Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[IslandLover]

thailandchilli, on 12 Dec 2014 - 08:14, said:

Koh Tao cctv evidence That disappeared a long time ago. Even the remaining scant clips are seemingly ignored. Prime suspect found clearly running away from the scene at the right time, phone in hand in another clip and RTP claiming he's wearing Davids shorts! Clearly somebody walking in front of this suspect in another clip. Result, zero, no identification of the running man

RTP's early statement on why they did not get the remaining cctv.............it does not belong to us so we have no right to ask for it

One of the statements from the RTP at the start of this investigation that will never go away, where they admitted that Thai's had attempted to destroy evidence and give false information to protect the real killers.

Says it all

But hey, take it to trial let the lynch mob rule................disregard the calls for a fair and transparent trial from the victims families, the defense team and a growing number of respected Human rights organizations. Disregard credible statements from the defense team stating that witness's are to scared to come forward, disregard allegations of police attempting to buy witness's and then giving them a beating when they refuse.

I wonder why some on here fail to add the fair and transparent to their constant calls to take it to trial? Perhaps the reason being that to ensure a fair and transparent trial you then need to actually question and be critical of the investigation, the evidence provided and the Thai judicial system. They have proved beyond doubt that it is impossible for them to do that and so logically cant actually add the words fair and transparent to their calls for a trial.

Whilst I usually agree wholeheartedly with your posts, I have to query something regarding the Koh Tao CCTV evidence. On reflection and after examining all the CCTV footage of the "running man" which is available online, I think the initial claims that the "running man" was wearing David's shorts in one CCTV frame was wide of the mark and that the photo you published of the man wearing dark shorts with phone in hand may indeed have been manipulated (it came from the Nation, I think, with the accompanying article about image superimposition?). The article was unclear though on whether this particular photo was an example of image manipulation. However, what I don't believe has been manipulated is that there were TWO people walking directly in front of the "running man" - a tall farang and a local girl who were originally thought to be David and Hannah. I've seen both images side-by-side and there is only a 3 second difference according to the timestamp on the CCTV images. Why weren't this couple officially identified as surely they are witnesses to the identity of the "running man"?

[AleG]

We've got at least two broken records going on these threads. One who can't stop inserting 'conspiracy theory' in to his many comments, and another who incessantly inserts 'that's not evidence' in to most of his posts. Perhaps they could add something useful to the discussion? Their desperation is showing, or maybe it's their glee that they see the scapegoats moving inexorably closer to guilty verdicts. However, they're not so much eager to see the Burmese fry, as they are to shield the Headman's people. It just so happens that, to keep the headman's people from becoming suspects again, the Burmese have to be sacrificed. Is it such a big deal? The Burmese are poor, they're at the bottom rung of the social ladder (or not even on the ladder), they have no connections to any important Thai people. In sum: they're expendable. Just a reminder of how extremely stratified social classes are in Thailand.

Your hysterical and libelous accusations are clearly crossing the line now.

Post reported to moderation.

[AleG]

I presume that by vitriolic and venomous you refer to me?

I see you are just throwing around speculation, facts and "facts". For example:

"The local quack was seen on camera, ( with a person some say should be of interest shadowing him), handling ant touching both victims and all with the same gloves on. Possibly, if not probably, moving DNA evidence from one place to another."

You are accusing the doctor of tampering with the crime scene, evidence for that: zero.

But hey, that suits your case so you just state it and run with it.

"There was NO forensic specialist on site and the only person with a reputed minimal knowledge was one of the senior officers who came from Bangkok, after the damage had been done."

So what? The postmortem was not done on the beach.

"The collection of the DNA was not performed by specialists in this field."

Where do you get that from?

"The matching of the DNA samples of the defendants did not match at first but, then after a second go at it.. they did. Thank heavens for second chances eh?".

Can you provide a citation to the DNA samples taken before the arrest not matching? Because there is a difference between no results yet and a negative match after the analysis was completed, after all at least around 200 people provided samples to be analyzed and in another paragraph you say that other analysis "were done in a time frame that is impossible". So what is it? Amazing speed to analyze 200+ samples, bloody murder when another analysis (of which you give no details whatsoever) takes too little time?

I think you think you know things that you really don't know, but you base your arguments on them anyway.

"On this DNA debacle, I could write a book but, for now, suffice it to say that any evidence, DNA or otherwise that was collected by non-professionals from this crime scene is, at best, very questionable, and possibly ( or probably) corrupted, tainted and inadmissible in a court of law that wants clarity and undisputable evidence to reach a verdict."

Well, knock yourself out with your book, just make sure it's correctly labeled as fiction if you won't bother with corroborating facts or just make them up as you go.

