British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[Manbing]

I thought Mr Miller's phone was found in the possessions of the suspects?

[JohnThailandJohn]

The second full autopsy is unlikely because -- have you ever seen a corpse after an autopsy? Then the body would have been embalmed prior to repatriation via commercial flight.

I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?

Good question. I believe that they sent samples to Canada of blood and other collections as it was planned they would be doing an autopsy of their own. Been a while but if I recall, Thailand needed and and asked for assistance from numerous sources. They may not even have embalmed the bodies and shipped them a special way. I am only guessing and going off vague memory but probably some internet searches would answer.

It is a good question because it is not practice for a commercial airliner to accept a body for transport without embalming. In this particular case they were after DNA and would have scraped all the areas that may have contained DNA. Embalming also requires some other practices that would remove or seriously taint DNA including have to stuff orifices to stop the embalming fluid from leaking out. I would also assume the clean the body as a matter of practice and respect before sending it back.

Like many things in this case (and almost all others at this stage), we don't have many answers but the point is no semen DNA was probably collected in the UK because there may have been none to collect and I don't believe at that time there was the big conspiracy theory going on that police would fake DNA.

The real big point though is if they did get DNA in the UK and it also showed it was the two suspects DNA then I am fairly confident many folks would simply say the Thai authorities planted that DNA in/on the body.

[alanferdi]

They will be polite and any doubts they have will be buried for the greater good of international relations. Just like the Thai police... They know their place in the chain of command.

OH Do they?

What command in the ranks or in the forces?

As a force they are thoroughly disorganised and indiscipline reaks.....its the Army that has brought them to pull up their socks. I would suggest that they be transfered to the revenue office as Tax collectors. Keeping Peace and fighting crime is not their strength without personal gain. Its no secret. look at the many videos on social media that proves my point.

I would suggest that a years training in the army, to follow orders will do the police force good! afterall passing an exam where the most have cheated anyway to get the post, has given the tiger the taste of blood to take it from the public at will and not have a conscience.

I asked a Thai arent they ashamed to take a bribe.... what is a bribe? was the response, explained and I got this answer....Oh a bribe is something that is paid and no one knows about it...thats wrong...but a payment where everyone knows about it is not a bribe....its Tea money.... Oh NICE... In Europe both would be sharing a cell in the same clothes.....and heavily fined.... but that is hard for a Thai to understand I assume, my apologies.

[craigt3365]

Please, no references or links to CSI LA. Please. Reliable news sources only.

[Eirene]

"I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?"

[Quoting myself is easier]

Thanks for all the interesting and concise replies. So the question that remains unknown is....Were they embalmed?

Kind Regards,

~E~

[Rykbanlor]

.... This despite the fact that police early on showed they were not scared or intimidated by the headsman family. Like other early suspects they came out publicly stating the headsman's family were involved but like other earlier suspects, they were ruled out.

I dont know how you come to this conclusion, no DNA tests and intrest dropped and not mentioned again after a change of plod.

At least in part ruled out because the son was not on the island at the time of the murders.

Sorry JTJ, but there is no proof that the Son was not on the Island. When his lawyer came out with the CCTV footage of him at UNI, it was at 9:16am on the 15th september.

There is no proof of his whereabouts on the 14th evening

[MobileContent]

I would have had a little more faith in the British guys independance if:

1. They had not accepted a helicopter-ride to the island with two highranking Thai policeofficers

2. Had stayed on the island for more than a little over an hour

They are never going to be allowed to get anywhere alone, they are politely going to be chaperoned every step of the way.

Two detectives actually came on Friday already. My guess those 2 guys from NSY did some of the field work already. I also wouldn't be surprised if their are more then 5 detectives. The Europeans are not stupid.

[Number 3]

Are . The lawyers not allowed to apply for bail??

Good point but the judge deemed them a flight risk so that bail could not be posted.

[Number 3]

I would have had a little more faith in the British guys independance if:

1. They had not accepted a helicopter-ride to the island with two highranking Thai policeofficers

2. Had stayed on the island for more than a little over an hour

They are never going to be allowed to get anywhere alone, they are politely going to be chaperoned every step of the way.

Two detectives actually came on Friday already. My guess those 2 guys from NSY did some of the field work already. I also wouldn't be surprised if their are more then 5 detectives. The Europeans are not stupid.

A tip off had already been received the day before these blokes arrived.

Yes I do know this as fact.

[binjalin]

The second full autopsy is unlikely because -- have you ever seen a corpse after an autopsy? Then the body would have been embalmed prior to repatriation via commercial flight.

I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?

There have been many posts implying that a prior autopsy and/or embalming makes a subsequent autopsy valueless. The fact is that certain methods of embalming (not all) make extraction of DNA evidence less likely, but never impossible. Most kinds of evidence possible from an initial post-mortem remain capable of being extracted from a subsequent examinations.

