I came across this website and was intrigued. I have searched the forum but found no other reference to it. It seems to be some sort of property/ legal advice site with a definate slant against the purchase of land by foreigners. There is a lot of information on the site as well as updates on all the latest scandals. Does anyone know who is behind this?

http://www.samuiforsale.com/

P.S. The only person I could think of was Khun Jean!

Whois Record

domain: samuiforsale.com

origin-c: JOCO-928291

owner: V Borstlap

organization: FirstFind

email:

address: Schrevenweg 5-17

city: Zwolle

state: --

postal-code: 8024 HB

country: NL

phone: +31.384530752

admin-c: #22365

tech-c: #22366

billing-c: #22367

reseller: firstfind.nl

nserver: ns3.firstfind.nl

nserver: ns4.firstfind.nl

status: lock

created: 2005-10-25 08:04:23 UTC

modified: 2005-10-25 08:04:23 UTC

expires: 2006-10-25 04:04:23 UTC

D@mn somebody beat me to it.

If they stay to the facts only and leave out all the 'loose' interpretations i applaud the effort.

Everything is already on the internet but scattered over many sites.

Combining it in one site is a good thougt.

Naming it Samuiforsale is marketing savvy. Samui is in the news a lot and people will find it more easy.

I was/am never against foreigners buying land, but after meeting people while i had my shop in Samui i noticed all of them without exception had no idea whatsoever they got into.

The number of people with 30+30+30 leases as was promoted by the local laywer accross the street was amazing.

Company setups to own land were done with the laywers employees on the document. I've seen the documents and it was no surprise that names where used many times. Shareholders, in reality nominees.

In Samui i was eating in the foodcourt in Lotus. It was very busy and an older Swedish guy started talking to me about his plans to buy a house (20 Mb) for himself and his at least 35 years younger girlfriend. What should you do in such a situation when somebody asks advice? Tell him no worry or try to explain what is said in the written law. I choose the last option and he was not really happy about it. But he did make the decision to not buy it and see it through more carefully. I don't want to tell everybody, but if they ask you for some advice, do you lie or tell them the truth about how the law works in Thailand.

In my shop in Samui i met many foreigners, and you would be surprised how many do everything to stay with their newly found girlfriend of two weeks, buy houses, land etc..

At some moment you see a pattern and start thinking what is getting into these guys. While they are lovesick puppies, nothing wrong with that of course, they are an easy target for realestate agents and laywers.

I can talk a little bit more freely now as all my connections with Samui are broken. But it was said to me in a very kind way to not tell people to much. I must have busted some lucrative deals. Knowing my place and vulnerability, especially after that "message" and finding our shop completely robbed empty the next day was enough for me to move away from Samui.

In older messages from me you can read about the "big tattood" guys and big bikes, never suspected at that moment they were part from a gang. But having them as neigbours is certainly a novel experience. But i have to add, none of them were involved in that "message". That "message" came from the guys in the suits.

Having been accused to tell "horror" stories can be seen in a different light now i think.

If it was my website i probably could not withstand the urge to write some more colorfull experiences.

It does point that way lol.Holland.

Not good form to post someone's details. How about removing that part of the post?

that info is available for everyone to see whith a simple who is search, nothing wrong with putting it here.

The surprising thing is how long the site has been up and not been discussed on this forum. It was set up prior to all the latest scandals. There is aan awful lot of information there.

I said in the title that I was intrigued. I still am. The site owner being from the Netherlands is interesting. I think however that the domain is registered in the name of a dutch IT company and therefore not be the person updating the site. Where are they from? There's loads of stuff on the net but I can't speak dutch!

Could be a rather direct attempt to undermine the property market on Samui

I am extremely jealous. This site deserve to be mentioned a lot.

My efforts to find and accumulate legal information is in 1 time unnecessary. The b@stards.

It is strange that this site is found recently. I am a heavy user of search engines and i never found a link to it. I guess it was registered some time ago but went online recently. Great timing!

So far this is the first site i have seen that states only facts. Has no commercials, and good articles.

Charma, if you found something that looks interesting i can translate it for you.

FirstFind.nl is a hosting company. They have more than 11.000 sites. V.Borstlap is the technical contact for many domains.

