Abuse against women in Thailand on the rise: study

[smotherb]

TheyCallmeScooter

Although it was difficult to follow your erratic rhetoric, I thought I had it until you said, Now that I've shown you how almost everyone is emotionally insane . . . Then, I tried to recoup, but you through me again when the topic became child abuse; silly me, I was still thinking abuse of women. Try it again please, but slowly.

[smotherb]

Caitrin says,

Scooter, I can't parse a single thing you said. Sounds like some sort of mad ad lib.

Horsewell, you're missing the point here, the topic here is violence against women by men, not violence against men. Stop re-centering the narrative.

Are you a woman? No? It's not about you. Are you a man who commits violence against women? No? It's not about you.

I sure do disagree with two of the three things you said.

Not looking at the obverse when troubleshooting a problem frequently prolongs finding a solution. Gender conflict is the issue. Men may abuse women for some of the same reasons women abuse men.

I am neither a woman nor a man who commits violence against women. Why, is this discussion only for victims and perpetrators?

[Caitrin]

I have no idea what BritManToo thinks he's getting at by bringing up ladyboys, which is a group encompassing many potential gender identities, all of them non-Western conceptualisations of gender. Some may view themselves as a type of man, some may view themselves as a type of woman, still others may view themselves as some other gender identity. We're not discussing that either, and we're certainly not discussing "aggressiveness" by some individuals who fall under that plethora of potential gender identities.

Smotherb, the problem is not gender conflict. This discussion isn't for only victims and perpetrators. No one said that. I said it's about women abused by men, and the men who do the abusing. It's not about men in general (therefore, there's no need to #notallmen the conversation), and it's not about violence against men (the vast majority of which is committed by other men). This is about the abuse of women by men, which is a major social problem reinforced consistently in ways both subtle and obvious. Although cases of men being abused by women do exist, and indeed, are often underreported (again, due to toxic masculinity, the idea it's unmanly to report an abuser if the abuser is a woman), all of those cases are still a drop in the ocean of abuse flowing the other direction. Therefore cries of "what about the menz" are derailing.

This isn't that topic. You want to talk about that topic? Awesome! Let's do it! I'm all for ending any type of violence or abuse, but not here. If it is such a serious issue, one you feel so passionate about, then let's give it its own space. Let's give it the attention it deserves. AND YET, whenever this is suggested, I never, ever see it happen, because ultimately "what about the menz" is never really about solving the issues claimed. It's always just code for "let's stop talking about the womenz."

Edited December 1, 2014 by Caitrin

[BritManToo]

I have no idea what BritManToo thinks he's getting at by bringing up ladyboys, which is a group encompassing many potential gender identities, all of them non-Western conceptualisations of gender. Some may view themselves as a type of man, some may view themselves as a type of woman, still others may view themselves as some other gender identity. We're not discussing that either, and we're certainly not discussing "aggressiveness" by some individuals who fall under that plethora of potential gender identities.

You said I had never suffered sexual harassment or abuse from a man.

I merely pointed out that I had (by a ladyboy).

Ladyboys are men, no matter what you imagine them to be, they are men.

Putting on a dress, or having a bit of cosmetic surgery does not change their gender.

There are only two human genders in existence. Men and women, defined by chromosomes.

[Caitrin]

Oh wow, misogyny and transphobia. I bet you're a real delight at parties.

Not only is there an entire gender spectrum, there's also a "sex" spectrum which involves a complex interplay between chromosomes, fetal development, external hormones during pregnancy, internal hormone levels, hormone receptivity, etc.

You do know that your chromosome statement is immediately shown to be false with women who have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, right? CAIS women have XY chromosomes, but they are often not discovered to have XY chromosomes until issues with puberty. And that's not even discussing XXY, XXXXY, XO, or all sorts of other variations. And that's just chromosomes.

Anyhow gender and sex are distinct social constructs, although both obviously have physiological components, how we choose to interpret both gender and sex are a matter of sociocultural context.

