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Secure, long-term financial support for Thai family....!? HELP!


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Dear all:

I need urgent advise from some of the smart people on this forum. Never thought it would come to this, as i am highly critical of Thaines and all money related matters here.

However, tragic personal circumstances changed my mind in respect to a family i have learned to respect over the years and i need technical advise how to provide for a Thai family with a secure, very long-term quarterly "pension".

It has become very difficult setting up accounts / portfolios / foundations etc. in Europe, also I am looking into this.

Scenario:

???? Ca. 90K. Baht every quarter, to mother (30) and if something happens to her, to her then grown 2 kids. For this case I have have about 12 Mio budgeted, a couple of Mio to buy a house to live rent-free and some extra cash planned. Possibly factor in an inflation factor...? I am a bit lost at the moment with the world collapsing on me and I appreciate very much any guidance, even just getting me on the right path. Thank you all & Happy New Year. MS>

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I feel for you -- setting up anything which has to survive long after you've gone is a nightmare for the financially inept, but still avaricious folks. I am NOT a financial advisor -- which is what you need -- but I know from personal experience that some forms of life insurance will pay out profits/bonuses every so-often. Some can be made into paid-up policies after a few years normal contributions. Take the policy out on the life of the beneficiary and everything will stop after the final payout when they die. You can arrange for that to be no more than will pay for funeral expenses.

Buying any asset (gold, stocks, etc) will not survive you any longer than it takes them to work out how to sell it all, and leave themselves impoverished again. :( Buying life insurance for yourself is extremely dangerous. It's a nightmare and a minefield all rolled into one facepalm.gif

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I feel for you -- setting up anything which has to survive long after you've gone is a nightmare for the financially inept, but still avaricious folks. I am NOT a financial advisor -- which is what you need -- but I know from personal experience that some forms of life insurance will pay out profits/bonuses every so-often. Some can be made into paid-up policies after a few years normal contributions. Take the policy out on the life of the beneficiary and everything will stop after the final payout when they die. You can arrange for that to be no more than will pay for funeral expenses.

Buying any asset (gold, stocks, etc) will not survive you any longer than it takes them to work out how to sell it all, and leave themselves impoverished again. sad.png Buying life insurance for yourself is extremely dangerous. It's a nightmare and a minefield all rolled into one facepalm.gif

You are so right. Definitely not easy. Got good bankers working on it, but bad timing during holidays. There must be a way via a foundation (Stiftung in German) or such, but now mostly taxed and costly. Let's hope for some great minds on TV. OMG. so much to do, so little time. THX> MS.

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I'm sure I am not the only person who'd be interested in what you come up with. Many folks are in a similar situation. Hope you find a solution that suits your specific situation, but everyone would be well-advised to do a little bit of long-term planning to avoid the last minute fix -- which is never the best solution.

Different countries have different schemes, so a lot will depend on what country you have a financial footing in.

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i would suggest, one third - 4 million THB - in a Thai Bank, fixed account in your name but with recurring monthly payment ( lets say, 30,000 THB) to another Thai account being held by one of the family members. A valid Thai will must be made, that will make sure in case of your death your account will be transferred into the mother's name.

The second third, another 4 million - I would invest in Thai Gold bullion - not costume jewelry (!!) as the share of the making costs are way too high per Thai Baht Gold weight ( 800 Baht !!) - and rent a safe in a reputable bank in your AND her name, keeping but all the keys to yourself ! Put all the gold into the safe, give one key to a notary public in your country (take two witnesses and a last will nailing this deal) along with an envelope with enough money that will enable the notary public to fly over for a 3 week prime (prime meaning give him at least 6000 Euros to highball) holiday in Thailand (after your demise) and once he's over there, hand the keys to Mom. Make sure the share their adresses and phone numbers. Instead of a notary, you could also ask a close friend or relative whom you fully trust , to do you this favour.

The last third - 4 million THB - I would invest in rice fields. The more rai rice fields the family owns, the less they have to worry about inflation. It is said that around 200 rai of rice fields will enable a family to stop working and make a living by the rice fields alone. Given your 4 Million Thai Baht, you can buy around 70 rai of rice fields. The price strongly depending on the location and the yields and if it can be planted once only or two times every other year. 70 rai is a nice startover for every family and will yield a steady yearly income. Of course the rice fields should be somewhere near the home of the family, so they have at least easy access to it.

If the family many years later decides to sell everything, and blow it in the wind - which I doubt they will - then that is something you will not experience any more, so whadda f..k ! They can and will not sell in your lifetime, you made sure of that. If the family decides to have many many children in the near future, and spread the wealth among each of the kids with each inheritance coming up, some 100 years later all of them will end up being poor again.

