Bought a car. Dealer wont move plates or take my calls.

[harrry]

I guess the best question here is can a person sell something he does not own? Is that civil or criminal? I assume there has to be some law somewhere he can be charged with.

Also what happens if the dealer or the french guy comes back and take's the car from me. Can someone steal their own property? This is what I really fear. As I don't have ownership of the car I can't risk driving it. Also what if the police take if for no taxes being taken, can I get back a car I don't own?

Crazyness...

At the moment it is his car. You are actually in possession of stolen property. All of you are on the hook with the police if the owner wants to make a case. You would lose the car for sure.

[kartman]

The cars not stolen just the dealer didn't check the full registration details their problem not the Frenchman's or his wife they are not car dealers who should check everything and know the regulations if a vehicle is in a foreigners name. As the OP has just said he has had no contact with the wife if i was her or her Husband and the OP, the dealer or anybody else tried to involve me in the dealers problem the answer would be tough you sort it out.

[ChaangNoi]

The french guy has no reason to get involved unless he wants his wife charged with stealing his car. Since I am assuming that is not the case and it is just the dealer messing up I am going after the dealer.

I want to put as much pressure on the Dealer as I can so is there anything criminal I can have him charged with? Civil as you know will take years and I don't want to have a useless car sit here for that long.

[stevenl]

I think you have the right approach. You just need some patience now for the OCPD to do its job.

[kartman]

As vehicles in Thailand can be driven, basic government insured & taxed without a actual Blue Book think your in it for the long haul, you have nothing in writing that the dealer will give you a copy of previous registered owner's valid Visa it's your word against theirs I'd say that's Civil.At the end of the day they may just give you the Blue Book and say your move.

[ChaangNoi]

As vehicles in Thailand can be driven, basic government insured & taxed without a actual Blue Book think your in it for the long haul, you have nothing in writing that the dealer will give you a copy of previous registered owner's valid Visa it's your word against theirs I'd say that's Civil.At the end of the day they may just give you the Blue Book and say your move.

How can I pay the tax on this car without being the owner or having the book? It is sitting locked away because I fear the police will seize it due to taxes not being paid. If I can go pay the taxes owed I will very much do so right away. Also can I pay the taxes here or do I need to fly the 1000 km to do it where the car is registered?

Also the car is insured by us but if the car does get destroyed/stolen does my wife get the money or does the owner of the car? Can I take out insurance on the car of the local drunk and collect winnings when he crashes?

[ChaangNoi]

It is his word against mine that he would give us the book but honestly that is a reasonable thing to expect when someone pays millions of Baht for a car. Could a guy really say, "Oh you want the book too? Well that was not in the written agreement!"

I understand that the police might not be able to make a ruling based on a lack of evidence and might not be able to jail him. However what I want is for there to be an investigation so he has pressure to deal with the issue. All I really want is this to get resolved ASAP with either the money back or the book in my wife's name.

Is there some sort of Thai law that says trickery or lying to get a bunch of money is a crime? I'm not looking for him to be jailed, just enough for the police to have to call him and start asking questions. Also how is this not theft? He took my money failed to give me ownership of the good he sold me. I'm not an expert in Thai law but I would think there is something somewhere that I could get the police to act.

I'm going to sue him in civil court as well but i just want as much pressure on him as I can. I want him to realize that it is in his best interest to resolve the issue one way or the other. Once he sees we are sending 100,000s of Baht to get this resolve he will understand it just wont go away.

[Ace of Pop]

How do You get a Tax Window sticker without a Copy or Original Blue Book ?..Insurance want details too.

[ChaangNoi]

How do You get a Tax Window sticker without a Copy or Original Blue Book ?..Insurance want details too.

I do have a photocopy of the Blue Book. I was able to get insurance based on that.

I have no idea if I can use it to pay taxes. It also seems they are two years behind on the taxes. I will pay the old taxes if I am able to drive the thing legally.

[konying]

How do You get a Tax Window sticker without a Copy or Original Blue Book ?..Insurance want details too.

I do have a photocopy of the Blue Book. I was able to get insurance based on that.

I have no idea if I can use it to pay taxes. It also seems they are two years behind on the taxes. I will pay the old taxes if I am able to drive the thing legally.

Being 2 years behind in tax could only really mean 1 thing and that is the car owner, ie the French guy is out of the country for a long time and wife did not have the means to pay the taxes, so she traded the car, kept the money difference and you stuck with it all.

