Bought a car. Dealer wont move plates or take my calls.

[ChaangNoi]

I'm going to keep the car no matter what, even if he returns the money. He is not the owner of the car and I have a legal obligation to find the true owner and let them know I bought their car legally. Sure that might take a while, even years and then after that I have no obligation to return it to the owner. I just have to let him know I got it from Sam and if he has an issue with it he also needs to contact/sue Sam.

But yeah this Turk could leave illegally but he does have land and other stuff here. He also owes millions to the Thai government in back taxes and some other "locals". He could leave but if he does I will be one of the least affected. I honestly think playing hardball with him he will just pay back the money or find some way to get the book. He is on a fast path to being jailed again. This time for a long time. I just can't see him giving up now after he has fought so hard to stay out for so long. I'm honestly more worried about him being killed than running from Thailand. He might be causing too much noise for people. A main media publication has contacted me about corruption in Thailand and wanted me to get involved in their story but I told them no. Sooner or later they are going to find someone who will say yes. His face on the front page of the BBC is not really going to do well for him in Thailand. The courts in BKK already know him by name. His end game is near as there is no way he will ever be able to pay all the money back he has stolen.

[Fookhaht]

Rule # 1 for buyers: always buy from someone who is close enough for you to get your hands around their throat when necessary.

I violated my own rule about 5 years ago, and had to fight tooth-and-nail to recover 58,000B from a renegade Chiang Mai travel agent, 700km away. Never again!

[ChaangNoi]

Rule # 1 for buyers: always buy from someone who is close enough for you to get your hands around their throat when necessary.

I violated my own rule about 5 years ago, and had to fight tooth-and-nail to recover 58,000B from a renegade Chiang Mai travel agent, 700km away. Never again!

Yeah I know what you mean and honestly he is within my reach, even in Turkey. The only question will be the cost of reaching him. I'm doing this because he was an <deleted> and lied to my face, not because it is cost effective. I never assume I will be able to keep anything I ever buy in Thailand. Right now I am a welcomed guest, but I know that can change over night. I hope a Saloth Sar never shows up in Thailand but I know it can happen anywhere at anytime.

[Anthony5]

When you mentioned it was a Turk who sold Lambo's I knew right away who you were talking about. He has been doing this for probably a decade or more.

His showroom is completely empty now by the way.

[Fookhaht]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Rule # 1 for buyers: always buy from someone who is close enough for you to get your hands around their throat when necessary.

I violated my own rule about 5 years ago, and had to fight tooth-and-nail to recover 58,000B from a renegade Chiang Mai travel agent, 700km away. Never again!

Yeah I know what you mean and honestly he is within my reach, even in Turkey. The only question will be the cost of reaching him. I'm doing this because he was an <deleted> and lied to my face, not because it is cost effective. I never assume I will be able to keep anything I ever buy in Thailand. Right now I am a welcomed guest, but I know that can change over night. I hope a Saloth Sar never shows up in Thailand but I know it can happen anywhere at anytime.

I whole-heartedly agree with your statement, "I never assume I will be able to keep anything I ever buy in Thailand." I operate on the same principle, and it softens the inevitable blows that have come and will come. Keeps my life simple, too. Ha.

[HooHaa]

When you mentioned it was a Turk who sold Lambo's I knew right away who you were talking about. He has been doing this for probably a decade or more.

His showroom is completely empty now by the way.

i know of one other person who has been going through the same thing, same guy.

[ChaangNoi]

When you mentioned it was a Turk who sold Lambo's I knew right away who you were talking about. He has been doing this for probably a decade or more.

His showroom is completely empty now by the way.

Yup, I just wonder how he is going to get out of this one. I really do not see many options for him. We refuse to take any of his "deals" so it is pay us the money or go to jail.

Since his showroom is empty it looks like he wont be able to sell any more cars and thus get any more income. That is going to be a pretty big problem for him in the near future. He has been buying time and it looks like everyone is going to go after him at the same time once he runs out.

Will he flee? Maybe, but he owes a lot of Thai people a lot of money so it will be a very interesting thing to watch.

[ChaangNoi]

When you mentioned it was a Turk who sold Lambo's I knew right away who you were talking about. He has been doing this for probably a decade or more.

His showroom is completely empty now by the way.

i know of one other person who has been going through the same thing, same guy.

I know of a few as well. If you would like, have him contact me if he has not already. We can share notes and hopefully work together to solve the problem for all of us.

Thanks

[kartman]

Update:

Criminal Court: Went pretty much as expected. Sam did not show up but did send a lawyer. The lawyer did try to make a deal with us before hand but we rejected it before even hearing the terms. In the past it seems he has gotten out of a case by giving someone a bad check. This does not solve his problem but moves the case to a different court. Check fraud is a real crime but it is handled differently than selling stolen cars. Anyway the first thing Sam's lawyer did was ask for the date to be pushed back a few months. We told the judge that it was not okay as we had flew in from far away and were waiting for this to get resolved. Judge said to do it now. We more or less told the story of how we bought the car and were told we would get the book in 2 weeks. This was last September. Judge then asked why Sam did not give us the book and she said the car was financed and they had not paid the company. There was some other stuff that happened but nothing significant. The judge more or less said Sam has until the next court date to give us back the money or we press on with criminal charges. So he has about 2 months to refund the money or we have a court date where we give more evidence that he committed a crime. He then gets 2 more months to pay us back evidently. If he has not done it by then he has to go to court and an "adjustment" is done. This is where if the car is not paid for he is taken to jail. Don't know for how long but it sure will be fun seeing him there for a while. He has many cases going on right now and if he is in jail it will pretty much force him to lose many of the others making him stay in jail even longer.

The OCPB case has not really progressed. The local office sent off the stuff to BKK but did not hear from them in a month so resent it all. I called down in BKK to see what was going on but the person doing our case was in the hospital. She said if we had the number she could look it up. However since the locals resent it to BKK there is a new case number. The locals claim they do not have that number and we should get that number from Bkk in a week or two. So I do not know what is going on but no one seems to know what is going on. We are still going to take both paths but dealing with the OCPB has been interesting to say the least.

I will keep updating but it might be a few months.

So when was the car financed.

[ChaangNoi]

So when was the car financed.

No idea, not even sure who it is financed with. The company who's name is in the book claims it was paid off 3 years ago. I'm going to guess that it is "financed" unofficially.

Honestly the next time we go to trial I'm going to see if I can have my lawyer suggest the car was stolen as there is no evidence of it being financed. If nothing else Sam should have to show that it is financed or have that doubt in the judges mind. The judge knows Sam well so he might just let us get away with that one.

[kartman]

First of all you said French guy in book then a Thai guy now your saying a Company in the book .

[ChaangNoi]

First of all you said French guy in book then a Thai guy now your saying a Company in the book .

I have a photocopy of the book that shows that it is owned by a French guy. However that copy is outdated.

The current information on the book came from the Thai government's computer system and shows that the car is owned by a Thai guy and a Thai finance company. The Thai guy can not be found (by us) and the finance company claims that there was debt on the car but was paid off 2 to 3 years ago.

Sam's lawyer told a judge that the car was being financed.

This is all the information I have and where it came from. I understand it is confusing but we are slowly finding out more information and we do not even know 100% of the story. The car could honestly be stolen for all I know.

[Anthony5]

First of all you said French guy in book then a Thai guy now your saying a Company in the book .

I have a photocopy of the book that shows that it is owned by a French guy. However that copy is outdated.

The current information on the book came from the Thai government's computer system and shows that the car is owned by a Thai guy and a Thai finance company. The Thai guy can not be found (by us) and the finance company claims that there was debt on the car but was paid off 2 to 3 years ago.

Sam's lawyer told a judge that the car was being financed.

This is all the information I have and where it came from. I understand it is confusing but we are slowly finding out more information and we do not even know 100% of the story. The car could honestly be stolen for all I know.

Sam told the DSI when they raided his showroom some 2 years ago, that ALL cars were financed, and that the reason why he couldn't show any documents from all the Ferrari's - lambo's and Bentleys in the showroom.

There was a thread about in the Pattaya news clippings, and everybody felt so sorry for the guy, because he was unjustified raided.

[ChaangNoi]

I don't know why he was raided but recently I found out he was. Honestly I'm not worried about all that. What I do know is that he lied to my face. He clearly has many people going after him and I do not feel sorry for the guy. Sure hope to see him in jail soon.

[Lancashirelad]

Thanks for updating us Chaangnoi. What a nightmare for you.

[ChaangNoi]

Thanks for updating us Chaangnoi. What a nightmare for you.

Not as bad as it is going to be for Sam. He will have to pay back the money or go to jail. Also since I have no obligation to give him back the car (it is clearly not his) he is going to either take a huge loss or be in jail for a long time.

This honestly might end up pretty awesome for me, and if not awesome at least I will get to visit him in the slammer:)

[ChaangNoi]

Short update. Lawyer was able to get the book from him using the pressure of the criminal court. However Sam also agreed to pay a fee when pleading guilty to the criminal charges as well to avoid going to jail. This fee was not paid and he did not go to jail. Not 100% sure how he got out of that. Might have been my lawyers fault, I don't know. Anyway there is a court date set for a month in the future. Not sure what will happen if he does not pay then.

I have heard rumors that he is facing a massive court case dealing with the supreme court soon dealing with several 10's of millions of Baht. Not sure if true but if so he will have bigger things to deal with than my case.

The consumer guys are no kidding still telling me that they are trying to get all of the paper work from the correct offices together. They have not even started looking at the case last I heard.

[Anthony5]

Short update. Lawyer was able to get the book from him using the pressure of the criminal court. However Sam also agreed to pay a fee when pleading guilty to the criminal charges as well to avoid going to jail. This fee was not paid and he did not go to jail. Not 100% sure how he got out of that. Might have been my lawyers fault, I don't know. Anyway there is a court date set for a month in the future. Not sure what will happen if he does not pay then.

I have heard rumors that he is facing a massive court case dealing with the supreme court soon dealing with several 10's of millions of Baht. Not sure if true but if so he will have bigger things to deal with than my case.

The consumer guys are no kidding still telling me that they are trying to get all of the paper work from the correct offices together. They have not even started looking at the case last I heard.

I don't know how it exactly worked, but in his high days all the big farangs in Pattaya had cars from him. All Ferraris, Lambos and Bentleys, but they didn't pay for them.

Someone told me at that time that they paid a membership fee and next a certain amount of money every month, and they were allowed to change cars.

The amount of membership fee determined to which kind of car you were entitled, but the cars always were parked back at the showroom.

That guy also told me that none of the cars were legally imported, which was later confirmed by someone with credible information regarding, and that most of them were on stolen car list in neighbouring countries.

[ChaangNoi]

It seems he owes a huge amount in taxes as well. I have no idea how this guy is not in jail to be honest.

[Anthony5]

It seems he owes a huge amount in taxes as well. I have no idea how this guy is not in jail to be honest.

In Thailand it isn't a matter of what you know but who you know.

Huge amounts of money were involved in this business and people high up the ladder were involved. I'm sure he is protected.

[ChaangNoi]

Maybe so, but unless he finds some money, as far as I understand it, he will end up in jail. He plead guilty to the crime we charged him with. Next court date I'm sure I will know more.

[konying]

Maybe so, but unless he finds some money, as far as I understand it, he will end up in jail. He plead guilty to the crime we charged him with. Next court date I'm sure I will know more.

This is the problem. If he does not pay any money he ends up in jail,

Sounds good, but does not put any money into your pocket

Another rather silly outcome if he pays a little money then court will sentence him to jail, but grant probation, ie no time served at all.

Again sounds great, but the amount he pays may be as little as 10% of owed amount, ie you loose again.

