Farang Prince Dies In Thai Jail

[sriracha john]

Hohenlohe was in a weakened state after a significant weight loss, collapsed and was left on the jail cell floor for four hours before being taken to a hospital

How much time passed between the first moan until Kiko was brought to the prison hospital? Lerwitworapong opens his arms: “This, I do cannot know. I know that I was at home, a nurse called me for an urgent treatment of Mr. Cristoff. I live 30-45 minutes from here. When I arrived I found the patient in serious condition. We administered insulin because his blood sugar level was 600 whereas the normal level is little more than 100. When we had done everything we would with the means at our disposal, we alerted Nonthavej Hospital

The above 2 quotes indicate a serious problem with both the prison and the prison hospital. Difficult to characterize his death as unlucky as it would seem based on the above to have been wholly, or at least partially, preventable.

Unless these articles are erroneous, in which case, it raises the question of why there was so much suppression of the news leading to erroneous reporting and volumes of speculation that came out to fill the void. If everything was above board and his death was truly an unpreventable accident, there would be no need for sweeping it under the carpet.

The Prince's death SHOULD be fully investigated and fully reported on... otherwise similar deaths will occur again, which would only go to further reinforce the preventable nature of the Prince's death.

Edited September 1, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Hohenlohe was in a weakened state after a significant weight loss, collapsed and was left on the jail cell floor for four hours before being taken to a hospital

How much time passed between the first moan until Kiko was brought to the prison hospital? Lerwitworapong opens his arms: “This, I do cannot know. I know that I was at home, a nurse called me for an urgent treatment of Mr. Cristoff. I live 30-45 minutes from here. When I arrived I found the patient in serious condition. We administered insulin because his blood sugar level was 600 whereas the normal level is little more than 100. When we had done everything we would with the means at our disposal, we alerted Nonthavej Hospital

The above 2 quotes indicate a serious problem with both the prison and the prison hospital. Difficult to characterize his death as unlucky as it would seem based on the above to have been wholly, or at least partially, preventable.

Unless these articles are erroneous, in which case, it raises the question of why there was so much suppression of the news leading to erroneous reporting and volumes of speculation that came out to fill the void. If everything was above board and his death was truly an unpreventable accident, there would be no need for sweeping it under the carpet.

The Prince's death SHOULD be fully investigated and fully reported on... otherwise similar deaths will occur again, which would only go to further reinforce the preventable nature of the Prince's death.

Those two articles are partly erroneous.

The statement of the timelapse of four hours was never established as a fact, and is based on speculation and hearsay. As was most of what was reported on Prince Hohenlohe's death. Unfortunately this was to a large part the fault of the authorities, in particular the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the immigration and the courts, who have been obfuscating the issue, and still do. The prison authorities though were unusually straightforward and open.

A problem of course lies with the media, which is expected by the public in the west, unused to the extend of obfuscation the Thai authorities are prepared to go, to report before facts have been properly established.

Thai authorities from whatever political, or departmental corner have never been exactly known for their openess to the media, unless forced to, and when in their own selfinterest.

Most of the first stories in the papers have been based on interviews with the family, who were also not given much information by the authorities, and therefore not exactly the right people to ask about what actually went wrong there.

Yes, common sense would dictate that there should not have been a need to swipe this issue under the carpet. But common sense and government policy are somewhat of an oxymoron anywhere in the world.

And yes, there should be an open inquiry, but there are many things that should be done. I believe that in most governments in the world (and especially in Thailand) the inquiries that are done will unfortnately aim at who is going to take the fall. Which more often than not is not the guilty party, but the weakest link.

I believe that one of the reasons for attempting to swipe this issue under the carpet is, that as soon the authorities realised the extend of the problem the simply panicked. And of course the opposite has been reached - the damage cannot be controlled anymore. They might have hoped that the problem will go away by itself, which it obviously won't, especially as it now appearantly, given Pramuan's sudden interest, became part of a completely unrelated and selfserving political agenda.

And, here in Thailand (and not just here...) authorities prefer to deal with such an issue internally because of the huge embarrassment.

Edited September 1, 2006 by ColPyat

[sriracha john]

A good place to start the investigation is with his medical treatment. If he collapsed in the prison, how long was he allowed to remain on the floor before being taken to the hospital. If not 4 hours, then how long?