Fullname is FirstFind E-Consults which is part of Your Hosting B.V. (www.yourhosting.nl)

Nothing special and they are certainly not the ones that provide the content.

I just send samuiforsale an e-mail congratulating them on this great wensite.

I came across this website and was intrigued. I have searched the forum but found no other reference to it. It seems to be some sort of property/ legal advice site with a definate slant against the purchase of land by foreigners. There is a lot of information on the site as well as updates on all the latest scandals. Does anyone know who is behind this?

http://www.samuiforsale.com/

P.S. The only person I could think of was Khun Jean!

I wonder if all those LL.M.s no its illegal in Thailand to use the Garuda unless you have royal permission?

I am extremely jealous. This site deserve to be mentioned a lot.

My efforts to find and accumulate legal information is in 1 time unnecessary. The b@stards.

It is strange that this site is found recently. I am a heavy user of search engines and i never found a link to it. I guess it was registered some time ago but went online recently. Great timing!

So far this is the first site i have seen that states only facts. Has no commercials, and good articles.

Charma, if you found something that looks interesting i can translate it for you.

FirstFind.nl is a hosting company. They have more than 11.000 sites. V.Borstlap is the technical contact for many domains.

Fullname is FirstFind E-Consults which is part of Your Hosting B.V. (www.yourhosting.nl)

Nothing special and they are certainly not the ones that provide the content.

I just send samuiforsale an e-mail congratulating them on this great wensite.

Khun Jean,good to see you so happy for once.I still maintain you have a hand in it lol, feel better now OK only joking.Your XMAS has come early.

The surprising thing is how long the site has been up and not been discussed on this forum. It was set up prior to all the latest scandals. There is aan awful lot of information there.

I said in the title that I was intrigued. I still am. The site owner being from the Netherlands is interesting. I think however that the domain is registered in the name of a dutch IT company and therefore not be the person updating the site. Where are they from? There's loads of stuff on the net but I can't speak dutch!

Could be a rather direct attempt to undermine the property market on Samui

Charma, you say you don't speak dutch, no worries, the speak English.

So, has anyone checked the accuracy of their info? I mean, they present it in a very factual seeming way which lends an air of legitimacy but I would be curious as to how truly correct it was.

Just guessing of course, but I'd say the website is the brainchild of some enterprising Thai lawyers. You'll note they make reference to the fact you shouldn't trust Samui lawyers to protect your interests, while referring you to a list of Bangkok attorneys. Additionally they have boilerplate contracts for sale through the website, which points perhaps to a consortium of Thai attorneys. All very well presented I must say.

I did a lot of research and collecting myself about the law in Thailand. As far is i can see they quote the correct articles. They have a lot more than i found, and all in one place. I copied all the texts and am now reading them and crosschecking it with other references. So far it seems very accurate. Subjects about workpermits, inheretance was not what i looked for before so i have nothing to compare it with yet.

About land laws and leases, i know all about those.

Actually the law IS very clear, it is the laywers -and especially the ones under the influence of real estate agents, that think up all sorts of ways to circumvent it.

I have the feeling some laywers -the good ones (do they exist - just got fed up with all the bad things that happened and wanted to set things straight.

The surprising thing is how long the site has been up and not been discussed on this forum. It was set up prior to all the latest scandals. There is aan awful lot of information there.

I said in the title that I was intrigued. I still am. The site owner being from the Netherlands is interesting. I think however that the domain is registered in the name of a dutch IT company and therefore not be the person updating the site. Where are they from? There's loads of stuff on the net but I can't speak dutch!

Could be a rather direct attempt to undermine the property market on Samui

Charma, you say you don't speak dutch, no worries, the speak English.

I do speak double dutch when I talk to my wife (or is that pidgin English?)

It seems the dutch connection is merely for the purchase and setting up of the website and that the originators are probably Thai. I have seen a few "spoiler sites" before, but not one with so much information. They are usually set up by disgruntled customers or employees who want to hit back at something. There is a definate anti-foreign purchase theme. Look at the opening line:

"Can foreign nationals safely buy or own land in Thailand? The answer is NO". That is what made me think of KJ. Although they are not quite as vehement as KJ in that they have used the word "safely" in their statements.

I would love to know who they are, particularly as the domain name itself is focused on Samui and this was set up before all the recent publicity. Although it is an attack on foreign purchase in Samui, the principle applies to the whole of Thailand.

