UN political chief criticizes Israel for new settlement plans

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.

Please stay on topic. Continued bickering and off-topic arguing is not permitted.

[Morch]

I am comfortable saying Israel has a right to exist inside the 67 borders.

I don't think any of it is up to you - thankfully.

No it isn't, nor up to you. It is getting more likely that it won't be up to Israel either if they continue along their current path.

Recognition of Palestine as a state, by itself, does not and will not make it reality. Most nations already recognize it as one, and at least to date, this did not change things in any fundamental way. It could be argued that the diplomatic weight of EU countries is such that it adds a whole new dimension into the recognition issue, but this is yet to be seen (in passing, interesting to note that some of those applauding the various EU motions to recognize Palestine as a state, often berate the EU for being useless).

Even assuming more EU countries will recognize Palestine (quite likely), how do these gestures translate into actual change? It is one thing to profess support for Palestine, but would the counties recognizing it be willing to do more than that? So far the large number of countries recognizing Palestine as a state does not seem to effect Israel in a major way. Obviously, the situation is not ideal, but Israel makes do. Would some of the EU countries joining in change that?

Assuming we take outside military intervention off the table (not very likely to happen), we're left with either diplomatic pressure, which is sort of what's been going on for quite a while now, or with some form of economic sanctions. Diplomatic pressure on Israel is effective only if it is applied by the USA (and the current Israeli leadership has demonstrated it is reckless enough to risk even that). Would the USA apply this pressure? Hard to tell.

Economic sanctions are tricky - it could hurt Israel some, depending on scope. But the way Israel's trade is set up, it would be somewhat hard to block all of it, and again - not a thing Israel haven't experienced in the past. It might not have the desired effect on leadership, but might, in the long run, effect the electorate. Will this come about? So far, there aren't many signs of this - the BDS is a joke, and so are most similar attempts. Not sure that we're going to see a major move this way anytime soon. A thing to remember is that whatever happens to Israel's economy usually bears implications for the Palestinians too.

[jdinasia]

Military action against Israel is unlikely I agree. Putting peace keepers, or a significant number of observers could be possible.

More significantly, direct air drops of support into the West Bank and Gaza alongside of sanctions against Israel for continuing settlements could be very helpful in forcing them to the table.

[arjunadawn]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Krauthammer develops his knowledge and opinion from many many years of personal research - his commentary is completely independent of FoxNews... Krauthammer is highly respected by many in the profession - people of all political persuasions ... How about challenging his position and analysis instead of attacking FoxNews? Your post is vacant of any originality or substance ... just a silly distraction as you have nothing of substance to say.

I would like to see evidence that he is highly respected by anyone other than redneck Fox viewers (not saying all Fox viewers are redneck, just referring to that portion of the audience). I find it extremely doubtful.

Reading the piece offered above, he makes the outrageous claim that Hamas only fire rockets at Israel to draw retaliatory fire, so that they have Palestinian bodies to show the world.

Such a preposterous claim needs more than just opinion to back it up.

He makes false and emotive statements such as "Israel...has been warred upon for 66 years..." Whereas the fact is Israel is has been the instigator and the aggressor.

To break down all his fallacy, lies, distortions and sheer blatant unobjective bias would take this post way off topic, but I did need to respond to your groundless claim that the source in question is reputable.

Whenever in doubt radical Islam's intentions, ask them, or listen to what they tell you. The problem with so many today is that they refuse to believe, or hear, what muslims tell us. "Does Hamas use human shields?" Yes, the answer is not only an overwhelming "yes" by observation and patent evidence but Hamas repeatedly tells us they do.

"Does Hamas fire rockets to draw retalitory fire upon the local civilian population?" Yes; Hamas has a policy of inviting Palestinians to love death as much as jews love life. Hamas has a clearly articulated policy of using human shields. Hamas fires rockets from schools. Hamas fires rockets from hospitals. The chain of reasoning is sound- Hamas fires rockets to draw retalitory fire on innocents to use numbers of their own dead as an instrument of policy. I will avoid the obvious moral rebuke that is invited but will point out only the most savage of history's despots have used such cunning. But I am not alone.