How many prisoners are there at the Bangkok Remand Prison? Does the population not justify having a doctor onboard 24/7? What level of training does the medical staff have? What treatments, if any, were instituted prior to the arrival of the doctor? What was the extent of treatment the doctor did provide, once he arrived the better part of an hour after being notified? How long was he treated at the prison hospital before they sought transfer to another hospital?

A complete and thorough investigation of the medical care (or obvious lack thereof) the Prince received is paramount in this case to preclude a reoccurence. Unfortunately, with all the passage of time since the death, any investigation now into the documentation, and it's genuineness, related to that care is dubious.

Of course, we are talking about a prison hospital and in particular, one located in Thailand and I wouldn't expect much at all in terms of the competency of the staff nor their facilities, but at the end of the Prince's day... that is what killed him until it can be shown otherwise.

The circumstances arising from his arrest and confinement order, the refusal of his bail, family and embassy notification issues, the suppression of the news, etc. are all absolutely critical points to investigate... and they all merit that in their own right, but none of them directly resulted in his death.

Edited September 1, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

A good place to start the investigation is with his medical treatment. If he collapsed in the prison, how long was he allowed to remain on the floor before being taken to the hospital. If not 4 hours, then how long?

How many prisoners are there at the Bangkok Remand Prison? Does the population not justify having a doctor onboard 24/7? What level of training does the medical staff have? What treatments, if any, were instituted prior to the arrival of the doctor? What was the extent of treatment the doctor did provide, one he arrived the better part of an hour later? How long was he treated at the prison hospital before they sought transfer to another hospital?

A complete and thorough investigation of the medical care (or obvious lack thereof) the Prince received is paramount in this case to preclude a reoccurence. Unfortunately, with all the passage of time since the death, any investigation now into the documentation, and it's genuineness, related to that care is dubious.

Of course, we are talking about a prison hospital and in particular, one located in Thailand and I wouldn't expect much at all in terms of the competency of the staff nor their facilities, but at the end of the Prince's day... that is what killed him until it can be shown otherwise.

The circumstances arising from his arrest and confinement order, the refusal of his bail, family and embassy notification issues, the suppression of the news, etc. are all absolutely critical points to investigate... and they all merit that in their own right, but none of them directly resulted in his death.

The prisoner was treated right away by nurses and doctors in the prison hospital, an excellent and modern facility only a few hundred meters away from the Bangkok Remand Prison in the same compound. The doctor mentioned in the article is the director of this facility and was called from home because of the serious condition of the patent. The prince, who arrived barely conscious, was given insulin intraveniously as soon as a diabetic shock was diagnosed. He was also diagnosed with a blood infection and pneunomia.

He was referred to the better equipped Nonthavej Hospital down the road after 4 hours, when his condition did not improve. He fell into koma and died there at the 8th in an ICU room.

No, there was no "obvious lack" of medical attention. This was thouroughly investigated straight after the death of the prince.

[sriracha john]

Is it the prison's normal protocol to call in the medical director from home and wait an hour for his arrival if the attending doctors at the prison have a serious case, rather than transferring the patient straight away to Nonthavej? How far away is the other hospital? I recall reading earlier it was across the street from the prison.

[ColPyat]

Is it the prison's normal protocol to call in the medical director from home and wait an hour for his arrival if the attending doctors at the prison have a serious case, rather than transferring the patient straight away to Nonthavej? How far away is the other hospital? I recall reading earlier it was across the street from the prison.

The Nonthavej Hospital is maybe a kilometer down the road from the Lard Yao/Klong Prem Prison complex, next to The Mall Ngamwongwan.

Normal prison protocol is to transfer serious cases to the Police Hospital. In this case though the director decided to have the patient transferred to the closer Nonthavej hospital, a first class private hospital. You cannot expect the director of the hospital to be present 24/7, so there are times when he has to be called from home. As this is a prison, not any nurse or doctor can decide on a transfer. There are not only European royals incarcerated, but hardened criminals as well. So, obvioulsy security protocols have to be observed.

I am not a medical doctor, but i would assume that the doctors in the prison hospital have first given the necessary treatment, and only after that failed have ordered the transfer.

As much as you look for foul play - people do die at times, and doctors are not magicians.

The day before his collapse his mother visited him in jail. She reported no sign of sickness of the prince. Neither his family nor the prince were aware of the Prince having diabetes. It is clear therfore that his diabetic shock came on very sudden. This also shows that the prison authorities have reacted fast.

