British police arrive in Thailand to observe Koh Tao murder probe

[kaobang]

http://www.thephuketnews.com/uk-police-arrive-to-observe-koh-tao-murder-investigation-49304.php

more on the bangkok post website and a pic of the british police "on the crime scene"..

i thought the crime scene was a part of the beach with many rocks tho..

Edited October 25, 2014 by kaobang
Added context.

[lostmebike]

Meanwhile Pol Colonel Apichart Boonsrirote, acting Surat Thani police commander, said he would propose setting up a police station on Koh Tao to provide more security for tourists on the island.

If approved, the new station could be established in the fiscal year that started this month.

He added that more police had been deployed to Koh Tao to bolster the island's seven-strong contingent, as well as vehicles and support equipment to strengthen security there.

One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry! It doesn't matter many coppers there are if they are all corrupt and totally inept.

Security for tourists .. making all the right noises now aren't we?

Maybe you missed what you posted.

No full police station on the island.

7 officers.

And people suggest such dire things.... Safe house... ETC

Do you think the proposed police station would be 'safe' for tourists?

Would it protect tourists from corrupt coppers, 'poo yais' and their off spring?

[boomerangutang]

Rather than assume the kid is going to flee, His passport number has to be on file, so wherever he tries to go,

he is going to set off that red bell above the booth, and wllll he held before entry. so interpol can go have a chat with him

If a rich punk wants to flee Thailand, it's not hard to do.

Chalerm's youngest son (another rich spoiled punk), when running from authorities after shooting a cop with a dozen witnesses .....first took shelter with a Thai general for a couple days, then easily slipped across the border to Cambodia. His father (and other family members) kept saying they had no idea where he was, but of course they were all lying.

another: The rich and spoiled punk son of one of the richest men in Thailand killed a cop with his car, then slipped off to Singapore. Did any authorities delay him? Does the pope use a pay-toilet?

If Nomsod wants to run and hide, it's as easy as slicing cucumbers. His rich mafia-like daddy would spare no expense or bribe in facilitating that.

[boomerangutang]

Thai authorities could put police stations every 200 meters on Ko Tao, but that's not going to improve safety. Moral decency needs to come from within. It's not instilled by bunches of uniformed people stationed all around. The moral decadence and criminal atmosphere which permeates the AC bar-like places on Ko Tao won't be ameliorated by a whole squadron of cops. Morality starts to get shaped in infancy. If a person has mafia-like crappy influences as a child, then expect a mafia-like criminal character to develop as that person ages. Corruption in, corruption out.

[15Peter20]

I'm not sure if this is correct. CSI La seems to be saying that Nomsod has been arrested and that Hannah was shot in the head.

Interesting. And may I say finally this had been released then.

CSI LA has posted the claims and as I have difficulty with the site I can't find it now..it was mentioned that it was on the scottish news. I looked there and nothing. I also went to the Scotland Yard site and nothing.

Someone suggested it may have been a theory from a Thai poster..the gun bothers me a little. Recently the police showed a gun supposedly found in a Myanmars hut.

From what I could read on CSI, majority are saying the shooting sounds more plausible and would explain blood and (can't say it) on the rocks.

If you go to timeline on the site you may see it tucked away.

Didn't you see the crime scene photos? The wound to Hannah's head could not have been made by any kind of bullet in my opinion. But easy to see how a hoe could have done it.

[Number 3]

I'm not sure if this is correct. CSI La seems to be saying that Nomsod has been arrested and that Hannah was shot in the head.

Interesting. And may I say finally this had been released then.

CSI LA has posted the claims and as I have difficulty with the site I can't find it now..it was mentioned that it was on the scottish news. I looked there and nothing. I also went to the Scotland Yard site and nothing.

Someone suggested it may have been a theory from a Thai poster..the gun bothers me a little. Recently the police showed a gun supposedly found in a Myanmars hut.

From what I could read on CSI, majority are saying the shooting sounds more plausible and would explain blood and (can't say it) on the rocks.

If you go to timeline on the site you may see it tucked away.

Didn't you see the crime scene photos? The wound to Hannah's head could not have been made by any kind of bullet in my opinion. But easy to see how a hoe could have done it.

Saw the photos in far too much detail I'm afraid mate.

Let me astutely say that often what appears to be the death blows are the blows that are used to cover something more.

It was an early poster that had me intrigued by the cover up theory, that had me study. I am waiting to hear more on this theory but ,personal perception only, leads me to think there's more to such brutality. No hard feelings if I am proved an idjit however and the early poster also went quiet after her announcement. The goal is truth either way

[retsdon]

The Koh Tao Murders... Simply follow the Electronic Trails...

Perhaps there is great value in what the British cops could follow and observer - - This is what a well-connected and computer savvy British cop should "follow and observe" in Thailand - -

Start with the obvious: The murders were perhaps committed by a well-connected Thai. That is what everyone suspects, so why not start there? Doesn't it appear that the village headman was too keen on avoiding a police investigation of his extended family and friends? To what lengths did he go to deflect an honest inquiry?