When considering anything regarding this region... anything! Context applies, to a point. There are clear moral imperatives for the palestinian cause. There are clear legal imperatives for the Israeli claims. However, the context of unbriddled hatred and evil should always inform our path, not emotions; evidence Hamas policy.

http://honestreporting.com/foreign-journalists-acknowledge-hamas-human-shields-tactics/

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8076.htm

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/08/05/the-medias-role-in-hamas-war-strategy/

http://www.shalomlife.com/news/25803/hamas-admits-to-launching-rockets-from-civilian-areas/

http://blog.godreports.com/2014/08/captured-hamas-warfare-manual-dictates-use-of-human-shields/

http://peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/03/20/481016/-Hamas-Admits-Using-Women-and-Children-as-Human-Shields-w-video

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/after-video-evidence-hamas-finally-admits-having-used-human-shields-by-mistake-4000-times/

http://honestreporting.com/hamas-reveals-media-strategy/

Edited November 16, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Jingthing]

Military action against Israel is unlikely I agree. Putting peace keepers, or a significant number of observers could be possible.

More significantly, direct air drops of support into the West Bank and Gaza alongside of sanctions against Israel for continuing settlements could be very helpful in forcing them to the table.

Air drops into Gaza? I guess it depends on what is dropped. As we all know, if it's construction materials or materials that can be used to build weapons a lot will be used to build new terror tunnels and new weapons to launch future aggressive attacks into Israel.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Military action against Israel is unlikely I agree. Putting peace keepers, or a significant number of observers could be possible.

More significantly, direct air drops of support into the West Bank and Gaza alongside of sanctions against Israel for continuing settlements could be very helpful in forcing them to the table.

Air drops into Gaza? I guess it depends on what is dropped. As we all know, if it's construction materials or materials that can be used to build weapons a lot will be used to build new terror tunnels and new weapons to launch future aggressive attacks into Israel.

Settlements can be used to justify more violence against Palestinians.

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

[Jingthing]

...

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Who are you to advise Israel on technical security matters? Israel is a TINY country. It is surrounded by hostiles on all sides except the sea. It's so easy for people who aren't Israelis to suggest pat "solutions" for Israel ... no risk to their lives, is it?

[jdinasia]

...

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Who are you to advise Israel on technical security matters? Israel is a TINY country. It is surrounded by hostiles on all sides except the sea. It's so easy for people who aren't Israelis to suggest pat "solutions" for Israel ... no risk to their lives, is it?

Why do you avoid the fact that the settlements are an issue?

As for who I am... I am one of the people forced to help pay to defend a country that cannot seem to do it on their own. Billions annually.

[Morch]

Military action against Israel is unlikely I agree. Putting peace keepers, or a significant number of observers could be possible.

More significantly, direct air drops of support into the West Bank and Gaza alongside of sanctions against Israel for continuing settlements could be very helpful in forcing them to the table.

Most time peacekeeping forces are not deployed to areas in which conflagration is imminent, quite the opposite. More than that,

it usually requires the consent of all sides involved. In other words, there first needs to be peace to be kept. The utility of the UN

forces in other situations is doubtful - they are usually ill suited and limited by their charter to take proactive action (Lebanon is

a good example). How exactly would their presence stop rocket fire? Or for that matter, an Israeli attack? Besides, as far as I

can recall, the UN presence is not something which the Palestinian themselves wholly embrace.

Air drops? Are you serious? For one thing, the Palestinians have a border with Egypt even today. If Egypt was to allow it, Gaza

could be supplied without any issues (however, the Egyptians are actually tightening control these days, in response to terrorist

attacks). There is, theoretically at least, also a border with Jordan. Second, there is no way that Israel will allow unchecked air

traffic in its air space, and the Israeli definition of air space is very liberal. Moreover, anyone who's spent some time in this parts

will appreciate that pinpoint air drops would be tricky at best - most people do not realize how near each other many places are.

Other than that, air drops of what? Or rather, for what? This somehow assumes a total Israeli siege and cutting off of Palestine

from the world - not very likely by itself. Even if this was the case, how does one supply a whole country by air drops and who

will shoulder this effort? The coalition fighting IS does not seem to be doing all that great on this front, and what you allude to is

a more complex operation.

These are mostly fantasies, and I doubt that they are seriously considered by any meaningful party.

Economic sanctions, on the other hand, are somewhat more likely - but again, requires countries to put their money where their

mouth is, and not always as effective as some imagine.

