Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[berybert]

In the light of what we now know about the fact that the British police did almost nothing during their visit to Thailand to "observe" the investigation into the Koh Tao murders, I'm beginning to understand why the victims' families put out those statements via the FCO.

I came across a post on another forum yesterday where the poster implied the families may have asked the U.K. police not to pursue the case any further because they want it all over and done with.

The poster went on to say poignantly that "they have been too silent and that's why I think they want all this to end regardless of justice" and "they have given up and walked away".

The above is only an opinion of course but it really struck a chord with me as it's what I've been thinking since I read those statements. Contrast this with the attitude of the families of Kirsty Jones and Nick Pierson.

It is apparent that the families have only seen the evidence provided by the RTP who are determined to see the B2 found guilty, despite compelling reasons to believe they are not guilty (which have been discussed at length on this forum). Personally, I think the best outcome would be for the B2 to be acquitted due to insufficient evidence and for the case to remain unsolved. Sadly, it would not provide closure for the families of David and Hannah but it would save two innocent men from a possible death sentence.

If both families are happy for 2 innocent guys to be put to death because they can have closure, then there really isn't much difference between them and anyone else who has been involved in this whole sorry mess. The sympathy I have for them would be wiped away PDQ is that was the case.

[fritzzz25]

"The true aim of the prosecution should be to seek the truth rather than merely seek a conviction."

Taken from http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/RS_No53/No53_28PA_Kesornsiricharoen.pdf

THE ROLE AND FUNCTION OF PUBLIC PROSECUTORS IN THAILAND

[BritTim]

In the light of what we now know about the fact that the British police did almost nothing during their visit to Thailand to "observe" the investigation into the Koh Tao murders, I'm beginning to understand why the victims' families put out those statements via the FCO.

I came across a post on another forum yesterday where the poster implied the families may have asked the U.K. police not to pursue the case any further because they want it all over and done with.

The poster went on to say poignantly that "they have been too silent and that's why I think they want all this to end regardless of justice" and "they have given up and walked away".

The above is only an opinion of course but it really struck a chord with me as it's what I've been thinking since I read those statements. Contrast this with the attitude of the families of Kirsty Jones and Nick Pierson.

It is apparent that the families have only seen the evidence provided by the RTP who are determined to see the B2 found guilty, despite compelling reasons to believe they are not guilty (which have been discussed at length on this forum). Personally, I think the best outcome would be for the B2 to be acquitted due to insufficient evidence and for the case to remain unsolved. Sadly, it would not provide closure for the families of David and Hannah but it would save two innocent men from a possible death sentence.

My own reading of this is a little different.

Generally speaking, the UK authorities in such situations mainly want to avoid it developing into a diplomatic incident that can affect the overall ties between the countries. Up to a point, I am happy that the wider interests of UK citizens and UK businesses in Thailand are given importance. It is just that, in this case, the instinctive reaction has gone too far.

Given the UK authorities' priorities, how will be case have been handled? First, they appointed family liaison officers whose job is to create a buffer between the families and the Thai institutions plus the media. This potentially has positive aspects as it can reduce pressure on family members at a critical time. More importantly, from the UK's point of view, it allows them to avoid conflict between the families and Thailand. Their initial advice will have been to avoid talking to the media and to leave the liaison with the Thai authorities to them.

The UK police will have been sent with instructions to be diplomatic in their dealings with the RTP and just collect what information they can without ruffling feathers. Obviously, if the Burmese kids are being framed, the RTP will have chosen to tell the UK police little. They will, however, have been charming hosts and very reassuring in their statements that everything was done by the book.

The family liaison officers probably know very little about Thailand. What they will know is that high profile crimes usually give rise to all kinds of conspiracy theories. They will have done little to check whether the doubts raised in this case are well founded. The UK police will have returned and told both the liaison officers and the families that, based on what they observed in Thailand, they cannot refute the official RTP story. The liaison officers will have been telling the families not to pay attention to conspiracy stories they read in the media.