Perhaps KJ can fill us in if he gets a response from his congratulatory email?

P.S. Despite posing this question on three previous threads, I have yet to see an answer: Has anyone out there lost property or land whatsoever as a result of the recent "clampdown" frenzy?

P.S. Despite posing this question on three previous threads, I have yet to see an answer: Has anyone out there lost property or land whatsoever as a result of the recent "clampdown" frenzy?

Charma,it would be a bit too early to tell.With all legal proceses & the such.I believe it might be months or years ,when you start seeing the real fallout.

P.S. Despite posing this question on three previous threads, I have yet to see an answer: Has anyone out there lost property or land whatsoever as a result of the recent "clampdown" frenzy?

Charma,it would be a bit too early to tell.With all legal proceses & the such.I believe it might be months or years ,when you start seeing the real fallout.

That's a fair point Rooo. But now were a few months down the line I would have expected someone to post something about one of these "investigations" starting on their company. Especially given the sheer number of foreign land purchasers using that method. I accept that the full process would be longer. Not a sniff at the moment though.

Not enforcing the law does not mean it will not happen. Playing it save, and i especially mean people who invest their retirement money in a home to enjoy their twilight years, not the milionares that buy 40 million baht houses which is pocket change, they should have good laywers to explain the issues.

If you play against the odds, someday it will go bad. Even worse is that most people who buy HAVE NO IDEA that what they are doing is not legal.

Maybe in 5, 10 to 15 years Thailand is not a bananarepublic with wild west principles anymore. Cleaning up their act can have some nasty consequences.

Now if there was nothing for rent at very low prices i can imagine you want to build something for yourself.

A good alternative to putting your money in land/house which is not yours ever, is to keep the money in in the bank and it will make more than enough to cover the rental price for a very long time, probably forever.

In Samui i did my rounds looking for prices of land. When you start talking to Thai people who live there you would be surprised how many are open to a 30 year lease. And not everything upfront but in yearly installments. Would that not be a better option. 7000-10000 baht a month for a nice 1 rai piece of land is easy to find. And paying around 100.000 baht a year for 1 rai is a good deal. You still would have a lot of money left to build the house.

The problem with what is been done sofar is that the ones who will suffer are the ones that bought land and house in good faith. It can be 1 year, 5, 10 years but something will happen and it won't be pretty.

If you want examples, Spain, Greece and Mexico come to mind.

One thing is for sure, the "developers" are long gone, so what do they care. Want to sue a laywer because the advise given made you act against the law, good luck. Ultimately everone is responsible for his own acts. You are supposed to know the law, thats why it is public, for everyone to read when in doubt!

The Thai government will probably give you 180 days to get rid of the property, so losing all your money is probably not going to happen. (This will be the reason it will happen! Nobody loses face!) Getting the same price though might be impossible.

Stick to the law and you will have piece of mind, which a lot of people don't have at the moment. Just look around on this forum, so many messages about people who are worried. Think about the older people who worry the most and how many of those have access to the information available on the internet?

Not nice when you just wanted to have a nice home to spend your time. Paradise can change into a h_ll very quick.

For the people who went in with knowing all the facts, i wish you the best and i hope nothing bad will happen. At least they knew the risks and went in considering the risks. A very small percentage i think.

Maybe its just me, but does anybody else think that khun Jean comes across as a complete bell end?

Maybe its just me, but does anybody else think that khun Jean comes across as a complete bell end?

I thought that was one on KJ's more reasonable posts!

Like the "samuiforsale" website KJ, you are firmly of the view that owning land in Thailand is impossible. My own view is that a company purchase can be safe (as much as the word safe can be applied to anything in life) as long as the shareholding is set up according to the law. I accept that this will mean knowing Thai nationals that can become "bona fide" shareholders and that this may not be possible for some.

You cite renting as a good alternative. I know this has been done to death on other threads, but consider this:

A reasonably modern 3 bed house could cost around 25,000 per month to rent.

Pay this for 30 years and allow for inflation increases of around 4% p.a.

By the end of the thirty years you will have paid over 17 million baht. It will be a lot more if inflation makes any sudden jumps. You will also not have been able to modify your home and would always be at the mercy of the landlord.

