

There's another article that says it's old city CM. TIT.

[stevecm]

There's another article that says it's old city CM. TIT.

It was in the old city

[heyexile]

What was the name of the guest house they stayed at please..

OCEAN VIEW BUNGALOWS, for dear D & H, according to the Mirror. You might find google useful for future ref.

AREE GUESTHOUSE for poor Kirsty, Moom Muang Rd, Soi 9, Chang Mai

Edited October 21, 2014 by heyexile

[ffaarraanngg]

Surely i that scenario were true, there would have been huge screams and a hell of a lot of noise at the guest house yet no one has came forward and said they heard a thing.

[mojorison]

Surely i that scenario were true, there would have been huge screams and a hell of a lot of noise at the guest house yet no one has came forward and said they heard a thing.

Yeah. I've been following closely...(because I live nearby)... and the stories are becoming more and more elaborate. I do know however that any average cop will see through the BS in about half a second. I'm wondering though what role diplomacy will take. Are we looking for justice for the deceased, or will they compromise and secure justice for the accused. We will have to wait and see. (I hope they go hard, because it could really send tremors through Thai establishment.)

[BoristheBlade]

I don't think it\s anything to do with the vicims been "connected". They were just 2 young, very decent people.

Anybody know for sure why this case is getting so much attention? The fact that the PM Cameron requested personally makes me that the victim's family must be very connected politically. I have never seen a murder of a farang get this much focus. But it does sound like the court case is pretty set in stone and they don't even say if any new evidence can be brought to the court by these investigators... Also thinking that maybe these investigators are already here secretly, not yet revealing themselves to the authority.

alot of drugs comes through his island. do you think he makes his money from drunk tourist? rent? untouchables? no one is untouchable. nobody need to go to the island. and it will still make money from drug sales in bkk. .. cut this first.

[mojorison]

Anybody know for sure why this case is getting so much attention? The fact that the PM Cameron requested personally makes me that the victim's family must be very connected politically. I have never seen a murder of a farang get this much focus. But it does sound like the court case is pretty set in stone and they don't even say if any new evidence can be brought to the court by these investigators... Also thinking that maybe these investigators are already here secretly, not yet revealing themselves to the authority.

alot of drugs comes through his island. do you think he makes his money from drunk tourist? rent? untouchables? no one is untouchable. nobody need to go to the island. and it will still make money from drug sales in bkk. .. cut this first.

Not sure where you get this info... but I'm pretty sure the drug trade is pretty one way. It flows freely and in abundance to Koh Tao... Koh Tao is certainly not on the trade route for passing anything to BKK. These guys make their money, from local sales of everything illicit (drugs, hookers, parties etc.) They also make it from rentals of anything you can rent... and they make it from "protection", (which is the biggy when you factor in an incredibly lucrative diving industry). You work out the rest.

[Johnsen]

Somebody at that guesthouse must have done a lot of cleaning. Anybody who has stayed there know if they have CCTV footage at the guesthouse or nearby. What chance they were both drugged before they were set upon. How did the murderers gain access to their rooms. Who owns the guesthouse. Lots more questions to be asked now.

[ParadiseLost]

I've mentioned before but I read that there are in fact no places in Thailand that have internationally recognised credentials for doing DNA testing - is this correct?

There is no clear statement as to how and where the DNA tests were carried out - there was a statement from the police that the DNA found on the victim matched the accused

Further to this - the head of the department of forensics science in Bangkok made a statement questioning why they were not tasked on this high profile case from the start - in fact it seems they have never been involved which in itself is rather troubling - and they wonder why questions are being asked

and the reason this case is getting so much interest is the fact that who ever did this left behind irefutible DNA evidence that makes it very easy to prove without doubt who was involved and a rather vague statement by police that the DNA matched the suspects

The key here is that nobody believes the police that were involved for various reasons including the raft of miss information conflicting reports and other behind the scenes goings on like people being offered money to testify - the local head man and his brother and son involvement etc etc more holes than a pin cushion

There is just something not right going on here and most people with an ounce of grey matter know it

Found this article which gives some info about where initial testing was carried out.

This report describes how the bodies were sent to Bangkok, the afternoon of 16 September,

Edited October 21, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[ParadiseLost]

Looking at news reports exclusively delivers up some very interesting info, which I may have missed, or just browsed over...

Note who wanted to ask for FBI help the day before his first visit to Koh Tao:

"Pol Gen Somyos Poompanmuang, the acting national police chief, said today (Friday) that equipments available in Thailand were not as sophisticated as those used by the FBI which could pinpoint whether the DNA belong to an Asian or a Caucasian"

This article describes how an arrest was made after cctv evidence implicated the family:

"Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

Edited October 21, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[Gweiloman]

Looking at news reports exclusively delivers up some very interesting info, which I may have missed, or just browsed over...