It has only been about 6-weeks since the young British couple were slain by unknown attackers. The DNA samples may have been compromised, but the electronic trails are still very warm.

Thai people (..wealthy and powerful and average..) all love their mobile phones and their ATM cards. The British investigators should follow the electronic trails, in order to establish probable or circumstantial evidence.

Even if the Koh Tao village headman and his family have all changed their mobile phone numbers, and opened new bank accounts, it doesn't matter. The local phone company computers retain all SMS text messages, and all cell tower connection data for 90-days. (This is true for DTAC, AIS, etc.) The Thai banking and ATM and CDM data is essentially retained "forever".

The British investigator needs only a starting point. He should start by determining this - -

1. What mobile phone number(s) were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family and friends and cop buddies on or about 15-Sept-2014? Start with even just one verified phone number. Follow the connections. Read the text messages. You don't need triangulation data. Just a connection record with one single tower will show where in Thailand was any given mobile on any given day. The text messages, together with the approximate location of the Thai suspects, and the spider's web circle of connections will surely raise a few eyebrows. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would establish locations and extract electronic information. (By the way, I am not referring to GPS/GPRS data from 3G/4G mobiles. All mobiles, even old 2G phones, leave connection data on the DTAC/AIS computers. Look at the signal strength bar graph on any Thai mobile. When switched on, a mobile phone is continually "connected" to at least one cell tower. Part of the 90-day data retention record is simply the tower registration number, to which that mobile phone is connected at any given time.) (Also, please realize that when you "erase" SMS text messages from your mobile, you have only erased the local copy. The server copy still has a 90-day shelf life...)

2. What bank accounts were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family, friends, mia nois, girlfriends, (and cop buddies) on or about 15-Sept-2014? Follow the ATM withdrawals and the CDM redeposits from that day forward. Follow the account-to-account transfers. Follow the money trails. Ask questions. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would investigate "suspicious behavior" in terms of who was paying off whom from 15-Sept forward...

3. Which cops, translators and other persons of interest were involved with the young Burmese boys in the "Safe House" on Koh Tao? What mobile phone numbers were those cops using on the day that the confessions were "extracted" from the Burmese suspects? The British police should follow the connections from those cops' mobile phones to bigger fish up the food chain. Wouldn't you like to read those Thai cop mobile phone text messages from that day?

It wouldn't take Agent 007 to connect the dots on all of the above, now would it? The media reports that 7 or 8 British cops are here in Thailand looking into the murders. All you need is one computer savvy British cop, and one "honest" Thai translator, and a court order allowing unfettered access to all electronic phone and banking records still stored on local servers.

It ain't rocket science...

JD

Thanks for this very informed and informative post. A breath of fresh air. I would be curious to know if thr RTP investigators were actually aware of the data available to them were they to have followed this line from day one. The impression I've had of the RTP in this case is that their methodology isn't exactly cutting edge - and it really wouldn't surprise me if they had absolutely no idea of this mine of information available to them.

Future developments will be interesting to say the least. If this data is out there, then there is no legitimate excuse for it not to be mined - if only for the purpose of eliminating potential suspects or people currently being accused on social media.

[Number 3]

The Koh Tao Murders... Simply follow the Electronic Trails...

Perhaps there is great value in what the British cops could follow and observer - - This is what a well-connected and computer savvy British cop should "follow and observe" in Thailand - -

Start with the obvious: The murders were perhaps committed by a well-connected Thai. That is what everyone suspects, so why not start there? Doesn't it appear that the village headman was too keen on avoiding a police investigation of his extended family and friends? To what lengths did he go to deflect an honest inquiry?

It has only been about 6-weeks since the young British couple were slain by unknown attackers. The DNA samples may have been compromised, but the electronic trails are still very warm.

Thai people (..wealthy and powerful and average..) all love their mobile phones and their ATM cards. The British investigators should follow the electronic trails, in order to establish probable or circumstantial evidence.

Even if the Koh Tao village headman and his family have all changed their mobile phone numbers, and opened new bank accounts, it doesn't matter. The local phone company computers retain all SMS text messages, and all cell tower connection data for 90-days. (This is true for DTAC, AIS, etc.) The Thai banking and ATM and CDM data is essentially retained "forever".

The British investigator needs only a starting point. He should start by determining this - -

1. What mobile phone number(s) were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family and friends and cop buddies on or about 15-Sept-2014? Start with even just one verified phone number. Follow the connections. Read the text messages. You don't need triangulation data. Just a connection record with one single tower will show where in Thailand was any given mobile on any given day. The text messages, together with the approximate location of the Thai suspects, and the spider's web circle of connections will surely raise a few eyebrows. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would establish locations and extract electronic information. (By the way, I am not referring to GPS/GPRS data from 3G/4G mobiles. All mobiles, even old 2G phones, leave connection data on the DTAC/AIS computers. Look at the signal strength bar graph on any Thai mobile. When switched on, a mobile phone is continually "connected" to at least one cell tower. Part of the 90-day data retention record is simply the tower registration number, to which that mobile phone is connected at any given time.) (Also, please realize that when you "erase" SMS text messages from your mobile, you have only erased the local copy. The server copy still has a 90-day shelf life...)