How well do you know the local doctor that you can vouch for his integrity and professional conduct?

Everyone thought Harold Shipman and Beverly Allet were good enough to employ and praise, and yet they were both stone cold mass murderers !!!

So unless you know the Doctor personally, how do you know he's not beyond " protecting" those who employed him?

As much as you know him to accuse him of misconduct.

If you or DennisF have any evidence or indication to that effect you are of course free to present it, even more, go and talk with the Burmese's lawyers about it; otherwise you are just slandering people for no reason... well, let me correct that, there is a reason and that is to discredit an investigation that didn't turn up the suspects you'd like to see under trial.

[thailandchilli]

thailandchilli, on 12 Dec 2014 - 08:14, said:

Koh Tao cctv evidence That disappeared a long time ago. Even the remaining scant clips are seemingly ignored. Prime suspect found clearly running away from the scene at the right time, phone in hand in another clip and RTP claiming he's wearing Davids shorts! Clearly somebody walking in front of this suspect in another clip. Result, zero, no identification of the running man

RTP's early statement on why they did not get the remaining cctv.............it does not belong to us so we have no right to ask for it

One of the statements from the RTP at the start of this investigation that will never go away, where they admitted that Thai's had attempted to destroy evidence and give false information to protect the real killers.

Says it all

But hey, take it to trial let the lynch mob rule................disregard the calls for a fair and transparent trial from the victims families, the defense team and a growing number of respected Human rights organizations. Disregard credible statements from the defense team stating that witness's are to scared to come forward, disregard allegations of police attempting to buy witness's and then giving them a beating when they refuse.

I wonder why some on here fail to add the fair and transparent to their constant calls to take it to trial? Perhaps the reason being that to ensure a fair and transparent trial you then need to actually question and be critical of the investigation, the evidence provided and the Thai judicial system. They have proved beyond doubt that it is impossible for them to do that and so logically cant actually add the words fair and transparent to their calls for a trial.

Whilst I usually agree wholeheartedly with your posts, I have to query something regarding the Koh Tao CCTV evidence. On reflection and after examining all the CCTV footage of the "running man" which is available online, I think the initial claims that the "running man" was wearing David's shorts in one CCTV frame was wide of the mark and that the photo you published of the man wearing dark shorts with phone in hand may indeed have been manipulated (it came from the Nation, I think, with the accompanying article about image superimposition?). The article was unclear though on whether this particular photo was an example of image manipulation. However, what I don't believe has been manipulated is that there were TWO people walking directly in front of the "running man" - a tall farang and a local girl who were originally thought to be David and Hannah. I've seen both images side-by-side and there is only a 3 second difference according to the timestamp on the CCTV images. Why weren't this couple officially identified as surely they are witnesses to the identity of the "running man"?

Yes sure, when I found the picture online with the dark shorts it was through google image search and just dragged it out to post noticing it came from the nation but not reading the article. However it was clear that when I posted the images I also qualified that with a statement along the lines of you 'make your own decision on the photos'

[retsdon]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

[Fat Haggis]

Been trying to stay away from this thread but it has got really silly.

Thank you Isloandlover for such a great breakdown and post.

Facts:

The family statements are neutral, in the main, saying only what we already know.

What they have said, is clear, although I am surprised that they have appointed JTJ as their

Translator, interpreter and apparent guru.

Day and night he has been posting, what he says, is

what the family meant, because, to him, it is obvious.

Well, guess what, supercilious arrogance does not cut it.

So best he shuts up and sticks toi FACTS, not supposition and interpretation.

I have noticed also that the apologists have attracted a couple of lowly gang members ( or perhaps alter egos) to assist their campaign of disinformation.

I can happily now report Nomsod was 100% on the island that night.

How do I know and what evidence do I have??

I have 2 media interviews from his dear doting daddy that categorically states his son has NOT run

away, he is returning to university. Now as headman of the island and a daddy I have to believe him, he must KNOW where his son is. He really should have contacted Nomsods girlfriend though, she was frantically posting not seeing her beau for 2 or 3 days and, they are inseparable, allegedly.

Should have a word with members of the family too who were posting they were with Nomsod in Bangkok on the day of the murder and making daddy look like he tells porkies. Mind you, as the poster was checked in in Chonburi when she was in Bangkok, its easy to get confused.

Early police chief who was moved (allegedly by prior arrangement) to be replaced by Supreme commander Nothaicoulddothis has been labelled by our frantic posting gaggle of apologists as having made many mistakes yet, he still took up a promotion. So it follows that a new area now has, by their statements, an incompetent and mistake prone leader. Wow, that bodes well for his new subordinates.