If you were harassed by a person who identifies as a ladyboy, you'd have to ask that person what their gender identity is. And then you would respect it, because otherwise, you're just being a jerk.

And no, I didn't say anything about you suffering violence, harassment, or sexual assault from a "man." I said you weren't a woman who has suffered these things from a man, and you aren't.

[BritManToo]

And no, I didn't say anything about you suffering violence, harassment, or sexual assault from a "man." I said you weren't a woman who has suffered these things from a man, and you aren't.

So if you want to limit this thread to just abused women, it's just you posting to yourself then?

(Don't think any men who abuse women will want to confess on this thread)

[forumuser10]

forumuser10, on 28 Nov 2014 - 19:10, said:

There are mainly 2 reasons why some Thai ladies say they do not like Thai men.

1. It is because these particular ladies were very bad at choosing a reliable and good guy, the result is, they end up with a child/chidren without a father.

2. Because of this, some of these ladies end up trying to flirt and interact with foreigners. So in order to make to make the interaction as smooth as possible, and to make it more comfortable for the foreigner, she also makes sure he understands, "she only like foreigner, not Thai man."

Please; that maybe your opinion. Where is your supporting evidence for a comment like that. If its an opinion say so. Don't make a statement without some support

I have no "evidence", that is, there are no scientific studies to back it up that I know of, but my conclusion is based on many years of living here, with a mix of common sense.

[forumuser10]

I think it is more a case of jealousy, insecurity, and inferiority. Let's face it, women have the marvelous product. Men have an insatiable desire to get some of that product. Men realize they can be manipulated by that product and the weaker, mentally challenged, cretins among us react by using brute force--the only real superiority they may have over women.

And there was me thinking my only real superiority was my wallet.

Brute force, not from me, I'm weak, and they use knives.

Most Thai women are much younger and stronger than the elderly foreigners they live with.

Not to mention, many women (worldwide) seem to actually prefer abusive,violent and dangerous men.

Most of the wimpy guys spouting feminist nonsense on this thread wouldn't stand a hope in hell of bagging an attractive woman.

(I'm including myself here, far too weak and tame for most of the women I really wanted).

If women really wanted to stop domestic violence aimed at them, simple answer, stop choosing violent and abusive men as partners. It's not like most of these guys ever kept their violent nature secret.

"Not to mention, many women (worldwide) seem to actually prefer abusive,violent and dangerous men."

Probably the most offence comment of the entire thread?

You can be offended as much as you want, it does not, however change the truth.

[forumuser10]

the main problem is the lack of education which results in more violence, especially against women. the thai government should address this issue instead.

This country is more violent than some other countries, in all areas, it is not in particular directed towards women, that is just feminist BS.

[forumuser10]

or...

"people are always going on about the poor in society.....what about the RICH??? they have problems too you know!" - (my heart bleeds)

Is it safe to say that you believe in the fallacy that most victims in society are females and most males are the predator?

If so, wake up.

like so many of the posts here they are made without any reference to evidence or critical thought.

Do you realise that is a fallacious argument, a non sequitur?

So you are saying, just because some other posts where posted without evidence and lack of critical thinking, it is ok for you to do it?

[Caitrin]

And no, I didn't say anything about you suffering violence, harassment, or sexual assault from a "man." I said you weren't a woman who has suffered these things from a man, and you aren't.

So if you want to limit this thread to just abused women, it's just you posting to yourself then?

(Don't think any men who abuse women will want to confess on this thread)

*sigh* You're not reading carefully, sir. This isn't about who may participate in the topic, it's about what the topic actually is. Everyone can (and should!) participate in the discussion. The problem with your statements (which are essentially "but, men!" statements) is that they are off-topic and therefore derailing.

If you would like to discuss issues of violence against women, especially that of violence against women in Thailand (this is TV, afterall), by men, you are free to do so. You're encouraged to do so! However, you weren't really doing that. You were concerned with "what about the menz?" and blaming the victims.

Not cool, yo.