The same house can be purchased for around 4.5 million baht. Lets say this is done with a 30+30 year lease. At the end of that 30 year period we may assume that the +30 year lease is revoked and the house is lost. So what has this cost. Assuming you put the cash in a bank and achieved a 5% return compounded, it would have saved you around 19 million baht. So for 2 million baht you would have had total control of your house for that period of time. And there is always the chance that the +30 lease would work. For someone over 50 years old, this may be a good option to consider. Sure, they may not have the house to hand down to family, but you don't get that from renting either! They would have had peace of mind for thirty years.

Maybe its just me, but does anybody else think that khun Jean comes across as a complete bell end?

I ring a bell sometimes, so you might be right.

Everybody can do what they want. Go break the law if you are comfortable with it. If it is still not clear that in most situations a company owned house and land is illegal than all my warnings are worth mentioning. I MIGHT cause somebody to go read the law by themselves and make up their own mind. That is all i want to achieve.

If nobody says anything and just accepts everything realestate agents and his lawyer buddies tell you they wil have a field day (As they had for a few years until this recent crack down).

90% Not registered! It is a fact not fiction. If you buy from them, good luck.

You would have only 10% change to meet the good one! That means also a 90% change that you bought something illegal or not registered correctly.

I might be a bell end, but proof it that anything i said is not what is clearly stated in the Thai law.

If you want to check it the site mentioned has not only a good summary of articles from the law but you can also read them on the governments websit too. Just click on the Links menu. Happy reading. I spend a few months on those sites!

Leemond, can i ask you something. Did you read all the laws relevant to owning land in Thailand, and the laws for starting a company? I did, i researched it very thoroughly. I asked lawyers, read government website, bought books about the subject. Bored my wife silly to ask for translations of texts and copies of landtitle documents and translate conversations with local people. Talking with lawyers did not give me a good feeling. When you ask an important question you don't expect an answer like "That is no problem, we do this very often and it works very good." I rather have an answer that said "In article such and such it says this is allowed and this not. etc.." And if you ask deeper questions they get uncomfortable, i guess because they first saw another farang and an easy way to make money. Now i was difficult and just taking too much time. Time i paid for i might say.

I also had the intention to buy some land and build a nice house. I just decided after reading and researching as much as possible, and having the feeling the laywers were not really straight with there answers, that it was not worth the risk for me.

So don't say something like you said in your mail that will give the impression everything i wrote is nonsense. Come with facts and quote some laws if you like to proof the contrary. For me to proof everything is easy. Read the news and read the laws from Thailand. And again, if some law is not enforced it does not mean the law is not there.

Charma,

A house with a rental price of 25.000 would have had a sale price of around 7.5-9 million. If not than the 25.000 is too much. A 4.5 million house should cost around 15.000 baht a month.

If you look around you will notice that this "divided by 300" is very common. In the west this would be considered a very bad return. Here in Thailand it is more the norm to start with. Good examples can be found on repossesed houses from the banks. They often have this 300:1 ratio. You can expect that this will be better in highly popular areas and to some extend that is true. A 200:1 ratio is for the very luxery top locations. If you gave an example of that than you are right about renting or buying and the difference in money spend.

I was looking more in the "middle" class areas and houses.

I rented a 1 bedroom house on the beach in Samui, with a private garden of around 150 sqm.

For the costly sum of 8000 baht a month. It was south of Lamai. I have seen many in the price range of 8-15 thousand. Some very beautiful and some awfull. What was obvious, the ones offered by realestate agents were always the most expensive. They have to live of something so i don't mind they ask a premium price. Just don't think what is on the window of a broker or in glossy magazines represent the real worth of houses and there rental prices. Try talking to some people who are trying to sell there houses, some are for sale a long time because the prices they ask are prices they are dreaming of. But then again, you never know when the one person walks in and just buys it.

At the end it all depends on what you want to do and what kind of risks you want to take. The company route seems safe. I think it is very unsafe. Just a personal opinion and one that is backed up by the law.

My own view is that a company purchase can be safe (as much as the word safe can be applied to anything in life) as long as the shareholding is set up according to the law. I accept that this will mean knowing Thai nationals that can become "bona fide" shareholders and that this may not be possible for some.

Sure it can be done. But how many of the current businesses are setup that way. I have to guess only a few. Time will tell.