I would rather direct your attention to the courts. The so far unsolved question still is: Why have the courts not granted bail to the Prince, even though it was repeatedly requested by his lawyers, even though he had no previous record, even though the crime was a relatively minor issue that usually is granted bail?

The only explanation so far is that the Prince has appearantly either "argued", or in some other way aggrevated the courts. But is that a legal reason to deny bail? I have my doubts there. Just read the thread about the imrisoned Dane, and make your own conclusion on the quality of Thailand's court system. And that question leads to far larger issues here presently in Thailand...

Edited September 1, 2006 by ColPyat

[sriracha john]

Can only the medical director authorize a patient transfer? If the doctor treating the Prince prior to the arrival of the medical director had the authority to transfer a patient, it would have been medically expedient to send the Prince directly to another hospital, even if it was, according to protocol, to the Police hospital.

If it requires the medical director's authority to transfer patients, can he grant this over the phone? This, again, would have expedited the Prince to the other hospital rather than waiting for him to reach the prison.

If the only authorized manner to transfer a patient to any other advanced-care facility is for the medical director to be physically present at the time of transfer, well then, that has the potential for disaster... as was happened to the Prince exemplifies. It’s a protocol that certainly needs review and revision.

I wouldn't expect the medical director to be present at the prison 24/7. If the doctors that are on duty at the prison hospital are incapable of making the determination of whether or not a patient needs to be medically transferred, then the aforementioned competency comes into play.

Yes, a prisoner was involved, but laying unconscious on a gurney, I wouldn't imagine the Prince posed much of an escape risk. Once the medical decision to transfer a patient is made, what other personnel require concurrence before the transfer is actually made? How long did this delay his transfer?

I'm not looking for foul play in terms of murder, I'm just pointing to the some of the issues that lean heavily towards negligence and/or inherently dangerous established protocols. These are the kinds of questions that would come up during any Peer Review, Quality of Care Committee investigations, Coroner’s Inquests, and the like in the West. I’m well aware that Thailand, being Thailand, most likely has none of these within their prison system, but it is precisely these types of mechanisms that result in improved care seen at other hospitals in Thailand. They are rudimentary before declaring a place as “an excellent and modern facility.” They are of particular value in examining unexpected deaths to preclude their reoccurrence. The death of a 49 year-old from previously undiagnosed diabetes, septicemia, and pneumonia is certainly in that category.

I would not say the prison authorities “reacted fast” at all. Quite the contrary, they were slow to even move the Prince to the prison hospital in the first place. Even putting aside the contested “4 hours,” anything more 10 minutes being left on a floor after collapsing is excessive. He’s then being treated at the prison hospital, but isn’t transferred to an advanced-care facility for four hours…and in a medical emergency situation, four hours is a huge block of time.

I absolutely agree other issues surrounding the Prince warrant investigation as well, with the bail refusal certainly being one of them. However, as stated… that’s not what directly resulted in his death.

[lukamar]

He’s then being treated at the prison hospital, but isn’t transferred to an advanced-care facility for four hours…and in a medical emergency situation, four hours is a huge block of time.

I'll only chime in on what i know about here.

Patients are never transfered until their condition has been stabilized. A poorly equipped clinic or a prison hospital is probably better equipped to handle a medical emergency, ie:- crash cart, drugs personnel, than an ambulance in Thailand or elsewhere, even for a 1 KM trip. Getting a stabilized patient ready for transfer can take up to an hour or more in a regular hospital. It's not only the patient that is transfered but the P&H and treatment records as well. Then you have the admitting time and re-evaluation times to consider added on to that. Four hours total time is not out of the ordinary in North America as you have to see how the patient is responding to treatment.

Having multiple major life threatening traumas, diabetic coma and Septicemia, makes it very difficult to diagnose, treat and stabilize in four hours. I'm betting that if you landed in Johns Hopkins, with the same symptoms, they would be hard pressed to treat you in that window of time.

[sriracha john]

A hospital in the West wouldn't require a 4 hour window to determine the need for transfer. In an example like the Prince's case, a competent doctor should be able to evaluate whether the treatment is being effective or not.

As we'll never be privy to the specifics of what his treatment consisted of nor the specifics of how his deterioration progressed, but the chain of events is certainly suspect.