Wait for OCBP before taking any other steps, it would appear this case to be a real mess.

[konying]

There is another scenario here.

Dealer can not transfer the book without back paying taxes.

Dealer can not payback the taxes because he does not have the blue book.

OP , have you actually seen the blue book or only a copy?

One can not pay tax without the book because tax paid stamp goes in the book

[ChaangNoi]

The wife not having money can't be the issue if she traded up.

I honestly do not remember if I saw the book or not. I did not expect it that day. I bought a Harley the week before and same thing. Ended up getting the book for the bike about 3 weeks later.

I still do not think the dealer was trying to pull a fast one on me, he just got caught up in a mistake and is just ignoring the issue rather than being honest with me about it. However that is an assumption.

OCBP meeting will be interesting.

[seedy]

I feel for you. Please keep us posted.

Wishing you the best of luck.

[Lancashirelad]

OP slowly reveals information bit by bit.

Just to be clear:

Its an very expensive motor, even though this is the motoring forum where nearly all members are interested in cars, he has chosen not to say what it is.

He DOES have a copy of the Blue Book

With that he has been able to insure the vehicle

He is not using it, its in a locked garage.

The road tax has expired some 2 years ago. (why?)

I do not think the dealer has not sold a car he did not own. He did own it quite legitimately. (except see * below) HOWEVER he has run into an unexpected problem/delay in getting the Blue Book transferred to the new owner (the OP's wife). Instead of using good, clear and regular communication he (farang dealer) is exhibiting what we often see as a Thai trait and hoping time will make the problem go away.

Once again I suggest that speaking to the French man's wife could be very fruitful. (although I agree it should not be necessary).

Other than that, you need to be patient and await the outcome of the meeting with the OCPB

Konying wrote: wife did not have the means to pay the taxes, so she traded the car, kept the money difference and you stuck with it all.

Car dealers don't work that way round, they TAKE cash. The French man's wife bought a NEW Land Rover (model unspecified) trading in the USED vehicle the OP now has.

*Going to throw another possibility into the mix now. The car is/was on finance with the finance co. holding the Blue Book. Finance co. have not been settled & therefor not released the book. Frenchie would have had a copy. This should have been checked by the dealer. Was it?

I have in mind we aren't allowed to link to other forums. Google "Thailand Do you need a visa to sell a car" and focus on the first result. Interesting reading and seems quite accurate?

[harrry]

I do hope it is not the little red car from the other thread.

[ChaangNoi]

The car is not red and I do not know about the other thread. This is a used but high end Benz not that it really matters.

I don't understand that question about the tax being expired. Clearly the owner did not pay the tax for some reason or another. As far as I know he is dead, not in Thailand, not the correct visa, who knows but does not really matter. He did not pay it.

Time will not make this issue go away unless the dealer can get the other side to move the book.

Claiming he the dealer does not own the car is something I do wonder about. I bet he has a contract from the wife saying he can own the car. But since the wife does not own the car is it valid? And even if he got a letter from the French guy, can the dealer really own a car that does not have his name in the book? This is really key and I wish I knew more. Because I can void the sale if he never had the legal right to sell it or get him on criminal charges if he wont refund.

I just don't understand if the dealer was acting in a legal way here. It seems he sold a car he cant sell. Is that a crime?

Can I sell a car that is not mine, take the money and only worry about civil court? I find that hard to believe.

Also the dealer had he been up front and honest I would have just tried to work it out with him. But since he wont take the calls it forces me to take all the action I can.

Yeah right now I am just waiting for the OCBP and will see what happens.

[kartman]

Did the Dealer take the PX more than 2 years ago .

[ChaangNoi]

Did the Dealer take the PX more than 2 years ago .

If by PX you mean photo copy then maybe. However there is no tax tag on the car, not even an old one.

Also I have information from a third party who has no interest in this that supports the wife trading the car in about 2 months before I bought it. I'm not really sure what you are getting at.

Edit: Also since I am here a short update. The OCBP guy said he thinks that this week they will be able to mail us the letter. Called him a few hours ago.

[Lancashirelad]

PX = Part exchange. I think kartman is trying to ascertain if the the Merc (Oh its so much easier to reference now we at least know the make) had been in stock at the dealers since the tax expired. (i.e. 2 years). But you have since answered that.