My own feeling is he was doing a fine job at the start but appears to have succumbed to 30 pieces of silver, metaphorically speaking.

Moving on to the British police, who I still have faith in, I am uplifted emotionally to notice how the apologists have recognised their worth and given them post Thailand promotions. For weeks they banged on about how they were just observers and referred to them as such. SUDDENLY, in their new (premature) gloating I told you so posts, they have been accorded the heady heights of investigators. I trust their letter of thanks is on its way to JTJ et al.

Just for information, neither the British or the Burmese authorities have made any statements about satisfaction or otherwise despite the RTP BS that keeps being spouted as they are confident in the RTP investigation.

Absolute crp, this is not correct UK terminology nor will they be making statements of that nature at this time that they would suspect would be made public.

A quick mention of the spacebook page. Until recently it has been a great source of information, unfortunately, the plot seems to have been mislaid, hopefully temporarily.

Still some good stuff on there but it is turning into a shrine for the admins ego and a place of worship for his unquestioning disciples.

On saying that, he has never offred up any CT, merely asking questions about information he has, so most things still relevant.

Lastly, the failure of the RTP and prosecuting lawyers to allow the defence team proper and reasonable access to evidence and witnesses or allowing a reasonable time frame to prepare a defence.

So, regardless of the thousands of posts, the feelings of the majority here, it has all been in vain. Whether the B2 did it or not, they have been hung out to dry and nobody can do a damn thing about it. All hopes now rest with human rights groups.

The investigation was shoddy and apparently corrupt and the trial is on the same railtracks.

I'm going to illustrate the failings of your reasoning:

I can happily now report Nomsod was 100% on the island that night.

How do I know and what evidence do I have??

I have 2 media interviews from his dear doting daddy that categorically states his son has NOT run

The evidence you say you have does not validate your premise; even assuming your summary of what the father said is true, "My son is not on the run" does not equal "My son is/was in Koh Tao" It's not a subtle difference at all.

Then you further proceed to add your own speculation as fact, for example "he must KNOW where his son is", why must he? It's your own speculation, and a self serving one at that.

Besides that guess what? Even if he was on the island at that time it doesn't make him the murderer, it doesn't follow, it would be suspicious yes, it doesn't prove that he committed the crime though.

Before you or someone else starts with the BS that I'm shielding Nomsod, I don't give a crap about him.

I do give a crap about people presenting opinions as facts and speculation as evidence, I do give a crap about witch hunts, , I give a crap about lynch mob mentality taking over (yes, I'm looking at those that approve of vigilante "justice" for who they think are the "real" criminals) and I do give a crap about people wanting to interfere with a real life tragedy acting as if it is a game of Clue.

Why?

Why do you give a crap about what other people think? The case has nothing to do with you , and doesnt effect you....... Unless you have vested interests and "friends" who are the focus of unwanted attention. Most people want justice to be seen and a fair trial, but you ?

You are on some kind of moral crusade and my gut instinct tells me your a lot closer to this case and Koh Tao people of influence. Doesn't bother me if you were the owner of the AC bar or Nomsod himself, but the thing is most people don't get that wound up about something that they have zero connection to.

You and the other musketeers are just too " convenient " and orchestrated too, taking it in turns to post, and dismissing everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your logic and POV.

Instead if getting pissed off with the constant theories and speculation how about simply respecting that other opinions that are not in line with yours?

I think your full of it, but I respect your opinions

Didnt you post earlier About going into battle when discussing stuff here? Errrrr it's not a war sunshine, it's an Internet forum where people discuss And debate, and if these posters wind you up so much, why don't you simply stop responding?

You can't that's why, you just can't ignore what's being said, you can't take a step back and ignore the CTs you just cant help trying to belittle them, that's not the actions of a person who has no connections to the Island or the people there.

These are the actions of someone very much with an agenda.

[AleG]

Why?

Why do you give a crap about what other people think? The case has nothing to do with you , and doesnt effect you....... Unless you have vested interests and "friends" who are the focus of unwanted attention. Most people want justice to be seen and a fair trial, but you ?

You are on some kind of moral crusade and my gut instinct tells me your a lot closer to this case and Koh Tao people of influence. Doesn't bother me if you were the owner of the AC bar or Nomsod himself, but the thing is most people don't get that wound up about something that they have zero connection to.

You and the other musketeers are just too " convenient " and orchestrated too, taking it in turns to post, and dismissing everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your logic and POV.

Instead if getting pissed off with the constant theories and speculation how about simply respecting that other opinions that are not in line with yours?

I think your full of it, but I respect your opinions

Didnt you post earlier About going into battle when discussing stuff here? Errrrr it's not a war sunshine, it's an Internet forum where people discuss And debate, and if these posters wind you up so much, why don't you simply stop responding?

