Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[JohnThailandJohn]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

[BritTim]

From reports it would seem a male and female lost out on a fight with two armed men and that the male was attacked from behind ... possibly by surprise.

Curious, where has Nomsed's height been reported and who are the experienced people who have concluded the height of the person in the video ... which I again will remind that is not somebody anyone has any proof was involved in the crime and somebody who police may have already identified and cleared.

I will take you on your word about the victim's heights and the Burmese but I question the reliability of the person in the video and the Bangkok University kid who has already been cleared and proved to not have been on the island.

From reports it would seem a male and female lost out on a fight with two armed men ...

Taking the official story at face value, two small Burmese, with no prior history of violence, armed with one hoe.

I again will remind that is not somebody anyone has any proof was involved in the crime and somebody who police may have already identified and cleared.

And I again shall reiterate that most of us have little trust in the RTP's investigation. However, I take no position on whether Nomsod was involved. I am only fairly convinced that the Burmese kids were not.

[thailandchilli]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

So you can come up with 1 link to the DNA show that the RTP said the UK police have no need to inspect as they are happy with our investigation...........the same UK police who said they wanted independent DNA verification of the B2 and were refused!

What about all the other claims of solid evidence you said you had, read my post again instead of deflecting my questions with something I did not ask about.

Edited December 23, 2014 by thailandchilli

[JohnThailandJohn]

From reports it would seem a male and female lost out on a fight with two armed men and that the male was attacked from behind ... possibly by surprise.

Curious, where has Nomsed's height been reported and who are the experienced people who have concluded the height of the person in the video ... which I again will remind that is not somebody anyone has any proof was involved in the crime and somebody who police may have already identified and cleared.

I will take you on your word about the victim's heights and the Burmese but I question the reliability of the person in the video and the Bangkok University kid who has already been cleared and proved to not have been on the island.

From reports it would seem a male and female lost out on a fight with two armed men ...

Taking the official story at face value, two small Burmese, with no prior history of violence, armed with one hoe.

I again will remind that is not somebody anyone has any proof was involved in the crime and somebody who police may have already identified and cleared.

And I again shall reiterate that most of us have little trust in the RTP's investigation. However, I take no position on whether Nomsod was involved. I am only fairly convinced that the Burmese kids were not.

How do you know they have no history of violence -- for sure they come from a violent country where rape and brutality is committed by officials and they region which they lived is actually one of the most violent in their country.

Actually it has been indicated a number of times by police the hoe was "one" weapon and hitting somebody over the head from behind with a sharp metal object on the end of a long pole could be done easily by one person half the height and strength of the other.

You are welcome to not believe anything investigators in this case have stated or indicated be they Thai or UK but the fact is you and others seem to simply believe what you want and say they can't be trusted on other issues. They name a suspect and you latch onto this as to be trusted but then disregard as not trustable when the police clear the person. Regardless of all the people involved in collecting DNA from the scene and others from the bodies and the numerous labs involved in comparing the DNA to hundreds of suspects in a blind manner -- you disregard this as not trustable but would much prefer to believe something like a person on a video who can't be identified by the video alone is somebody who has proven he was hundreds of miles away and could not be the person on the video. Whatever makes you happy I guess but just doesn't seem the least bit logical to me.

[catsanddogs]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

Dislike.

[catsanddogs]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

So you can come up with 1 link to the DNA show that the RTP said the UK police have no need to inspect as they are happy with our investigation...........the same UK police who said they wanted independent DNA verification of the B2 and were refused!

What about all the other claims of solid evidence you said you had, read my post again instead of deflecting my questions with something I did not ask about.

Quite. Where is the evidence you have knowledge of regarding the staff at the university in Bangkok etc etc etc? Looking forward to seeing it.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

So you can come up with 1 link to the DNA show that the RTP said the UK police have no need to inspect as they are happy with our investigation...........the same UK police who said they wanted independent DNA verification of the B2 and were refused!

What about all the other claims of solid evidence you said you had, read my post again instead of deflecting my questions with something I did not ask about.

Quite. Where is the evidence you have knowledge of regarding the staff at the university in Bangkok etc etc etc? Looking forward to seeing it.

Of course you would because it is something you know you can't have as you or I are not part of the investigation and can just go on what is reported -- not to mention this person is not even part of the investigation except for the fact he was cleared like MANY others who you also know you will never see the details about how police cleared them either or the witness statements that cleared them or any physical evidence that cleared him but with this Kid we know from reports he was in Bangkok, attended class (pretty sure the class involved other students and a teacher) and took a test (which would be on file) and there is time stamped video and DNA submitted to 4 labs to prove he was not only not involved but hundreds of miles away ... I would say it is much more likely you were involved unless you want to publicly share proof of your not being there and arrange to have your DNA tested at 4 labs and have the results made public.