With the best of intentions, to reduce pressure on the families to become involved (and, incidentally, satisfying the UK authorities' primary objectives) the FCO and liaison officers will have helped the families draft and issue those unfortunate statements.

The above may not be 100% accurate, but I would bet from experience that it is not far from the truth.

[BritTim]

"The true aim of the prosecution should be to seek the truth rather than merely seek a conviction."

Taken from http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/RS_No53/No53_28PA_Kesornsiricharoen.pdf

THE ROLE AND FUNCTION OF PUBLIC PROSECUTORS IN THAILAND

A laudable objective, but one (unfortunately) that conflicts with their career prospects. Proving that the accused are innocent means they lose the case.

[JLCrab]

"The true aim of the prosecution should be to seek the truth rather than merely seek a conviction."

Taken from http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/RS_No53/No53_28PA_Kesornsiricharoen.pdf

THE ROLE AND FUNCTION OF PUBLIC PROSECUTORS IN THAILAND

A laudable objective, but one (unfortunately) that conflicts with their career prospects. Proving that the accused are innocent means they lose the case.

But in this case, the Defense Counsel/Supporters already proclaim to know the truth -- that those charged are innocent of all charges -- they just for now it seems have no way to prove it.

Edited December 24, 2014 by JLCrab

[aimbc]

JTJ and others of the 'Gang of 4' (jdinasia, Balo and AleG) are going to vehemently challenge any hint of evidence that Nomsod was one of the perps of that crime. The fact remains that he was a prime suspect initially, he avoided police for a week, he avoided a DNA test for several weeks, until it was assured that his DNA wouldn't match the DNA from the victim. Of course it's questionable whether the DNA labeled 'from Hannah' is really what it claims to be. We're waiting for independent British verification of the DNA trail, but the Brits don't have all the DNA samples (Thai officials won't share with them), and the Brits have shown that they're adverse to rocking the Thaitanic ship of state.

As for no evidence of Nomsod being on the island or being involved: Again, there's some evidence which the Gang of 4 are spooked about: The KT CCTV footage which shows Nomsod looking spooked, in the minutes right after the crime. the face, his gait, the haircut, the thin tall body (none of the B are tall) and his odd mannerisms (left arm bent as if clutching his belly) - all indicate it's Nomsod.

Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people. The ensuing weeks/months of testimony should be interesting, although the people who should be the prime suspects, aren't, and we all know the real reasons why they're no longer prime suspects.

The whole case turned 180 degrees, in an hour, when the replacement head cop came down from Bkk.

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

I think the motivation for people posting here is to get the truth, and to give the two defendants an opportunity for a fair trial. Hopefully to make the rtp more accountable in the future. And hopefully make Thailand a safer place.

But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them. Especially from the way that the entire investigation was carried out. And knowing how money can buy out cops. Further more, I wonder why people need to defend the rtp statement if in their mind it's already true. If it's true, let it be and enjoy the show. Or is it their desire to convince themselves that it's true.

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

So tell me if you believe in the police statement as the truth or not?

Maybe he shouldn't lump you in to the group, but you being the logical guy, ignored other illogical statements made by the other three. Which leads people to believe that you are part of the gang. As you seem to rebut almost every post made questioning the RTP. Just be fair and rebut others that is defending the police statement. This way you won't be misunderstood.

I don't put you in that group though. Unless you tell me that you think 100% that the police report is not tainted. You just state what is already been reported. Many here are talking about probabilities. And do not believe the police and their shoddy investigation.

I think everyone here is trying to find the truth. If you have the truth, please share with us. But don't tell me that the truth is in the police statement. Because no one knows if it's true or not. Unless you want to tell me that we should wait till the trial. It may be too late to save two innocent lives. Sorry, I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[fritzzz25]

"The true aim of the prosecution should be to seek the truth rather than merely seek a conviction."

Taken from http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/RS_No53/No53_28PA_Kesornsiricharoen.pdf

THE ROLE AND FUNCTION OF PUBLIC PROSECUTORS IN THAILAND

A laudable objective, but one (unfortunately) that conflicts with their career prospects. Proving that the accused are innocent means they lose the case.

