Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[Neilly]

John

I wish they had of allowed the British to verify the DNA. They didn't. That logically raises doubts.

The fact that they do not appreciate the importance of this to the family, friends, tourists and everyone else I forgot to mention is disturbing to me. If I was in charge I would be very forthright in my approach. Not this charade that's played out.

I thought the families, after speaking with UK investigators, publicly stated something along the lines they are confident in the investigation and in these two being the right people on trial and that there is more evidence that we don't know of and that the social media speculation has been hurtful to them.

Not quite...depends on how much spin you put on "a difficult case to answer"

“From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer,” the Miller family wrote. “The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing. They must respond to these charges, and their arguments must be considered with the same scrutiny as those of the prosecution.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

[Krenjai]

All these photos will likely make a strong case supporting some of Headman's people involved with crime. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that Thai officialdom is dead-set against implicating the Headman's people, so showing these photos is like 'preaching to the choir.' There's essentially nothing, not even DNA evidence, which will sway Thai officials over to the side or reason. Same goes for their echoers; the Gang of 4.

In contrast, people like me, who think the B2 are not guilty, will look objectively at any and all solid evidence which implicates one or both of the B2. If Brit officials, by doing independent DNA testing, corroborate what Thai officials claim about the B2 ('their DNA matches that found on Hannah'), then I will concede the B2 had sex (and probably raped) Hannah - whether while she was living or not. For that they should be punished.

That's just one reason why I'm frustrated with Brit experts: They appear to have done nearly zero investigation, and their Coroner's Office has taken 14 weeks (and an estimated 40k pounds in salaries) to publish NOTHING thus far.They're talking of delaying things further - possibly until October, when the trial is supposed to have wound up. Who knows, they may delay beyond that - to after appeals, if there are appeals. What these delays accomplish, among other things, is; it increases the odds that the B2 will be found guilty (based on false evidence by prosecution) and it perpetuates the ability of the real criminals to stroll around looking for more victims, knowing they're untouchable. ....and it keeps the B2 behind bars.

I'm not expecting the Brit findings to nail the real perps (tho that would be great), but am confident that it will spill the apple cart of the frame-up / cover-up orchestrated by Thai officials. Indeed, that's a big reason why the Brit findings are being delayed. The Brits are probably doing that - due to pressure from top Thai officials.

I think........ ONLY if the Coroner's office compared fresh & new B2-DNA samples with DNA of the repatriated bodies (if that was still possible) the defense may have a chance to get them of the hook, BUT I also believe this has not been done!

Therefore I still believe they will be convicted and will get the death penalty. I also fear the defense may underestimate one fact in this case, despite evidence pointing to other people, despite no DNA on the hoe from David, despite David his wound clearly being a stab wound, despite possible eyewitnesses, despite everything, and that fact is.......... their guilty and conviction was decided long time ago. The judge will convict on matching RTP-DNA.

It needs a miracle to turn this around > I hope I am wrong.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Krenjai

[CRUNCHER]

I do not understand why so many expect so much of the British police. They were here to observe and not to investigate. What the Thai police told the UK police we do not know (nor should we at this stage). Equally the British police cannot put into the public domain anything they have been told in confidence, although they may have told the victims' families in confidence.

It is totally unrealistic to expect the Thai authorities to supply evidence to an overseas jurisdiction ahead of any criminal trial in Thailand. That would be the same in any country. The criminal trial has first call on any evidence.

If the criminal trial was to be held in UK, the Coroner would be required by law to adjourn the inquest until after the trial. The Coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the criminal trial (unless the law has changed recently). What the position is if the criminal trial is overseas I do not know, but common sense suggests it would be the same or similar at least in practice. The most you are going to get is "unlawful killing by persons unknown".

Some people need a reality check on what Britain's role and powers are in this case.

[BritTim]

I do not understand why so many expect so much of the British police. They were here to observe and not to investigate. What the Thai police told the UK police we do not know (nor should we at this stage). Equally the British police cannot put into the public domain anything they have been told in confidence, although they may have told the victims' families in confidence.

It is totally unrealistic to expect the Thai authorities to supply evidence to an overseas jurisdiction ahead of any criminal trial in Thailand. That would be the same in any country. The criminal trial has first call on any evidence.

If the criminal trial was to be held in UK, the Coroner would be required by law to adjourn the inquest until after the trial. The Coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the criminal trial (unless the law has changed recently). What the position is if the criminal trial is overseas I do not know, but common sense suggests it would be the same or similar at least in practice. The most you are going to get is "unlawful killing by persons unknown".