After a full autopsy foreign DNA is not likely to be present then adding in embalming makes it extremely unlikely. You can almost always get the corpse' DNA.

what is your explanation of the son not giving his DNA?

[JohnThailandJohn]

.... This despite the fact that police early on showed they were not scared or intimidated by the headsman family. Like other early suspects they came out publicly stating the headsman's family were involved but like other earlier suspects, they were ruled out.

I dont know how you come to this conclusion, no DNA tests and intrest dropped and not mentioned again after a change of plod.

At least in part ruled out because the son was not on the island at the time of the murders.

Sorry JTJ, but there is no proof that the Son was not on the Island. When his lawyer came out with the CCTV footage of him at UNI, it was at 9:16am on the 15th september.

There is no proof of his whereabouts on the 14th evening

You or I have no clue what police confirmed and only they cleared him and stated in the press they had timed stamped video of him at his apartment and documents from the university as well as had a lengthy interrogation with him. This is after they stated to the press they though he was involved in the murders --- clearly not afraid of family. Numerous suspects early on were accused including Burmese, Thai and the Farang and they were cleared.

[jdinasia]

The second full autopsy is unlikely because -- have you ever seen a corpse after an autopsy? Then the body would have been embalmed prior to repatriation via commercial flight.

I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?

There have been many posts implying that a prior autopsy and/or embalming makes a subsequent autopsy valueless. The fact is that certain methods of embalming (not all) make extraction of DNA evidence less likely, but never impossible. Most kinds of evidence possible from an initial post-mortem remain capable of being extracted from a subsequent examinations.

After a full autopsy foreign DNA is not likely to be present then adding in embalming makes it extremely unlikely. You can almost always get the corpse' DNA.

what is your explanation of the son not giving his DNA?

He is not a suspect. He is not in custody. He doesn't have to.

[jdinasia]

I would have had a little more faith in the British guys independance if:

1. They had not accepted a helicopter-ride to the island with two highranking Thai policeofficers

2. Had stayed on the island for more than a little over an hour

They are never going to be allowed to get anywhere alone, they are politely going to be chaperoned every step of the way.

Two detectives actually came on Friday already. My guess those 2 guys from NSY did some of the field work already. I also wouldn't be surprised if their are more then 5 detectives. The Europeans are not stupid.

A tip off had already been received the day before these blokes arrived.

Yes I do know this as fact.

You were with the people getting tipped off?

[oldsailor35]

Has anyone had a chance to talk with the "Noodle stall-Myanmar interpreter" yet or will it never happen.

[Briggsy]

I wonder who their translator is.

[dieseldave1951]

frankly YOU dont know WHAT they have

"British authorities"...

No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

[jdinasia]

"I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?"

[Quoting myself is easier]

Thanks for all the interesting and concise replies. So the question that remains unknown is....Were they embalmed?

Kind Regards,

~E~

If they were Repatriated via commercial flight they were embalmed.

[Rykbanlor]

At least in part ruled out because the son was not on the island at the time of the murders.

Sorry JTJ, but there is no proof that the Son was not on the Island. When his lawyer came out with the CCTV footage of him at UNI, it was at 9:16am on the 15th september.

There is no proof of his whereabouts on the 14th evening

You or I have no clue what police confirmed and only they cleared him and stated in the press they had timed stamped video of him at his apartment and documents from the university as well as had a lengthy interrogation with him. This is after they stated to the press they though he was involved in the murders --- clearly not afraid of family. Numerous suspects early on were accused including Burmese, Thai and the Farang and they were cleared.

I've never claimed the Police are afraid of his family mate.

And you just ignored what i said about the timestamp being 9:16am on the 15th. That is not proof of his whereabouts on the 14th.

[jdinasia]

I wonder who their translator is.

Recent report states that the lawyers are Burmese /Thai

[thailandchilli]

It has been reported this morning that Major General Paween Pongsirin who was the top police officer for Phuket and brought to Kao Tao to lead the arrest of the Burmese suspects has been suddenly removed from post as of today. Apparently to a less demanding role in another province. Another rat leaving the sinking ship, or moved because of other reasons? Report is in the PW

[dieseldave1951]

unless you are either a police chief or the PM

frankly YOU dont know WHAT they have

"British authorities"...

No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

[amse]

I love a parade! toot-toot-toot, boom-boom-boom!

Edited October 27, 2014 by metisdead
Bold font removed again. Please stop using bold font when posting.

[JohnThailandJohn]

At least in part ruled out because the son was not on the island at the time of the murders.

Sorry JTJ, but there is no proof that the Son was not on the Island. When his lawyer came out with the CCTV footage of him at UNI, it was at 9:16am on the 15th september.