But in this the case, the Defense Counsel/Supporters already proclaim to know the truth -- that those charged are innocent of all charges -- they just for now it seems have no way to prove it.

Since when is it the burden of defense counsel to prove the innocence of an accused? Did the courts change around the world today?

[elektrified]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

Dislike.

+1 despicable

[JLCrab]

"The true aim of the prosecution should be to seek the truth rather than merely seek a conviction."

Taken from http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/RS_No53/No53_28PA_Kesornsiricharoen.pdf

THE ROLE AND FUNCTION OF PUBLIC PROSECUTORS IN THAILAND

A laudable objective, but one (unfortunately) that conflicts with their career prospects. Proving that the accused are innocent means they lose the case.

But in this the case, the Defense Counsel/Supporters already proclaim to know the truth -- that those charged are innocent of all charges -- they just for now it seems have no way to prove it.

Since when is it the burden of defense counsel to prove the innocence of an accused? Did the courts change around the world today?

You're absolutely right -- but all I read is how the defense is looking for witnesses in Thailand, Myanmar, UK, Bukina Faso, etc., to help prove the innocence of those charged or at least to contradict the prosecution's case.

Edited December 24, 2014 by JLCrab

[fritzzz25]

"You're absolutely right -- but all I read is how the defense is looking for witnesses in Thailand, Myanmar, UK, Bukina Faso, etc., to help prove the innocence of those charged or at least to contradict the prosecution's case."

Well I am sure prosecution witnesses are going to be from KT. They know that if their evidence doesn't "fit" what certain locals want it to be, they will likely be facing some form of punishment. It is quite apparent that the hierarchy of the island is known and the B2 are obviously on the bottom rung of the ladder.

Would witnesses lie? Well, we just learned that witness 40 (search Sandra McElroy in google news) in the Darren Wilson grand jury indictment was a serial liar and the police knew this yet the district attorney allowed her to give evidence.

There is no doubt that the fix is in. Worldwide there have been cases of cover ups done by police in order to "fix" their screw ups, as well to point the finger at innocent people. Very few posters on this forum actually believe that there are no flaws in this investigation and that it has been done "by the book" and there is no doubt in their minds that these two Burmese boys killed this two.

Edited December 24, 2014 by fritzzz25

[HansIsaan]

Solid evidence of Nomsod in Bangkok:

Witness statements: Where? Who, Source?

University Staff statements: Where, who, source?

Student statements: Where, who, source?

University records: Source?

Investigators confirmation looking into this: The RTP investigating! that's a first, show me the source for that please.

Stating there's solid evidence is not enough in the real world without backing up your claims

Four hospitals have now confirmed that the DNA samples taken Thursday from Warot Tuwichian do not match those taken from the Koh Tao murder scene ... "Mr Warot is not a suspect in the case but he has cooperated with us well. As far as the police are concerned, he was cleared long ago. We only did this [DNA tests] to comply with his wish to prove his innocence to the public....... http://bit.ly/1DNvcDB and BK Post

He was cleared long before offering his DNA because there was solid proof he was not on the island but somehow you will only believe speculation and disregard all things official unless you have specifics to an investigation that you are not part of and certainly have no business knowing about personal information about those not involved and there should be no reason to believe even slightly they were involved.

But really up to you if you want to stray into fantasy about a case that is pretty cut and dry with two defendants about to stand trial whose DNA was found in the victims and just from what we know there are witnesses and physical evidence tying them to the crime as well as UK Investigators, who have examined the case and evidence first hand and questioned Thai Police, who have indicated to the families the evidence is strong and credible and that there is more we don't even know about.

Hundreds of suspects ruled out, numerous leads and accusations from Police which didn't pan out and their ability to admit such-- never a fear of publicly accusing the headman's son and after weeks they found the right guys from the limited number of people on the island.