It's easy and it's the chinese families that have been disciplined and smart enough never to part again from wealth once achieved, but this is something the Thai/Lao families are not clever enough at

NEVER . . and I am begging you . . . never make up a contract with a "life" or however they call the cheaters out there - insurances !!!!!!!

The only one earning is the insurance, don't believe the crap they sell and tell.

By the way you can pm me in german if you like some brainstorming around this matter

Nicely put, but you miss the most fundamental problem. As soon as the investor dies, the family will be able to undo all that good work. The intention here - if I understand the OP correctly - is to set something up which is cast in stone and they can not undo to get their hands on capitol when the investor dies. Rice fields can be sold - for example - and the money would not last more than a couple of months ;)

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i would suggest, one third - 4 million THB - in a Thai Bank, fixed account in your name but with recurring monthly payment ( lets say, 30,000 THB) to another Thai account being held by one of the family members. A valid Thai will must be made, that will make sure in case of your death your account will be transferred into the mother's name.

The second third, another 4 million - I would invest in Thai Gold bullion - not costume jewelry (!!) as the share of the making costs are way too high per Thai Baht Gold weight ( 800 Baht !!) - and rent a safe in a reputable bank in your AND her name, keeping but all the keys to yourself ! Put all the gold into the safe, give one key to a notary public in your country (take two witnesses and a last will nailing this deal) along with an envelope with enough money that will enable the notary public to fly over for a 3 week prime (prime meaning give him at least 6000 Euros to highball) holiday in Thailand (after your demise) and once he's over there, hand the keys to Mom. Make sure the share their adresses and phone numbers. Instead of a notary, you could also ask a close friend or relative whom you fully trust , to do you this favour.

The last third - 4 million THB - I would invest in rice fields. The more rai rice fields the family owns, the less they have to worry about inflation. It is said that around 200 rai of rice fields will enable a family to stop working and make a living by the rice fields alone. Given your 4 Million Thai Baht, you can buy around 70 rai of rice fields. The price strongly depending on the location and the yields and if it can be planted once only or two times every other year. 70 rai is a nice startover for every family and will yield a steady yearly income. Of course the rice fields should be somewhere near the home of the family, so they have at least easy access to it.

If the family many years later decides to sell everything, and blow it in the wind - which I doubt they will - then that is something you will not experience any more, so whadda f..k ! They can and will not sell in your lifetime, you made sure of that. If the family decides to have many many children in the near future, and spread the wealth among each of the kids with each inheritance coming up, some 100 years later all of them will end up being poor again.

It's easy and it's the chinese families that have been disciplined and smart enough never to part again from wealth once achieved, but this is something the Thai/Lao families are not clever enough at

NEVER . . and I am begging you . . . never make up a contract with a "life" or however they call the cheaters out there - insurances !!!!!!!

The only one earning is the insurance, don't believe the crap they sell and tell.

By the way you can pm me in german if you like some brainstorming around this matter

Nicely put, but you miss the most fundamental problem. As soon as the investor dies, the family will be able to undo all that good work. The intention here - if I understand the OP correctly - is to set something up which is cast in stone and they can not undo to get their hands on capitol when the investor dies. Rice fields can be sold - for example - and the money would not last more than a couple of months wink.png

yes that is a point. But as I said, why would the family risk selling all, and mainly, for WHAT to buy with THAT money ? Cars? Tractors for what land? Simply consumer goods ? Sell rice fields to buy gold, when they know gold is awaiting them ?? I'd rather say that they would see the bullions in the safe and the rice fields a fantastic investment, for their own benefit and securing their future. Nor would they sell rice fields within the life of the OP if they are what he states - a respectable family.

All these farang constructs that involve lawyers who have a hand on any assets, will only bring the vultures about. Not the family vultures, no, I am referring to the ones in law.assets and insurance businesses

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I feel for you -- setting up anything which has to survive long after you've gone is a nightmare for the financially inept, but still avaricious folks. I am NOT a financial advisor -- which is what you need -- but I know from personal experience that some forms of life insurance will pay out profits/bonuses every so-often. Some can be made into paid-up policies after a few years normal contributions. Take the policy out on the life of the beneficiary and everything will stop after the final payout when they die. You can arrange for that to be no more than will pay for funeral expenses.