Bottom line, Police looked into him and cleared him based on the evidence he was not there and police made this clear and Police didn't even feel the need to get a DNA sample from him as they did his family members on the Island because they knew he wasn't there.

It is ridiculous to keep harping about this kid when there is NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate he was involved and he has proved to investigators he was not on the island and has publicly and voluntarily submitted to DNA testing and shared time stamped video showing he was in Bangkok at the time as well as providing the information of his attendance at University .... Meanwhile two defendants are standing trial where there is clear evidence they were at the scene, DNA evidence to show they had sex with one victim and there having property from one of the victims. This you find all sorts of fantasy reasons not to believe just like the fantasies of believing the University kid was involved.

Edited December 23, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Vejo]

On the theme of logic JTJ, if the RTP are in receipt of 4 perfect DNA matches from 4 different analysts, taken from samples recovered correctly from the victim, why do the prosecutors keep returning the police file? I know you can only speculate but its reported the Burmese said they went to the beach, got blind drunk and went to bed hence no contact whatsoever with Hannah. Armed with such steadfast evidence you would have to be a special kind of stupid to have your case returned 5 times if you could not come up with a believable scenario from that.

I personally can't imagine what they keep missing to spook the prosecutors if everything is so "perfect", I would see no need for witnesses or confessions personally.

[berybert]

Again its the little things that bother me. The kid was in Bangkok 100% we have seen the video of him there.

So why did his father seem to think he was on the island on the day of the murder ?

Someone said he was in class doing an exam with other students and a teacher. Yet I seem to recall someone else mention he didn't show up for class the day after the murder because he was to upset. Not sure why he would be upset that two foreigners were killed hundreds of miles from where he was, but we are all different.

[Luang]

British detectives who travelled to Thailand after concerns were raised about the investigation into the murder of two British tourists had a very narrow role while there and viewed only limited aspects of the case, the Metropolitan police has said.

In the first public statement about the extent of British police involvement in the inquiry into the killings of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller on the holiday island of Koh Tao in September, the Met said its officers “did not conduct any investigations into the murders” themselves.

Two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, who have alleged they were tortured by Thai police following their arrest, are due to go on trial on 26 December.

The defence lawyers have not been allowed access to the prosecution case, and they and the rights group Reprieve wrote to the Met requesting that it hand over any relevant information.

However, the Met’s legal services team wrote back to say the force did not hold any details of the case. Its letter to Reprieve said: “The Thai authorities permitted the UK police officers to have observer status only in relation to limited parts of the Royal Thai police’s investigation, and the UK police officers did not provide any advice or assistance with that investigation.

“They did not take possession of any physical evidence, forensic evidence, exhibits, interviews or statements. The Royal Thai police provided an interpreter who verbally translated documents that formed limited parts of the prosecution case.”

They might as well have not bothered.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/police-thai-inquiry-britons-murder?

Totally agree and a total disappointment for all those who thought the UK Police had the ethics to do something towards finding the guilty.

They've obviously been sent over to appease the interested (outraged) public by a Govt, that couldn't give two hoots about these kids deaths. And this after they stated they were concerned with aspects of the case and wanted independent verification of DNA samples. They've simply gone through the motions, swallowed the gumph from the Thai police and returned home. Even worse though, they've gone and then fed that same nonsense gumph back to the families who trust their police force and so swallow it themselves. Incredulously,they then make ill-timed statements that have completely undermined the defence of the Burmese and could well play a major part in their demise.

I hope to God that they are guilty or we will have a situation of four young lives possibly ended and at the least two ruined, all aided and abetted (albeit in the families case unknowingly) by police forces from both sides and by the victims families themselves. What a tragic situation we have.

The Thai's themselves sent this case back 4-5 times was it? How on earth are the UK Police happy with this? That;s not even mentioning the rest of the circus that they must have had some knowledge of. It truly is a sham from them!

Did they even bother taking samples from Hannah when she returned home? I'm beginning to wonder if they even bothered to do that. Shamed to be English at the moment!

Keep up the pressure though folks, Cameron, Kent, Hugo Swain (FCO), Jonathan Head (BBC Thailand) all have twitter accounts! Anyone has any other suggestible avenues to question the Brit involvement let us know.,. wink, wink!

Edited December 23, 2014 by Luang

[Lozza]

The Families did not say they were happy with the investigation the RTP said this after phoning the families to say they had completed their investigation and the evidence they had obtained was irrefutable.