Some people need a reality check on what Britain's role and powers are in this case.

In terms of the inquest verdict you are correct. What will be interesting is the testimony. That will include things like analysis of the wounds, whether they were likely caused by weapons and, if so, what types. It should also include pharmacology test results (were they drugged or intoxicated). If foreign substances were found, the coroner may have requested DNA testing. The coroner will also have requested certain things from the Thai authorities, such as the Thai post mortem reports. While the UK police could not investigate in Thailand, it is likely that they did limited investigation in the UK. If they have relevant information, this should come out at the inquest. All this stuff is interesting, and may provide leads for the defense to follow up on.

I fear, though, that you may be right that the inquest may not hear much evidence ahead of the trial. This is up to coroner discretion. He can choose to hear evidence and then adjourn.

[greenchair]

I do not understand why so many expect so much of the British police. They were here to observe and not to investigate. What the Thai police told the UK police we do not know (nor should we at this stage). Equally the British police cannot put into the public domain anything they have been told in confidence, although they may have told the victims' families in confidence.

It is totally unrealistic to expect the Thai authorities to supply evidence to an overseas jurisdiction ahead of any criminal trial in Thailand. That would be the same in any country. The criminal trial has first call on any evidence.

If the criminal trial was to be held in UK, the Coroner would be required by law to adjourn the inquest until after the trial. The Coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the criminal trial (unless the law has changed recently). What the position is if the criminal trial is overseas I do not know, but common sense suggests it would be the same or similar at least in practice. The most you are going to get is "unlawful killing by persons unknown".

Some people need a reality check on what Britain's role and powers are in this case.[/quote

What rubbish. The coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the court. It is not the coroner duty to make any verdict at all in regard to guilt or not guilt of any persons. The coroner would postpone investigation until after court by law more rubbish. The inquest is delayed now because the coroner is seeking more evidence. The brit police cannot share any information they may or may not have simply because of the Thai death penalty. The brit cops may well have dna of b2 or dna of mon they would not share because death policy.

The coroner is completely independent and impartial to all parties. No court would have the power or even the wish to stop a coroner from presenting their findings that may exonerate or incriminate, but ensure evidence is accurate.

[CRUNCHER]

I do not understand why so many expect so much of the British police. They were here to observe and not to investigate. What the Thai police told the UK police we do not know (nor should we at this stage). Equally the British police cannot put into the public domain anything they have been told in confidence, although they may have told the victims' families in confidence.

It is totally unrealistic to expect the Thai authorities to supply evidence to an overseas jurisdiction ahead of any criminal trial in Thailand. That would be the same in any country. The criminal trial has first call on any evidence.

If the criminal trial was to be held in UK, the Coroner would be required by law to adjourn the inquest until after the trial. The Coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the criminal trial (unless the law has changed recently). What the position is if the criminal trial is overseas I do not know, but common sense suggests it would be the same or similar at least in practice. The most you are going to get is "unlawful killing by persons unknown".

Some people need a reality check on what Britain's role and powers are in this case.[/quote

What rubbish. The coroner cannot return a verdict inconsistent with the court. It is not the coroner duty to make any verdict at all in regard to guilt or not guilt of any persons. The coroner would postpone investigation until after court by law more rubbish. The inquest is delayed now because the coroner is seeking more evidence. The brit police cannot share any information they may or may not have simply because of the Thai death penalty. The brit cops may well have dna of b2 or dna of mon they would not share because death policy.

The coroner is completely independent and impartial to all parties. No court would have the power or even the wish to stop a coroner from presenting their findings that may exonerate or incriminate, but ensure evidence is accurate.

Sorry you are wrong (as I said unless the law has changed recently). If everything was in UK, the Crown Prosecution would inform the coroner that there was a trial pending and there would be no hearing at all except for identification.

The reason is fairly obvious. Suppose for example the coroner returned a verdict of suicide (although perverse) that would effectively scuttle any criminal prosecution for murder. Of course it does not apply to this case, but the principle is there.

How would this British police get DNA from B2, or anyone else in Thailand for that matter? Like I say some people need a reality check.

In reality the corner only does an investigation through coroners officers, who are police officers. He can, of course, direct enquiries, but in the end most of it is down to the police.

I have a lot of experience of homicide investigation and coroners' inquests and I can tell you that you are wrong. The only caveat I would include is that I am not sure of the position where the criminal trial is outside UK. I never dealt with a case like that.

It is just possible that the coroner would rely on a PM done in UK and return a simple verdict of unlawful killing by persons unknown. I doubt it though.

