'Four killed' in Jerusalem synagogue attack

[Morch]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

But you are correct on one point; the USA will never join in any sanctions against Israel; the Jewish lobby in the States is too large to upset by so doing.

That's nice, only Israel is not quite up there with the past South Africa, even if some posters think so.

The situation in Israel is more complex, and got more shades of grey in it.

There were pretty wide spread economic sanctions laid on Israel in the past - while (despite UG's rosy depiction) they

did take their toll, Israel still stands. Economic sanctions are meaningless without the ability and the will to enforce

them. Will all the countries recognizing Palestine as a state step up and join such sanctions? I doubt it, and also doubt

the USA will be the only one not participating.

Moreover, people advocating extreme economic sanctions on Israel rarely stop to think about the implications this may

bear on Palestinians. With their economy tied to that of Israel, they will take a hit as well.

[Ulysses G.]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

The Hamas charter does not call for the genocide of the Jews; anyone who reads it in full with an open mind can see that.

A dishonest or deluded mind is more like it.

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

-Hamas Charter

[7by7]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

Boycotts began before Israel was even founded as a state. Needless to say, they have had little effect and the economy of Israel is becoming more and more successful.

No boycotts by the big players; e.g. the USA.

Of course and very unlikely to ever happen in any way that matters. Americans MUCH prefer Israel to the Palestinians. Anyway, It is no secret that boycotting Israel has been a dismal failure.

http://www.ibtimes.c...failure-1459879

Your link doesn't work.

But I concede your point; boycotts of Israel wont work until and unless the USA participate; which it wont do.

But not because 'Americans much prefer Israel to the Palestinians.'

If the palestinian lobby in the USA was as large as the Jewish one and the Jewish one as small as the Palestinian then the USA's position on the whole issue would be the reverse of that which it currently takes!

[7by7]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

The Hamas charter does not call for the genocide of the Jews; anyone who reads it in full with an open mind can see that.

A dishonest or deluded mind is more like it.

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

-Hamas Charter

Again you have only quoted in part; again you have ignored the explanation of this verse.

And you accuse me of spin! You are the master of that art.

I'll leave you for now; more important things call for my attention than proving you wrong at every turn!

[dexterm]

Morch,

Europe has a serious role to play because is actually right next door to Israel. EU is 90 miles off its coast. It just doesn’t make economic sense to be off side with your neighbors. Natural market forces etc.

Lets indeed be realistic, the USA has no influence at all as an honest broker with AIPAC pulling the strings.

An economic collapse for the Palestinians you portend... ho ho ho..tell that to the Gazans! Israel has already engineered that. When you’ve got nothing, you’ve got nothing to lose.

Whatever he loopholes in sanctions...surely no sanctions at all and open trade would be much much better for Israel’s future.

[Ulysses G.]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

The Hamas charter does not call for the genocide of the Jews; anyone who reads it in full with an open mind can see that.

A dishonest or deluded mind is more like it.

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

-Hamas Charter

Again you have only quoted in part; again you have ignored the explanation of this verse.

No cigar for honesty Spinmeister. The explanation of this verse is darn obvious to anyone that reads it and there is plenty more if one reads the whole thing. The charter of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas is a deeply anti-semitic document and everyone knows it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Love the Jewish response. "The homes of the perpetrators will be destroyed". And no doubt in a few more years Jewish homes built in their place. Gradual displacement of the Palestine population.

Far as I'm aware, the demolitions do not denote losing ownership of land. Many a time the house is rebuilt pretty quickly (despite it being officially forbidden). Your "no doubt" is actually quite doubtful.

Whether you're right or not about rebuilding, it's totally beside the point. The act of demolishing the home of a family in revenge for the act of one family member is reprehensible and criminal.

Barking up the wrong tree.

As I have posted elsewhere (even yesterday, if memory serves) I do not see house demolitions as either morally right or as a very effective deterrent.