I am not implying that Israel cannot be pressured - it sure can. Especially with Netanyahu at the helm. Just saying that getting

hopes of rapid changes or a hasty Israeli about turn is not very likely to happen. The key, almost as usual, is the next USA

administration and its stance on these issues. The level which IS will be contained could play a major factor in this as well.

[Jingthing]

...

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Who are you to advise Israel on technical security matters? Israel is a TINY country. It is surrounded by hostiles on all sides except the sea. It's so easy for people who aren't Israelis to suggest pat "solutions" for Israel ... no risk to their lives, is it?

Why do you avoid the fact that the settlements are an issue?

As for who I am... I am one of the people forced to help pay to defend a country that cannot seem to do it on their own. Billions annually.

Of course settlements are an issue. But not the only issue. Remember Israel gave back Gaza and then they elected terrorist organization Hamas to rule them. If there were no settlements on the west bank, if there NEVER had been any, the majority of Palestinians would still want the Jews out of Israel. They are BRAINWASHED from an early age to hate Jews and are taught nothing about the reason that Jews, people INDIGENOUS to Israel are there in the first place! These problems are deep seated and very complex. Your pat answers, predictable one sided Israel demonization rhetoric doesn't even scratch the surface.

Your personal issues with your personal taxing authorities I think are totally off topic ... why not contact them with your personal complaint?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Military action against Israel is unlikely I agree. Putting peace keepers, or a significant number of observers could be possible.

More significantly, direct air drops of support into the West Bank and Gaza alongside of sanctions against Israel for continuing settlements could be very helpful in forcing them to the table.

Air drops into Gaza? I guess it depends on what is dropped. As we all know, if it's construction materials or materials that can be used to build weapons a lot will be used to build new terror tunnels and new weapons to launch future aggressive attacks into Israel.

Settlements can be used to justify more violence against Palestinians.

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Just to be clear, we're not talking about miles of buffer zone, things are much smaller scale in these parts.

So far it seems like the tunnel detection issue is far trickier than most would imagine. The USA is facing similar issues down at the Mexico border. The blanket assertion that implies Israel can easily handle it was proven as wrong during the last round of hostilities

The settlements can be used to justify violence against Palestinians, in as much as there is Palestinian violence directed at the settlements. No, I'm not saying that the settlers aren't initiating violence, they do. Just recognizing it cuts both ways.

[Morch]

...

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Who are you to advise Israel on technical security matters? Israel is a TINY country. It is surrounded by hostiles on all sides except the sea. It's so easy for people who aren't Israelis to suggest pat "solutions" for Israel ... no risk to their lives, is it?

Why do you avoid the fact that the settlements are an issue?

As for who I am... I am one of the people forced to help pay to defend a country that cannot seem to do it on their own. Billions annually.

Would probably get the OT axe - but most of the military aid funds provided to Israel by the USA remains in the USA. It is basically working out pretty well for USA arms manufacturers. More like the USA funding USA firms. There are exceptions, but for the most part the above stands.

[Morch]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Krauthammer develops his knowledge and opinion from many many years of personal research - his commentary is completely independent of FoxNews... Krauthammer is highly respected by many in the profession - people of all political persuasions ... How about challenging his position and analysis instead of attacking FoxNews? Your post is vacant of any originality or substance ... just a silly distraction as you have nothing of substance to say.

I would like to see evidence that he is highly respected by anyone other than redneck Fox viewers (not saying all Fox viewers are redneck, just referring to that portion of the audience). I find it extremely doubtful.

Reading the piece offered above, he makes the outrageous claim that Hamas only fire rockets at Israel to draw retaliatory fire, so that they have Palestinian bodies to show the world.

Such a preposterous claim needs more than just opinion to back it up.

He makes false and emotive statements such as "Israel...has been warred upon for 66 years..." Whereas the fact is Israel is has been the instigator and the aggressor.

To break down all his fallacy, lies, distortions and sheer blatant unobjective bias would take this post way off topic, but I did need to respond to your groundless claim that the source in question is reputable.

Not exactly a fan of Krauthammer, but that's not to say that he's not, as mentioned, widely respected. Not sure what would constitute "proof", but have a look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Krauthammer. People holding different opinion does not automatically make them something to wipe your feet on.