There is no proof of his whereabouts on the 14th evening

You or I have no clue what police confirmed and only they cleared him and stated in the press they had timed stamped video of him at his apartment and documents from the university as well as had a lengthy interrogation with him. This is after they stated to the press they though he was involved in the murders --- clearly not afraid of family. Numerous suspects early on were accused including Burmese, Thai and the Farang and they were cleared.

I've never claimed the Police are afraid of his family mate.

And you just ignored what i said about the timestamp being 9:16am on the 15th. That is not proof of his whereabouts on the 14th.

You also said the video was from the university ... obviously you must be privy to the video, so please share the link to the video or where you are getting this information.

Can you share a link to the video?

Edited October 27, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[RigPig]

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not substituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

[JohnThailandJohn]

"I have seen this mentioned a number of times on this forum. Can someone explain how the Quebec coroner was able to perform an autopsy on the Belanger sisters if all bodies are embalmed before repatriation?"

[Quoting myself is easier]

Thanks for all the interesting and concise replies. So the question that remains unknown is....Were they embalmed?

Kind Regards,

~E~

If they were Repatriated via commercial flight they were embalmed.

Correct -- I am not going to go through all of the old links but I could swear Thailand sent them samples of certain tissues. Anyway, here is one link and some quotes that shed some light on how the UK probably received the bodies .... http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/06/22/autopsies-quebec-sisters-thailand_n_1620224.html

Their bodies were embalmed before being transported to Quebec.

The embalming process can create some problems, Jodoin admits. Primarily, embalming consists of disinfecting the body and injecting it with a fluid to keep organs preserved.

"You have to look at each organ, examine the tissues to determine if there are signs of the cause of death, but all depends on the manner in which they proceeded in Thailand," Jodoin said.

Edited October 27, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[JohnThailandJohn]

Sorry JTJ, but there is no proof that the Son was not on the Island. When his lawyer came out with the CCTV footage of him at UNI, it was at 9:16am on the 15th september.

There is no proof of his whereabouts on the 14th evening

You or I have no clue what police confirmed and only they cleared him and stated in the press they had timed stamped video of him at his apartment and documents from the university as well as had a lengthy interrogation with him. This is after they stated to the press they though he was involved in the murders --- clearly not afraid of family. Numerous suspects early on were accused including Burmese, Thai and the Farang and they were cleared.

I've never claimed the Police are afraid of his family mate.

And you just ignored what i said about the timestamp being 9:16am on the 15th. That is not proof of his whereabouts on the 14th.

You also said the video was from the university ... obviously you must be privy to the video, so please share the link to the video or where you are getting this information.

Can you share a link to the video?

Will you be responding or can I stop waiting and wondering if such a time stamped video actually exists?

Edited October 27, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[StealthEnergiser]

You also said the video was from the university ... obviously you must be privy to the video, so please share the link to the video or where you are getting this information.

Can you share a link to the video?

Will you be responding or can I stop waiting and wondering if such a time stamped video actually exists?

How typical of you to be supporting this alleged family member again , Evidence and lies are slowly surfacing you are digraceful and this will be proven later. I feel sorry for the poor families who see your bs posts and who you are supporting.

Why don't you tell the truth and the real reason why you are doing this ?

[Rykbanlor]

I've never claimed the Police are afraid of his family mate.

And you just ignored what i said about the timestamp being 9:16am on the 15th. That is not proof of his whereabouts on the 14th.

You also said the video was from the university ... obviously you must be privy to the video, so please share the link to the video or where you are getting this information.

Can you share a link to the video?

Will you be responding or can I stop waiting and wondering if such a time stamped video actually exists?

I'm looking for it mate. Trying to work at the same time, so give me a minute

[kinmaew]

The Poms wont put up with this pissing around for much longer.

[joebrown]

What you didn't do is counter his argument. All you did was use ad hominem attacks to deflect from the facts presented.

and all you ever do is support, in the most deferential manner, the 'authorities' who continue to bungle and you seem VERY keen to accept it's ok not to give DNA and to want to sweep it all under the 'face saving' carpet

I am not interested in feeding that group of trolls but they work 24 hours a day changing shifts with a clear agenda of trying to stop the truth coming out.

their has been evidence on other sites pointing to some foreigners on koh tao supporting the mafia family and thye have connections in some dive businesses,

It is disgraceful what they doing are but maybe have been threatened or paid i am not sure but their are numerous posters all complaining about this same shiftwork group.

It is probably best to ignore them but they will never stop putting people down and have no respect for the families of these young people .

It would not matter how black something was they would have to disagree and call it white.

You can report someone you think is spreading lies.

I am an hour N of BKK. Have no connection to Koh Tao other than friends there.

Just to get this matter into perspective and for you to understand jdinisia's dismissal of everything other than RTP 'evidence/reports, he not only has freiends on KT, he also has business friends there. Coincidentally, these business friends happen to be Divemasters whom we can assume don't operate as a charity. Draw your own conclusions!