2. What bank accounts were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family, friends, mia nois, girlfriends, (and cop buddies) on or about 15-Sept-2014? Follow the ATM withdrawals and the CDM redeposits from that day forward. Follow the account-to-account transfers. Follow the money trails. Ask questions. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would investigate "suspicious behavior" in terms of who was paying off whom from 15-Sept forward...

3. Which cops, translators and other persons of interest were involved with the young Burmese boys in the "Safe House" on Koh Tao? What mobile phone numbers were those cops using on the day that the confessions were "extracted" from the Burmese suspects? The British police should follow the connections from those cops' mobile phones to bigger fish up the food chain. Wouldn't you like to read those Thai cop mobile phone text messages from that day?

It wouldn't take Agent 007 to connect the dots on all of the above, now would it? The media reports that 7 or 8 British cops are here in Thailand looking into the murders. All you need is one computer savvy British cop, and one "honest" Thai translator, and a court order allowing unfettered access to all electronic phone and banking records still stored on local servers.

It ain't rocket science...

JD

Thanks for this very informed and informative post. A breath of fresh air. I would be curious to know if thr RTP investigators were actually aware of the data available to them were they to have followed this line from day one. The impression I've had of the RTP in this case is that their methodology isn't exactly cutting edge - and it really wouldn't surprise me if they had absolutely no idea of this mine of information available to them.

Future developments will be interesting to say the least. If this data is out there, then there is no legitimate excuse for it not to be mined - if only for the purpose of eliminating potential suspects or people currently being accused on social media.

The exercises of information gathering are used when one WANTS to catch the crooks.

When one does not wish to they pull up the first lot of Burmese guys and bury them in a safe house and us in ridiculous misleading information to busy ourselves with.

[traviss]

I just spoke this morning with a friend of mine in USA. He is a tropical horticulturist who has visited Thailand for 20+ years working with university persons and Thai government officials. He was way up on the past news of floods and coups as he has visited Thailand during such troubled times. He watches every day the US version of BBC and NHK Nightly news on free US public television.

I asked him what he knew about the recent murders on Koh Tao. He said: Nothing ... the murders have not been mentioned on those 2 broadcasts.

And that makes you,the army,the RTP,Nomsod and Mon happy

but your happiness will not last forever

Happy? I just noted that this case has not received the universal attention that everyone on here presumes. I was rather surprised that my friend -- who will be her next summer for a world-wide horticultural conference --had not heard of it and that it is not covered in the 30 minute BBC evening newscast.

Someday this case is going to be over ... then what'll you do?

It has been covered about a dozen times on the BBC USA.

Maybe your friend was out polishing his tractor, or comforting Miss Daisy?

JL- I spoke with my neighbor in the USA. He is a garbage man, works with government officials, and his wife is a door greeter at Walmart. Neither has ever visited Thailand or University. They were way down on the notification list regarding the terrible flood situation and they honestly believe a coups is where chickens are kept. They also watch the US version of news and play a lot of XBOX games.

I asked him what he knew of the case; He said "as much as many" as they read the newspaper and online publications. Dennis F is correct about BBC USA, along with publications from New York Times, Denver Post, LA Times and a slew of small town papers.

[retsdon]

The Koh Tao Murders... Simply follow the Electronic Trails...

Perhaps there is great value in what the British cops could follow and observer - - This is what a well-connected and computer savvy British cop should "follow and observe" in Thailand - -

Start with the obvious: The murders were perhaps committed by a well-connected Thai. That is what everyone suspects, so why not start there? Doesn't it appear that the village headman was too keen on avoiding a police investigation of his extended family and friends? To what lengths did he go to deflect an honest inquiry?

It has only been about 6-weeks since the young British couple were slain by unknown attackers. The DNA samples may have been compromised, but the electronic trails are still very warm.

Thai people (..wealthy and powerful and average..) all love their mobile phones and their ATM cards. The British investigators should follow the electronic trails, in order to establish probable or circumstantial evidence.

Even if the Koh Tao village headman and his family have all changed their mobile phone numbers, and opened new bank accounts, it doesn't matter. The local phone company computers retain all SMS text messages, and all cell tower connection data for 90-days. (This is true for DTAC, AIS, etc.) The Thai banking and ATM and CDM data is essentially retained "forever".

The British investigator needs only a starting point. He should start by determining this - -

1. What mobile phone number(s) were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family and friends and cop buddies on or about 15-Sept-2014? Start with even just one verified phone number. Follow the connections. Read the text messages. You don't need triangulation data. Just a connection record with one single tower will show where in Thailand was any given mobile on any given day. The text messages, together with the approximate location of the Thai suspects, and the spider's web circle of connections will surely raise a few eyebrows. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would establish locations and extract electronic information. (By the way, I am not referring to GPS/GPRS data from 3G/4G mobiles. All mobiles, even old 2G phones, leave connection data on the DTAC/AIS computers. Look at the signal strength bar graph on any Thai mobile. When switched on, a mobile phone is continually "connected" to at least one cell tower. Part of the 90-day data retention record is simply the tower registration number, to which that mobile phone is connected at any given time.) (Also, please realize that when you "erase" SMS text messages from your mobile, you have only erased the local copy. The server copy still has a 90-day shelf life...)