The claim that Hamas fires rockets in order to draw retaliatory fire is not originally his, and not a very new concept. Not quite sure why the indignation, really. There are benefits to being the David vs. Goliath, Hamas is aware of it.

As for making emotive statements, I recall you getting weepy eyed and sentimental just the other day going on describing the dreams of the average Palestinian. Calling out a false statement and countering with another, does not make it right - Israel sure was the instigator and the aggressor at times - not in all the cases though. Can we agree that both blanket statements are off mark?

[jdinasia]

...

Israel has a buffer zone. They can set up detectors that are sensitive enough to stop most tunnels.

Who are you to advise Israel on technical security matters? Israel is a TINY country. It is surrounded by hostiles on all sides except the sea. It's so easy for people who aren't Israelis to suggest pat "solutions" for Israel ... no risk to their lives, is it?

Why do you avoid the fact that the settlements are an issue?

As for who I am... I am one of the people forced to help pay to defend a country that cannot seem to do it on their own. Billions annually.

Would probably get the OT axe - but most of the military aid funds provided to Israel by the USA remains in the USA. It is

basically working out pretty well for USA arms manufacturers. More like the USA funding USA firms. There are exceptions,

but for the most part the above stands.

Re: funding to defend Israel (and yes the settlements are an issue thus on topic. I helped pay for Iron Dome.

So of course I have a vested interest in how Israel spends my tax money.

Yes the area is smaller and thus easier to put detectors in. I agree with the UN and almost all countries, that Israel must stop the illegal settlements.

He did have a great idea though. I will contact my senators and congressman. It is something decent I can do to push for peace. I will suggest that we give absolutely no more aid to Israel until Israel stops new settlements and negotiates in good faith.

[Jingthing]

...

He did have a great idea though. I will contact my senators and congressman. It is something decent I can do to push for peace. I will suggest that we give absolutely no more aid to Israel until Israel stops new settlements and negotiates in good faith.

That's fine. Knock yourself out.

[Lissos]

I will contact my senators and congressman. It is something decent I can do to push for peace.

I will suggest that we give absolutely no more aid to Israel until Israel stops new settlements and negotiates in good faith.

Can any genuine peace arise from anyone / anything being pushed?

[jdinasia]

I will contact my senators and congressman. It is something decent I can do to push for peace.

I will suggest that we give absolutely no more aid to Israel until Israel stops new settlements and negotiates in good faith.

Can any genuine peace arise from anyone / anything being pushed?

Reasonable question, do you think the settlements are not pushing the Palestinians?

[Lissos]

Reasonable question, do you think the settlements are not pushing the Palestinians?

It probably depends on where they are built (population density / the wealth of, and kind of settlers etc).

In the midst of densely populated areas? Possibly yes, as tends to happen anywhere in the world where population density and competition for various resources leads to disputes. I mean, that goes on even where I live, where people get very territorial over a neighbour building a fence / wall that just might impose one inch over what the neighbour believes is the approved boundary, or a tree that may block some sun in the surrounding garden. Councils and planning permission act as the intermiediatory on those matters.

On the hill tops with quiet valleys below and little else on the horizon? Possibly not. I can think of one of the settlements I've been to where daily life was a quiet co-existence between the two peoples. Both just kept themselves to themselves. Arabs tended to their crops and herded goats down in a very peacefull Wadi (I met some of them and was given fresh ground water hauled up in a bucket, and had a chat with them. No stories of woe, from them), and the Jews had their super smart and polished housing estates up on the hills with sateliite dishes on the roofs and air conditions supermarkets just down the road for their food, instead of self growing. Jews went for walks and mountain biked through the Wadi, and Arab workers were sometimes involved in building projects in settlements. As I've mentioned before on the forum, it was a surprise to me just how non eventfull daily life was in the disputed territory of the West Bank. It tends to be portrayed online and on the 6 O'clock news as a persistent constant pressure pot of provokations, of adrenaline charge, tear gas and an intolerable imposition of flare ups over mere inches of land, as though it must be like lobsters all rolling around in a boiling pot. I suspect this would apply to areas like Hebron (didn't get there) more so, but overall the disputed territory has plenty of room where a surprisingly quiet co-existence is going on. The only time I saw flare ups was riots in and around camps like Qalandia, Balata etc, notorious flash points of rabble rousing by imams, the equivalent of sink estates that the rest of the population didn't pay attention to.

[MJP]

Got a few reports in about this thread.

Can I ask whether you boys are going to stay on topic and be nice to each other?

Answers on a postcard please.

[Jay Sata]

Is there any chance we can just discuss the settlement issue and not the Israeli and Palestinian conflict back to 1948?

The West Bank is designated by the UN along with Gaza as being the territory for the new Palestinian state.

Expanding Jewish migrant villages in the West Bank is being slated as wrong by the UN not least by the recent expansion plans.

[Jay Sata]

Got a few reports in about this thread.

Can I ask whether you boys are going to stay on topic and be nice to each other?

Answers on a postcard please.

I must say I like your laid back style of moderating and your honesty in revealing when you

don't know all the answers.

Hope you can keep us all corralled on topic.

[MJP]

Got a few reports in about this thread.

Can I ask whether you boys are going to stay on topic and be nice to each other?

Answers on a postcard please.

I must say I like your laid back style of moderating and your honesty in revealing when you

don't know all the answers.

Hope you can keep us all corralled on topic.

It is really tricky for me as I've discussed with other posters via PM.

A subject of this importance and sensitivity needs to be moderated by someone who really knows about these issues and I simply don't.

So it's the best I can do.

[thaibeachlovers]

Sweden did the right thing,rest of the Europa needs to follow and recognize Palestine.

No need to consult Israel, eh?

Not sure what this "right thing" is supposed to be for, because it's certainly not at all helpful to bringing about a peaceful two state solution.

The most popular party in West Bank and Gaza is radical Jihadist terrorist Hamas and the majority of "Palestinians" are in favor of violence against Israel.

It's hilarious to me that European "liberal progressives" think doing the "right thing" is to give further international credibility to the incredibly non-progressive Hamas movement. Even funnier when Jews, gays, and feminist women fall for this trendy "Free Palestine River to the sea" Hamas movement, in other words wipe out Israel. Understood from Islamists, of course, welcome to Middle East politics.

This is a recipe for more war, much more war. Thank you very much, Sweden, and it's ilk.

Also while I don't agree with building more "settlements" people are deluding themselves if that actually believe that stopping new settlements would mean most Palestinians would magically recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The settlements issue is a crutch. Look at what happened when Israel left Gaza, did that bring peace? Duh.

They may have "left" Gaza, but they have deprived them of the means of becoming independent by denying them the right to have shipping coming to their port. Very much a Claytons "left".

If you were a Gazan, would you accept the sham that Israel left them with?

[Jingthing]

Sweden did the right thing,rest of the Europa needs to follow and recognize Palestine.

No need to consult Israel, eh?

Not sure what this "right thing" is supposed to be for, because it's certainly not at all helpful to bringing about a peaceful two state solution.

The most popular party in West Bank and Gaza is radical Jihadist terrorist Hamas and the majority of "Palestinians" are in favor of violence against Israel.

It's hilarious to me that European "liberal progressives" think doing the "right thing" is to give further international credibility to the incredibly non-progressive Hamas movement. Even funnier when Jews, gays, and feminist women fall for this trendy "Free Palestine River to the sea" Hamas movement, in other words wipe out Israel. Understood from Islamists, of course, welcome to Middle East politics.

This is a recipe for more war, much more war. Thank you very much, Sweden, and it's ilk.

Also while I don't agree with building more "settlements" people are deluding themselves if that actually believe that stopping new settlements would mean most Palestinians would magically recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The settlements issue is a crutch. Look at what happened when Israel left Gaza, did that bring peace? Duh.

They may have "left" Gaza, but they have deprived them of the means of becoming independent by denying them the right to have shipping coming to their port. Very much a Claytons "left".

If you were a Gazan, would you accept the sham that Israel left them with?

If I were a Gazan? That's a laugh. A gay Jewish Gazan wouldn't be allowed to live by their Islamofascist government. On the other hand, in Israel there are gay Arab Muslim Israeli citizens .. go figure.

Somewhat more seriously ... the problem with opening up ports in Gaza is that their government is dedicated to kicking out/killing the Jews of Israel through violent means. What's Israel supposed to do? Just let them?

[Jay Sata]

Got a few reports in about this thread.

Can I ask whether you boys are going to stay on topic and be nice to each other?

Answers on a postcard please.

I must say I like your laid back style of moderating and your honesty in revealing when you

don't know all the answers.

Hope you can keep us all corralled on topic.

It is really tricky for me as I've discussed with other posters via PM.

A subject of this importance and sensitivity needs to be moderated by someone who really knows about these issues and I simply don't.

So it's the best I can do.

Don't worry you are doing a decent job.

Moderation can reach a point where there is no discussion outside the remit of the moderator.

Politics,sex and religion are always tricky subjects.

Throw the Middle East in to the pot an you have an interesting brew.

[Jay Sata]

Sweden did the right thing,rest of the Europa needs to follow and recognize Palestine.

No need to consult Israel, eh?

Not sure what this "right thing" is supposed to be for, because it's certainly not at all helpful to bringing about a peaceful two state solution.

The most popular party in West Bank and Gaza is radical Jihadist terrorist Hamas and the majority of "Palestinians" are in favor of violence against Israel.

It's hilarious to me that European "liberal progressives" think doing the "right thing" is to give further international credibility to the incredibly non-progressive Hamas movement. Even funnier when Jews, gays, and feminist women fall for this trendy "Free Palestine River to the sea" Hamas movement, in other words wipe out Israel. Understood from Islamists, of course, welcome to Middle East politics.

This is a recipe for more war, much more war. Thank you very much, Sweden, and it's ilk.

Also while I don't agree with building more "settlements" people are deluding themselves if that actually believe that stopping new settlements would mean most Palestinians would magically recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The settlements issue is a crutch. Look at what happened when Israel left Gaza, did that bring peace? Duh.

They may have "left" Gaza, but they have deprived them of the means of becoming independent by denying them the right to have shipping coming to their port. Very much a Claytons "left".

If you were a Gazan, would you accept the sham that Israel left them with?

If I were a Gazan? That's a laugh. A gay Jewish Gazan wouldn't be allowed to live by their Islamofascist government. On the other hand, in Israel there are gay Arab Muslim Israeli citizens .. go figure.

Somewhat more seriously ... the problem with opening up ports in Gaza is that their government is dedicated to kicking out/killing the Jews of Israel through violent means. What's Israel supposed to do? Just let them?

that

That sort of thinking would never have resolved the Irish issue.

[thaibeachlovers]

Sweden did the right thing,rest of the Europa needs to follow and recognize Palestine.

No need to consult Israel, eh?

Not sure what this "right thing" is supposed to be for, because it's certainly not at all helpful to bringing about a peaceful two state solution.

The most popular party in West Bank and Gaza is radical Jihadist terrorist Hamas and the majority of "Palestinians" are in favor of violence against Israel.

It's hilarious to me that European "liberal progressives" think doing the "right thing" is to give further international credibility to the incredibly non-progressive Hamas movement. Even funnier when Jews, gays, and feminist women fall for this trendy "Free Palestine River to the sea" Hamas movement, in other words wipe out Israel. Understood from Islamists, of course, welcome to Middle East politics.

This is a recipe for more war, much more war. Thank you very much, Sweden, and it's ilk.

Also while I don't agree with building more "settlements" people are deluding themselves if that actually believe that stopping new settlements would mean most Palestinians would magically recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The settlements issue is a crutch. Look at what happened when Israel left Gaza, did that bring peace? Duh.

They may have "left" Gaza, but they have deprived them of the means of becoming independent by denying them the right to have shipping coming to their port. Very much a Claytons "left".

If you were a Gazan, would you accept the sham that Israel left them with?

If I were a Gazan? That's a laugh. A gay Jewish Gazan wouldn't be allowed to live by their Islamofascist government. On the other hand, in Israel there are gay Arab Muslim Israeli citizens .. go figure.

Somewhat more seriously ... the problem with opening up ports in Gaza is that their government is dedicated to kicking out/killing the Jews of Israel through violent means. What's Israel supposed to do? Just let them?

What's the alternative? Keep the status quo for ever?

At some stage, things will have to change, but there appears to be no plans by Israel to do anything to resolve the situation.

If Israel doesn't do something to change things for the better for the Gazans, eventually it will come back to bite them on the bum.