Another point is that if you setup a company it also should state its "mission". Profit has to be made, and no renting a house is not enough. Also there have to be shareholder meetings with agendas, bookkeeping, and taxes to be paid on the profit that has been made. Publications of your balance sheets. How many of those obligations are done by the lawyers by just "creating" some invoices and profit. You have a change all this will go unnoticed, but will it go unnoticed all the years you will live in the house? And how do you know the lawyers do a good job and not do the same with all the companies that they created for this purpose. Like standard meeting notations, often used invoices, proft and loss statements etc... Will the lawyers charge the same price over the years or is it costing more and more money every year to let them perform these services? So many variables you don't control. I should say "you dont want to control". If it is a businesswith real trading then you should be fine. But if it is not, is it worth all that trouble?

Finding Thais who are willing to invest their money in your business (not a real money making business) is impossible. Nobody invests money in a company like that. Only when the money is borrowed or "given" to them will they become shareholders. How do they declare where the money suddenly come from? Ok it is not asked at the moment, will it be asked tomorrow? Will you charge interest? Will they ever pay you back?

A lot of things have to be made up. And all of these things have to be correctly registered and administered for many years to come.

Do people realise this? My guess is no, because all these details are not given to you. You will have to find them out yourself.

My own view is that a company purchase can be safe (as much as the word safe can be applied to anything in life) as long as the shareholding is set up according to the law. I accept that this will mean knowing Thai nationals that can become "bona fide" shareholders and that this may not be possible for some.

Sure it can be done. But how many of the current businesses are setup that way. I have to guess only a few. Time will tell.

Another point is that if you setup a company it also should state its "mission". Profit has to be made, and no renting a house is not enough. Also there have to be shareholder meetings with agendas, bookkeeping, and taxes to be paid on the profit that has been made. Publications of your balance sheets. How many of those obligations are done by the lawyers by just "creating" some invoices and profit. You have a change all this will go unnoticed, but will it go unnoticed all the years you will live in the house? And how do you know the lawyers do a good job and not do the same with all the companies that they created for this purpose. Like standard meeting notations, often used invoices, proft and loss statements etc... Will the lawyers charge the same price over the years or is it costing more and more money every year to let them perform these services? So many variables you don't control. I should say "you dont want to control". If it is a businesswith real trading then you should be fine. But if it is not, is it worth all that trouble?

Finding Thais who are willing to invest their money in your business (not a real money making business) is impossible. Nobody invests money in a company like that. Only when the money is borrowed or "given" to them will they become shareholders. How do they declare where the money suddenly come from? Ok it is not asked at the moment, will it be asked tomorrow? Will you charge interest? Will they ever pay you back?

A lot of things have to be made up. And all of these things have to be correctly registered and administered for many years to come.

Do people realise this? My guess is no, because all these details are not given to you. You will have to find them out yourself.

All of the things you have mentioned need to be addressed, but they are certainly not impossible. As I said, to fully comply with the law the shareholders must be genuine. Of course many company purchases have used nominees. This may or may not be an issue for the future. I guess some may still see the risk as worthwhile. You made a valid point earlier that, if this clampdown ever does happen, the Thai authorities will not seize the land, but will require it to be sold. The subsequent effect of a mass selling of all company owned property would completely collapse the housing market in Thailand and the selling price of the land would plummet.

But bearing in mind that senior government figures are amongst the biggest land owners, it is difficult to see that they would wish this to happen.

There is risk in everything in life and certainly, a company purchase may not be right for someone who has is putting everything they have into it. But for many it is a worthwhile alternative to renting, even knowing the risks involved. The prices I quoted were taken from comparable properties on a well known website. I accept that there are cheap places to rent, but some of these can be dreadful places to live. There are also places that rent close to 100,000 an month. On the purchase side, I built a large 4 bedroom house on 3 rai for just over a million a few years ago. I was trying to find a balanced comparison, but accept that this is an unscientific process.

Be interested to see Dragonman's opinion of this website.

So what is the hook? they dont appear to be selling anything.

Be interested to see Dragonman's opinion of this website.

So what is the hook? they dont appear to be selling anything.

I would love to know what the hook is. Someone has put a lot of effort into a site that appears to have the intention of dissuading foreigners from buying land in Samui. There has got to be a very interesting background to that!