I was simply trying to lower the level of hyperbole that runs rampant when people discuss these issues. House demolitions is

a bad enough tool to bash Israel with (and rightly so), no need to add nonsense on top.

[up-country_sinclair]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

The Hamas charter does not call for the genocide of the Jews; anyone who reads it in full with an open mind can see that.

A dishonest or deluded mind is more like it.

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

-Hamas Charter

OK, let's go over this again. Do you speak and read Arabic? If not, who translated this? The IDF, JDL or AIPAC?

You're usually quite diligent about posting links to the information you cite (albeit rabidly pro-occupier), but you've conveniently neglected to provide a link for this. Why is that?

Due to your increasing issues with credibility on this and other topics, it's hard to take this post seriously.

But thanks for including "-Hamas Charter". It makes it seem quite official.

[Morch]

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..

Sounds more like wishful thinking or a delusional fantasy. It is no secret that boycotting Israel has been a dismal failure.

It may all be very well sitting by the Med eating falafel because overseas steak is too expensive at a farewell meal with your son or daughter off to years of military service, then keeping a wary eye out in the parking lot for a suicide driver. Maybe double up the occasion with your friends returning to live in the States for brighter prospects than the isolated moribund cul de sac that Israel will become.

But wouldn’t Israel’s future be much better if after a just peace agreement recognized by the whole Arab and wider world, that Tel Aviv became the financial, industrial, technological and cultural hub of the entire Middle East, construction rocketing, tourism flourishing, parents waving their kids off to University rather than military service, EU membership on the horizon next year for increased trade prospects, Jewish migrants queueing up for their place in the sun, living in peace with your neighbors without fear.

Yeah... that’s my fantasy!

That's just another instance of black and white thinking.

In your view its either Israel goes down the drain or prospers in bliss. Most realistic scenarios are somewhere in between such extreme options and less clear cut.

There is of course, no reference or acknowledgement that effective global sanctions against Israel are not currently in the cards, nothing said about the Palestinian's side living up to their side of an imagined peace, no consideration that IS may represent a major factor in the way this conflict will be perceived in later years, no reflection on how such a state of affairs might effect the Palestinians.

Might be better to set the sights lower, aim for realistic goals, and not spread illusions all around.

[Jingthing]

The Israel demonizers can't help it. They have irrationally romanticized Palestinians as oppressed third world brown people and Jews as white first world evil white colonizers. They are simply incapable of seeing this situation clearly not black and white and not something that isn't some kind of Che Guevara comic book.

Netanyahu is correct to suggest the Palestinian education system needs to be changed ... teach those Arab babies a more realistic and fair history of the Jewish people that they are really going to have to accept as their neighbors.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited November 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

The Palestinian DEMONIZERS can't help themselves. They have an inherent victim mentality. And they are simply incapable of seeing the situation clearly, and this is likely due to their ANTI-SEMITIC feelings against Muslims is that the overwhelming majority of the posters on these threads are expressing their outrage about the methodical ethnic cleansing that that is being carried out by the occupiers.

But it's good that we can identify them for what they are through their HATE SPEECH.

Edited November 21, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Morch]

Morch,

Europe has a serious role to play because is actually right next door to Israel. EU is 90 miles off its coast. It just doesn’t make economic sense to be off side with your neighbors. Natural market forces etc.

Lets indeed be realistic, the USA has no influence at all as an honest broker with AIPAC pulling the strings.

An economic collapse for the Palestinians you portend... ho ho ho..tell that to the Gazans! Israel has already engineered that. When you’ve got nothing, you’ve got nothing to lose.

Whatever he loopholes in sanctions...surely no sanctions at all and open trade would be much much better for Israel’s future.

There is no EU member state 90 miles off Israel's coast, Cyprus is about 170 miles. Cyprus is not THE EU in any meaningful way. Israel been "off side" with nearer neighbors, and potential markets for decades - not exactly a new situation. Again, you refer to what role Europe ought to play, while I'm concentrating on what role it can play.