2. What bank accounts were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family, friends, mia nois, girlfriends, (and cop buddies) on or about 15-Sept-2014? Follow the ATM withdrawals and the CDM redeposits from that day forward. Follow the account-to-account transfers. Follow the money trails. Ask questions. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would investigate "suspicious behavior" in terms of who was paying off whom from 15-Sept forward...

3. Which cops, translators and other persons of interest were involved with the young Burmese boys in the "Safe House" on Koh Tao? What mobile phone numbers were those cops using on the day that the confessions were "extracted" from the Burmese suspects? The British police should follow the connections from those cops' mobile phones to bigger fish up the food chain. Wouldn't you like to read those Thai cop mobile phone text messages from that day?

It wouldn't take Agent 007 to connect the dots on all of the above, now would it? The media reports that 7 or 8 British cops are here in Thailand looking into the murders. All you need is one computer savvy British cop, and one "honest" Thai translator, and a court order allowing unfettered access to all electronic phone and banking records still stored on local servers.

It ain't rocket science...

JD

Thanks for this very informed and informative post. A breath of fresh air. I would be curious to know if thr RTP investigators were actually aware of the data available to them were they to have followed this line from day one. The impression I've had of the RTP in this case is that their methodology isn't exactly cutting edge - and it really wouldn't surprise me if they had absolutely no idea of this mine of information available to them.

Future developments will be interesting to say the least. If this data is out there, then there is no legitimate excuse for it not to be mined - if only for the purpose of eliminating potential suspects or people currently being accused on social media.

The exercises of information gathering are used when one WANTS to catch the crooks.

When one does not wish to they pull up the first lot of Burmese guys and bury them in a safe house and us in ridiculous misleading information to busy ourselves with.

'Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by straightfoward stupidity' - I can't remember who to attribute the quote to, but it's a good one. If the RTP DID know all this info was out there but deliberately chose to ignore it, then they'd be laying themselves open to a terrible public pasting.

No, the investigation of this affair has been reminiscent of one of those cases from the Deep South circa the 1940s or 50s. A horrific murder shocks the population. Under massive pressure to close the case, the local hick cops arrest a convenient black man, bash him into a signed confession, and the local courts hang him. Case closed. Far more convenient than potentially unearthing a can of worms and ruining the reputation of a good family - because the cops know that the slightest flaw in their case against a bigwig will be exploited to the max. And their careers will be toast if there is an acquittal. So CYA says hang the poor nigger.

It might well be that the RTA haven't ever been in a conspiracy to protect a local bigwig. It's possible that they just didn't trust that they could make a case against anyone at all that would be absolutely watertight if it came under the most rigorous scrutiny that money could buy. So, under under enormous pressure for some kind of result, they went down the old-fashioned route. However, the electronic evidence trail could well have provided them with the material to absolutely seal their case. But they weren't sufficiently educated to know about it.

All speculation of course....

[tattoodrob]

I dont understand why some people think the Uk cops will help clear it......they will only ever get info that thai cops want them to have and not allowed to have real info on phones/sms/bank accounts of real killers or there relatives etc..... everyone knows who done it from the Islanders to Thai cops involved,they already have all the up to date technology to catch the real killers and were going to do that until they were offered a decent sum to change info and look for scapegoeats hence the Burma guys on cctv look like they can be used as scapegoats. I have seen many other big crimes solved very quickly in Thailand when they want to and especially if no one with any big money or influence involved so they knew who did it within first or second day then wasted time after that as to see if money coming was enough and if higher up accepted that and everything can be washed over which it was so then after that it cannot be changed EVER as too many would lose face so yes the UK cops can come over and see the matched DNA(bullshit) results and a bit of cctv showing these guys,they will never see real DNA or full CCTV with real culprits as that has already been paid to be deleted.....there are probably 3 or more people involved in the actual crime and many more who know this info already but nobody now can actually say this as much evidence destroyed as thats what they have paid some millions for already...no one is going to get access to the bank accounts especially UK cops or any mobile text messages or any real info that will show the real culprits and so UK will agree that looks like Burma did it as thats all they allowed to see and even if they think is not them then they cant say that anyway as no evidence so they have to go along with the Thai cops........and high ups know that everything is covered enough and that UK cannot really investigate and they already told tham they cannot investigate but can over see the evidence that Thai cops want show them, they cant make fuss or ask for other possible real evidence as thai cops will tell them that yes we looked at everything and found nothing on anyone else..UK or Burma cannot access this info themselves so nothing will change and Burma kids will go down and maybe they told already just shut up now and they will be let out in 6 months anyway or if they cause problems then will be threatened so they have choice and looks like they choose to say tortured which of course they were as this is standard MO to sign anything.

sorry but thats the way it is and will never change..money is number 1 whether Cops or Army which is why they all multi millionaires even there real pay is peanuts,Thai know this long time and farang either believe it or live in hope/dreams that real truth will come out just because complaining now......thai cops,army,officials dont really care anyone complain as is up to them and no one can really touch them,it will just mean the KT family will have to pay them more now as has gone bigger,they probably happy its gone global as now fees trebled or more to stick with story of they innocent but im telling you there is NO chance of real culprits being caught now as too much face to be lost even everybody know is a cover up.