You can't that's why, you just can't ignore what's being said, you can't take a step back and ignore the CTs you just cant help trying to belittle them, that's not the actions of a person who has no connections to the Island or the people there.

These are the actions of someone very much with an agenda.

Well, I must inform you that your gut instinct is way off the mark, if you are using the same gut instinct in deciding who are the "real" murderers you should reconsider and instead of using your gut use your brain.

I already explained why I give a crap, do try and pay attention to what you answer to instead of closing your eyes and just going with what your "gut instinct" tells you.

Now, once more, because you guys seem very slow in the uptake: I do not have any connection with Koh Tao, the headman or anyone living there. Got it?

[Fat Haggis]

I presume that by vitriolic and venomous you refer to me?

I see you are just throwing around speculation, facts and "facts". For example:

"The local quack was seen on camera, ( with a person some say should be of interest shadowing him), handling ant touching both victims and all with the same gloves on. Possibly, if not probably, moving DNA evidence from one place to another."

You are accusing the doctor of tampering with the crime scene, evidence for that: zero.

But hey, that suits your case so you just state it and run with it.

"There was NO forensic specialist on site and the only person with a reputed minimal knowledge was one of the senior officers who came from Bangkok, after the damage had been done."

So what? The postmortem was not done on the beach.

"The collection of the DNA was not performed by specialists in this field."

Where do you get that from?

"The matching of the DNA samples of the defendants did not match at first but, then after a second go at it.. they did. Thank heavens for second chances eh?".

Can you provide a citation to the DNA samples taken before the arrest not matching? Because there is a difference between no results yet and a negative match after the analysis was completed, after all at least around 200 people provided samples to be analyzed and in another paragraph you say that other analysis "were done in a time frame that is impossible". So what is it? Amazing speed to analyze 200+ samples, bloody murder when another analysis (of which you give no details whatsoever) takes too little time?

I think you think you know things that you really don't know, but you base your arguments on them anyway.

"On this DNA debacle, I could write a book but, for now, suffice it to say that any evidence, DNA or otherwise that was collected by non-professionals from this crime scene is, at best, very questionable, and possibly ( or probably) corrupted, tainted and inadmissible in a court of law that wants clarity and undisputable evidence to reach a verdict."

Well, knock yourself out with your book, just make sure it's correctly labeled as fiction if you won't bother with corroborating facts or just make them up as you go.

How well do you know the local doctor that you can vouch for his integrity and professional conduct?

Everyone thought Harold Shipman and Beverly Allet were good enough to employ and praise, and yet they were both stone cold mass murderers !!!

So unless you know the Doctor personally, how do you know he's not beyond " protecting" those who employed him?

As much as you know him to accuse him of misconduct.

If you or DennisF have any evidence or indication to that effect you are of course free to present it, even more, go and talk with the Burmese's lawyers about it; otherwise you are just slandering people for no reason... well, let me correct that, there is a reason and that is to discredit an investigation that didn't turn up the suspects you'd like to see under trial.

Try reading again, did I accuse him of miss conduct ? Your words not mine.

I asked if you know him well enough that his integrity and professionalism can't be called into question in other words vouching for him from a personal and professional point of view ?

What makes you think I don't know or aware of the local quack?

Now I finished the post by asking what makes you so sure he isn't beyond looking the other way , do you think only cops can take bribes ?

That's not accusing him of misconduct as the question was put to you , do you know him well enough that he's above any potential miss conduct?

[Fat Haggis]

Why?

Why do you give a crap about what other people think? The case has nothing to do with you , and doesnt effect you....... Unless you have vested interests and "friends" who are the focus of unwanted attention. Most people want justice to be seen and a fair trial, but you ?

You are on some kind of moral crusade and my gut instinct tells me your a lot closer to this case and Koh Tao people of influence. Doesn't bother me if you were the owner of the AC bar or Nomsod himself, but the thing is most people don't get that wound up about something that they have zero connection to.

You and the other musketeers are just too " convenient " and orchestrated too, taking it in turns to post, and dismissing everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your logic and POV.

Instead if getting pissed off with the constant theories and speculation how about simply respecting that other opinions that are not in line with yours?

I think your full of it, but I respect your opinions

Didnt you post earlier About going into battle when discussing stuff here? Errrrr it's not a war sunshine, it's an Internet forum where people discuss And debate, and if these posters wind you up so much, why don't you simply stop responding?

You can't that's why, you just can't ignore what's being said, you can't take a step back and ignore the CTs you just cant help trying to belittle them, that's not the actions of a person who has no connections to the Island or the people there.