[boomerangutang]

In Thailand, the police, the prosecution, even the judge are all on the public payroll, are they not?

In the UK, the 'experts' sent to KT, and the Coroner are also on the public payroll.

Indeed, the PM's from each country are paid by taxpayers. They're ALL SUPPOSEDLY WORKING FOR TAXPAYERS, the general public.

Added to that, they should all be working for the best interests of the general public, and one of those interests is to find, prosecute and jail criminals.

We already know Thai officials are inept at crime investigations, are very subjective, and are quite possibly being paid handsomely by outsiders to skew evidence - toward an agenda-driven result.

However, we harbor hopes that Brit experts involved with this case are adept and seeking to serve the general public.

Ideally, all officials looking at this case would be working as a team - to solve it, and get very dangerous people out of the public domain. From what 'Cruncher' described, the Brit coroner seems to acting independently of others. I can fathom that he's limited in the scope of what he can look for and deduce, but shouldn't he be interested in safeguarding future potential victims? If he just says something like "the murder weapons were a blunt object and possibly a blade" ....then that doesn't further the investigation nor keep vile people off the streets. But again, perhaps he doesn't give a hoot about what's right or wrong. Perhaps he just does his job in a clinical way, much like the lab techies who type the DNA.

In sum: we've got all these salaried people, many of whom are professionals, being paid by the general public to do respective jobs. They should coordinate their efforts and serve the public who pays their salaries. If not, they're in dereliction of duties ....or their myopically defined duties are too restrictive, and their job descriptions should be amended so PEOPLE WORK TOGETHER FOR THE PUBLIC WELL-BEING..

[CRUNCHER]

In Thailand, the police, the prosecution, even the judge are all on the public payroll, are they not?

In the UK, the 'experts' sent to KT, and the Coroner are also on the public payroll.

Indeed, the PM's from each country are paid by taxpayers. They're ALL SUPPOSEDLY WORKING FOR TAXPAYERS, the general public.

Added to that, they should all be working for the best interests of the general public, and one of those interests is to find, prosecute and jail criminals.

We already know Thai officials are inept at crime investigations, are very subjective, and are quite possibly being paid handsomely by outsiders to skew evidence - toward an agenda-driven result.

However, we harbor hopes that Brit experts involved with this case are adept and seeking to serve the general public.

Ideally, all officials looking at this case would be working as a team - to solve it, and get very dangerous people out of the public domain. From what 'Cruncher' described, the Brit coroner seems to acting independently of others. I can fathom that he's limited in the scope of what he can look for and deduce, but shouldn't he be interested in safeguarding future potential victims? If he just says something like "the murder weapons were a blunt object and possibly a blade" ....then that doesn't further the investigation nor keep vile people off the streets. But again, perhaps he doesn't give a hoot about what's right or wrong. Perhaps he just does his job in a clinical way, much like the lab techies who type the DNA.

In sum: we've got all these salaried people, many of whom are professionals, being paid by the general public to do respective jobs. They should coordinate their efforts and serve the public who pays their salaries. If not, they're in dereliction of duties ....or their myopically defined duties are too restrictive, and their job descriptions should be amended so PEOPLE WORK TOGETHER FOR THE PUBLIC WELL-BEING..

Your frustration is easy to see and I sympathize with a lot of what you say. The fact is though the coroner has to work within the powers given to him by law and follow accepted rules, guidelines and protocols. He can't just do his own thing. There might well be a lot of legal technicalities that I do not know about.

Where more than one jurisdiction is involved there are always problems and this case is no exception. As an example if the murder occurred in UK the coroner actually has the power to commit a suspect for trial for murder or manslaughter. (That power may have gone now - I am not sure.) But this does tend to show the coroners powers are reduced when the murder occurred overseas.

As I said, I have not come across a case like this and I am not sure how this will pan out, but my best guess is the the inquest will be adjourned until after the trial. We shall soon know.

[berybert]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

[CRUNCHER]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

My guess is not much. He will still want to see what transpires at the trial. Also, after the trial he will be more likely to get information from the Thai authorities. As far as I know Thailand does not hold inquests, but if it did and the positions were reversed UK would not send much info ahead of the criminal trial.

Another thought. I believe there are in fact 2 inquests. It will be interesting to see if both coroners take the same approach.

[greenchair]

I read the discription of the coroner duty. It says it is not his place to decide on guiLt or innocence of individuals. It said he only present the facts of cause of death and injuries. All the rest is up to the police courts or family if a civil suit is wanted.