[BritManToo]

If you would like to discuss issues of violence against women, especially that of violence against women in Thailand (this is TV, afterall), by men, you are free to do so. You're encouraged to do so! However, you weren't really doing that. You were concerned with "what about the menz?" and blaming the victims.

Not cool, yo.

Most of the women in Thailand with abusive male partners, chose them because of their violent nature.

Seems silly to choose a drug dealer or gang member for a partner then complain about the violence.

It's inherent in the partner.

Now if they chose a meek and mild mannered librarian as a husband, and he gave them a beating, I would understand the complaint.

PS.

Please lay off the feminazi rhetoric (menz is a province in Ethiopia), that isn't cool either.

Edited December 1, 2014 by BritManToo

[Caitrin]

Yes, because only criminals abuse female partners. *eyeroll* And even it was true, again, you're blaming the victim. Even if you marry a criminal, you don't deserve the abuse. That's the bottom line here. And guess what? Nice Guys turn out to be abusers all the time. If not physically abusive, mentally abusive. And usually adept at manipulation and gaslighting.

Feminazi is a term coined by Rush Limbaugh, and if you want that association hanging around your neck, that's on you, buddy. Feminism is pretty darn cool, and I'll happily continue to offer opinions which differentiate me from a doormat:

[forumuser10]

Yes, because only criminals abuse female partners. *eyeroll* And even it was true, again, you're blaming the victim. Even if you marry a criminal, you don't deserve the abuse. That's the bottom line here. And guess what? Nice Guys turn out to be abusers all the time. If not physically abusive, mentally abusive.

Female needs to be responsible for their actions just as much as males.

When a female choose a <deleted> up macho partner, or an otherwise violent partner, it is her choice. ONLY her choice!

We see this all the time, females portrayed as helpless victims, just like the way we view mentally retarded people, or children.

Regular adult females MUST be responsible for their own actions. It´s about time!

[Caitrin]

Women very much should be responsible for their actions. Indeed, women should be allowed to have agency in the first place which would allow them to be responsible for their actions.

However, it is never acceptable to visit violence or abuse upon someone. Now, if a woman comes up and attacks you, go right ahead, you have the right of self-defense. And hopefully that woman is going to go to jail when the cops finally intervene.

We're not talking about that here. Crimes against women are not caused by women, so women do not need to be responsible for their actions. Let's say I was a man, and I wanted to go a convenience store in the sketchiest neighborhood around because they have something I like. Let's say they are the only ones in the city who sell an instant ramen cup I love. Now, I know the crime rate is horrendously high. I also know it's 3am on a Saturday, and I'm not carrying any kind of weapon. But I really want that ramen. Now, I go and get that ramen. And then I am jumped, roughed up, and my wallet stolen.

I am still not responsible for my own victimisation. My poor judgement does not mean I deserved to be jumped, roughed up, and stolen from. Those decisions were still the decisions of those who chose of their own free will to harm me.

This is the same. Abusers are responsible for their abuse, no one else. Just because a woman enters into a relationship with an abuser does not suddenly mean she brought the abuse on herself. The abuser still has to make the choice to abuse. That means the responsibility falls entirely on the abuser. To suggest otherwise is to blame the victim for her own victimisation. And that is wrong.

[BritManToo]

Feminazi is a term coined by Rush Limbaugh, and if you want that association hanging around your neck, that's on you, buddy. Feminism is pretty darn cool, and I'll happily continue to offer opinions which differentiate me from a doormat:

From 'Rush' wiki,

"Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society."

Seems about right.

[Caitrin]

Ah, so you don't just parrot Rush, you actually agree with him. You should have just said so immediately so people could stop taking you even the tiniest bit seriously.

I'll be off then. Toodaloo.

[Wilsonandson]

What about women who abuse men? My Thai wife often scolds me for nothing and sometime shes gone into a fit of rage in which she has thrown all sorts of kitchen implements at my head. Yes its no joke, stand up hen pecked men and be counted, we shall not be bullied anymore.

[forumuser10]

Women very much should be responsible for their actions. Indeed, women should be allowed to have agency in the first place which would allow them to be responsible for their actions.