These are the actions of someone very much with an agenda.

Well, I must inform you that your gut instinct is way off the mark, if you are using the same gut instinct in deciding who are the "real" murderers you should reconsider and instead of using your gut use your brain.

I already explained why I give a crap, do try and pay attention to what you answer to instead of closing your eyes and just going with what your "gut instinct" tells you.

Now, once more, because you guys seem very slow in the uptake: I do not have any connection with Koh Tao, the headman or anyone living there. Got it?

So you see you're self as the righteous Lone Ranger in pursuit of ?

You don't like Witch hunts? Vigilante justice okay we get it , your like the beacon of truth and light and the self appointed Nemesis to those who think the RTP are about as straight as a damper spring?

Like I said, I might not agree or like your views but I respect them.

I don't think I have ever mentioned who should in custody, do I believe they have the right people in custody, we'll I have to based on the submitted evidence.

It's how the investigation got there that's less than clear cut.

Do I believe the accused will get a fair trial ...nope

Do I believe this trial is rushed, yes I do as it's effecting tourist numbers.

Why is it being rushed so much, say compared to the trial of the red shirts who killed the kids in Trat ? What's more important? The image of Thailand tourism or the 28 murders carried out in the protests, with many of the killers at large?

If you can't see why people are so up in arms about this from the headman and sidekick and plenty of others wandering around the crime scene and the posting of the gruesome pictures by a copper on his Facebook, well that's up to you as they say.

People believe there a miss carraige of justice going on here , what's wrong with their views and opinions, you don't have to read them, and what's more, respond to them.

Dont forget that the persons of interests were suspects at one point, to some, they still are, and so what' if it's vigilante crap or a witch hunt, what position are you in to do anything about it?

It's the Internet you can pick and chose what to read and what to ignore ?

[AleG]

Well, I must inform you that your gut instinct is way off the mark, if you are using the same gut instinct in deciding who are the "real" murderers you should reconsider and instead of using your gut use your brain.

I already explained why I give a crap, do try and pay attention to what you answer to instead of closing your eyes and just going with what your "gut instinct" tells you.

Now, once more, because you guys seem very slow in the uptake: I do not have any connection with Koh Tao, the headman or anyone living there. Got it?

So you see you're self as the righteous Lone Ranger in pursuit of ?

You don't like Witch hunts? Vigilante justice okay we get it , your like the beacon of truth and light and the self appointed Nemesis to those who think the RTP are about as straight as a damper spring?

Like I said, I might not agree or like your views but I respect them.

I don't think I have ever mentioned who should in custody, do I believe they have the right people in custody, we'll I have to based on the submitted evidence.

It's how the investigation got there that's less than clear cut.

Do I believe the accused will get a fair trial ...nope

Do I believe this trial is rushed, yes I do as it's effecting tourist numbers.

Why is it being rushed so much, say compared to the trial of the red shirts who killed the kids in Trat ? What's more important? The image of Thailand tourism or the 28 murders carried out in the protests, with many of the killers at large?

If you can't see why people are so up in arms about this from the headman and sidekick and plenty of others wandering around the crime scene and the posting of the gruesome pictures by a copper on his Facebook, well that's up to you as they say.

People believe there a miss carraige of justice going on here , what's wrong with their views and opinions, you don't have to read them, and what's more, respond to them.

Dont forget that the persons of interests were suspects at one point, to some, they still are, and so what' if it's vigilante crap or a witch hunt, what position are you in to do anything about it?

It's the Internet you can pick and chose what to read and what to ignore ?

I'm not defending the RTP, they did a dog's breakfast of the investigation, in particular the handling of information to the public. That is one of the reasons why I insist on people not exacerbating the problem with wild theories, "facts" and misinformation.

I'm a skeptic, and I believe one must exercise diligence in the pursuit of the truth, to me it's a matter of principles and social responsibility. If some people doesn't like that they can block my posts and live happily in the comfort of their bubble, but I'm not going to stop doing what I think is right.

[balo]

We have maybe 4 or 5 posters here that keeps this thread alive , despite warnings that we should wait to speculate before the trial.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

[thailandchilli]

Its widely reported that the day after the murders the police were already on the trail of 3 Burmese who were near the scene at the time of the murders, here's just one of those reports:

Pol Maj- Gen Kiatipong Khoasamarng said the police have at first targeted on foreign labour working in Koh Tao and now are closing in a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found. http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/surat-police-detain-three-myanmar-workers-questioning-connection-britons-murder

Subsequent reports also stated that the DNA evidence came back negative and so they were released.

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there..............is this the first round of testing for the current suspects that came back negative.........