Goodnight and just boycott KT and Thailand if possible then maybe next time they will say cannot cover up a tragic murder but this time its not going to change.

[PaPiPuPePo]

And anyone who thinks the British police are beyond reproach to corruption and political influence must not live in the real world. In many cases particularly involving demonstrations and protests they have been caught withholding information which vindicated the accused, or simply appeared to have lied as this week a judge accused a senior policeman of doing over a student protest.

OK, the "I trust the Thai police more" comment wasn't quite reply-worthy, but here your whole post reeks of a desperate attempt to make irrelevant aspersions and draw completely absurd "analogies." The Brit cops they sent, even if they were anything close to your description, have no interest in exonerating the Burmese guys, and needless to say (or not, it appears) would never try doing so in the face of incriminating evidence.

Their agenda is to get to the bottom of this, whether it agrees or not witth the Thai police. If anything, not that it would be a factor at all, it would make more sense to not have a row with Thailand vs. Myanmar. And yet….I suspect strongly they will do as some people here have described and methodically work their way to the facts of the case if that is even remotely possible.

Edited October 25, 2014 by MJP
Baiting bit removed.

[PaPiPuPePo]

The British police may have been on occasion incompetent , corrupt and subject to political pressure but , and this is the point , the RTP are less professional in all respects by a huge margin. I doubt that any police force in the world has a reputation to equal the Brits so time to cut out the bullxxxx .

Agreed, I've lived in the UK for over 30 years and more recently in Thailand for 10, I know which police force I would rather deal with if this had happened to any of my children! So all this bickering is nonsense and childish when there is such a serious matter at hand

It's not bickering, it's someone naive feeding a disruptive troll.

Or, maybe I'm mistaken. It's possible that JSCM is completely right, the Thai police force is more professional than the British one. It appears not to be the experience of a number of people right here on this forum, who've lived, like you, in both places for, not years, but decades, but--he's told us he has a degree in criminology and long experience in the security business, and that must be true, so who are mere civilians to say otherwise in the face of that unquestionable expertise?

Just writing that out makes me realise I should retract all my prior statements contradicting our newest expert in residence. I stand corrected, please continue your tuition.

[PaPiPuPePo]

I believe the Thais will hunny trap them, unless females have been sent, and then black mail them the shut the up about anything dodgy

Or 'boys' the UK Police are 'very diverse' I am sure Stalwarts of British justice would not fall for such a thing as a Honey trap at all, wooooh I just remembered that British MP just did so maybe we're in trouble after all.

You are really coming across as pretty pathetic, both of you.

japsportscarmad probably has too many speeding fines in his baby Nissan?

He sounds about 16, so I really wonder about his so-called bona fides. Seems like someone with little sense of propriety (or wit), or a shill. Or maybe just trying to get to 100 posts before his birthday.

Edited October 25, 2014 by PaPiPuPePo

[japsportscarmad]

In fairness to the Thai police I have never had an issue and have never been asked for a bribe or even had it suggested. In fact I have been surprised how courteous they have been and have always co-operated in anything we have needed. However, I have also never been accused of a crime. I am sure there are good and bad in all areas of life including the police, but my experience of the Thai Police had always been positive.

No one really likes the police.

They get damned by the PC / Liberal do-gooder brigade, and the law and order hang'em high lot too. They either do to little or too much.

You have not been a member of this site long, since July. Don't know how long you've been here. But, because you personally have not had a problem with the RTP, or been asked for bribes, yet, doesn't mean anything. Simply your experience in a time period.

Look up the actual performance statistics of the various British police forces. But, anyone can cherry pick cases to make a point. No police force is perfect. Some officers are no doubt corrupt, some have recently been punished for their actions, deservedly so, and some will be inept.

British police are underpaid and underfunded. Training, moral and operational efficiency must be affected. Passing the tests to become a police officer are not easy. But you don't have to pay to pass, then buy your equipment from your superior officer, then buy your rank and position, then buy promotion - all with a tiny salary that has to be supplemented by other means.

If you believe the RTP are generally equal to or anywhere close to the ability, skills and professionalism of the UK police, then you should do some more research.

Yes your right I only joined the site in July but have lived/visited/Worked in Thailand for over 30 years, so you can't judge my experience of the Police or Thailand experiences on my site membership.

We have a business in Thailand and England which has to deal with the Police on occasion and to be honest the RTP are easier to deal with than the Met who seem inadequate in most of our dealings. The RTP whilst not ideal which is true at least will make a decision and try to help from our experience at least. I've also been stopped on quiet a few road blocks by the RTP over the years and by the traffic police although in Chaingmai at least as soon as the window goes down and they see a Farang they usually seem just wave me through, unless there's something glaring I once had my licence retained as the tax on the pick up had run out and we had just flown back after been away, but when I went to the Police station I paid the fine and got it back with my receipt. However, I've never had to bribe or been asked for one. Maybe I am lucky but my experience is as I say so you have to take as you find.