The only people the families thanked were the metropolitan police for their assistance over the course of the investigation.

[Fat Haggis]

If you think that a single frame with a dodgy looking Date and time stamp on it is enough evidence to clear Nomsod of being OFF the island it would be thrown out anywhere else as in admissible !!

How about statements from his tutors and teachers instead and all rhe other attendees on his course?

But a single frame with no other person present ?

I could do the same on Photoshop in 10 minutes saying I'm in New York but the reality is I'm back at work in the Middle East!!

You cannot dismiss the CCTV pictures and yet hold the Uni picture as clear evidence he wasn't there!!

[boomerangutang]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

Edited December 23, 2014 by boomerangutang

[boomerangutang]

Has there been any announcement that either Mon or his nephew are no longer suspects? I know it's inferred, but is it official?

[JohnThailandJohn]

On the theme of logic JTJ, if the RTP are in receipt of 4 perfect DNA matches from 4 different analysts, taken from samples recovered correctly from the victim, why do the prosecutors keep returning the police file? I know you can only speculate but its reported the Burmese said they went to the beach, got blind drunk and went to bed hence no contact whatsoever with Hannah. Armed with such steadfast evidence you would have to be a special kind of stupid to have your case returned 5 times if you could not come up with a believable scenario from that.

I personally can't imagine what they keep missing to spook the prosecutors if everything is so "perfect", I would see no need for witnesses or confessions personally.

You obviously have no understanding of the legal process as well as the fact that prosecutors have accepted the case and trial dates have been set. Prosecutors never rejected the case and were the ones going to court making sure the defendants were held while the investigation was wrapped up. Prosecutors asking for additional information from police is very common in criminal cases since they know the law much better than police and know the evidence and what legal hurdles they may encounter in court. When you are talking high profile double murder where baseless conspiracy theories went viral on the internet and a defense team trying to capitalize on this then you can be damn sure prosecutors want to present as near a perfect case as possible. It would take a special kind of stupid for them to have not used the time they legally had to make sure they had every i dotted and every t crossed before submitting their case to the court on the legally prescribed time as they and the police did. The final police report they submitted to the court was 900 Pages.

Prosecutors on Dec. 8th indicted both men on five counts each including premeditated murder, killing to conceal a criminal offence, rape, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. In addition at least one of the defendants was charged with stealing one of the victim's cell phone and glasses.

[berybert]

On the theme of logic JTJ, if the RTP are in receipt of 4 perfect DNA matches from 4 different analysts, taken from samples recovered correctly from the victim, why do the prosecutors keep returning the police file? I know you can only speculate but its reported the Burmese said they went to the beach, got blind drunk and went to bed hence no contact whatsoever with Hannah. Armed with such steadfast evidence you would have to be a special kind of stupid to have your case returned 5 times if you could not come up with a believable scenario from that.

I personally can't imagine what they keep missing to spook the prosecutors if everything is so "perfect", I would see no need for witnesses or confessions personally.

You obviously have no understanding of the legal process as well as the fact that prosecutors have accepted the case and trial dates have been set. Prosecutors never rejected the case and were the ones going to court making sure the defendants were held while the investigation was wrapped up. Prosecutors asking for additional information from police is very common in criminal cases since they know the law much better than police and know the evidence and what legal hurdles they may encounter in court. When you are talking high profile double murder where baseless conspiracy theories went viral on the internet and a defense team trying to capitalize on this then you can be damn sure prosecutors want to present as near a perfect case as possible. It would take a special kind of stupid for them to have not used the time they legally had to make sure they had every i dotted and every t crossed before submitting their case to the court on the legally prescribed time as they and the police did. The final police report they submitted to the court was 900 Pages.

Prosecutors on Dec. 8th indicted both men on five counts each including premeditated murder, killing to conceal a criminal offence, rape, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. In addition at least one of the defendants was charged with stealing one of the victim's cell phone and glasses.

Killing to conceal a criminal offence ? what was the offence they tried to conceal ? You are aware there are still thousands of these, in your words "brutal people"

living on the island and many of them will be in the country illegally. Is there any reason they are also not in jail.

And despite this you would not warn people about going there.

Sounds like a pretty dodgy place if you ask me.

[Vejo]

1. I have very little understanding of legal process, I wouldn't be asking random strangers on the internet for their opinions if I did.

2. Why do you feel the need to point that out if it's obvious?

3. Rejected is your word, mine was returned.

4.. I suspect you know as little as me, I've learnt nothing from what you've written and nothing that I've not read before.