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there

Considering the very large number of Burmese people working in Koh Tao, many. It's an incredible feeble argument.

Yes I did say lets be realistic , your response is predictable and I would expect no less

[thailandchilli]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

Are their unsolved murders in KT? Are there unsolved rapes in KT? I can tell you the answer to that and it blows your argument out of the water.

Edited December 13, 2014 by thailandchilli

[retsdon]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

Was there anyone with a history of violence? Nearly all perps of homicide do before they commit the big one. As for not knowing whether the Burmese in custody fall in that category or not, any competent police force would bloody well find out!

[metisdead]

A post containing old news not related to this case has been removed as well as the replies.

[BoristheBlade]

Because The couple would identify who running man was.

He can't be identified, because daddy would loose face

thailandchilli, on 12 Dec 2014 - 08:14, said:

Koh Tao cctv evidence That disappeared a long time ago. Even the remaining scant clips are seemingly ignored. Prime suspect found clearly running away from the scene at the right time, phone in hand in another clip and RTP claiming he's wearing Davids shorts! Clearly somebody walking in front of this suspect in another clip. Result, zero, no identification of the running man

RTP's early statement on why they did not get the remaining cctv.............it does not belong to us so we have no right to ask for it

One of the statements from the RTP at the start of this investigation that will never go away, where they admitted that Thai's had attempted to destroy evidence and give false information to protect the real killers.

Says it all

But hey, take it to trial let the lynch mob rule................disregard the calls for a fair and transparent trial from the victims families, the defense team and a growing number of respected Human rights organizations. Disregard credible statements from the defense team stating that witness's are to scared to come forward, disregard allegations of police attempting to buy witness's and then giving them a beating when they refuse.

I wonder why some on here fail to add the fair and transparent to their constant calls to take it to trial? Perhaps the reason being that to ensure a fair and transparent trial you then need to actually question and be critical of the investigation, the evidence provided and the Thai judicial system. They have proved beyond doubt that it is impossible for them to do that and so logically cant actually add the words fair and transparent to their calls for a trial.

Whilst I usually agree wholeheartedly with your posts, I have to query something regarding the Koh Tao CCTV evidence. On reflection and after examining all the CCTV footage of the "running man" which is available online, I think the initial claims that the "running man" was wearing David's shorts in one CCTV frame was wide of the mark and that the photo you published of the man wearing dark shorts with phone in hand may indeed have been manipulated (it came from the Nation, I think, with the accompanying article about image superimposition?). The article was unclear though on whether this particular photo was an example of image manipulation. However, what I don't believe has been manipulated is that there were TWO people walking directly in front of the "running man" - a tall farang and a local girl who were originally thought to be David and Hannah. I've seen both images side-by-side and there is only a 3 second difference according to the timestamp on the CCTV images. Why weren't this couple officially identified as surely they are witnesses to the identity of the "running man"?

[thailandchilli]

Have they been questioned? Of course they saw the running man

Edited December 13, 2014 by thailandchilli

[boomerangutang]

Its widely reported that the day after the murders the police were already on the trail of 3 Burmese who were near the scene at the time of the murders, here's just one of those reports:

Pol Maj- Gen Kiatipong Khoasamarng said the police have at first targeted on foreign labour working in Koh Tao and now are closing in a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found. http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/surat-police-detain-three-myanmar-workers-questioning-connection-britons-murder

Subsequent reports also stated that the DNA evidence came back negative and so they were released.

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there..............is this the first round of testing for the current suspects that came back negative.........

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there

Considering the very large number of Burmese people working in Koh Tao, many. It's an incredible feeble argument.

No it's not a feeble argument. How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar? I hope that's one of the main defensive arguments: 100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches) prior to the 2nd testing (purportedly tested positive 2nd time, and those results were returned very fast, within a country whose police claimed they didn't have proper DNA testing facilities).

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

Pardon me, but I have to wax defensive for my Burmese brothers and sisters. I've stayed in Burmese towns, a cummulative duration of about 2 years. I haven't even heard of serious crimes via my Burmese friends. Granted, there are probably some, but little girls and boys can go prancing down any-sized roads at all daylight hours with no fear. I've strolled around cities and towns at all hours of day and night and never seen a hint of trouble. If you come across a gaggle of young tough guys on a street corner, they're more likely to grin and say 'hello' than do anything remotely threatening. It's 180 degrees different than touristy parts of southern Thailand, frequented by easily-offended (and quickly violent) katoy, and mafia-wannabe tough guys like Ko Tao, Phi Phi and elsewhere.