Unfortunately, corruption/ Framing of suspects in the UK Police is still going on and it's not just the odd case here and there. In fact when I was younger the word of a Police officer in court was universally accepted and you never wanted to be up against one, sadly even the judiciary seem to cast doubt on the truthfulness now and many occasions are reported in the press.

From my experience in other countries the lower the pay and conditions the police are employed under the more chance of corruption. Furthermore the salary of the UK Police is now quiet low compared in relative terms to what it was in the past so it is likely that the quality is also down, as to the tests to join the bar is much lower than it was. The plus point of the UK Police is at least their uniforms are not two sizes too small :-)

[DennisF]

Interesting quote:

Mr Surapong said prosecutors may request another investigation by a new team if they find too many holes in the current police probe. -

[japsportscarmad]

The British police may have been on occasion incompetent , corrupt and subject to political pressure but , and this is the point , the RTP are less professional in all respects by a huge margin. I doubt that any police force in the world has a reputation to equal the Brits so time to cut out the bullxxxx .

Agreed, I've lived in the UK for over 30 years and more recently in Thailand for 10, I know which police force I would rather deal with if this had happened to any of my children! So all this bickering is nonsense and childish when there is such a serious matter at hand

It's not bickering, it's someone naive feeding a disruptive troll.

Or, maybe I'm mistaken. It's possible that JSCM is completely right, the Thai police force is more professional than the British one. It appears not to be the experience of a number of people right here on this forum, who've lived, like you, in both places for, not years, but decades, but--he's told us he has a degree in criminology and long experience in the security business, and that must be true, so who are mere civilians to say otherwise in the face of that unquestionable expertise?

Just writing that out makes me realise I should retract all my prior statements contradicting our newest expert in residence. I stand corrected, please continue your tuition.

There's no need to be sarcastic I am not your new "expert in residence" I was just relaying my personal experience. If you e mail me I will happily send you my details and you can easily check my credentials there's little point in lying.

The problem with the forums is that many people exaggerate their amount of "alleged bribe paying" and issues they claim to have had? I am not saying I am an expert on the RTP but following a couple of discussion with friends today none of them could remember ever having to pay a bribe either or having a bad experience so it's not just me is it. When did you last have an issue with the RTP yourself?

The British Police have recently been severely criticised by many over the missing young girl who's body has just been found in London, and their spokes person claimed they missed the body for 4 weeks which was where they had searched as they 'we're not used to carrying out such a big search' and they also missed the alleged murderer who appears to have hung himself in woods they had searched, so it's not just the RTP who appear to screw up. Significantly, the British Police have far greater resources than the RTP so you would expect them to do better in the real world but sadly resource does not seem to equal result.

[SteveFong]

The Koh Tao Murders... Simply follow the Electronic Trails...

Perhaps there is great value in what the British cops could follow and observer - - This is what a well-connected and computer savvy British cop should "follow and observe" in Thailand - -

Start with the obvious: The murders were perhaps committed by a well-connected Thai. That is what everyone suspects, so why not start there? Doesn't it appear that the village headman was too keen on avoiding a police investigation of his extended family and friends? To what lengths did he go to deflect an honest inquiry?

It has only been about 6-weeks since the young British couple were slain by unknown attackers. The DNA samples may have been compromised, but the electronic trails are still very warm.

Thai people (..wealthy and powerful and average..) all love their mobile phones and their ATM cards. The British investigators should follow the electronic trails, in order to establish probable or circumstantial evidence.

Even if the Koh Tao village headman and his family have all changed their mobile phone numbers, and opened new bank accounts, it doesn't matter. The local phone company computers retain all SMS text messages, and all cell tower connection data for 90-days. (This is true for DTAC, AIS, etc.) The Thai banking and ATM and CDM data is essentially retained "forever".

The British investigator needs only a starting point. He should start by determining this - -

1. What mobile phone number(s) were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family and friends and cop buddies on or about 15-Sept-2014? Start with even just one verified phone number. Follow the connections. Read the text messages. You don't need triangulation data. Just a connection record with one single tower will show where in Thailand was any given mobile on any given day. The text messages, together with the approximate location of the Thai suspects, and the spider's web circle of connections will surely raise a few eyebrows. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would establish locations and extract electronic information. (By the way, I am not referring to GPS/GPRS data from 3G/4G mobiles. All mobiles, even old 2G phones, leave connection data on the DTAC/AIS computers. Look at the signal strength bar graph on any Thai mobile. When switched on, a mobile phone is continually "connected" to at least one cell tower. Part of the 90-day data retention record is simply the tower registration number, to which that mobile phone is connected at any given time.) (Also, please realize that when you "erase" SMS text messages from your mobile, you have only erased the local copy. The server copy still has a 90-day shelf life...)

2. What bank accounts were in use by the Koh Tao village headman, his son, and their extended circle of family, friends, mia nois, girlfriends, (and cop buddies) on or about 15-Sept-2014? Follow the ATM withdrawals and the CDM redeposits from that day forward. Follow the account-to-account transfers. Follow the money trails. Ask questions. If we were back in the real world, that is how real police would investigate "suspicious behavior" in terms of who was paying off whom from 15-Sept forward...