5. I was genuinely interested in your opinion as you appeared the most open and reasonable of the pro RTP posters

6. No. 5 shows I'm obliviously just a bad judge of character... and no... I didn't need to write that either!

7. Please don't stop what your doing, I'll have fun trying to work out if you really are an expert in Thai law or just another english teaching nuthugger of all things Thai, blinkered and suffering delusions of grandeur.

[balo]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

You must be joking , who do you belong to , the Gang of 5 who keeps this thread warm ?

You never give up on that CCTV footage , and as we all know , it means nothing as evidence , not even close. We can pick 1000's of similar asian boys that would fit , but you just keep going on with it . That boy has been through a lot already and do not deserve more attention from you guys, He has been cleared and can move on with his life.

Edited December 23, 2014 by balo

[AGareth2]

you need to prove Fresh milk was on the island

then the tide will turn

[StealthEnergiser]

On the theme of logic JTJ, if the RTP are in receipt of 4 perfect DNA matches from 4 different analysts, taken from samples recovered correctly from the victim, why do the prosecutors keep returning the police file? I know you can only speculate but its reported the Burmese said they went to the beach, got blind drunk and went to bed hence no contact whatsoever with Hannah. Armed with such steadfast evidence you would have to be a special kind of stupid to have your case returned 5 times if you could not come up with a believable scenario from that.

I personally can't imagine what they keep missing to spook the prosecutors if everything is so "perfect", I would see no need for witnesses or confessions personally.

You obviously have no understanding of the legal process as well as the fact that prosecutors have accepted the case and trial dates have been set. Prosecutors never rejected the case and were the ones going to court making sure the defendants were held while the investigation was wrapped up. Prosecutors asking for additional information from police is very common in criminal cases since they know the law much better than police and know the evidence and what legal hurdles they may encounter in court. When you are talking high profile double murder where baseless conspiracy theories went viral on the internet and a defense team trying to capitalize on this then you can be damn sure prosecutors want to present as near a perfect case as possible. It would take a special kind of stupid for them to have not used the time they legally had to make sure they had every i dotted and every t crossed before submitting their case to the court on the legally prescribed time as they and the police did. The final police report they submitted to the court was 900 Pages.

Prosecutors on Dec. 8th indicted both men on five counts each including premeditated murder, killing to conceal a criminal offence, rape, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. In addition at least one of the defendants was charged with stealing one of the victim's cell phone and glasses.

The B2's government has declared these boys innocent , All I can say that any low lifes that are still trying to hang the burmese boys need investigating and the truth will come out many more witnesses to come out yet and a small group on thai visa may finally shut their dirty traps.

[fritzzz25]

Lets be real -- video from his aprtment and reportedly from the university - university staff and records - witnesses - police confirmation - ZERO credible evidence to suggest he was on the island - DNA tests sent to three different labs ......... all this is not enough but you think an ATM card and cell phone records (could have lent to his GF) are going to convince you?

Absolutely NOTHING linking him to the crime or even being within hundred of miles of the crime when it occurred ... in fact STRONG evidence showed he was not there or involved.

Police publicly named him as a suspect early on (no fear of him or his family) and then investigated him and cleared him as they did many people early on while following up on leads which many turned out to be false.

Just picking random people to accuse and demanding they go to extraordinary means to prove they were not involved is beyond illogical and IMO just a way to avoid looking at actual facts.

Are you willing to publicly post your personal records online for the world to see to show you are not involved in the murders? Until you are willing to do that here then I don't see how you think it right to demand somebody else do this. And yes, has to be public otherwise people will say the police are lying to protect him.

Was my name mentioned by the RTP during the first few days of the investigation? Did I have my daddy put on a public DNA display?

The police also "cleared" the Burmese boys during the initial DNA comparisons too. How convenient that they took a bunch of DNA from a pile of people, and then magically the DNA from two of these people "ended up" on/in Hannah's body. Wow, an amazing coincidence......

Again JTJ, it is apparent you have not done an investigation of this nature, because true homicide investigators receive these documents via warrant in order to show evidence.... evidence that focuses on proof of who the perpetrator is, and also to rule out other perpetrators. The evidence needs to be collected fairly, not based on the social caste or the amount of money in someone's wallet.....

[boomerangutang]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

You must be joking , who do you belong to , the Gang of 5 who keeps this thread warm ?

You never give up on that CCTV footage , and as we all know , it means nothing as evidence , not even close. We can pick 1000's of similar asian boys that would fit , but you just keep going on with it . That boy has been through a lot already and do not deserve more attention from you guys, He has been cleared and can move on with his life.