[AleG]

Its widely reported that the day after the murders the police were already on the trail of 3 Burmese who were near the scene at the time of the murders, here's just one of those reports:

Pol Maj- Gen Kiatipong Khoasamarng said the police have at first targeted on foreign labour working in Koh Tao and now are closing in a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found. http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/surat-police-detain-three-myanmar-workers-questioning-connection-britons-murder

Subsequent reports also stated that the DNA evidence came back negative and so they were released.

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there..............is this the first round of testing for the current suspects that came back negative.........

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there

Considering the very large number of Burmese people working in Koh Tao, many. It's an incredible feeble argument.

No it's not a feeble argument. How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar? I hope that's one of the main defensive arguments: 100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches) prior to the 2nd testing (purportedly tested positive 2nd time, and those results were returned very fast, within a country whose police claimed they didn't have proper DNA testing facilities).

Your ability to make things up in complete obliviousness is amazing:

This is what the article states: "...a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found."

In red you gilding the lily:

"How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar?"

You don't stop there: "100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches)"

You have no idea if all the tests were completed before the arrest of the suspects, of course that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions from it.

[boomerangutang]

Have they been questioned? Of course they saw the running man

I don't know if the photo (from above post) shows up on here, but it's a good reminder of the person 'who should be prime suspect'. The photo shows him with lots of hair (as he's been photographed days prior to the crime). Of course, Thai investigators aren't going to even lift a finger to try and find the boy's barber and interview him. That's just one of 100 basic things cops aren't going to pursue, because it could implicate him. Just a bit of advice to Thai cops: if they interview the barber, ask him if he/she changed the cut of the boy's sideburns (from facing forward, to facing his ear) in order to distance him from the video footage. But more telling (in the photo), is the way the person in the video has his left arm bent as if protecting his stomach. In several different photos of Nomsod prior to the crime, he's shown cradling his left arm in the very same manner. Here's another factoid which Thai officials don't want to know about: Nomsod is purportedly left-handed, and David's attacker was very likely left-handed. Most wounds to David were on his right side.

Since it's doubtful Brit police did any independent investigation on this case (because of their very brief time on the island, and specific instructions that they could be no more than OBSERVERS), then it's no surprise that what they told the victims' families was the same pap that Thai officials fed to the Brits. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but try and be specific, instead of throwing out incessant childish bleatings of; 'all of you who mention Nomsod are conspiracy theorists!' or 'it's not hard evidence!'. This is a discussion, and that's what most of us are doing here: discussing aspects of the case.

[boomerangutang]

Its widely reported that the day after the murders the police were already on the trail of 3 Burmese who were near the scene at the time of the murders, here's just one of those reports:

Pol Maj- Gen Kiatipong Khoasamarng said the police have at first targeted on foreign labour working in Koh Tao and now are closing in a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found. http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/surat-police-detain-three-myanmar-workers-questioning-connection-britons-murder

Subsequent reports also stated that the DNA evidence came back negative and so they were released.

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there..............is this the first round of testing for the current suspects that came back negative.........

Now lets be realistic here, how many groups of 3 Burmese could have been there

Considering the very large number of Burmese people working in Koh Tao, many. It's an incredible feeble argument.

No it's not a feeble argument. How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar? I hope that's one of the main defensive arguments: 100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches) prior to the 2nd testing (purportedly tested positive 2nd time, and those results were returned very fast, within a country whose police claimed they didn't have proper DNA testing facilities).

Your ability to make things up in complete obliviousness is amazing:

This is what the article states: "...a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found."

In red you gilding the lily:

"How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar?"

You don't stop there: "100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches)"

You have no idea if all the tests were completed before the arrest of the suspects, of course that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions from it.

Is that the best you can do to counter my assertion? Good thing you're not the lawyer for the prosecution, or else your superiors would replace you with someone who could pursue their frame-up in a more convincing manner.

[AleG]

Your ability to make things up in complete obliviousness is amazing:

This is what the article states: "...a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found."

In red you gilding the lily:

"How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar?"

You don't stop there: "100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches)"

You have no idea if all the tests were completed before the arrest of the suspects, of course that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions from it.

Is that the best you can do to counter my assertion? Good thing you're not the lawyer for the prosecution, or else your superiors would replace you with someone who could pursue their frame-up in a more convincing manner.

Yes, I think conclusively proving that you make things up as you go is pretty convincing. I thought using red colour would have been clear enough, but there's no limit to what a man would deny in order to save face.

[thailandchilli]

Your ability to make things up in complete obliviousness is amazing:

This is what the article states: "...a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found."

In red you gilding the lily:

"How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar?"

You don't stop there: "100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches)"

You have no idea if all the tests were completed before the arrest of the suspects, of course that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions from it.