3. Which cops, translators and other persons of interest were involved with the young Burmese boys in the "Safe House" on Koh Tao? What mobile phone numbers were those cops using on the day that the confessions were "extracted" from the Burmese suspects? The British police should follow the connections from those cops' mobile phones to bigger fish up the food chain. Wouldn't you like to read those Thai cop mobile phone text messages from that day?

It wouldn't take Agent 007 to connect the dots on all of the above, now would it? The media reports that 7 or 8 British cops are here in Thailand looking into the murders. All you need is one computer savvy British cop, and one "honest" Thai translator, and a court order allowing unfettered access to all electronic phone and banking records still stored on local servers.

It ain't rocket science...

JD

Thanks for this very informed and informative post. A breath of fresh air. I would be curious to know if thr RTP investigators were actually aware of the data available to them were they to have followed this line from day one. The impression I've had of the RTP in this case is that their methodology isn't exactly cutting edge - and it really wouldn't surprise me if they had absolutely no idea of this mine of information available to them.

Future developments will be interesting to say the least. If this data is out there, then there is no legitimate excuse for it not to be mined - if only for the purpose of eliminating potential suspects or people currently being accused on social media.

Would seem a perfect opportunity for Thaskin to call a few buddies in the cell data field, and have them "leak" to the press, some details of phone activity

we don't know who, or what may be working on exposing the current lineup,

if some posters theories are true, there is whole lotta people that want to see this turned way upside down

[lannarebirth]

I think was this case is over, regardless of the outcome, there's going to be a big let down from guys who'll have no case to wax upon when they get up in the morning.

BTW this is what I wrote on 10 OCT 2014. Seems to me nothing much has changed: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/767223-suspects-in-koh-tao-backpacker-murders-retract-confessions-says-official/page-6#entry8513442

I doubt it. If history provides any indication it will not be long before a new case comes along.

[boomerangutang]

Interesting quote:

Mr Surapong said prosecutors may request another investigation by a new team if they find too many holes in the current police probe. -

I'm not sure who Surapong is, but the idea of appointing a new Thai team to investigate doesn't fill me with confidence. Two weeks after the crime, a new boss was appointed from on-high in Bangkok (did the new boss bring in new team members?). A day after the new boss showed up, the Burmese scapegoats were 'interviewed.' A day after that, the farcial reenactment happened.

Thai authorities could assign a new team each week and it may not make much difference. Indeed, each new team may just batten down the frame-up and continue shielding the headman's people. Two basic attributes are missing from Thai detective work:

>>> knowledge and application of detective skills (the long prior post about missing phone trail is just one of many trails Thai cops aren't pursuing).

>>> ability to be objective. It's uncharacteristic for a Thai to be objective about anything. When dealing with people, they always have to know (at least) the social status and nationality. Without knowing those sorts of things, a Thai cannot interact nor do their jobs. If an investigator was objective (in this crime case) he/she would follow the clues to where they lead.

Both those above issues are intrinsically tied to lust for money. In other words, all the Thai inspectors know the village headman (who is connected to the people who should be prime suspects) is rich and willing to pay whatever it takes to shield his family. They also know the Burmese migrants are poor and expendable.

Before hundreds of thousands of posts from social media on this issue, Thai cops thought they could wrap this case up with the Burmese scapegoats. Thai officialdom has come in for a giant wake-up call. Welcome to the 21st century, guys. For future crimes, Thai cops might be a bit less willing to frame-up powerless migrants or hill-tribers. Heck, Thai investigators might even learn some investigative skills and try thinking outside the box.

>>>

[changnaam]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run/

RTP did try and find the killers. They caught some of the group, then money, cover up and a change of police personnel kicked in. Absolutely they can do a good job when they want to, or are not encouraged "not" to do a good job.

Edited October 26, 2014 by changnaam

[bertty]

In fairness to the Thai police I have never had an issue and have never been asked for a bribe or even had it suggested. In fact I have been surprised how courteous they have been and have always co-operated in anything we have needed. However, I have also never been accused of a crime. I am sure there are good and bad in all areas of life including the police, but my experience of the Thai Police had always been positive.

No one really likes the police.

They get damned by the PC / Liberal do-gooder brigade, and the law and order hang'em high lot too. They either do to little or too much.

You have not been a member of this site long, since July. Don't know how long you've been here. But, because you personally have not had a problem with the RTP, or been asked for bribes, yet, doesn't mean anything. Simply your experience in a time period.

Look up the actual performance statistics of the various British police forces. But, anyone can cherry pick cases to make a point. No police force is perfect. Some officers are no doubt corrupt, some have recently been punished for their actions, deservedly so, and some will be inept.

British police are underpaid and underfunded. Training, moral and operational efficiency must be affected. Passing the tests to become a police officer are not easy. But you don't have to pay to pass, then buy your equipment from your superior officer, then buy your rank and position, then buy promotion - all with a tiny salary that has to be supplemented by other means.