That the USA may not be acceptable by the Palestinians as an objective mediator is not contested. It simply does not bestow legitimacy on the EU to act in this role, as Israel most probably will not accept on the same grounds.

I do not portend an economic collapse of anyone, simply pointing out that the economies of both are tied together. Thought this might actually provoke some interesting thoughts, but rather, got one of them point scoring one liners. Be that as it may, the Palestinians are not only Gazans, and even the little bit Gazan's got is effected by Israel's situation. Considering that the Palestinian economy is dependent on Israel's, economically bringing the latter to its knees, might mean a harsh blow for the Palestinians as a by product.

Of course a golden future is preferable, but your sales pitch is over the top. It is not simply a matter of signing a paper and everything will be alright. It is not evident that the threat of utter isolation and economic collapse are a reality.

[Morch]

The Israel demonizers can't help it. They have irrationally romanticized Palestinians as oppressed third world brown people and Jews as white first world evil white colonizers. They are simply incapable of seeing this situation clearly not black and white and not something that isn't some kind of Che Guevara comic book.

Netanyahu is correct to suggest the Palestinian education system needs to be changed ... teach those Arab babies a more realistic and fair history of the Jewish people that they are really going to have to accept as their neighbors.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well, suppose the Palestinians accept this, how does one measures these sort of thing?

How many years would it take?

Peace accords are rarely signed between nations who got no issues between them.

The no issues and normalization parts come after the agreement, and take a long while.

The observation that the Palestinian attitude and policy ought to be different, or indeed, be changed, is legit.

Making it a condition for negotiations is an intentional exercise in futility.

[Jingthing]

Good questions but you and I both know they won't accept it in the first place. But it is still important to stop teaching hate.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Ulysses G.]

OK, let's go over this again. Do you speak and read Arabic? If not, who translated this? The IDF, JDL or AIPAC?

The old "bad translation" scam. Everyone translates it the same way, including the Palestinians!

http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/85/3715-sahih-bukhari-volume-004-book-052-hadith-number-177.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

“Let them destroy the houses, but we want the bodies back. We will not calm down until we bury them,” said Fatma Abu Jamal, the mother of Uday.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

Edited November 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

“Let them destroy the houses, but we want the bodies back. We will not calm down until we bury them,” said Fatma Abu Jamal, the mother of Uday.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

This reminds me of the disputed story of the General in PI in WWII. Unable to gain traction in their conflict with muslims at the time he was rumoured to have captured a bunch, tied them up, dipped bullets in pig's blood in front of them, and execute all but one. The last was released to ostensibly inform the others. As the story goes this significantly turned the tables. For my purposes it is unimportant if the story is true.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1494110/Anger-over-pigs-blood-bullets-poster.html

Its clear that the very foundation of the entire Israeli Palestinian issue is religious (contrary to what apologists would assert). Denying martyrs a path to heaven seems like a valid deterrent. I dont think it will work however, but I can see the urge to want to try this. As muslims are supposed to be buried in a certain manner and time this could be quite upsetting. I think though that some fatwa or such will mitigate Israel's effort. After all, religion has lately been tortured by muslims in the region, making it conform to every secular worldly interest they have. When Islam does not speak directly to the damage they wish to inflict they employ exegesis gynmastics to make Islam apply. Why wouldn't Israel note this and find in this mechanism some means to respond?

[Jingthing]

Yes, the religious element cannot be denied.

I think going into the pork area is a bridge too far especially considering that observant Jews also have a pork taboo.

What makes me think that Israel will break down and release the bodies is just a realistic assessment that the deterrent factor won't balance out the blowback factor.

But we'll see.

Remember what the U.S. did with the body of Bin Laden?

Edited November 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[7by7]

The issue is certainly religious as far as the Israeli side is concerned.

How many times have we seen in all topics on this issue posts from Jingthing and others declaring that Israel is, and must remain, a Jewish state?

Fine, let them have it; but let the Palestinians have their state as well.