It doesn't take long at all to determine a person's glucose level nor if the have a infection. Very rapid blood tests can give you those results. Treatment can be initiated in very short order. If those treatments failed to produced the desired effects within a reasonable range of time (NOT four hours btw), transfer should have been sought.

The initial delay of being provided any treatment at all while he laid unconscious on the prison floor for an unknown amount of time certainly compounded the problem and should have been considered when treatment was initiated and should have been a factor in determining how soon a transfer was sought.

I understand the realities that this is a Thailand prison hospital being discussed, and that no one should expect much at all regarding medical treatment in terms of either staff or facility, but it's disheartening to hear the kind of time frames involved, the protocols utilized, and the lack of investigation. It's a bit perplexing to read descriptions of the place as a "an excellent and modern facility.” The available information doesn't match with that.

btw, IF the Prince had been admitted to John Hopkins, the most likely outcome would be that he would be back in his Hawaii condo by now, instead of buried in Spain.

Edited September 2, 2006 by sriracha john

[lukamar]

It doesn't take long at all to determine a person's glucose level nor if the have a infection. Very rapid blood tests can give you those results. Treatment can be initiated in very short order. If those treatments failed to produced the desired effects within a reasonable range of time (NOT four hours btw), transfer should have been sought.

As we will never be privy to the treatments he received there is little point speculating over it, but knowing general medical procedures one can make an educated guess, provided they are educated, otherwise it's just speculation and guesswork.

While, I'll give you, blood Glucose levels can readily be had, blood born infection results cannot be as they require a culture. Septicemia culture time is approximately 72 hours if the sample was not exposed to an antibiotic, then it's longer. Last time I checked that was 3 days, not what you can class as a "very rapid blood test". He was probably started on Cefazolin - 500mg to 1 Gr every 6/8 hours via IV for his infection, as that is the standard antibiotic given in Thailand for wide range coverage of S. pneumoniae, S. aureus, P. mirabilis, E. coli and Klebsiella, which cause 90%+ of all infections . This is one of the strongest and fastest acting antibiotics you can get and it DOES NOT show results in 4 hours. Results from Cefazolin treatment can reasonably be expected in 36 to 48 hours for Staph and Klebsiella infections.

I'd really love to hear more specific information on your revolutionary new "very rapid blood tests" for infectious blood born deceases, you may be onto something, as medical science has not been able to come up with anything at this point.

A hospital in the West wouldn't require a 4 hour window to determine the need for transfer.

Ever spent time in the ER in a Western hospital? It can take 4 hours to get someone to see you, with consults, on a busy day - let alone treat you for multiple unrelated traumas. BTW....

[sanook1]

wow that is a significant issue. Surely he should only have paid for his overstay. Its not as though hes defacing a banknote. A prince Jailed for writing in his own passport. People are not nice!!...did they both die?

RAI, the Italian television state network, reported last night that the son of the former Shah of Persia, now IRAN, and his first wife died after being held 6 days in a Thai jail

The TV report speccified that apparently the prince could not get on a flight out of Thailand in time for the visa expiration and decided to correct it himself by changing the date on the visa. He was cought at the airport and arrested. His family reported having posted bond...twice!!! The first time of 5000 USD and the second time of 6000 USD, but despite this, the prince was not released. He died after being held only six days. As to the cause of death, the family said the thai authorities would need at least two month for a response

[sriracha john]

It doesn't take long at all to determine a person's glucose level nor if the have a infection. Very rapid blood tests can give you those results. Treatment can be initiated in very short order. If those treatments failed to produced the desired effects within a reasonable range of time (NOT four hours btw), transfer should have been sought.

As we will never be privy to the treatments he received there is little point speculating over it, but knowing general medical procedures one can make an educated guess, provided they are educated, otherwise it's just speculation and guesswork.

While, I'll give you, blood Glucose levels can readily be had, blood born infection results cannot be as they require a culture. Septicemia culture time is approximately 72 hours if the sample was not exposed to an antibiotic, then it's longer. Last time I checked that was 3 days, not what you can class as a "very rapid blood test".

A white blood count and a differential can be done, by hand, in around 15 minutes (faster if an automated machine is used). Although the prison facility did have him for an excessive amount of time, I HAD presumed they didn't have blood culture results (which take 2 to 3 days for results) in the 4 hours they had the patient.