[thailandchilli]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

My guess is not much. He will still want to see what transpires at the trial. Also, after the trial he will be more likely to get information from the Thai authorities. As far as I know Thailand does not hold inquests, but if it did and the positions were reversed UK would not send much info ahead of the criminal trial.

Another thought. I believe there are in fact 2 inquests. It will be interesting to see if both coroners take the same approach.

Yes I would guess there are 2 inquests, we have heard nothing yet about the date of Davids? Here's a nice little piece on an inquest outcome in the UK from a suicide in Thailand under suspicious circumstances. I wonder if we will have this inquest also take statements from Davids and Hannahs friends, most people including me think this will happen? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-28807790

Edited January 5, 2015 by thailandchilli

[BritTim]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

My guess is not much. He will still want to see what transpires at the trial. Also, after the trial he will be more likely to get information from the Thai authorities. As far as I know Thailand does not hold inquests, but if it did and the positions were reversed UK would not send much info ahead of the criminal trial.

Another thought. I believe there are in fact 2 inquests. It will be interesting to see if both coroners take the same approach.

Yes I would guess there are 2 inquests, we have heard nothing yet about the date of Davids? Here's a nice little piece on an inquest outcome in the UK from a suicide in Thailand under suspicious circumstances. I wonder if we will have this inquest also take statements from Davids and Hannahs friends, most people including me think this will happen? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-28807790

we have heard nothing yet about the date of Davids?

January 8. Someone (I think greenchair) emailed to ask.

[greenchair]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

My guess is not much. He will still want to see what transpires at the trial. Also, after the trial he will be more likely to get information from the Thai authorities. As far as I know Thailand does not hold inquests, but if it did and the positions were reversed UK would not send much info ahead of the criminal trial.

Another thought. I believe there are in fact 2 inquests. It will be interesting to see if both coroners take the same approach.

So if that's true. Where does the court and the police or even the accused get the scientific reports that they need to conduct a trial. You are telling me that. All dna evidence, all injury reports, and toxoligy reports are withheld from interested parties. So guilty men are going free because the coroner withheld evidence. Innocent men are going to prison because the coroner withheld evidence. Where pray tell me are the courts supposed to get their scientific evidence. Or are convictions only based on verbal evidence? ????

[greenchair]

Unmistakable IMO with the 0.19-0.24 in above video

Nomsod Style.jpg

It's all a bit much at the moment . Need a rest .

Let's not forget what this is all about.

[englishoak]

How does the fact the case has been put back affect the British inquest or Coroners report ?

Lets not forget the inquest/report was due to be on 5th of Jan or there abouts. This was at a time when the trail was set for February.

My guess is not much. He will still want to see what transpires at the trial. Also, after the trial he will be more likely to get information from the Thai authorities. As far as I know Thailand does not hold inquests, but if it did and the positions were reversed UK would not send much info ahead of the criminal trial.

Another thought. I believe there are in fact 2 inquests. It will be interesting to see if both coroners take the same approach.

So if that's true. Where does the court and the police or even the accused get the scientific reports that they need to conduct a trial. You are telling me that. All dna evidence, all injury reports, and toxoligy reports are withheld from interested parties. So guilty men are going free because the coroner withheld evidence. Innocent men are going to prison because the coroner withheld evidence. Where pray tell me are the courts supposed to get their scientific evidence. Or are convictions only based on verbal evidence? ????

Indeed, and I cannot see there being a postponement until October this year, families need partial closure of some sort a coroners reports gives trail or no.

[BritTim]

So if that's true. Where does the court and the police or even the accused get the scientific reports that they need to conduct a trial. You are telling me that. All dna evidence, all injury reports, and toxoligy reports are withheld from interested parties. So guilty men are going free because the coroner withheld evidence. Innocent men are going to prison because the coroner withheld evidence. Where pray tell me are the courts supposed to get their scientific evidence. Or are convictions only based on verbal evidence? ????

It is not actually the job of the coroner to collect evidence for any criminal trials. That is the job of the police, and the lawyers for the prosecution and defense. Of course, the coroner will request some of the same information.

With a case like the Koh Tao murders, the RTP and lawyers in Thailand have the responsibility to collect relevant evidence for the criminal case. As part of this, requests can be made to foreign authorities for help, usually acted upon. We know, for instance, that the RTP requested copies of the reports from the autopsies carried out by the UK Home Office pathologist. Presumably, this is supposed to provide further weight to the autopsies carried out in Bangkok. (Any suspicious mind suggesting they just wanted to know what the UK knows, may be a conspiracy theorist, or not.) Formal requests were also made for the UK police to interview potential witnesses in the UK. It is unknown whether the UK acted on the requests. The Met has stated that they will furnish no information that might be used in a case involving a potential death sentence. Thus, I assume no evidence collected in the UK will be available to the RTP, prosecutor or defense team.