But it wont happen while Netanyahu and Likud have any say in the matter: The Hateful Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State

The Hamas charter, of course, does more than just reject Israel as a sovereign political entity. It’s a vile document that echoes some of the worst anti-Semitic tropes of the modern era*. But on the central question of one side denying the other’s legitimacy — it’s hard to ignore the symmetry between Likud – the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – and Hamas.

*Before anyone leaps on this, remember that I have always said that there is much in the Hamas charter which I find reprehensible.

The piece continues

Some defenders of Israel become indignant at the mention of these realities as scurrilous and spurious because the Likud platform quoted above is just an “old” statement of principles not reflective of the Party’s actions in power. But by that logic, the Hamas Charter, written over 25 years ago, cannot be said to be the sole controlling document of that organization, since much more recent statements and actions by its leadership have, at least some times, included an expressed willingness to pursue a long-term agreement with Israel. Furthermore, Hamas also agreed to join the Palestinian Authority in a unity government that accepts all previous PA agreements with Israel.

When will Likud accept the right of Palestine to exist?

[Morch]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

“Let them destroy the houses, but we want the bodies back. We will not calm down until we bury them,” said Fatma Abu Jamal, the mother of Uday.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

I am almost certain that the main reason for the delay was wishing to avoid having the funeral processions on Friday (prayer day for Muslims), and run the risk of riots. The part about the Israeli government "reportedly mulling the possibility of not delivering them to their families for burial, as a punitive measure" does not sound quite on the spot. Some of the hardliner right wing ministers might wish it, but it is doubtful this is an agreed upon course of action.

On the other hand, one can almost count on some idiotic notion by a politician to start the flames - there was a report Israel's new minister of the interior instructed his office to check the possibility of nullifying the residency and social rights of East Jerusalem Arabs which encourage and support terrorism. Some might say that this is the right thing to do, but regardless, it can be counted upon to make the current situation worse.

[Morch]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

“Let them destroy the houses, but we want the bodies back. We will not calm down until we bury them,” said Fatma Abu Jamal, the mother of Uday.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

This reminds me of the disputed story of the General in PI in WWII. Unable to gain traction in their conflict with muslims at the time he was rumoured to have captured a bunch, tied them up, dipped bullets in pig's blood in front of them, and execute all but one. The last was released to ostensibly inform the others. As the story goes this significantly turned the tables. For my purposes it is unimportant if the story is true.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1494110/Anger-over-pigs-blood-bullets-poster.html

Its clear that the very foundation of the entire Israeli Palestinian issue is religious (contrary to what apologists would assert). Denying martyrs a path to heaven seems like a valid deterrent. I dont think it will work however, but I can see the urge to want to try this. As muslims are supposed to be buried in a certain manner and time this could be quite upsetting. I think though that some fatwa or such will mitigate Israel's effort. After all, religion has lately been tortured by muslims in the region, making it conform to every secular worldly interest they have. When Islam does not speak directly to the damage they wish to inflict they employ exegesis gynmastics to make Islam apply. Why wouldn't Israel note this and find in this mechanism some means to respond?

This is exactly the sort of thing that fans the flames and solves nothing. Desecrating bodies? That's the answer? Even if one was to ignore moral issues - is there any conceivable way something along this line will not raise a fury all over the Muslim world? Or for that matter, probably in any civilized country? That's one hell of a way to make sure this conflict keeps the same level of intensity (if not worse) for years to come. And then there's Israel's large Arab minority, can't imagine they'll be thrilled.