Is that the best you can do to counter my assertion? Good thing you're not the lawyer for the prosecution, or else your superiors would replace you with someone who could pursue their frame-up in a more convincing manner.

Yes, I think conclusively proving that you make things up as you go is pretty convincing. I thought using red colour would have been clear enough, but there's no limit to what a man would deny in order to save face.

Took a long to to find them then if it was not the same group:

Police now appear to be focusing on finding three men - two tall, one short - who were seen on Sairee beach near the place the bodies were found. The group had been on the beach smoking, playing guitar and singing an "English" song in the early hours of Monday morning, investigators said on Thursday. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11104566/Parents-of-Hannah-Witheridge-arrive-in-Thailand-as-murder-hunt-falters.html

[boomerangutang]

Maybe AleG simply hasn't been keeping abreast of the many bits of info on this case, since it broke. I honestly tried seeing what he was taking issue with, but I couldn't figure it out. Oh well, when I see people off in their own little worlds, I usually leave them be.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

Are their unsolved murders in KT? Are there unsolved rapes in KT? I can tell you the answer to that and it blows your argument out of the water.

I am not aware of any unsolved murders on Koh Tao, wasn't the last murder there like a decade or more ago when a local shot another local? Please tell us what unsolved murders there are.

[thailandchilli]

Motive is the elephant in the room for me. I find it very difficult to credit that two people with no apparent history of violence would together take it into their heads to suddenly commit horrific murder and rape on the spur of the moment. One person - possibly. But two? A mutual murder lust overcomes them simultaneously, and in a matter of minutes at most they agree to commit a capital crime? Drunk or not, unless both these two have some history of violence, I'm afraid I simply can't envisage it. And then when they've finished, they re-position the corpse in the most humiliating position possible? Why?

It simply doesn't add up.

They are from a country that is has a great deal of violence, including rape that largely goes unprosecuted. We have no idea what violence they may or may not have done in the past. Was there anyone on the island who has a history of rape and murder?

Are their unsolved murders in KT? Are there unsolved rapes in KT? I can tell you the answer to that and it blows your argument out of the water.

I am not aware of any unsolved murders on Koh Tao, wasn't the last murder there like a decade or more ago when a local shot another local? Please tell us what unsolved murders there are.

I'm not here to humour you, I asked a question, you want the answer you find it

[AleG]

Your ability to make things up in complete obliviousness is amazing:

This is what the article states: "...a group of suspects who are Myanmar workers. They had liquor drinks near the scene on Sunday night before the two bodies would be found."

In red you gilding the lily:

"How many groups of 3 Burmese are out at 3 am on a beach, playing guitar, within spitting distance of the AC bar?"

You don't stop there: "100 to 200 Burmese migrants were DNA tested (all without matches)"

You have no idea if all the tests were completed before the arrest of the suspects, of course that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions from it.

Is that the best you can do to counter my assertion? Good thing you're not the lawyer for the prosecution, or else your superiors would replace you with someone who could pursue their frame-up in a more convincing manner.

Yes, I think conclusively proving that you make things up as you go is pretty convincing. I thought using red colour would have been clear enough, but there's no limit to what a man would deny in order to save face.

Took a long to to find them then if it was not the same group:

Police now appear to be focusing on finding three men - two tall, one short - who were seen on Sairee beach near the place the bodies were found. The group had been on the beach smoking, playing guitar and singing an "English" song in the early hours of Monday morning, investigators said on Thursday. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11104566/Parents-of-Hannah-Witheridge-arrive-in-Thailand-as-murder-hunt-falters.html

So you just assume that the two articles refer to the same people; assumptions are not facts.

[AleG]

Maybe AleG simply hasn't been keeping abreast of the many bits of info on this case, since it broke. I honestly tried seeing what he was taking issue with, but I couldn't figure it out. Oh well, when I see people off in their own little worlds, I usually leave them be.

As I explained in the previous post, you are making assumptions by conflating two different reports that refer to people in different terms.

This is the sort of thing I was referring to in my last reply to Fat Haggis regarding diligence in the pursuit of truth, you simply assume things and then run with it.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Are their unsolved murders in KT? Are there unsolved rapes in KT? I can tell you the answer to that and it blows your argument out of the water.

I am not aware of any unsolved murders on Koh Tao, wasn't the last murder there like a decade or more ago when a local shot another local? Please tell us what unsolved murders there are.

I'm not here to humour you, I asked a question, you want the answer you find it

I did answer, you as I am not aware of any but YOU specifically said, "I can tell you the answer to that and it blows your argument out of the water."

Were you being dishonest or does sharing what would be very informative information to share on this topic not as relevant to you as making random meaningless argumentative comments?

Edited December 13, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn