Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[dcutman]

All this talk about the found phone. I think the phone is a gnat's ass from moot. At most, it might show that one of the B stole it from the scene of the crime. What's the penalty for stealing a mobile phone? Let's not forget, Thai officials originally claimed the phone was Hannah's. Then, when social media showed Hannah's phone was in police custody the day of the murders, Thai officials changed and claimed it was David's phone. Yet, David's phone was found at the crime scene, was it not? What the 'found phone' most likely shows is police planted it. They may have also planted the sunglasses purportedly stolen from David or the crime scene. Again, what's the penalty for stealing a pair of sunglasses? And how do cops assert the sunglasses were David's? DNA, dandruff, bits of hair, or a friend of David's assertion?

In sum, the phone and sunglasses supposedly found or planted behind the B's dwelling are ...red herrings. They detract from what investigators should be scrutinizing: the people and clues connecting the Headman's people to the crime.

Also: I don't know much about mobile phones, but shouldn't there be some sort of record of what numbers are calling which other numbers and the locations? If some of the headman's people were involved with the crime, it would be likely that a flurry of phone calls transpired from 4:30 am onward, on Monday. pre- and just after dawn are not common times for people to be making phone calls. Finding records of such phone calls, would be a big step towards implicating guilt. For example: We know it's likely the crime took place between 4:30 and 5 am on Monday. If there were a flurry of mobile phone calls between 4:30 and 8 am, let's say connecting Nomsod, Mon, the Headman, Nomsod's mother, speedboat operator(s), car drivers/taxis, girlfriends, other friends, people who do laundry/clean-up, etc ......that would be indicative of serious concerns (among the callers). Thus far, we've heard absolutely zero about phone calls from authorities. It's as if mobile phones and support technology doesn't exist on KT.

As usual, you rather dismiss actual physical evidence in favour of your own fantasies; not only that, you blatantly insist on peddling things that have been debunked, repeatedly, for example Miller had two phones, I'm certain you know this, yet you still say "Yet, David's phone was found at the crime scene, was it not? What the 'found phone' most likely shows is police planted it."

You also know that "Thai officials originally claimed the phone was Hannah's." is not true, it was one official during one press conference that mistook the ownership of the phone while addressing the press, you don't care about that, you just want to peddle innuendo and misleading information.

The funny thing is you accused me of wanting to destroy evidence against your boogiemen, and here what do you do? desperately trying to sweep under the rug actual evidence that doesn't match what you would really, really want to believe. You have serious projection issues.

Not just one official but the head of the RTP Somyot Pumphanmuang stated that it was Hannah's phone that was found. Yes this was recanted as a mistake, so many mistakes in this case it seems

Also while its possible David had 2 phones, I've never seen a confirmation report on that, as far as I know its purely speculation

Well he must have had 3 phones because very early on the police said they found an Iphone in Davids luggage, along with Chris Wares bloodied shorts.

Police said they also found a pair of Chris’s blood-stained trousers in David’s luggage as well as an iPhone with long blonde hairs snagged on it. http://1clicknews.com/thailand-murders-police-question-two-brothers-who-were-friends-with-one-of-the-victims/

[boomerangutang]

The more we talk about phones, the more it becomes apparent that the phone purportedly found at the B's place is a plant by cops. The only time there was mention (by RTP supporters) of David having a 2nd phone, after cops were caught lead-footed saying it wasn't actually Hannah's phone they found (social media pics nixed that ruse), but it was David's. RTP and their supporters aren't entirely stupid, and they're quick to adjust their stories when caught in a lie.

What will they say when it's pointed out that, in the reenactment, it's shown that the sharp end of the hoe was used to inflict blade wounds on David? Oh, mai pen rai, they'll be able to explain that away, no problem. Not a chance of an ice cube surviving in Hades will any of them ever be able to say, "Oh sorry, we made a mistake. Nomsod and Mon should be re-instated as prime suspects, as they were during the first stages of the investigation." About as likely if, the B2's charges are dropped in October, that Thai officialdom will announce, "Oh, so sorry for the inconvenience of being locked up for a year. Here, please accept Bt.120,000 each (Bt.10k for each month), for our bungled attempt to frame you two on false charges. Chok dee."

[AleG]

Really, it's neither here nor there whose phone it was.

The fact is there was a phone of one of the victims. It is possible that the phone was given to the b2. By the same person who conveniently gave the police the guitar and their clothes. The person who produced these evidence has never been revealed. These objects were not part of the original items found at the scene. Apparently they were given to the police by a concerned citizen. Stands to reason, that if said person has clothes and guitar. Then also could have phone of victim. Could it be he was a thief, that stole clothes and phone.

Of course it matters whose phone it was. Hannah's phone was handed in to police and David's phone was found at the crime scene. If the phone behind the Burmese accommodation is one of these two, it means that it was put there by police.

Or it means that what the actual witnesses said is true, that they were handed the phone by one of the two Burmese suspects and discarded there, funny how that possibility seems to be completely unfathomable.

Let's see, in one hand we have witness testimony that matches with other facts, on the other hand we have rank speculation... hmmm, tough choice.

[AleG]

David Miller according to reports went back to his room for the night and then told Chris Ware he was going out again to buy some cigarettes. So why would he on his way out again bring his sunglasses. There's cctv of him with what looks like the sunglasses hanging on the collar of his t shirt and then theres more shots taken of him without the sunglasses. Not sure what time these were taken but I would guess the one with sunglasses is before he went back to his room and the one without is when he went out again.

We know the RTP did a full search of David's and Chris Ware's room after the murders. Its possible they could have picked up any number of his personal items including the sunglasses if they were there and the phone. Afterall they packed Davids trousers into Chris's bag!

"There's cctv of him with what looks like the sunglasses hanging on the collar of his t shirt and then theres more shots taken of him without the sunglasses"

And you know the thing in his shirt pocket on the second image is not the sunglasses because...?

"Afterall they packed Davids trousers into Chris's bag!"

Still making things up about the not-bloody trousers that were not put into Chris Ware's luggage?

[AleG]

The more we talk about phones, the more it becomes apparent that the phone purportedly found at the B's place is a plant by cops. The only time there was mention (by RTP supporters) of David having a 2nd phone, after cops were caught lead-footed saying it wasn't actually Hannah's phone they found (social media pics nixed that ruse), but it was David's. RTP and their supporters aren't entirely stupid, and they're quick to adjust their stories when caught in a lie.

What will they say when it's pointed out that, in the reenactment, it's shown that the sharp end of the hoe was used to inflict blade wounds on David? Oh, mai pen rai, they'll be able to explain that away, no problem. Not a chance of an ice cube surviving in Hades will any of them ever be able to say, "Oh sorry, we made a mistake. Nomsod and Mon should be re-instated as prime suspects, as they were during the first stages of the investigation." About as likely if, the B2's charges are dropped in October, that Thai officialdom will announce, "Oh, so sorry for the inconvenience of being locked up for a year. Here, please accept Bt.120,000 each (Bt.10k for each month), for our bungled attempt to frame you two on false charges. Chok dee."

"The more we talk about phones, the more it becomes apparent that the phone purportedly found at the B's place is a plant by cops."

A statement completely uncontaminated by logic or intellectual honesty, well done.

"RTP and their supporters aren't entirely stupid, and they're quick to adjust their stories when caught in a lie."

Says the person that needs to constantly invent cockamamie scenarios to rationalize and support a narrative that otherwise lacks any actual facts or sound logic to support it.

"Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others."

[IslandLover]

seahorse, on 12 Feb 2015 - 06:32, said:

greenchair, on 12 Feb 2015 - 05:55, said:

Really, it's neither here nor there whose phone it was.

The fact is there was a phone of one of the victims. It is possible that the phone was given to the b2. By the same person who conveniently gave the police the guitar and their clothes. The person who produced these evidence has never been revealed. These objects were not part of the original items found at the scene. Apparently they were given to the police by a concerned citizen. Stands to reason, that if said person has clothes and guitar. Then also could have phone of victim. Could it be he was a thief, that stole clothes and phone.

Of course it matters whose phone it was. Hannah's phone was handed in to police and David's phone was found at the crime scene. If the phone behind the Burmese accommodation is one of these two, it means that it was put there by police.

Well said

[IslandLover]

thailandchilli, on 12 Feb 2015 - 09:28, said:thailandchilli, on 12 Feb 2015 - 09:28, said:

David Miller according to reports went back to his room for the night and then told Chris Ware he was going out again to buy some cigarettes. So why would he on his way out again bring his sunglasses. There's cctv of him with what looks like the sunglasses hanging on the collar of his t shirt and then theres more shots taken of him without the sunglasses. Not sure what time these were taken but I would guess the one with sunglasses is before he went back to his room and the one without is when he went out again.

We know the RTP did a full search of David's and Chris Ware's room after the murders. Its possible they could have picked up any number of his personal items including the sunglasses if they were there and the phone. Afterall they packed Davids trousers into Chris's bag!

The image on the left showing David with what appears to be sunglasses carries a timestamp of 1:57 am. This is allegedly the last known footage of David on CCTV. The video is here.

http://news.sky.com/story/1338593/thailand-cctv-of-british-man-killed-on-beach

Regarding the "bloodstained" trousers (there is an actual photo but I don't have it), I thought it was the other way round, that Chris Ware's trousers had been found in David's luggage, which were later revealed to have been planted by the RTP. Then they decided that the trousers were David's after all and the bloodstains were not blood at all but some kind of chemical substance. To add credence to the RTP's original story of finding Chris Ware's bloodstained trousers in David Miller's luggage, witnesses had claimed that Chris was seen wearing them on the night of the murders, which was untrue as he was wearing shorts, not long trousers.

Edited February 12, 2015 by IslandLover

[loonodingle]

Really, it's neither here nor there whose phone it was.

The fact is there was a phone of one of the victims. It is possible that the phone was given to the b2. By the same person who conveniently gave the police the guitar and their clothes. The person who produced these evidence has never been revealed. These objects were not part of the original items found at the scene. Apparently they were given to the police by a concerned citizen. Stands to reason, that if said person has clothes and guitar. Then also could have phone of victim. Could it be he was a thief, that stole clothes and phone.

The Phone is currently being Verified at the moment.

[Maestro]

Here's one of the alleged confessions for what its worth, how long did the RTP have them in the safe house to extract this piece of sh!t from him with no lawyer present and apparently under threat of torture?

thailandchilli, please give a source for that picture. I cant find any on the web.

[Eirene]

Maistro you can view this here at .56. I imagine that this would be one source of the original. http://tinyurl.com/mcfqhsu You may have to disable safe mode at top of page.

edit to add: greenchair - The image you were looking for of the jeans on a chair is in this video.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Eirene

[rockingrobin]

Really, it's neither here nor there whose phone it was.

The fact is there was a phone of one of the victims. It is possible that the phone was given to the b2. By the same person who conveniently gave the police the guitar and their clothes. The person who produced these evidence has never been revealed. These objects were not part of the original items found at the scene. Apparently they were given to the police by a concerned citizen. Stands to reason, that if said person has clothes and guitar. Then also could have phone of victim. Could it be he was a thief, that stole clothes and phone.

The Phone is currently being Verified at the moment.

Loonodingle I dont understand, are you saying the phones owner is uknown at present

[loonodingle]

Really, it's neither here nor there whose phone it was.

The fact is there was a phone of one of the victims. It is possible that the phone was given to the b2. By the same person who conveniently gave the police the guitar and their clothes. The person who produced these evidence has never been revealed. These objects were not part of the original items found at the scene. Apparently they were given to the police by a concerned citizen. Stands to reason, that if said person has clothes and guitar. Then also could have phone of victim. Could it be he was a thief, that stole clothes and phone.

The Phone is currently being Verified at the moment.

Loonodingle I dont understand, are you saying the phones owner is uknown at present

Correct

[greenchair]

Maistro you can view this here at .56. I imagine that this would be one source of the original. http://tinyurl.com/mcfqhsu You may have to disable safe mode at top of page.

edit to add: greenchair - The image you were looking for of the jeans on a chair is in this video.

Can't seem to open this video.

[thailandchilli]

David Miller according to reports went back to his room for the night and then told Chris Ware he was going out again to buy some cigarettes. So why would he on his way out again bring his sunglasses. There's cctv of him with what looks like the sunglasses hanging on the collar of his t shirt and then theres more shots taken of him without the sunglasses. Not sure what time these were taken but I would guess the one with sunglasses is before he went back to his room and the one without is when he went out again.

We know the RTP did a full search of David's and Chris Ware's room after the murders. Its possible they could have picked up any number of his personal items including the sunglasses if they were there and the phone. Afterall they packed Davids trousers into Chris's bag!

"There's cctv of him with what looks like the sunglasses hanging on the collar of his t shirt and then theres more shots taken of him without the sunglasses"

And you know the thing in his shirt pocket on the second image is not the sunglasses because...?

"Afterall they packed Davids trousers into Chris's bag!"

Still making things up about the not-bloody trousers that were not put into Chris Ware's luggage?

No I don't know but apparently you do and because..?

I don't make things up, I discuss but you attempt to discredit by anyway you can AleG and this is a prime example. Whether the trousers were put into Chris bag or Davids bag is irrelevant. At the time the police believed them to be Chris's trousers and also believed them to have blood on them.

[Eirene]

Try this one - http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=th&u=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DCG0q1MAYp44&prev=search

Can't seem to open this video.

[thailandchilli]

Here's one of the alleged confessions for what its worth, how long did the RTP have them in the safe house to extract this piece of sh!t from him with no lawyer present and apparently under threat of torture?

thailandchilli, please give a source for that picture. I cant find any on the web.

Its on a facebook page we cannot link to in the photo section, just scroll down and you'll find it

[thailandchilli]

Here's one of the alleged confessions for what its worth, how long did the RTP have them in the safe house to extract this piece of sh!t from him with no lawyer present and apparently under threat of torture?

thailandchilli, please give a source for that picture. I cant find any on the web.

Its on a facebook page we cannot link to in the photo section, just scroll down and you'll find it

Original source from this video

[boomerangutang]

Some perspective on why this case has been weirdly handled:

Up until recently, when Thai officials were investigating a crime, they would make claims (of who, what, where, why) and the general public would generally go along with perhaps a few grumblers and detractors. The detractors would always be outside of the uniformed cadres, because it's rule #1, when you're a member of the military or police force in Thailand: you never counter what your superiors assert. If you do, you're out of a job, or worse.

The RTP got blindsided in the KT double murder/rape case, by social media. Social media allows input (pics, witness, opinions) using pseudonyms, so it makes it more difficult for authorities to threaten defamation lawsuits and other sorts of intimidation to hush detractors up.

It's also a reflection of the education system in Thailand, where students know not to question anything teachers put forth. Similarly, Thai citizens grow up knowing to not openly question what higher-ups declare. With rare exceptions, those higher ups are older men with scowls etched in to their faces, only smiling when they see money or whiskey.

RTP will be handling crime cases differently, largely as a result of the KT crime bumblings. They won't be announcing much right after a crime. If they do claim anything, it will be vague, because they now know; tens of thousands of social media netzens can readily spot their lies and obfuscations and post counter claims in minutes. In earlier days, perhaps a few hundred folks might read newspaper reports and one or two might get a letter published in 'Letters' column of a newspaper 4 days later.

In sum: things are more exposed now, and the general public can readily comment and/or add pics and witness accounts which are seen by hundreds of thousands. It's a whole new dichotomy for Thai officials (some of whom still use non-electric Thai typewriters to type up police reports, at about 9 words/minute).

[FangFerang]

There are so many things being swept under the rug that the room is uninhabitable.

[boomerangutang]

So the way it works, for you, is to create illogical arguments, ignore actual evidence and build up fictional scenarios that fit your pet narrative. Well, gee, I didn't see that coming.

If you are going to create a conspiracy theory at least make it believable and not so stupid as suggesting that the police was given Witheridge's phone by her friends, an Iphone 5 with pink trim, had the press take photos of it and then try to "plant" it to frame the suspects, and by planting the Iphone 5 with pink trim I mean planting a smashed black Iphone 4, (as Miller's had), yes, brilliant planning, nobody would notice; and of course later on they returned Witheridge's phone, intact, to the family. So, according to boomerangutang the RTP has created this vast air-tight conspiracy to cover-up the crimes based on this stupid, easily spotted shenanigans.

It makes perfect sense, provided one is willing to abandon any pretense of caring for logic and facts.

Blah blah blah. AleG, see my post, above, to find out why the police made compounded mistakes in their attempts to frame the Burmese. Thai officials have been used to getting their way. Whenever something bad (like a bombing attemp) happened to Thaksin or Chaleum, they would immediately declare what, who, why it happened. ...and the Thai general public would have to accept that BECAUSE IT WAS CLAIMED BY HIGHER-UPS. If the public didn't accept it, well, mai pen rai, there would be some new headlines every day, and Thais would forget about what happened a few days ago.

In fact, that's why the judge put the trial off for so long. He and Thai officialdom had been hoping this concern/fixation with the KT crime would blow over. Usually, interest in a Thai crime blows over in days or, at most, weeks. But interest in this crime hasn't. It's annoying Thai officialdom to the 10th degree, because as long as the general public keep scrutinizing the botched investigation, Thai police credence gets dragged through the mud.

Thai cops are already up to their necks in mud, and they can't even find the shovels to dig themselves out. If the PM and top cops could wave a magic wand to have all us social media nuts quit pointing out their mistakes, they could love to use it. The only thing which will begin to clean up their image at this time, is to go back to square one, appoint professionals to investigate, and go over all the evidence with an objective goal of finding and punishing the real culprits. Anything less than that, and they'll continue sinking in the black mud of their own making.

[angiolo]

keep this topic alive ,July is a long way away

[berybert]

Boomer will you stop arguing please. The RTP have told us the phone was found behind the guys place. That should be proof enough for anyone.

Who needs finger prints or DNA. You have the word of the RTP. Ask no more.

[stephen terry]

Boomer will you stop arguing please. The RTP have told us the phone was found behind the guys place. That should be proof enough for anyone.

Who needs finger prints or DNA. You have the word of the RTP. Ask no more.

And the irony of that is that the judge will accept it, because why would they charge innocent scapegoats? But the defence won't.

[minikev]

I believe this is an effort to have people watching this circus lose interest.

Yeah people like you would think that.......if you had half a brain in your head and didn't spend so much time trolling you would realize It is quite the opposite.

What Thailand are doing via the court is sending a message saying :we are being a fair as we can: and when we prove these 2 are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt it will shut people like you up

How can it be fair when in your sentence you only state that they will be proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Surely in a fair case it could go either way. Or don't you understand there is a chance they may not have done this crime?

[loonodingle]

I believe this is an effort to have people watching this circus lose interest.

Yeah people like you would think that.......if you had half a brain in your head and didn't spend so much time trolling you would realize It is quite the opposite.

What Thailand are doing via the court is sending a message saying :we are being a fair as we can: and when we prove these 2 are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt it will shut people like you up

How can it be fair when in your sentence you only state that they will be proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Surely in a fair case it could go either way. Or don't you understand there is a chance they may not have done this crime?

The defence team are working very hard to disprove the arguments submitted by the RTP. Including getting verification of key evidence. In the UK there is lawyers working away diligently on all parts of the case that they can have a bearing on.

There is hope... despite attempts to railroad the case.

You will remember the prosecutor sent the file back many times for additional information. This could indicate some had to be fabricated after the event.

The donations page was shut down yesterday by the website owners who decided to change the rules. They said it can't be used to raise any funds for any defence expenses. No notice given and they just shut it down. Attempts are being made to find a new host.

Stinks a bit that. .... makes you wonder who complained...... They wouldn't have done it randomly. ..

[stephen terry]

I believe this is an effort to have people watching this circus lose interest.

Yeah people like you would think that.......if you had half a brain in your head and didn't spend so much time trolling you would realize It is quite the opposite.

What Thailand are doing via the court is sending a message saying :we are being a fair as we can: and when we prove these 2 are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt it will shut people like you up

How can it be fair when in your sentence you only state that they will be proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Surely in a fair case it could go either way. Or don't you understand there is a chance they may not have done this crime?

The defence team are working very hard to disprove the arguments submitted by the RTP. Including getting verification of key evidence. In the UK there is lawyers working away diligently on all parts of the case that they can have a bearing on.

There is hope... despite attempts to railroad the case.

You will remember the prosecutor sent the file back many times for additional information. This could indicate some had to be fabricated after the event.

The donations page was shut down yesterday by the website owners who decided to change the rules. They said it can't be used to raise any funds for any defence expenses. No notice given and they just shut it down. Attempts are being made to find a new host.

Stinks a bit that. .... makes you wonder who complained...... They wouldn't have done it randomly. ..

Thanks for the update. Very informative, and yet another barrier placed in front of the defence. Seems like the Thai authorities are determined to prevent a fair trial or seek justice, this time by putting pressure on the donations website.

What are the Myanmar authorities doing/saying? I thought bail was being raised, or has that sunk? Or are the B2 safer in jail than outside?

[greenchair]

To the left of this passed out girl, is a man with no shirt on. Does anyone have a picture of stingray man with no shirt .

We can compare chest size.

And perform nipple analysis on him.

[AleG]

The defence team are working very hard to disprove the arguments submitted by the RTP. Including getting verification of key evidence. In the UK there is lawyers working away diligently on all parts of the case that they can have a bearing on.

There is hope... despite attempts to railroad the case.

You will remember the prosecutor sent the file back many times for additional information. This could indicate some had to be fabricated after the event.

The donations page was shut down yesterday by the website owners who decided to change the rules. They said it can't be used to raise any funds for any defence expenses. No notice given and they just shut it down. Attempts are being made to find a new host.

Stinks a bit that. .... makes you wonder who complained...... They wouldn't have done it randomly. ..

Thanks for the update. Very informative, and yet another barrier placed in front of the defence. Seems like the Thai authorities are determined to prevent a fair trial or seek justice, this time by putting pressure on the donations website.

What are the Myanmar authorities doing/saying? I thought bail was being raised, or has that sunk? Or are the B2 safer in jail than outside?

Well, let's see, vast government conspiracy at work or the defense team blatantly disregarded the rules of the service they were using:

"YouCaring does not permit fundraising campaigns for legal defense, litigation, bail bonds or other legal matters."

Clearly the second.

[loonodingle]

The defence team are working very hard to disprove the arguments submitted by the RTP. Including getting verification of key evidence. In the UK there is lawyers working away diligently on all parts of the case that they can have a bearing on.

There is hope... despite attempts to railroad the case.

You will remember the prosecutor sent the file back many times for additional information. This could indicate some had to be fabricated after the event.

The donations page was shut down yesterday by the website owners who decided to change the rules. They said it can't be used to raise any funds for any defence expenses. No notice given and they just shut it down. Attempts are being made to find a new host.

Stinks a bit that. .... makes you wonder who complained...... They wouldn't have done it randomly. ..

Thanks for the update. Very informative, and yet another barrier placed in front of the defence. Seems like the Thai authorities are determined to prevent a fair trial or seek justice, this time by putting pressure on the donations website.

What are the Myanmar authorities doing/saying? I thought bail was being raised, or has that sunk? Or are the B2 safer in jail than outside?

Well, let's see, vast government conspiracy at work or the defense team blatantly disregarded the rules of the service they were using:

"YouCaring does not permit fundraising campaigns for legal defense, litigation, bail bonds or other legal matters."

Clearly the second.

Actually AleG that is the NEW RULES..... not the old rules.

They updated them.

[thailandchilli]

The defence team are working very hard to disprove the arguments submitted by the RTP. Including getting verification of key evidence. In the UK there is lawyers working away diligently on all parts of the case that they can have a bearing on.

There is hope... despite attempts to railroad the case.

You will remember the prosecutor sent the file back many times for additional information. This could indicate some had to be fabricated after the event.

The donations page was shut down yesterday by the website owners who decided to change the rules. They said it can't be used to raise any funds for any defence expenses. No notice given and they just shut it down. Attempts are being made to find a new host.

Stinks a bit that. .... makes you wonder who complained...... They wouldn't have done it randomly. ..

Thanks for the update. Very informative, and yet another barrier placed in front of the defence. Seems like the Thai authorities are determined to prevent a fair trial or seek justice, this time by putting pressure on the donations website.

What are the Myanmar authorities doing/saying? I thought bail was being raised, or has that sunk? Or are the B2 safer in jail than outside?

Well, let's see, vast government conspiracy at work or the defense team blatantly disregarded the rules of the service they were using:

"YouCaring does not permit fundraising campaigns for legal defense, litigation, bail bonds or other legal matters."

Clearly the second.

Clearly the second AleG? Really? Your so sure of that aren't you despite it being a new policy that was placed after they had already joined the site.

Here's a cached page of the same webpage taken on 2nd Dec 2014 https://web.archive.org/web/20141202025150/http://www.youcaring.com/how-it-works

But I'll let you carry on with your conspiracy

Edited February 13, 2015 by thailandchilli