However, it is never acceptable to visit violence or abuse upon someone. Now, if a woman comes up and attacks you, go right ahead, you have the right of self-defense. And hopefully that woman is going to go to jail when the cops finally intervene.

We're not talking about that here. Crimes against women are not caused by women, so women do not need to be responsible for their actions.

We are not talking about random violence against women on the street. If we are talking about that, men are about 100 times more likely to be the victim than a woman.

When we talk about violence against women, it is almost always a domestic problem. And in that case women MUST choose a partner that is NOT violent and criminal.

95% of all the guys out there are NOT criminal, nor violent.

Women, take responsibility for your action, choose a good guy, not a criminal dangerous casanova, with major drug problems.

[wilcopops]

this thread has revealed that some expats have positively "neanderthal" views about women.

(I would now like to apologise to Neanderthals for besmirching their good name by comparing them to these animals.)

[wilcopops]

Thailand the "hub" of sexism...a sexist's paradise.

[Caitrin]

What about women who abuse men? My Thai wife often scolds me for nothing and sometime shes gone into a fit of rage in which she has thrown all sorts of kitchen implements at my head. Yes its no joke, stand up hen pecked men and be counted, we shall not be bullied anymore.

Then what she has done is a crime, go report it. If you want to talk about women abusing men, start your own topic. I think it's totally important to talk about it, but why not give it its own space?

Mr. Forumuser wrote:

We are not talking about random violence against women on the street. If we are talking about that, men are about 100 times more likely to be the victim than a woman.

When we talk about violence against women, it is almost always a domestic problem. And in that case women MUST choose a partner that is NOT violent and criminal.

95% of all the guys out there are NOT criminal, nor violent.

Women, take responsibility for your action, choose a good guy, not a criminal dangerous casanova, with major drug problems.

1) Yes, men are the victims of violence from men, but that is a separate issue.

2) No, actually, no it's not, unless you mean that abusers and attackers are often known to the victims. You're right that attacks from the bushes, while they do occur, are a tiny minority. Most abuse and most assaults occur from someone the woman is close to, yes partners, but also family members, friends, co-workers, etc. While I obviously agree women should not choose violent partners, if they do so, this does not justify abuse. See #4.

3) We know all about #notallmen, that isn't the point here. Try #yesallwomen instead.

4) You continue to conflate the action of choosing a bad partner with deserving of abuse. This is victim blaming. Stop it.

Most abusers are not known to be criminals, especially those who are on the margin, whose abuse is mostly verbal violence and not physical violence. Control, manipulation, and gaslighting. They don't have a rap sheet. And if they eventually do lose control and enter into physical violence, there won't be the kind of thuggish background you are trying to claim this about. Toxic masculinity and anger management issues create abusive partners without the sort of "obvious" "criminality" you claim here. Walk around a women's shelter and ask how many of them have men with criminal backgrounds, how many are drug dealers. I suspect you will find more drug users, especially men who struggle with alcohol, but you will also find men with no criminal backgrounds, no substance abuse problems, who appear like the perfect neighbor next door and have good work and outside social relationships--but who become different people with their partners. This is why many women stay; they think it will get better. They think they can change him. They think it's not that bad. You are reinforcing these views by suggesting that all abusive partners are members of the criminal element, and that women who choose partners who abuse are complicit in their abuse.

It's also worth noting that abuse does occur in homosexual relationships as well, although at a much smaller rate than heterosexual relationships. And you know how many of those abusers are part of the criminal element? Very few, and I base that on both personal experience and on research into queer relationships.

tl;dr Your claim that simply avoiding a criminal partner will avoid abuse is bullshit, your claim that having a criminal partner means you deserve the abuse is even worse, and even your claim that violence against women is largely within romantic relationships is a dangerous oversimplification.

[forumuser10]

We are not talking about random violence against women on the street. If we are talking about that, men are about 100 times more likely to be the victim than a woman.

When we talk about violence against women, it is almost always a domestic problem. And in that case women MUST choose a partner that is NOT violent and criminal.