Note who wanted to ask for FBI help the day before his first visit to Koh Tao:

"Pol Gen Somyos Poompanmuang, the acting national police chief, said today (Friday) that equipments available in Thailand were not as sophisticated as those used by the FBI which could pinpoint whether the DNA belong to an Asian or a Caucasian"

This article describes how an arrest was made after cctv evidence implicated the family:

"Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen reminds me of a good movie I watched many, many years ago.... what was it called..... oh yes, I remember now..... A Few Good Men .... though obviously a mirror image.....

p/s: for more clarity, ignore the actual plot of the movie, just focus on the name of the movie.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Gweiloman

[MikePhuket1970]

According to the Link above the Police were on the right track(http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run/)

to arrest Mon and Nomsod.

But then must some phone calls destroy the whole case and it was shifting into

a great cover up.

[joedot]

There are now 336,000 likes on the CSI LA facebook page. Are all these people just smoking crack? Where there is smoke there is fire. If the Thai police really had the killers that large a group of people would figure it out. They would not be feverishly posting about how corrupt the investigation is and that the guys are scapegoats. That is the cool thing about humans. There are always a few nutjobs, but when you get a very large group together they find a way to the true answer. Now the hard part is getting the Thai authorities to admit to the bull sht. But that will be a difficult task since all their palms are greased, and if one guy gets caught they just throw him to the dogs and then continue in their ways. They don't want to do anything that would mean less money for them.

Edited October 21, 2014 by joedot

[joedot]

There aren't many countries more obsessed with money and with as much corruption from top to bottom as Thailand. Just as an example, you have to pay money to get a job here. There are teachers in my wife's school that have to pay the big boss 200k baht to get a job, and they only start out making 100k a year. The big boss is trying to get back the money he paid the big man so he could get his position. He regularly dips into all the funds for the school projects, essentially stealing from the children. This sht is pervasive in this country. That's in the educational system. Really this is so fking pathetic I don't even know what to say anymore.

[Gweiloman]

Looking at news reports exclusively delivers up some very interesting info, which I may have missed, or just browsed over...

Note who wanted to ask for FBI help the day before his first visit to Koh Tao:

"Pol Gen Somyos Poompanmuang, the acting national police chief, said today (Friday) that equipments available in Thailand were not as sophisticated as those used by the FBI which could pinpoint whether the DNA belong to an Asian or a Caucasian"

This article describes how an arrest was made after cctv evidence implicated the family:

"Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen reminds me of a good movie I watched many, many years ago.... what was it called..... oh yes, I remember now..... A Few Good Men .... though obviously a mirror image.....

p/s: for more clarity, ignore the actual plot of the movie, just focus on the name of the movie.

Then of course, as one follows the plot, real life becomes more like the movie

[SteveFong]

just one thing needs to be done otherwise it will not make any difference if the UK police are here or not

Number 1 - The UK police need to take their own DNA samples of the suspects to match it with the DNA found on the bodies which the UK police has.

Simple...and the uk police should be able to do this. They should also make a formal request to be able to do this...if refused then you know 100% that something is wrong. In the uk in DNA checks can be requested and independently done by any party if they request so. So stop them doing this would be sure sign of a cover up.

The tests here were not done independently.....the results were done independently but the samples came from the Thai police....plenty of time to frame, falsify evidence. The whole process needs to be done independently, simple as that.

on old Japanese guy was recently murdered by a Thai woman and her Thai husband taxi driver,

the first thing the son of the Japanese victim did when he arrived, was give a sample of his DNA for evidence sampling

that is what the innocent or aggrieved do

but not Thai power families

[SteveFong]

Looking at news reports exclusively delivers up some very interesting info, which I may have missed, or just browsed over...

Note who wanted to ask for FBI help the day before his first visit to Koh Tao:

"Pol Gen Somyos Poompanmuang, the acting national police chief, said today (Friday) that equipments available in Thailand were not as sophisticated as those used by the FBI which could pinpoint whether the DNA belong to an Asian or a Caucasian"

This article describes how an arrest was made after cctv evidence implicated the family:

"Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen reminds me of a good movie I watched many, many years ago.... what was it called..... oh yes, I remember now..... A Few Good Men .... though obviously a mirror image.....

p/s: for more clarity, ignore the actual plot of the movie, just focus on the name of the movie.

Then of course, as one follows the plot, real life becomes more like the movie

Anyone who looks at the two photos of the Police announcing it is Mon and they arrested one of the other killers,

Then looks at the photo where they say it isnt Mon, and no mention of the other man arrested and apparently released by decree

can see they are both under extreme duress, as they lie to the world about the killing

Scotland Yard detectives need have a look at those

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run/

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe/

[Heisenberg01]

Guiltyier than a puppy sitting next to a pile of Pooh.

Whats the hold up with brit coppers, what are they dicking about out?

[Oziex1]

Guiltyier than a puppy sitting next to a pile of Pooh.

Whats the hold up with brit coppers, what are they dicking about out?

Biding their time, I'm sure there is purpose to it.

Let them make plans, let them make new plans, let them stew, let them make more announcements, let them make more mistakes.

[SteveFong]

Guiltyier than a puppy sitting next to a pile of Pooh.

Whats the hold up with brit coppers, what are they dicking about out?

Biding their time, I'm sure there is purpose to it.

Let them make plans, let them make new plans, let them stew, let them make more announcements, let them make more mistakes.

Time is not on the side of the detectives at this point in the process,

it is working against the two Burmese boys who, unless I missed it, have not even seen their parents yet