I am in the process of filing one against someone and have seen a number of lawyer now. Before i go ahead, i wanted to cover all basis and outcomes and basically the above 2 are the outcomes.

All the lawyers i saw, pretty much said the same thing, person would pay "some" money, usually minimal amount and judge gives them probation, because this is how Thai legal system works.

I am going after 100 000 baht(not the money but in this case principal of the matter), legal fees would be 60000.

Lawyers believe person would pay 10 000 and get probation.

So i come out as a winner, with 50 000 baht out of pocket.

Sure i screw that person but i also end up screwing myself.

Now just need to decide if my principles are worth 50 000 baht.

Sorry to go off topic,, just wanted to warn you to think before taking further steps, as lawyers always gets paid, while claimants loose out

[ChaangNoi]

Yeah, the system here is for the lawyers to win. But I won't get ****ed over either. I'm happy to just walk away from the car rather than lose face by getting robbed by a lawyer.

This Sam guy is going to get all sorts of trouble. He was not only doing that rent a Lambo club, but he was selling them as well. A lot of people he sold stolen cars to are very upset. Some people I have talked to about this are shocked one he has not left Thailand and two he is not dead.

I sued the guy cuz he lied to my face. I don't care about the money. But your point is very valid on how legal action is not a good way to recover lost money here in Thailand. Best advice is to be vary careful. Trust no one.

[JaseTheBass]

Fascinating tale. Looking forward to reading the next chapter.

[paz]

I sued the guy cuz he lied to my face. I don't care about the money. But your point is very valid on how legal action is not a good way to recover lost money here in Thailand. Best advice is to be vary careful. Trust no one.

I always find this "not for the money" attitude strange. Being lied by a merchant over a material matter is different than being lied by a relative, loved one or even business partner. So it was sued for principle, that lead to no good either, what's the point really. In other words if one has lost money should go for the money. Of course if suing can bring real trouble to the criminal then is worth to do it.

[ChaangNoi]

@paz

Yes, my goal was to have him jailed. However it seems the Thai legal systems more or less lets the bad guy pay his way out. It would have been hard for me to force him to jail unless he did not make a reasonable payment for his crime. I accepted his offer based on the advice of my lawyer. Sam has not paid this debt yet but is more or less in a pretty bad spot as he admitted to his crime. Im under the assumption if he does not pay, he will go to jail sooner or later. All I have to do is keep flying the lawyer down there once every two months to see the judge. It has been over a year but I will never give up until he is in jail or I am happy with the amount of cash I get.

We all need hobbies right?

[Don Mega]

how did you plan to force him into jail ?

[ChaangNoi]

how did you plan to force him into jail ?

To avoid the trial Sam plead guilty to the judge. The judge then forced us to try to make a deal rather than send him right to jail. We did make a deal (I get the book plus money). Then the judge made a big show of saying if he did not follow up on the deal he would be arrested and go to jail. He even had Sam stand up and have the police officer who was in the room identify him. Sam only brought the book last time so I guess the judge gave him more time. Evidently since this was theft he only gets 2 or 3 more court dates to pay up or he goes to jail. If he goes to jail he will also owe the court money adding to his fail. That was part of the deal I wanted added as I know the Thai government will go after that fine and jail him.

So I can't force him in jail myself but it looks like he is in a pretty bad spot.

I have heard reports he is paying some people back he owes money too so I don't think he is going to do a runner and he is trying very hard to stay out of jail.

[ChaangNoi]

Ended up getting a decent cash payment, enough that I'd rather have the money than him in jail.

Assuming the book that my lawyer has, is able to be moved into my wife's name then all is good.

System works:)

Edit: I know of a second case with the same guy/company where they also were able top resolve their problems. They also received money ending the case.

[ChaangNoi]

Looks like not everything was resolved with the other people he was working with. Everything on my end worked out fine plus extra cash. I guess he just ran out of money. His check cashing issues were going on for ages.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/881605-well-known-turkish-luxury-car-dealer-arrested-by-pattaya-immigration/

Merry Christmas.