[greenchair]

Let's see

[greenchair]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

[boomerangutang]

The Met has stated that they will furnish no information that might be used in a case involving a potential death sentence. Thus, I assume no evidence collected in the UK will be available to the RTP, prosecutor or defense team.

That's a crucial factor. Thanks for pointing that out.

[thailandchilli]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

Well if you could mix and match clothing then I would say its Muang having changed into a darker t shirt from the one he had on when on the motorbike as hes the only one with shorts on?? Sent you a pm also

[catsanddogs]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

Well if you could mix and match clothing then I would say its Muang having changed into a darker t shirt from the one he had on when on the motorbike as hes the only one with shorts on?? Sent you a pm also

Yes is does resemble Maung Maung. Shape of the head and hair seem to fit. Like you say - different tee shirt.

[catsanddogs]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

Well if you could mix and match clothing then I would say its Muang having changed into a darker t shirt from the one he had on when on the motorbike as hes the only one with shorts on?? Sent you a pm also

Yes is does resemble Maung Maung. Shape of the head and hair seem to fit. Like you say - different tee shirt.

What is the correct time on the still of the man? The time on the top left or top right of the pic?

[greenchair]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

Well if you could mix and match clothing then I would say its Muang having changed into a darker t shirt from the one he had on when on the motorbike as hes the only one with shorts on?? Sent you a pm also

Yes is does resemble Maung Maung. Shape of the head and hair seem to fit. Like you say - different tee shirt.

What is the correct time on the still of the man? The time on the top left or top right of the pic?

Yes I wonder about the time too.

[berybert]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Don't know how to make a picture.

Who is this?

Sorry. Really want to know who is this

Well if you could mix and match clothing then I would say its Muang having changed into a darker t shirt from the one he had on when on the motorbike as hes the only one with shorts on?? Sent you a pm also

Muang is the guy on the back of the bike ? If so how on earth can you say he has a different t-shirt on ?

Trousers to shorts ok. but the t-shirt 100% the same.

If you think the guy in the middle is Muang then you need glasses.

Edited January 5, 2015 by berybert

[greenchair]

Can someone please confirm for us the names of the boys on the bike.?

[catsanddogs]

Can someone please confirm for us the names of the boys on the bike.?

The only still with names for the three men (dated Oct 2nd) I can find on the web is from a man (not FB) who we are not allowed to mention. It says that the middle man is called Win and shows another still of him buying fags and names him as Win again. But this is wrong unless Maung also goes by the name of Win. The middle man on the bike is actually Maung Maung - the one at the back is Win (the more delicate looking one) and the driver is Saw.

The picture you posted asking who the man in the black tee shirt was looks like Maung to me as I said. Maung (in the middle on the bike) is wearing dark shorts similar to that pic of the man in the street but not the same tee shirt. The black tee shirt that Win is wearing on the bike is not the same as the one the man is wearing in the still you posted. Hope that all makes sense!

[greenchair]

Zaw, muang ,wei (win)

Man in shirt looks like Muang.

Not the same shirt as Wei on the back bike.

Muang not wearing the same shirt as on the middle bike.

Which time is correct left or right?

[boomerangutang]

What am I missing, re; the two photos? The man walking alone, with b&w t-shirt and dark shorts - has a time of before 1 am. The crime didn't take place until around 4 am (is that about right?). That's a 3 hour time span. Also, people don't change clothes when out cruising at night - or at least v. rarely. Maybe a poster can show the significance of trying to match the single guy and the 3 guys on a motorbike. Even if the man in black is Nomsod or Mon, it doesn't seem to carry much significance, with a time lag of approx. 3 hours.

On the other hand, if it's shown that anyone connected to AC bar intentionally trashed CCTV footage (on that night), can that person be slapped with charges of tampering with evidence? In the US, that would be the case. In Thailand, I don't know, as anything is allowable,(except a farang dropping a spent cig butt on a Bangkok sidewalk, then it's a Bt.2,000 fine). Harboring a fugitive and lying to police re; a crime case, is legally allowable in Thailand - depending on who's behind the deception.

[thailandchilli]

Here's the complete set of this guy, I took them and cropped the photos from the video of the pancake seller when he was interviewed on Thai TV. They must have some significance otherwise the RTP would not have released them. But what that is?