I am not joking. This is a serious issue. Currently, there are very likely some men walking around the island, going to backpacker parties, who have 'blood on their hands.' If they can get away with rape and murder, they'll do it again. In September the victims were two Brits. They're not the first, and won't be the last. in the future, any other young white folks could be targeted, and again, the perps will get away with it, as long as they're connected to the headman.

A small minority on this thread don't think the KT CCTV shows Nomsod. Even when they might be convinced (tho they try mightily to not see the obvious resemblance) they'll devolve to saying, "it means nothing as evidence." Par for the course. In the final analyses, it doesn't matter what anyone of Thaivisa thinks about the CCTV footage, because.....

>>> The people who should be prime suspects, no longer are, so they're clear,

>>> The police make the decisions of who should be suspects (and who can be cleared), and the police know on which side their toast is buttered,

>>> Thai judges make the decision of innocence or guilt, and we can only hope they're able to be subjective and fair-minded, and not overly influenced by the same forces which guide the police.

[englishoak]

UK police statement is out and can be seen in original form link on Andy Halls twitter....

I suggest people read it, it should clear a few things up, or not

[AleG]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

[aimbc]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

I think the motivation for people posting here is to get the truth, and to give the two defendants an opportunity for a fair trial. Hopefully to make the rtp more accountable in the future. And hopefully make Thailand a safer place.

But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them. Especially from the way that the entire investigation was carried out. And knowing how money can buy out cops. Further more, I wonder why people need to defend the rtp statement if in their mind it's already true. If it's true, let it be and enjoy the show. Or is it their desire to convince themselves that it's true.

[AleG]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

I think the motivation for people posting here is to get the truth, and to give the two defendants an opportunity for a fair trial. Hopefully to make the rtp more accountable in the future. And hopefully make Thailand a safer place.

But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them. Especially from the way that the entire investigation was carried out. And knowing how money can buy out cops. Further more, I wonder why people need to defend the rtp statement if in their mind it's already true. If it's true, let it be and enjoy the show. Or is it their desire to convince themselves that it's true.

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

[jpeg]

The Thai's themselves sent this case back 4-5 times was it? How on earth are the UK Police happy with this?

International ties with logistically best placed country in SE Asia? Money trumps all everywhere. It's simply that the Thais are less sophisticated as to how to hide it's Godlike status. Shameful.

[IslandLover]

In the light of what we now know about the fact that the British police did almost nothing during their visit to Thailand to "observe" the investigation into the Koh Tao murders, I'm beginning to understand why the victims' families put out those statements via the FCO.

I came across a post on another forum yesterday where the poster implied the families may have asked the U.K. police not to pursue the case any further because they want it all over and done with.

The poster went on to say poignantly that "they have been too silent and that's why I think they want all this to end regardless of justice" and "they have given up and walked away".

The above is only an opinion of course but it really struck a chord with me as it's what I've been thinking since I read those statements. Contrast this with the attitude of the families of Kirsty Jones and Nick Pierson.

It is apparent that the families have only seen the evidence provided by the RTP who are determined to see the B2 found guilty, despite compelling reasons to believe they are not guilty (which have been discussed at length on this forum). Personally, I think the best outcome would be for the B2 to be acquitted due to insufficient evidence and for the case to remain unsolved. Sadly, it would not provide closure for the families of David and Hannah but it would save two innocent men from a possible death sentence.

Edited December 24, 2014 by IslandLover

[berybert]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

I think the motivation for people posting here is to get the truth, and to give the two defendants an opportunity for a fair trial. Hopefully to make the rtp more accountable in the future. And hopefully make Thailand a safer place.

But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them. Especially from the way that the entire investigation was carried out. And knowing how money can buy out cops. Further more, I wonder why people need to defend the rtp statement if in their mind it's already true. If it's true, let it be and enjoy the show. Or is it their desire to convince themselves that it's true.

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

I would like to know the truth based on the truth.

The gang of 4 get mentioned on a regular outing as they seem to have this undenying belief of what the police release.

Ask yourself a question, Who would you fit as the most likely person to be the running man ? A Thai male or one of the 2 Burmese.

I'm not asking you to tell me again it was proved the Thai male wasn't on the island at the time. I'm asking you to tell me which of the 3 most resembles the running man.

[jpeg]

UK police statement is out and can be seen in original form link on Andy Halls twitter....

I suggest people read it, it should clear a few things up, or not

Do you mean this? http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2014-12-23/metropolitan-police-had-observer-status-only-on-visit-to-thailand/

I don't see anything other than the little already posted.