I'd really love to hear more specific information on your revolutionary new "very rapid blood tests" for infectious blood born deceases, you may be onto something, as medical science has not been able to come up with anything at this point.

See above. There's nothing revolutionary about it as a "WBC with diff" have been used to diagnose infections in an emergency situation for decades. Perhaps you've heard of it.

A hospital in the West wouldn't require a 4 hour window to determine the need for transfer.

Ever spent time in the ER in a Western hospital? It can take 4 hours to get someone to see you, with consults, on a busy day - let alone treat you for multiple unrelated traumas. BTW....

An ER in a Western hospital is a tertiary care facility most of the time. In the Prince's case, he was not at a tertiary care facility, but more likely a clinic setting if compared to Western standards. Any similar setting in the West would know their limitations very well and are well-versed in transferring patients to an advanced medical care facility in a quick and efficient manner.

I'd be very interested in seeing what type of investigation was conducted into the Prince's medical treatment, who conducted it, and the results of the findings.

I imagine it would be fairly easy to pick it to shreds.

Edited September 2, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

A hospital in the West wouldn't require a 4 hour window to determine the need for transfer. In an example like the Prince's case, a competent doctor should be able to evaluate whether the treatment is being effective or not.

As we'll never be privy to the specifics of what his treatment consisted of nor the specifics of how his deterioration progressed, but the chain of events is certainly suspect.

It's a bit perplexing to read descriptions of the place as a "an excellent and modern facility.” The available information doesn't match with that.

btw, IF the Prince had been admitted to John Hopkins, the most likely outcome would be that he would be back in his Hawaii condo by now, instead of buried in Spain.

It is a bit perplexing that you doubt the competence of the doctors, and the quality of the hospital without having neither seen the hospital nor spoken with the doctors. Generally this is called 'slander'. You may not be privy to the specifics, but others are.

The doctors have given right away treatment to the patient. It did not work. The doctors have transferred the patient to a first class facility. There he was right away treated in an ICU room. He fell into koma, and died. I do not see any sign of neglegience in these institutions. People do die at times.

Yet though you completely ignore the one place that is more than suspect, and not only in this case - the courts. Why is that so?

And, again, you engage in comparisms to the west, knowing that this is not the west (and, personally, i have my doubts that things in the west are as rosy as you make them appear). Maybe a developing nation is not the right place for you to live, if you have the constant need to compare things to "the west". Or you just enjoy to complain and engage in unfounded speculations wherever you are?

As to the John Hopkin's Hospital - this may be a place where magicians instead of doctors are employed, but it was hardly available in this case here as the Prince was imprisoned in Thailand, having been refused bail by the courts.

Here were only available a very modern prison hospital and a first rate private hospital, and merely competent doctors and nursing staff who have done their best to save the Prince's life.

[sriracha john]

My doubts regarding the competency of the staff are generated by the information that has been disclosed. The more information I learn, the greater the doubts become. The specifics are addressed in my posts.

To the best of my knowledge the courts were not directly involved in his medical treatment, thus I've not focused on them in this particular aspect of the case. As stated, they certainly bear discussion in their own right. Rather than "completely ignore them," which I haven't as I specifically mentioned them in my earlier post, I'm just focusing, for now, on one aspect of the many aspects involved in the death of the Prince. Complex issues are often best handled in such a manner.

That is "why it is so."

As for John Hopkins, I would direct your comments to the originator of that line of discussion, lukamar.

Edited September 2, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

My doubts regarding the competency of the staff are generated by the information that has been disclosed. The more information I learn, the greater the doubts become. The specifics are addressed in my posts.

As there hasn't been that much disclosed yet (to you), you should refrain from expressing your suspicions based on hearsay. You don't do anyone a favour by furthering the rumor mill. But i have pointed this out a while ago already, unfortunately to no avail.

[sriracha john]

What I have learned in this case is quite disturbing and I'm basing my suspicions on what has been disclosed to date. If you have more information, I'd be very much interested in hearing it as well as how you came upon this information.

If the press reports quoting the medical director are "heresay", than that would negate discussing about 98% of what we discuss on "Thailand News Clipping."

That's what people do on discussion forums..... discuss.

Hopefully, it's done so honestly.

[ColPyat]

What I have learned in this case is quite disturbing and I'm basing my suspicions on what has been disclosed to date. If you have more information, I'd be very much interested in hearing it as well as how you came upon this information.