95% of all the guys out there are NOT criminal, nor violent.

Women, take responsibility for your action, choose a good guy, not a criminal dangerous casanova, with major drug problems.

1) Yes, men are the victims of violence from men, but that is a separate issue.

2) No, actually, no it's not, unless you mean that abusers and attackers are often known to the victims. You're right that attacks from the bushes, while they do occur, are a tiny minority. Most abuse and most assaults occur from someone the woman is close to, yes partners, but also family members, friends, co-workers, etc. While I obviously agree women should not choose violent partners, if they do so, this does not justify abuse. See #4.

3) We know all about #notallmen, that isn't the point here. Try #yesallwomen instead.

4) You continue to conflate the action of choosing a bad partner with deserving of abuse. This is victim blaming. Stop it.

Most abusers are not known to be criminals, especially those who are on the margin, whose abuse is mostly verbal violence and not physical violence. Control, manipulation, and gaslighting. They don't have a rap sheet. And if they eventually do lose control and enter into physical violence, there won't be the kind of thuggish background you are trying to claim this about. Toxic masculinity and anger management issues create abusive partners without the sort of "obvious" "criminality" you claim here. Walk around a women's shelter and ask how many of them have men with criminal backgrounds, how many are drug dealers. I suspect you will find more drug users, especially men who struggle with alcohol, but you will also find men with no criminal backgrounds, no substance abuse problems, who appear like the perfect neighbor next door and have good work and outside social relationships--but who become different people with their partners. This is why many women stay; they think it will get better. They think they can change him. They think it's not that bad. You are reinforcing these views by suggesting that all abusive partners are members of the criminal element, and that women who choose partners who abuse are complicit in their abuse.

It's also worth noting that abuse does occur in homosexual relationships as well, although at a much smaller rate than heterosexual relationships. And you know how many of those abusers are part of the criminal element? Very few, and I base that on both personal experience and on research into queer relationships.

tl;dr Your claim that simply avoiding a criminal partner will avoid abuse is bullshit, your claim that having a criminal partner means you deserve the abuse is even worse, and even your claim that violence against women is largely within romantic relationships is a dangerous oversimplification.

I do not say they deserve to be abused. But in your and most of the rest of the western extreme feminism ideology you fail to see the whole picture of cycle of abuse and violence, and focus 100% on male responsibility, always, as this really is a gender issue when it is not. There are a small group of men who are very violent and abuse, not "men" as the whole sex.

There will always be a minor percentage of people who are downright evil and violent (both males and females, in case you did not know). What can we do to minimize the effect of these abusers? As women, you must choose your partners and who you associate more wisely, the same goes for males who wants to minimize the risks of abuse.

The MAJORITY if not all of the domestic violence will be eliminated if women choose not to be involved with the dangerous, "sexy", criminal, alcoholic, and violent males.

Edited December 2, 2014 by forumuser10

[BritManToo]

What about women who abuse men? My Thai wife often scolds me for nothing and sometime shes gone into a fit of rage in which she has thrown all sorts of kitchen implements at my head. Yes its no joke, stand up hen pecked men and be counted, we shall not be bullied anymore.

Then what she has done is a crime, go report it. If you want to talk about women abusing men, start your own topic. I think it's totally important to talk about it, but why not give it its own space?

.......

Most abusers are not known to be criminals, especially those who are on the margin, whose abuse is mostly verbal violence and not physical violence. Control, manipulation, and gaslighting.

You don't live in Thailand, and this is the Thai news forum, how is this your topic?

I live in Thailand, I participate in the news forum, I think it's mine more than yours.

Verbal violence, you gotta be joking, learn not to listen, 90% of everything spoken by a woman to her male partner is verbal abuse ...... we just don't care because we have learnt not to listen.

80% of your posts appears to be verbally abusing me, who can I report you to, to get you some jail time?

It really isn't our fault you have been sidelined by mainstream society (misquote of Mr. Rush), get a bit of exercise sometimes, 20KG will make a lot of difference to the way men view you (assuming your avatar is a real photo of you).

is gaslighting?