[arjunadawn]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

“Let them destroy the houses, but we want the bodies back. We will not calm down until we bury them,” said Fatma Abu Jamal, the mother of Uday.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

This reminds me of the disputed story of the General in PI in WWII. Unable to gain traction in their conflict with muslims at the time he was rumoured to have captured a bunch, tied them up, dipped bullets in pig's blood in front of them, and execute all but one. The last was released to ostensibly inform the others. As the story goes this significantly turned the tables. For my purposes it is unimportant if the story is true.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1494110/Anger-over-pigs-blood-bullets-poster.html

Its clear that the very foundation of the entire Israeli Palestinian issue is religious (contrary to what apologists would assert). Denying martyrs a path to heaven seems like a valid deterrent. I dont think it will work however, but I can see the urge to want to try this. As muslims are supposed to be buried in a certain manner and time this could be quite upsetting. I think though that some fatwa or such will mitigate Israel's effort. After all, religion has lately been tortured by muslims in the region, making it conform to every secular worldly interest they have. When Islam does not speak directly to the damage they wish to inflict they employ exegesis gynmastics to make Islam apply. Why wouldn't Israel note this and find in this mechanism some means to respond?

This is exactly the sort of thing that fans the flames and solves nothing.

Desecrating bodies? That's the answer?

Even if one was to ignore moral issues - is there any conceivable way something along this line will not raise a fury all

over the Muslim world? Or for that matter, probably in any civilized country? That's one hell of a way to make sure this

conflict keeps the same level of intensity (if not worse) for years to come. And then there's Israel's large Arab minority,

can't imagine they'll be thrilled.

i read nothing about desecrating bodies. i did note i dont think it will work but intentionally left off so as to not fall down the rabbit hole. regardless of the pretext: morque, autopsy, etc., the aim is clearly to make terrorists think twice about whether the bus actually departs for paradise or hell. "fans the flames?" i am unsure such a thing fans flames. it seems any calculated effort to rebuke islamic terrorists "fans the flames."

From every corner of the earth, in countless mosques, explosives and arms are commonly stored and training carried out. Islam marches no less in the Levant and upon Israel than other places; indeed, it marchs primarily to destroy jews under the color of divine mandate and scripture. You cant fan flames much further than that. Conceeding the intellectual battle space to such a virlulent ideology enables exactly these same kind of statements from national policy perspectives- the US redacting the notion of Islamist/Jihadists/etc from every law enforcment manual and the endless stream of "peace in our time" chamberlain concessions to a declared, warring people upon civilization. "Fan the flames?" A bit, but it is hardly relevant beside the foundational imperative to obliterate every single jew alive and erase from all histroy evidence they ever were. This is the foundation of this conflict and any arguments to the contrary simply ignore the elephant in the room.

I dont think it will work for a bit of the same reason as you- fan flames a bit- but more importantly, IMO, islam is evidencing a very elastic exegesis of islam and very broadly applying it for a host of war footing like actions around the world. They will just declare a way around the time allotment required for muslim burial. I support the choice in principle. Tactically it will not work though.

[Morch]

Interesting related issue developing.

Israel is holding the bodies of the dead terrorists responsible for the synagogue terror attack.

The house demolitions of terrorists don't seem to really be a deterrent.

Could not returning the bodies of terrorists be a better one?

There is also the issue of how funerals of "martyrs" basically become rallies to encourage more Palestinians towards violence.

Yes, I can imagine the argument, this will only make them madder.

The funerals don't make them madder?

Israel should sit back while such funerals become propaganda rallies to egg on more terrorists?

I don't have the answer, but this certainly shows how bad things are now that Israel is even considering not returning the bodies.

I'm guessing they will eventually, but don't know.

**quoted removed - too many of them**

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mothers-of-har-nof-synagogue-terrorists-demand-their-bodies/

This reminds me of the disputed story of the General in PI in WWII. Unable to gain traction in their conflict with muslims at the time he was rumoured to have captured a bunch, tied them up, dipped bullets in pig's blood in front of them, and execute all but one. The last was released to ostensibly inform the others. As the story goes this significantly turned the tables. For my purposes it is unimportant if the story is true.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1494110/Anger-over-pigs-blood-bullets-poster.html

Its clear that the very foundation of the entire Israeli Palestinian issue is religious (contrary to what apologists would assert). Denying martyrs a path to heaven seems like a valid deterrent. I dont think it will work however, but I can see the urge to want to try this. As muslims are supposed to be buried in a certain manner and time this could be quite upsetting. I think though that some fatwa or such will mitigate Israel's effort. After all, religion has lately been tortured by muslims in the region, making it conform to every secular worldly interest they have. When Islam does not speak directly to the damage they wish to inflict they employ exegesis gynmastics to make Islam apply. Why wouldn't Israel note this and find in this mechanism some means to respond?