This really is what appears to be a very straight forward case and close to an open and shut one beyond the nonsense conspiracy theories that keep getting knocked down only to resurface by those desperate to feed their need for conspiracies and distrust of Thai authorities despite any rational reason to believe anyone else committed these crimes and any motivation to cover up for a person who did or any reason to believe the DNA does match except of an incident years ago which a person claimed non-uniformed cops kidnapped him and tried to get his sperm but failed then let him go on his merry way.

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

Dislike.

+1 despicable

+1 disgusting

[JLCrab]

"You're absolutely right -- but all I read is how the defense is looking for witnesses in Thailand, Myanmar, UK, Bukina Faso, etc., to help prove the innocence of those charged or at least to contradict the prosecution's case."

Well I am sure prosecution witnesses are going to be from KT. They know that if their evidence doesn't "fit" what certain locals want it to be, they will likely be facing some form of punishment. It is quite apparent that the hierarchy of the island is known and the B2 are obviously on the bottom rung of the ladder.

Would witnesses lie? Well, we just learned that witness 40 (search Sandra McElroy in google news) in the Darren Wilson grand jury indictment was a serial liar and the police knew this yet the district attorney allowed her to give evidence.

There is no doubt that the fix is in. Worldwide there have been cases of cover ups done by police in order to "fix" their screw ups, as well to point the finger at innocent people. Very few posters on this forum actually believe that there are no flaws in this investigation and that it has been done "by the book" and there is no doubt in their minds that these two Burmese boys killed this two.

In a US grand-jury there is no cross-examination of witnesses by a potential defense. If, at the Koh Samui trial, the prosecution offers a series of witnesses who are lying under oath, the defense will have a chance to unravel their claims or possibly contradict their claims with what other witnesses have 'truthfully' claimed.

Edited December 24, 2014 by JLCrab

[AleG]

"Those two factors, among others which implicate Nomsod, are going to continue to be hotly contested by the Gang of 4 and Thai officials , and it's obvious why: They're committed to shielding the Headman's people."

Is that something you tell yourself in the mirror in the morning, "the Gang of 4 are shielding the headman's people" to motivate yourself? Come down to reality.

\

I think the motivation for people posting here is to get the truth, and to give the two defendants an opportunity for a fair trial. Hopefully to make the rtp more accountable in the future. And hopefully make Thailand a safer place.

But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them. Especially from the way that the entire investigation was carried out. And knowing how money can buy out cops. Further more, I wonder why people need to defend the rtp statement if in their mind it's already true. If it's true, let it be and enjoy the show. Or is it their desire to convince themselves that it's true.

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

So tell me if you believe in the police statement as the truth or not?

Maybe he shouldn't lump you in to the group, but you being the logical guy, ignored other illogical statements made by the other three. Which leads people to believe that you are part of the gang. As you seem to rebut almost every post made questioning the RTP. Just be fair and rebut others that is defending the police statement. This way you won't be misunderstood.

I don't put you in that group though. Unless you tell me that you think 100% that the police report is not tainted. You just state what is already been reported. Many here are talking about probabilities. And do not believe the police and their shoddy investigation.

I think everyone here is trying to find the truth. If you have the truth, please share with us. But don't tell me that the truth is in the police statement. Because no one knows if it's true or not. Unless you want to tell me that we should wait till the trial. It may be too late to save two innocent lives. Sorry, I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What I have said over and over again is that I want to see how the evidence stands up to scrutiny in court, and in the meantime I take a stand about people that spread speculation based on at best third hand accounts, partial information, conflicting reports, outright misinformation and not a small dose of prejudice.

[thailandchilli]

But you keep missing that one vital factor, "a fair and transparent trial" In a fair and transparent trial the DNA for start would be sent back for independent verification or made not admissible

Without a fair trial then it really does not matter what evidence is presented either way. At the moment the likelihood of that happening is remote.

[AleG]

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

I would like to know the truth based on the truth.

The gang of 4 get mentioned on a regular outing as they seem to have this undenying belief of what the police release.

Ask yourself a question, Who would you fit as the most likely person to be the running man ? A Thai male or one of the 2 Burmese.

I'm not asking you to tell me again it was proved the Thai male wasn't on the island at the time. I'm asking you to tell me which of the 3 most resembles the running man.