Don't know Dragonman. Does he have some special interest in this type of thing?

They do sell contracts on that site.

I guess if you are a lawfirm who is doing honest work, you probably get fed up with all the bad news about laywers. Especially those on Samui at the moment as they are making the news big time.

It is referencing Samui and some of the unique situations there.

Like condominiums that are not really condominiums.

But really it is valid for whole Thailand.

Maybe a ThailandForSale.com is in the making.

I agree with Khun Jean on this one. Thai law is very clear re 'farang' ownership of land. With very few (expensive) exceptions, such as 40 million baht investment, it is not possible nor legal.

Freehold ownership of a condo can be possible (the 49% of a condo building route etc). This seems to be to be the least risky way of genuinely owning a property in Thailand.

Renting a property on a 30+30+30 yeat lease is illegal. Only the first 30 years are enforceable. I understand that when the 1st 30 years are up, the owner of the property/land is not legally obligated to renew the lease.

As for 'owning' a property and land via the company route, no matter how you set up the company, and no matter how you use preference shares or whatever, if the aim is to give a farang shareholder 'control' over that property and land, then it's illegal under Thai law. Simple as that. Thai law is very clear on that point.

I stopped being interested in 'owning' land in Thailand when I realised that however you tried to achieve this as a non-Thai, you were skating on thin ice. So now I rent land, fully legally, and base any business activities that I develop on that land on being able to achieve a worthwhile return on my investment within the lease period.

Of course, many people will continue to 'buy' land and use all manner of company structures to claim control/ownership over that land. And many people will sell their land in the future and make a large profit. But if you are not prepared to run the risk - however small - that your deceit will catch up with you, then stick to land rental instead.

Simon

Maybe its just me, but does anybody else think that khun Jean comes across as a complete bell end?

spot on mate

Thank you for keeping the topic current.

I stopped being interested in 'owning' land in Thailand when I realised that however you tried to achieve this as a non-Thai, you were skating on thin ice. So now I rent land, fully legally, and base any business activities that I develop on that land on being able to achieve a worthwhile return on my investment within the lease period.

There is a lot for rent, even for acceptable prices. Just skip the realestate agents and drive around. A fact missed by many.

Prices are a lot cheaper without the huge markups. And the feeling amongst many Thai who decided not to list their land with a broker is that they don't want people making advantage of the situation. A certain broker who runs around with a suitcase full of money comes to mind. Practically demanding to buy the land for a low price and shoving the cah money under their noses intimidating the h_ell out of the people, and selling it a few days later for double or triple the price.

And loophole, your nick says enough to not take you serious. And elaborate a little why it is spot on. Other views are interesting but back them up with some real information. A 3 word comment does not say much against the information i gave.

The site samui for sale is a must read for all farangs!!!

I dont know who is behind it an it does not realy matter.

This is the only web site that has genuine information.

It clearly lays out the law and the risks in any type of land deal.

why is the discussion of what the motivation of those behind this site so important. the information is true.

They have done a great service to anyone who realy wants to understand the law.

How many times have you heard the Phrase. "but my lawyer told me that everything was in order."

The fact that you have a lawyer does not allow you to disregard the truth. or the law!!

Your lawyer is at the end of the day a service provider and has to be checked. as you would any service granted.

If you know the law then you can adress the issues and ask your lawyer to ptovide you with proper legal advice and actions that secure your investment.

But the Real estate lawyers dont want you to know. They like to handdle the the deep pocket Trusting Farrand that would do as he is told. sign what needs to be signed and pay them as quickly as possilbe.

If you have any doubts, then confront your lawyer with the facts of the web site and see his reaction...You will probebly get the confused I dont know look, followed by a squirming around, followed by complete denial,and finnished of by "dont worry about it.. its the way in thailand."

(sort of what happens when you catch a thai girl in a fraud)

If you presist and demand proper written answers you will get a very cold shoulder from the lawyer or a complete distragard of your request, in hope that in time you understand that you will never get an answer about your questions.

I assume that when the sh.. hits the fan all the "professional lawyers who made a hip of cash will suddenly disapear. (they will be very buisy, visiting sick relatives, taking care of some very urgent family matters, not feeling well, ... choose any of the above) Then those who found a bargin price local lawyer in Samui will need to look for a profesional Law firm in Bangkok to littigate for them.