This is exactly the sort of thing that fans the flames and solves nothing.

Desecrating bodies? That's the answer?

Even if one was to ignore moral issues - is there any conceivable way something along this line will not raise a fury all

over the Muslim world? Or for that matter, probably in any civilized country? That's one hell of a way to make sure this

conflict keeps the same level of intensity (if not worse) for years to come. And then there's Israel's large Arab minority,

can't imagine they'll be thrilled.

i read nothing about desecrating bodies. i did note i dont think it will work but intentionally left off so as to not fall down the rabbit hole. regardless of the pretext: morque, autopsy, etc., the aim is clearly to make terrorists think twice about whether the bus actually departs for paradise or hell. "fans the flames?" i am unsure such a thing fans flames. it seems any calculated effort to rebuke islamic terrorists "fans the flames."

From every corner of the earth, in countless mosques, explosives and arms are commonly stored and training carried out. Islam marches no less in the Levant and upon Israel than other places; indeed, it marchs primarily to destroy jews under the color of divine mandate and scripture. You cant fan flames much further than that. Conceeding the intellectual battle space to such a virlulent ideology enables exactly these same kind of statements from national policy perspectives- the US redacting the notion of Islamist/Jihadists/etc from every law enforcment manual and the endless stream of "peace in our time" chamberlain concessions to a declared, warring people upon civilization. "Fan the flames?" A bit, but it is hardly relevant beside the foundational imperative to obliterate every single jew alive and erase from all histroy evidence they ever were. This is the foundation of this conflict and any arguments to the contrary simply ignore the elephant in the room.

I dont think it will work for a bit of the same reason as you- fan flames a bit- but more importantly, IMO, islam is evidencing a very elastic exegesis of islam and very broadly applying it for a host of war footing like actions around the world. They will just declare a way around the time allotment required for muslim burial. I support the choice in principle. Tactically it will not work though.

Well, trying to keep within the scope of this topic - I do not believe that this sort of thing contributes anything to either deterring terrorism or cooling down things (mind, I keep my hopes low, no "peace in our time" nonsense). For me, an extra day without incidents and casualties is a good day. No issues with decisive and even ruthless measures to curb terrorism, as long as they are effective, do not constitute tit-for-tat, and acknowledge the need for some moral boundries (while understanding that ours is an imperfect world...).

I doubt that someone's out to commit a suicide bombing (or any equivalent terror act with high chances of getting killed himself), would be deterred by this. Religious loopholes are easy. The rational thinking that this theological setback will somehow make a potential terrorist reconsider is not applicable. Someone already willing to go that far is a couple of step away from common rationality. In a twisted way, applying such a policy could even increase the motivation to fight among some.

This is not about appeasing anyone. This is about being smart. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by this sort of thing, and a whole lot of potential to makes things worse. Israel got a large Muslim minority of its own, which for the most part is not being the domestic threat it could be. What good would pushing them do?

[arjunadawn]

This reminds me of the disputed story of the General in PI in WWII. Unable to gain traction in their conflict with muslims at the time he was rumoured to have captured a bunch, tied them up, dipped bullets in pig's blood in front of them, and execute all but one. The last was released to ostensibly inform the others. As the story goes this significantly turned the tables. For my purposes it is unimportant if the story is true.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1494110/Anger-over-pigs-blood-bullets-poster.html

Its clear that the very foundation of the entire Israeli Palestinian issue is religious (contrary to what apologists would assert). Denying martyrs a path to heaven seems like a valid deterrent. I dont think it will work however, but I can see the urge to want to try this. As muslims are supposed to be buried in a certain manner and time this could be quite upsetting. I think though that some fatwa or such will mitigate Israel's effort. After all, religion has lately been tortured by muslims in the region, making it conform to every secular worldly interest they have. When Islam does not speak directly to the damage they wish to inflict they employ exegesis gynmastics to make Islam apply. Why wouldn't Israel note this and find in this mechanism some means to respond?