If the press reports quoting the medical director are "heresay", than that would negate discussing about 98% of what we discuss on "Thailand News Clipping."

That's what people do on discussion forums..... discuss.

Hopefully, it's done so honestly.

I can imagine that you are interested. In the fullness of time you will get to hear about it.

But i fear that it will disappoint you.

About how i get information you appearantly do not get - well, for a start, being polite and holding back your constant accusations regarding "dishonesty" of certain posters (me) would go a long way...

Edited September 2, 2006 by ColPyat

[A_Traveller]

Hm....

It seems to me the issue here is the apparent failure to meet the 'duty of care' requirement which any incarcerating force in a civilised country would be expected to meet.

Also, whatever ones connexions, using a '70s style response 'in the fullness of time' to a 21st century problem is, at best, additional obfuscation, which only leads people to be further concerned as to the application of due process in this case.

Even if the Prince was unhelpful, and I have no evidence that he was, at his hearing, the onus would be on the staff at the remand centre to ensure his, and for that matter all other inmates, health. The 'news blackout' approach and the lack of clarity in responses can only engender a 'no smoke without fire' mentality.

It is to be accepted that no one wishes to stand up, in any culture, and say 'I failed', but there are ways and means to ensure that the growing international concern is ameliorated.

One other thing strikes me here, and that is that should this matter become more openly discussed in the Thai language press, then the royal connexions of the deceased would create a groundswell of concern. After all he really was related to individuals who had arrived in Bangkok for the celebrations.

Keeping the family waiting for answers for another two months may serve some individuals in the short term but it will ultimately do a grave long lasting disservice to the Kingdom and its reputation.

It is to be hoped that a better way is found soon.

In closing may I take this opportunity to offer my belated condolences

Regards

[Douggie Style]

Clash of the titans!

BTW as you both seem to know your stuff is meningococcal a problem here?

(only asking because have kids)

tar

[A_Traveller]

Recent news link re meningococcal

Regards

http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=22696

[ColPyat]

Hm....

It seems to me the issue here is the apparent failure to meet the 'duty of care' requirement which any incarcerating force in a civilised country would be expected to meet.

Also, whatever ones connexions, using a '70s style response 'in the fullness of time' to a 21st century problem is, at best, additional obfuscation, which only leads people to be further concerned as to the application of due process in this case.

Even if the Prince was unhelpful, and I have no evidence that he was, at his hearing, the onus would be on the staff at the remand centre to ensure his, and for that matter all other inmates, health. The 'news blackout' approach and the lack of clarity in responses can only engender a 'no smoke without fire' mentality.

I am very sorry, but given that 21st century Thailand is hardly comparable to 21st century western developed nations, a '70s style response does reflect the present 21st century attitude of the Thai authorities. There is very little you or me can do about that. I have went out on a stretch to disclose even that much here on a public forum. Mainly trying to minimise illinformed speculation, though appearanly to no avail.

And regarding the prison authorities (including the prison hospital) - i have already posted that they have been unusually open in access from outside inquiries. It is rather sad that they here get the brunt of the accusations, especially given that the authorities that have blocked any access, and still do so, seem to get away with their mistakes.

That, in turn, does reinforce their believe in not allowing any access at all. Which will make it more difficult to get access in the future. But that appearantly is something you people do not think too much about, for you it is all about spreading illinformed rumors based on the hearsay you get to read.

How about lobbying the courts and the immigration authorities to allow access, which they have not yet done?

The prison authorities have to act on order of the courts, the courts have refused bail to the Prince, not the prison authorities. The prison authorities have done all in their power to save the Prince's life. Access to their facilities was permitted. That is why you have been able to read quotes from the prison hospital director (and unfortunately incomplete ones).

Why do you think you have not yet read quotes from immigration or the courts regarding this case?

For many people in the real world, this and other cases are an uphill struggle, but that appearantly escapes your attention. You just like to engage in illinformed speculation on internet boards, no matter what damage you might do by doing this.

You guys expect Thailand to be like back in the west - it may be news to you - Thailand is not like the west. Thailand is a developing nation. You expect transperency in Thailand as you are used to in your developed homes - forget about it.

Or, think about that life in the west might be the better choice if you can't get used to Thailand's inherent social, economical and political problems.

[jdinasia]

[Douggie Style]

Hey A_Traveller, thanks old son!