Since the one you want to pin the ID on was not on the island at the time, it leaves only two options, of the two, in my opinion Zaw Lin has a resemblance to the man on the CCTV footage more than Win Zaw, specially the hairstyle (since then he had it cut).

[rockingrobin]

Can we clarify if the defendants got dna tested twice, at time of arrest and when they was pictured in a line

[AleG]

Can we clarify if the defendants got dna tested twice, at time of arrest and when they was pictured in a line

They gave samples twice, first during a mass DNA testing on the island and second a few days later after being arrested; there is no definitive information that after the first samples were given the DNA was tested before their arrest.

[rockingrobin]

But it is reported that the initial sample had been sent, what was the need to re-test

And why wad the headman/brother dna test using blood and not a saliva swab

[greenchair]

British detectives who travelled to Thailand after concerns were raised about the investigation into the murder of two British tourists had a very narrow role while there and viewed only limited aspects of the case, the Metropolitan police has said.

In the first public statement about the extent of British police involvement in the inquiry into the killings of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller on the holiday island of Koh Tao in September, the Met said its officers did not conduct any investigations into the murders themselves.

Two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, who have alleged they were tortured by Thai police following their arrest, are due to go on trial on 26 December.

The defence lawyers have not been allowed access to the prosecution case, and they and the rights group Reprieve wrote to the Met requesting that it hand over any relevant information.

However, the Mets legal services team wrote back to say the force did not hold any details of the case. Its letter to Reprieve said: The Thai authorities permitted the UK police officers to have observer status only in relation to limited parts of the Royal Thai polices investigation, and the UK police officers did not provide any advice or assistance with that investigation.

They did not take possession of any physical evidence, forensic evidence, exhibits, interviews or statements. The Royal Thai police provided an interpreter who verbally translated documents that formed limited parts of the prosecution case.

They might as well have not bothered.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/police-thai-inquiry-britons-murder?

Totally agree and a total disappointment for all those who thought the UK Police had the ethics to do something towards finding the guilty.

They've obviously been sent over to appease the interested (outraged) public by a Govt, that couldn't give two hoots about these kids deaths. And this after they stated they were concerned with aspects of the case and wanted independent verification of DNA samples. They've simply gone through the motions, swallowed the gumph from the Thai police and returned home. Even worse though, they've gone and then fed that same nonsense gumph back to the families who trust their police force and so swallow it themselves. Incredulously,they then make ill-timed statements that have completely undermined the defence of the Burmese and could well play a major part in their demise.

I hope to God that they are guilty or we will have a situation of four young lives possibly ended and at the least two ruined, all aided and abetted (albeit in the families case unknowingly) by police forces from both sides and by the victims families themselves. What a tragic situation we have.

The Thai's themselves sent this case back 4-5 times was it? How on earth are the UK Police happy with this? That;s not even mentioning the rest of the circus that they must have had some knowledge of. It truly is a sham from them!

Did they even bother taking samples from Hannah when she returned home? I'm beginning to wonder if they even bothered to do that. Shamed to be English at the moment!

Keep up the pressure though folks, Cameron, Kent, Hugo Swain (FCO), Jonathan Head (BBC Thailand) all have twitter accounts! Anyone has any other suggestible avenues to question the Brit involvement let us know.,. wink, wink!

Great post couldn't have said it better myself.

[DM07]

The most interesting part of the DNA-testing (and all the fumbling, misinformation and shameful theater of the RTP in unison with the headman's family): when asked, why the headman's family was able to refuse the DNA-testing, some (of the many) policemen (who can not keep their mouth shut, when a microphone pops up) said, it was their "human right to do so"!

Just a few words: 200 odd Myanmar- workers on the island got rounded up and got their DNA tested (some twice, if we are to believe the totally effed up narrative)!

Human rights, much???

[StealthEnergiser]

"But their are those who blindly believe what ever is fed them"

Yes, like who? Do you have any examples to share?

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

I would like to know the truth based on the truth.