If you believe the RTP are generally equal to or anywhere close to the ability, skills and professionalism of the UK police, then you should do some more research.

Yes your right I only joined the site in July but have lived/visited/Worked in Thailand for over 30 years, so you can't judge my experience of the Police or Thailand experiences on my site membership.

We have a business in Thailand and England which has to deal with the Police on occasion and to be honest the RTP are easier to deal with than the Met who seem inadequate in most of our dealings. The RTP whilst not ideal which is true at least will make a decision and try to help from our experience at least. I've also been stopped on quiet a few road blocks by the RTP over the years and by the traffic police although in Chaingmai at least as soon as the window goes down and they see a Farang they usually seem just wave me through, unless there's something glaring I once had my licence retained as the tax on the pick up had run out and we had just flown back after been away, but when I went to the Police station I paid the fine and got it back with my receipt. However, I've never had to bribe or been asked for one. Maybe I am lucky but my experience is as I say so you have to take as you find.

Unfortunately, corruption/ Framing of suspects in the UK Police is still going on and it's not just the odd case here and there. In fact when I was younger the word of a Police officer in court was universally accepted and you never wanted to be up against one, sadly even the judiciary seem to cast doubt on the truthfulness now and many occasions are reported in the press.

From my experience in other countries the lower the pay and conditions the police are employed under the more chance of corruption. Furthermore the salary of the UK Police is now quiet low compared in relative terms to what it was in the past so it is likely that the quality is also down, as to the tests to join the bar is much lower than it was. The plus point of the UK Police is at least their uniforms are not two sizes too small :-)

What is professional about seeing you are a farang, and then waving you thru ?

I do love the way you guys who spent a lot of time (according to you) in court, are not happy with the way the police acted.

The average cop in England earns around 32 thousand pounds a year. Which is better than the average wage, and overtime is on top. Plus the chance of promotion.

Instead of saying corruption and frame ups happen in England give us an example.

Your post is just an anti police post with no truth to it what-so-ever.

[SteveFong]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run/

RTP did try and find the killers. They caught some of the group, then money, cover up and a change of police personnel kicked in. Absolutely they can do a good job when they want to, or are not encouraged "not" to do a good job.

I saw postings here previously, that linked the key people on the island to key people in the power structure in Bangkok,

bringing this right into the heart of the government

and people are wondering why no one is talking?

someone will talk, with protection from the UK detectives,

that's all this is gonna take

[Patsycat]

It doesn't matter if this was on the news in America or not. It got enough coverage in other countries to make it important.

The world does not revolve around America.

[Fat Haggis]

7 policemen on Koh Tao working from a building daily? In my book that would then be called a Police Station!!!

[SteveFong]

It doesn't matter if this was on the news in America or not. It got enough coverage in other countries to make it important.

The world does not revolve around America.

first of all,

anyone who doesn't think this is getting coverage in the US, is wrong.

the one place where I do not see any coverage about Thailand, ever, is in the financial papers, WSJ, etc.,

no coverage about anything financially positive in Thailand and it is noticeably absent to me, because, I am looking,

[traviss]

It doesn't matter if this was on the news in America or not. It got enough coverage in other countries to make it important.

The world does not revolve around America.

first of all,

anyone who doesn't think this is getting coverage in the US, is wrong.

the one place where I do not see any coverage about Thailand, ever, is in the financial papers, WSJ, etc.,

no coverage about anything financially positive in Thailand and it is noticeably absent to me, because, I am looking,

WSJ reports on Thailand quite frequently...

[DennisF]

Latest quotes from the foreign office of the UK, when questioned by a provincial newspaper.

AFAIK this is the first time they have alluded to corruption.

The British government cannot interfere in Thailand’s judicial proceedings, just as other governments are unable to interfere in our own judicial processes

That said, we are very concerned by the allegations of corruption and mistreatment of the suspects and it is very important that whoever committed these murders is brought to justice.

We call for the investigation to be conducted in a fair and transparent way, in line with international standards.

[lewy67]

Some interesting insights into what the FCO is thinking in this article: http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/foreign_commonwealth_office_answer_our_10_questions_on_the_hannah_witheridge_case_1_3820462

■ How confident is the FCO that those responsible for the killings will be brought to justice?

We want to see the perpetrators of this crime brought to justice and we have asked the Thai authorities to keep our Embassy in Bangkok closely informed on their investigation.

The British government cannot interfere in Thailand’s judicial proceedings, just as other governments are unable to interfere in our own judicial processes.

That said, we are very concerned by the allegations of corruption and mistreatment of the suspects and it is very important that whoever committed these murders is brought to justice.

We call for the investigation to be conducted in a fair and transparent way, in line with international standards.

Seems the FCO are providing the BIB and government with enough rope and leaving it up to them as to what they do with it.

[Patsycat]

If i remember rightly - the girl that was raped and murdered on Koh Samui - her family chose that the men were jailed for life instead of the death sentence.

Can the families of Hannah and David choose how their killers are treated? Or has the law changed?

I for one think that death sentence is too lenient. Let them rot for the rest of their lives. Whoever they are.