[meemiathai]

Thanks ColPyat for all the effort made in your posts including the ones in the PTT thread.

Very nice posts.

[meemiathai]

It might be interesting to see what some farangs' complaints are if they live in an African jungle with the tribes.

It's no wonder that politicians have to lie all the time even if they don't want to. It's impossible to tell everyone the truth. Most people just cannot face reality.

[Maestro]

Apparently, it is not uncommon for somebody to be diabetic and not know it. How many of you reading this can say with certainty whether you are diabetic? When was the last time, if ever, you asked to have your blood sugar level checked?

The Prince’s mother and brother have been quoted in newspapers as saying that the Prince was at a luxury spa in Krabi for a crash diet. I do not know how accurate these reports are but if this is true it surprises me that the spa does not carry out some basic tests before putting a client on a severe dietary regimen, and if he is found to be diabetic he should obviously be given that information. Perhaps the spa had the Prince fill out a form, on which he checked “no” against diabetes (as he reportedly did on the prison’s questionnaire), not knowing that he was diabetic, but was this enough for the spa? I do not know.

There were times in the past when I had to fill out some sort of health questionnaire – and perhaps also some of you – not in a prison, of course. There is a list of diseases and you are asked if you have them by ticking either the “yes” box or the “no” box; there is no box for “I don’t know”. Knowing that I have never been diagnosed and/or treated for a particular disease I tick the “no” box – yet for all I know I might have that disease. This appears to have happened in the case of the Prince but, again according to foreign news reports, at the prison hospital the correct diagnosis was made immediately and appropriate treatment given.

For the rest, I join ColPyat in wondering why Immigration did not let the Prince off with a simple fine and, failing that, why the court did not grant bail. I do not wish to speculate, but the silence by the authorities involved is disturbing.

--------------

Maestro

[Donz]

STuff like this happends all over the place, seems that people think this only happends in Thailand

[sriracha john]

Hm....

It seems to me the issue here is the apparent failure to meet the 'duty of care' requirement which any incarcerating force in a civilised country would be expected to meet.

Also, whatever ones connexions, using a '70s style response 'in the fullness of time' to a 21st century problem is, at best, additional obfuscation, which only leads people to be further concerned as to the application of due process in this case.

Even if the Prince was unhelpful, and I have no evidence that he was, at his hearing, the onus would be on the staff at the remand centre to ensure his, and for that matter all other inmates, health. The 'news blackout' approach and the lack of clarity in responses can only engender a 'no smoke without fire' mentality.

It is to be accepted that no one wishes to stand up, in any culture, and say 'I failed', but there are ways and means to ensure that the growing international concern is ameliorated.

One other thing strikes me here, and that is that should this matter become more openly discussed in the Thai language press, then the royal connexions of the deceased would create a groundswell of concern. After all he really was related to individuals who had arrived in Bangkok for the celebrations.

Keeping the family waiting for answers for another two months may serve some individuals in the short term but it will ultimately do a grave long lasting disservice to the Kingdom and its reputation.

It is to be hoped that a better way is found soon.

In closing may I take this opportunity to offer my belated condolences

Regards

Very good points, Traveller.

Something that Thailand seems to be struggling with is that whether they want it or not, times are progressing, and the world-wide media is a fact of life.

Technology is a way of life now, even in Thailand. Whether it's the citizens' digital cameras recording events such as the pro-Thaksin thugs beating up women and old men at Central World Plaza, or volumes of sordid stories regarding John Karr's time in Thailand being published around the world... the new forms of technology are forcing Thailand to realize that the old methods of doing things are no longer applicable. The pro-Thaksin thugs were operating under the long-held concept that big wigs can get away with anything they please and the citizenry have no recourse. What they and their higher-up handlers failed to realize is that these events were being recorded using this widely-held technology (mobile phone cameras, digital camcorders, etc.) by the average person and then circulated for all to see and make their unbiased assessment of the events. The days of easy deniability due to the lack of this type of impartial picture/video are over.

Thailand is struggling to cope with this in official announcements as well. In John Karr's case, so many of the pronouncements by the Immigration Chief proved to be misleading or made up. Retraction after retraction was made, e.g. "he didn't actually say he picked her up from school, but I saw that once in a documentary, so I added it in"), which were extremely damaging to Thailand in terms of world-wide credibility. This in turn partially led to the many sordid distortions of reality regarding Thailand written by the swarms of media reps that wrote about to Thailand, further blackening its eye.