The gang of 4 get mentioned on a regular outing as they seem to have this undenying belief of what the police release.

Ask yourself a question, Who would you fit as the most likely person to be the running man ? A Thai male or one of the 2 Burmese.

I'm not asking you to tell me again it was proved the Thai male wasn't on the island at the time. I'm asking you to tell me which of the 3 most resembles the running man.

Since the one you want to pin the ID on was not on the island at the time, it leaves only two options, of the two, in my opinion Zaw Lin has a resemblance to the man on the CCTV footage more than Win Zaw, specially the hairstyle (since then he had it cut).

not sure if I agree with you AleG but if you mentioned this person that would be a different story

[cup-O-coffee]

This thread should be bumped to "Ask a Lawyer" section, LOL. Can Myanmar "witnesses" be considered legitimate if they do not have visas and work permits, or even passports, and are in Thailand illegally? Anyone considered that? I do not know, so that is why I am asking; is an illegal alien able to testify in court here?

EDIT: Come to think of it... are the accused illegal aliens and does that have any bearing on things?

Edited December 24, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[Krenjai]

In the "early" days before the RTP head-investigator was released they clearly were zooming in on the culprits. The RTP believed to have positively identified 2 suspects on the CCTV footage. Suspect 1: M, the manager of the AC bar & brother of the local head man & Suspect 2, NS, the son of the village headman who they believed fled to Bangkok. The police also stated that (and I quote) "

"Police earlier said the men are believed to have been in a bar and involved or watching a confrontation involving the British woman (Hannah) and followed the tourists as they left."

As mentioned before, my scenario will ONLY change if I can see independently verified DNA from the victims against fresh B2 samples, if that will not be case, I think THIS is what happened:

I believe the above statement by the RTP to be correct. Hannah was "targeted" the minute she walked in (possibly for a date rape) and was involved in some kind of hassle in the bar (maybe she saw people tried to KO-drop her). She left and was probably followed to "teach her a lesson", this is why some stories have popped up, the place where she was found is not where it all started. She was dragged to the beach by probably 4 or 5 wannabee bad boys.

As things evolved, David came home and must have seen/heard something, and tried to save her (right Sean?). He paid with his life, his injuries (on his body & face & his knuckles) showed he fought with his attackers, as per the RTP own statement.

He was drowned, stripped naked (they forgot one sock) , dropped a condom and painted a lovers rage scenario with Hannah put in position with her knees/legs up 45 degrees, I tell you, Picasso couldn't have done a better job. This also explains no DNA from David on the hoe, it explains his wounds (push knifes), it explains water in his lungs, it explains everything. Hannah was savagely hit with the hoe to paint the rage scenario or as some have said to "revenge" the loss of face on what happened in the bar earlier. They escaped KT by speedboats (Lucky Duck probably being one of them), M stayed behind to tamper & paint the crime-scene and also to oversee the investigation on what they knew.

The above is what I think happened, it is IMHO.......and I hope (although unlikely) some eyewitnesses will come forward to get these punks!

M & NS, they will get you!

Edited December 24, 2014 by Krenjai

[Vejo]

This thread should be bumped to "Ask a Lawyer" section, LOL. Can Myanmar "witnesses" be considered legitimate if they do not have visas and work permits, or even passports, and are in Thailand illegally? Anyone considered that? I do not know, so that is why I am asking; is an illegal alien able to testify in court here?

EDIT: Come to think of it... are the accused illegal aliens and does that have any bearing on things?

I don't know but it was reported the interpreter/interrogater employed to assist the "confession" was Rohingya With him being stateless and therefore without a passport (but curiously working so not a refugee) I would guess status is not a consideration. Any witness could simply produce receipts for the reported Bt500 a month they pay the police to stay on the island as proof of the validity of their stays, free of any worry of future retribution... Possibly.

[falangjim]

@JTJ

Regardless of the truth of the past incident -- ALL countries have histories of corrupt police and planting of evidence. Yes it should make people reasonable question police (one reason for trials) but the key is "reasonably" question and not go off into fantasy land. There is NOTHING in this case to suggest the DNA was planted or manipulated in a way to match the two defendants in fact there are a vast number of reason to make this theory completely implausible.