Even if it takes a hundred years, eventually Israel will regret it didn't free the Gazans before they elected Hamas.

[Jingthing]

What's the alternative? Keep the status quo for ever?

At some stage, things will have to change, but there appears to be no plans by Israel to do anything to resolve the situation.

If Israel doesn't do something to change things for the better for the Gazans, eventually it will come back to bite them on the bum.

Even if it takes a hundred years, eventually Israel will regret it didn't free the Gazans before they elected Hamas.

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

You raise the rocket threat from Gaza all the time but the truth is they are no more than glorified fireworks.

What puzzles me is the sophisticated Iron Dome missile system developed in part by Israel cannot cope?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, kippat barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems.

‎

Given the threat you raise by the agricultural style rockets that emerge from Gaza why can this Iron Dome system not neutralise these basic missiles?

Am I missing something?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Seastallion]

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Krauthammer develops his knowledge and opinion from many many years of personal research - his commentary is completely independent of FoxNews... Krauthammer is highly respected by many in the profession - people of all political persuasions ... How about challenging his position and analysis instead of attacking FoxNews? Your post is vacant of any originality or substance ... just a silly distraction as you have nothing of substance to say.

I would like to see evidence that he is highly respected by anyone other than redneck Fox viewers (not saying all Fox viewers are redneck, just referring to that portion of the audience). I find it extremely doubtful.

Reading the piece offered above, he makes the outrageous claim that Hamas only fire rockets at Israel to draw retaliatory fire, so that they have Palestinian bodies to show the world.

Such a preposterous claim needs more than just opinion to back it up.

He makes false and emotive statements such as "Israel...has been warred upon for 66 years..." Whereas the fact is Israel is has been the instigator and the aggressor.

To break down all his fallacy, lies, distortions and sheer blatant unobjective bias would take this post way off topic, but I did need to respond to your groundless claim that the source in question is reputable.

Whenever in doubt radical Islam's intentions, ask them, or listen to what they tell you. The problem with so many today is that they refuse to believe, or hear, what muslims tell us. "Does Hamas use human shields?" Yes, the answer is not only an overwhelming "yes" by observation and patent evidence but Hamas repeatedly tells us they do.

"Does Hamas fire rockets to draw retalitory fire upon the local civilian population?" Yes; Hamas has a policy of inviting Palestinians to love death as much as jews love life. Hamas has a clearly articulated policy of using human shields. Hamas fires rockets from schools. Hamas fires rockets from hospitals. The chain of reasoning is sound- Hamas fires rockets to draw retalitory fire on innocents to use numbers of their own dead as an instrument of policy. I will avoid the obvious moral rebuke that is invited but will point out only the most savage of history's despots have used such cunning. But I am not alone.

When considering anything regarding this region... anything! Context applies, to a point. There are clear moral imperatives for the palestinian cause. There are clear legal imperatives for the Israeli claims. However, the context of unbriddled hatred and evil should always inform our path, not emotions; evidence Hamas policy.

http://honestreporting.com/foreign-journalists-acknowledge-hamas-human-shields-tactics/

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8076.htm

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/08/05/the-medias-role-in-hamas-war-strategy/

http://www.shalomlife.com/news/25803/hamas-admits-to-launching-rockets-from-civilian-areas/

http://blog.godreports.com/2014/08/captured-hamas-warfare-manual-dictates-use-of-human-shields/

http://peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/03/20/481016/-Hamas-Admits-Using-Women-and-Children-as-Human-Shields-w-video

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/after-video-evidence-hamas-finally-admits-having-used-human-shields-by-mistake-4000-times/

http://honestreporting.com/hamas-reveals-media-strategy/

If the mainly harmless rockets are calculated to bring retaliation, why would Israel retaliate? Please don't throw me in the briar patch Brer Fox.

I would say that if any action is calculated to bring retaliation, it is settlement building.

The difference between harmless rockets and settlements is that the settlements actually do impact on large numbers of Palestinians, and thus retaliation is obliged.

Just before we stray completely back to topic.......Harmless rockets, human shields, asking for retaliation. If the rockets are to draw fire, if there are civilians in the way, there is all the more reason to NOT fire back. Why does Israel inflict the civilian casualties if it is what Hamas wants?