Thailand is learning it can no longer manipulate the news as it once was. Previous despots in Thailand's past didn't have to contend with the Nations independent 24-hour television news channel or ASTV-1. They controlled the television airwaves and the press uniformly. These despots didn't have to concern themselves with the Internet's world-wide access and distribution of news or discussions being held in forums like this. There was the "official word" and that was it... but those days are changed forever. The current despot, despite his technology background, hasn't updated these old customs and is why he frequently comes off with so much egg on his square-face. The spins and yarns he tries to weave using old methods of controlling the press and media don't work anymore.

Statements like "in due time, you'll learn what happened" don't hold water and ultimately create bigger disgraces when the inevitable happens, than if the authorities had been truthful and open from the beginning. Thailand is learning that now... granted it's a painful experience with each debacle that they try and muddle through. By suppressing the news regarding the Prince's death, it creates an air of suspicion... by delaying this portion and that fact... it only increase those suspicions.

Obviously, people up and down the line made mistakes and errors in judgment....from Immigration, Courts, and yes, even the highly-venerated prison hospital , people messed up. When Thailand wakes up to the fact that mistakes DO happen and that people AREN'T perfect and subsequently learns to deal with these in a transparent manner, the sooner Thailand can end its being the brunt of so much innuendo and speculation. The way to end speculation is to present MORE facts. It is NOT achieved by hiding and covering up and “playing tag” with the truth.

[lopburi3]

Thailand releases details of European aristocrat's death in custody

The Associated Press

Published: September 2, 2006

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/02/...ebritys_Son.php

[sriracha john]

thank you for the update, lopuburi

Thailand releases details of European aristocrat's death in custody

The Associated Press

Published: September 2, 2006

BANGKOK, Thailand Thai authorities released new details Saturday about the sudden death of actress Ira von Fuerstenberg's son last month while jailed in Bangkok, saying he succumbed to a blood infection and diabetes-related complications.

Christoph von Hohenlohe, 50, a citizen of Liechtenstein known by the nickname Kiko, was arrested July 29 at Bangkok's airport after authorities found he had falsified his visa by changing its expiration date, immigration police said.

While the court considered his case, he was detained at a Bangkok prison. He became ill on Aug. 5 and (after an unspecified amount of time) a prison doctor found that his blood sugar level was very high due to diabetes and sent him for treatment at the prison hospital, the Thai Foreign Ministry said.

Von Hohenlohe's condition was deemed serious and he was sent for immediate treatment (after four hours) at Nonthawej hospital. The Foreign Ministry said his heart stopped beating and he could not be resuscitated. He was pronounced dead at 2:15 a.m. on Aug. 8.

An autopsy performed at Siriraj Hospital in Bangkok found that von Hohenlohe had died because organs in his body had failed from an infection in the bloodstream related to a lung infection, and ketone buildup from diabetes, the ministry said in a statement.

A buildup of ketone acids — produced in the liver when insulin levels fall due to diabetes — can lead to a coma.

The ministry said Thai officials have informed the Swiss Embassy in Bangkok, which represents Liechtenstein, about its investigation.

Last month the Italian newspaper La Repubblica quoted von Hohenlohe's brother as saying that Kiko had changed his visa to stay an extra day in Thailand.

The newspaper and other Italian news reports said Ira von Fuerstenberg visited her son in prison on Aug. 4 and was the last family member to see him alive. She found him depressed and humiliated by his imprisonment but physically well.

It also reported that the family had paid bail of US$6,000 (€4,667) and then a second payment of €5,000 (US$6,430), without securing his release.

A family friend, Prince Carlo Giovannelli, said von Hohenlohe had gone to Thailand to lose weight, and had followed a strict 15-day program.

Von Fuerstenberg, the daughter of former Fiat chief Giovanni Angelli's sister Clara and Prince Tassilo von Fuerstenberg, appeared in European and American films in the 1960s and 1970s.

---------------------------

Prince's death on August 8, partial details released September 2

as stated.. the more information that comes out slowly, the more suspicions...

as well as...the more details we learn, the greater the doubt regarding medical competency...

and also..courts misdeeds mentioned again...

all in all, the black and blue mark around Thailand's eye grows....

sad...

Edited September 3, 2006 by sriracha john