This is exactly the sort of thing that fans the flames and solves nothing.

Desecrating bodies? That's the answer?

Even if one was to ignore moral issues - is there any conceivable way something along this line will not raise a fury all

over the Muslim world? Or for that matter, probably in any civilized country? That's one hell of a way to make sure this

conflict keeps the same level of intensity (if not worse) for years to come. And then there's Israel's large Arab minority,

can't imagine they'll be thrilled.

i read nothing about desecrating bodies. i did note i dont think it will work but intentionally left off so as to not fall down the rabbit hole. regardless of the pretext: morque, autopsy, etc., the aim is clearly to make terrorists think twice about whether the bus actually departs for paradise or hell. "fans the flames?" i am unsure such a thing fans flames. it seems any calculated effort to rebuke islamic terrorists "fans the flames."

From every corner of the earth, in countless mosques, explosives and arms are commonly stored and training carried out. Islam marches no less in the Levant and upon Israel than other places; indeed, it marchs primarily to destroy jews under the color of divine mandate and scripture. You cant fan flames much further than that. Conceeding the intellectual battle space to such a virlulent ideology enables exactly these same kind of statements from national policy perspectives- the US redacting the notion of Islamist/Jihadists/etc from every law enforcment manual and the endless stream of "peace in our time" chamberlain concessions to a declared, warring people upon civilization. "Fan the flames?" A bit, but it is hardly relevant beside the foundational imperative to obliterate every single jew alive and erase from all histroy evidence they ever were. This is the foundation of this conflict and any arguments to the contrary simply ignore the elephant in the room.

I dont think it will work for a bit of the same reason as you- fan flames a bit- but more importantly, IMO, islam is evidencing a very elastic exegesis of islam and very broadly applying it for a host of war footing like actions around the world. They will just declare a way around the time allotment required for muslim burial. I support the choice in principle. Tactically it will not work though.

Well, trying to keep within the scope of this topic - I do not believe that this sort of thing contributes anything to either

deterring terrorism or cooling down things (mind, I keep my hopes low, no "peace in our time" nonsense). For me, a

extra day without incidents and casualties is a good day. No issues with decisive and even ruthless measures to curb

terrorism, as long as they are effective, do not constitute tit-for-tat, and acknowledge the need for some moral boundries

(while understanding that ours is an imperfect world...).

I doubt that someone's out to commit a suicide bombing (or any equivalent terror act with high chances of getting killed

himself), would be deterred by this. Religious loopholes are easy. The rational thinking that this theological setback will

somehow make a potential terrorist reconsider is not applicable. Someone already willing to go that far is a couple of

step away from common rationality. In a twisted way, applying such a policy could even increase the motivation to fight

among some.

This is not about appeasing anyone. This is about being smart. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by this sort of

thing, and a whole lot of potential to makes things worse. Israel got a large Muslim minority of its own, which for the

most part is not being the domestic threat it could be. What good would pushing them do?

I think you and I are in agreement- mostly, though arriving from different perspectives. I am unsure this will produce the end they hope it will: deterence.

[Jingthing]

That makes sense to me ... delay with the bodies for timing of riots rather than never delivering. Of course holding them would inflame which is why I never thought they really would be held.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Hamas acting just as you'd expect them to.

Celebrating their 27th anniversary.

Note the bloody rabbis.

The effigy being burned was a rabbi image. Not a politician.

No, they don't hate Jews ... sure thing.

Note the map of "Palestine"