Not to mention this forum is 99.9% white guys, Most of us don't have the ability to abuse Thai women (verbally or physically).

We can't speak their language, they can't speak out language = no verbal abuse.

We are mainly old and weak, they are mainly young and strong = no physical abuse.

In fact (like many of us), I rarely communicate with Thai women at all, they visit me for a short time, I pay them and they leave.

Edited December 2, 2014 by BritManToo

[forumuser10]

Most abusers are not known to be criminals, especially those who are on the margin, whose abuse is mostly verbal violence and not physical violence. Control, manipulation, and gaslighting.

If we are mainly talking about verbal abuse probably 99% of all feminists out there would have to be sent to prison immediately. And after that, at least 50% of all verbal abusers are for sure females attacking men.

It is for example common practice, and totally accepted for wifes to sit around a table and bash males as a gender, meanwhile a similar scenario would never be accepted, where respected guys would sit around a table and bash females. This is by no means accepted practice in the society.

We see the mainstream media, in advertisement etc, it is totally acceptable to mock and bash males as being fat, dirty, lazy, stupid etc, and even make fun of violence against males, for example, attacking and mutilating the male sex organ, something what would be totally not accepted if it was directed towards females.

Edited December 2, 2014 by forumuser10

[BritManToo]

@Caitlin

Another one for you to rant on,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/781056-no-gender-december-deleted/

Enjoy!

[NativeSon360]

The Op's topic is "Abuse against women in Thailand", period! All these "know-it-all", verbose posters, don't know enough to stay focused on the topic issue. Huh?

Edited December 2, 2014 by NativeSon360

[BritManToo]

The Op's topic is "Abuse against women in Thailand", period! All these "know-it-all" posters, don't know enough to stay focused on the topic issue. Huh?

As I pointed out earlier, topic is a non event as Thais don't use this forum.

And most expat posters don't know any Thai men, and only know Thai women on a very superficial level.

What exactly do you expect us to do?

Have a big mutual hate Thai men bashing session?

[NativeSon360]

The Op's topic is "Abuse against women in Thailand", period! All these "know-it-all" posters, don't know enough to stay focused on the topic issue. Huh?

As I pointed out earlier, topic is a non event as Thais don't use this forum.

And most expat posters don't know any Thai men, and only know Thai women on a very superficial level.

What exactly do you expect us to do?

Have a big mutual hate Thai men bashing session?

Duh, what LOS are you living in? You'd be quite surprised @ the number of Thais who read, and post to this forum.

And, abuse against Thai women, is not a non-event. It's a daily reality of cultural life, in LOS. Thai women have been "terrorized" with the threat of death, (as a male means of getting a quick divorce, with impunity) in this Kingdom, for many centuries.

You don't need to know any Thai-guys, to know that much, especially if you know how to read, and then "pay attention" Cheers

Edited December 2, 2014 by NativeSon360

[NativeSon360]

The Op's topic is "Abuse against women in Thailand", period! All these "know-it-all" posters, don't know enough to stay focused on the topic issue. Huh?

As I pointed out earlier, topic is a non event as Thais don't use this forum.

And most expat posters don't know any Thai men, and only know Thai women on a very superficial level.

What exactly do you expect us to do?

Have a big mutual hate Thai men bashing session?

Duh, what LOS are you living in? You'd be quite surprised @ the number of Thais who read, and post to this forum.

And, abuse against Thai women, is not a non-event. It's a daily reality of cultural life, in LOS. Thai women have been "terrorized" with the threat of death, (as a male means of getting a quick divorce, with impunity) in this Kingdom, for many centuries.

You don't need to know any Thai-guys, to know that much, especially if you know how to read, and then "pay attention" Cheers

In addition, I don't need to bad-mouth, or bash Thai-menfolk, in that regard. Their own history of (pre-Buddhist) tribal violence (among themselves) speaks volumes, in the Land of "Staying Alive" with the disarming tactic of the traditional . Capiche?