Things may have been handled sloppy in some respects and police may have went to far in getting a confession but nothing to indicate they don't have the right people in custody and A LOT that indicates they do.

Wow, for the big swinging dcik you claim to be, your writing could really use some help.

Things may have been handled SLOPPILY in some respects and police may have GONE TOO far in getting a confession....

In addition, the RTP have the wrong people in jail. They are scapegoats and anyone with half a brain in their head knows this.

[boomerangutang]

Obviously boomerangutang is not looking for the truth, based on his compulsive repetition of the "Gang of 4 ...committed to shielding the Headman's people"

He's been told repeatedly that is not the case, he continues doing it, so he is not interested on the truth; he wants to convince himself of a "truth" that makes him look more righteous, facts don't get into it.

I am seeking the truth. If the B2 are shown via strong evidence to have been a part of the crime (even if they raped H after her death, or stole from the scene afterwards), then they should be punished for that. Strongest evidence, thus far, is the DNA match - yet it's veracity is seriously in doubt. That's why there would need to be supporting evidence from a DNA trail independently put together by Brit experts, to convince a skeptic like me.

One difference between me and AleG in relation to the crime investigation, is I'm open to the B2 being found guilty, if the evidence supports it. In contrast, AleG vehemently opposes anything which implicates any of the Headman's people, which include: Nomsod, Mon, Stingray man, or Mon's cop friend. That translates to 'shielding the Headman's people.'

[Krenjai]

Nobody can imagine the pain the parents of David & Hannah are going through! Nobody, unless you have been through a very similar event like losing your beloved children by a brutal horrific murder. I am sure that they want justice done, like 99% of the people on this forum or any other social media platforms. We all want the same, that the real killers will get what they deserve. It will never bring back David or Hannah, therefore it is so important the real culprits get caught.

I am glad the statement of the parents contained the word "appears". Indeed and of course the evidence appears to be convincing & powerful, it was the RTP evidence that was presented to the British investigators. However, now that we know the Brits did virtually nothing to question the integrity of that evidence what is the next step? Watching these boys get convicted and probably killed by lethal injection? That can never give any closure to anybody, it is murder too! I want to stop this murder!

[thailandchilli]

Well there we have it, now officially a monk...............obviously decided to leave University and everything else behind him, his karma is in obvious need of some input from above

[boomerangutang]

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Well there we have it, now officially a monk...............obviously decided to leave University and everything else behind him, his karma is in obvious need of some input from above

A not uncommon refuge for Thais wanting to avoid publicity and repercussions for crimes. At least two former top Thai politicians who did bad for their country, ran to join the Sangha - knowing it would shield them from legal repercussions. Nomsod is obviously not a politician, but he's run off to the Sangha for the same reasons: hoping it will shield him from legal problems. It has nothing to do with studying Buddhism or sincerely wanting to be a monk.

[jimmybkk]

What I have said over and over again is that I want to see how the evidence stands up to scrutiny in court, and in the meantime I take a stand about people that spread speculation based on at best third hand accounts, partial information, conflicting reports, outright misinformation and not a small dose of prejudice.

Regarding your first statement (in bold), would you mind confirming how you intend seeing the evidence stand up to scrutiny in court? You seem to have some knowledge of the legal system here so I am assuming you are fluent in Thai and will be attending the trial in person. Otherwise how will you know what evidence will have been scrutinized, what evidence has been overlooked, what evidence has been looked at briefly and what has been deemed inadmissible by the judge? Or do you mean that you will make your assessment of how the evidence stood up to scrutiny based on the outcome of the trial? If the latter then I would like to retract my earlier statement that you seem to have some knowledge of the legal system here.

Regarding the second part of your post (not bold), well, it looks like for once we actually agree about something. The problem as I see it though is that the behaviour you describe, as well as corruption, is just so engrained in the RTP that I fear it will take more than the likes of you and I to change things. But I do applaud you for taking a stand...