[ChaangNoi]

Update: I did get the letter saying that there will be a meeting at the time and the day that we were told a few weeks ago.

I don't understand really why the delay in the letter but so far everything has gone down like they said it would.

Our first demand will be to get the book that day. The second will be to get the money back with in one week. Third demand would be to have the OCBP help us get the police to open up a criminal investigation against the dealer and or wife. We are under the impression the wife sold the car when she was not legally able to do so. We are also under the impression that the dealer sold us a car that he had no right to sell, a car that is potentially stolen and could be reported stolen at any time.

Does anyone have any idea what part of the law code this would fall under? I'm sure this has to be illegal, sell a car one does not own can't just be a civil crime. I would like to walk into that meeting knowing a bit about the law. Maybe try a different forum?

Thanks all for the help.

[Ace of Pop]

Was it a low price buy

[harrry]

Getting the book means nothing unless it has been transfrered to your name.

[ChaangNoi]

Ace of Pop, No it was pretty much at a fair market price and they had it listed for a month before I was able to get them to knock of the 100k I wanted. They were not in a rush to sell it. Also the car was in the front display of the shop for at least one month. They were not trying to hide the car. If the car is stolen I don't think they knew that it was. Still, not my problem.

Harrry, Thank you for helping everyone who did not understand that the goal was to get the car in my wife's name.

[ChaangNoi]

Maybe going to the police is not the correct way to do things. Should I not be going to the Army? After all are we not in martial law?

Anyone know who I should talk with? I doubt driving up to the nearest army base is going to be all the effective but I could try it.

[Robert24]

Update: I did get the letter saying that there will be a meeting at the time and the day that we were told a few weeks ago.

I don't understand really why the delay in the letter but so far everything has gone down like they said it would.

Our first demand will be to get the book that day. The second will be to get the money back with in one week. Third demand would be to have the OCBP help us get the police to open up a criminal investigation against the dealer and or wife. We are under the impression the wife sold the car when she was not legally able to do so. We are also under the impression that the dealer sold us a car that he had no right to sell, a car that is potentially stolen and could be reported stolen at any time.

Does anyone have any idea what part of the law code this would fall under? I'm sure this has to be illegal, sell a car one does not own can't just be a civil crime. I would like to walk into that meeting knowing a bit about the law. Maybe try a different forum?

Thanks all for the help.

Suggest you check with a criminal lawyer about the specifics in the Thai law. I'd certainly say that the dealer is guilty of cheating which is definitely an offense under the Thai criminal law.

When you file a police report, the police will investigate it and then decide how to proceed.

My recommendation is to file a police report anyway. The prosecution of criminal offense is separate from you being able to recover your money or resolve the case by finally getting ownership transferred to you.

[Robert24]

Maybe going to the police is not the correct way to do things. Should I not be going to the Army? After all are we not in martial law?

Anyone know who I should talk with? I doubt driving up to the nearest army base is going to be all the effective but I could try it.

Police are still in charge of investigating criminal cases, not the army. Under martial law, the army mainly focusses on security matters.

[Ace of Pop]

The Army isnt as silly as it first appears. They got rid of Mo Cy Yobs from my friends area.Police never did in 20 years. I just hate whats happened to You, but like most here im a tad lost.

[ChaangNoi]

I do want to file a police report but I want to wait until the OCPB meeting so that the police know that we are very active in trying to solve this in a way that does not involve the police. If we get it resolved (book or money back) no need for police. I would hate to go to the police and find out a week later he either has the book or is willing to pay the money. I doubt the Dealer is going to do anything but still, OCBP first.

I understand the Army will odds are kick it over to the police but is there any document I can get from the Army that will let them know that they need to take the case seriously? Is there any way that I can get the army to have it said in writing this police or that police needs to do the job?

Edit: The dealership is also in Pattaya, an area that I know the Army wants cleaned up. Because of the well known corruption I feel that the police might not want to go after someone who I would assume has been making donations for years.

[tom21]

interesting thread and a warning on being carful with buying a car (or anything.) there is one thing I do not understand in the OP. quote;-he would send us the documents to get the plates moved from bkk and the green book) , that is why would you want to move the plates from Bangkok. I have never done that and did not know it could be done easily

[ChaangNoi]

It takes a few weeks but moving the plates can be done and I thought was normal. We like to pay our taxes where we live anyway.