Buying any asset (gold, stocks, etc) will not survive you any longer than it takes them to work out how to sell it all, and leave themselves impoverished again. sad.png Buying life insurance for yourself is extremely dangerous. It's a nightmare and a minefield all rolled into one facepalm.gif

You are so right. Definitely not easy. Got good bankers working on it, but bad timing during holidays. There must be a way via a foundation (Stiftung in German) or such, but now mostly taxed and costly. Let's hope for some great minds on TV. OMG. so much to do, so little time. THX> MS.

"Stiftungen" im Thai Recht ?? Water is flowing uphill in Thailand, yes, we all know. The best would be a construct that leaves the family without a satang, at the very outcome. Why oh Why would you trust lawyers, "asset managers", Stiftungsmanager" and all this insurance busines scum ahead of and don't trust the family you mentioned you are carrying a high respect for ?

Not to speak of the many hands that will need to get greased and the Tea that goes over the platters.

Nobody in his right mind would give away the proceedings into the hands out-of-the-family people . . . . . onlt to loose a fair amount, if not al, to the vultures that will come hacking away your project

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It doesn't need a fri....g banker to do the job.

Anyone with a good education and the right mindset can project a solution for the OP. Maybe the OP has no friends he can trust, or he would have brainstormed this a long time ago, nor does he seem to have insight into Thai Law, the way things are done here and so forth.

The Forum is a good way to receive a multitude of No's , Go's and "whaddaf"s . . I am lookin ahead of the next few posters and their opinions. At least there's a few old dogs here good at sniffing the bottom of the pit

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I am in the same situation, I don't have any heirs, just my older sister who in my last will is asked to forfeit all my assets to my Thai family ( i am not married).

I have to trust in my sister.

I wouldn't want a lump sum under the custody of any officials at home and most of all, not in Thailand. The ongoing corruption . . it takes a piece of toilet paper with a tea money bought stamp to set the family up . . . .

keep in mind where you are . . .play safe . . . . wink.png

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Thank you all. Some good points. Some very dramatic health news, unexpected as you might realize, have led to this post. Yes, I have friends, family in Europe that are trusted, but I am looking for a long-term, recurring payment solution. Fully agreed on insurance remarks and Thai remarks. Not an easy situation. Yes, my brother can manage it, but what if he dies next year? This gets a bit complicated. I don't think the recipient would waste away the money. Trained and educated her well and her family seems reasonable. We will see what comes. I am confident TV will brig up some great ideas. A friend in fact has a very long-term, started 30 yrs. ago with a 1 time payment life/pension type insurance. Gets 3'500 Euros every month, is now in his mid seventies and has received way more than he paid in. But these days are over. Thanks to all. Can't write to everybody right now, my apologies, not my best days.....MS>

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Thank you all. Some good points. Some very dramatic health news, unexpected as you might realize, have led to this post. Yes, I have friends, family in Europe that are trusted, but I am looking for a long-term, recurring payment solution. Fully agreed on insurance remarks and Thai remarks. Not an easy situation. Yes, my brother can manage it, but what if he dies next year? This gets a bit complicated. I don't think the recipient would waste away the money. Trained and educated her well and her family seems reasonable. We will see what comes. I am confident TV will brig up some great ideas. A friend in fact has a very long-term, started 30 yrs. ago with a 1 time payment life/pension type insurance. Gets 3'500 Euros every month, is now in his mid seventies and has received way more than he paid in. But these days are over. Thanks to all. Can't write to everybody right now, my apologies, not my best days.....MS>

then why would you worry ? Why create such a mess for the beneficiaries of your assets ?

Transfer it to whoever you had planned initially, and I wish you a safe and quick way out.

Why would you bother with what happens with money in your afterlife ? Or, better, in no afterlive ? What if you

will be gone forever.

At a certain point in my life, I vowed, I do not want to die being rich. I want to have it spent all.

Just avoid sitting at a german plaza with a bottle of ALDI red wine.

Maybe THAT would give you the giggles, so near to your own demise.

I understand, you are in critical circumstances and you want these issues solved.

But make sure you have spent all the SCHOTTER before you BITE THE GRASS ( german, not english)

Edited by crazygreg44
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Why not take out an immediate annuity in your home country and have the monthly payment made to the woman's bank account.

The problem here is exchange rate risk. Currency pairs can easily fluctuate by as much 30% in a single year making the income stream unreliable.

The ideal solution would be a THB annuity. However, I don't believe any suitable product is available in the Thai market.

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Rice fields could be your annuity solution in Thailand if you make sure the ownership can be joint for all parties concerned - with no single ownership partner being able to sell it out from under the others

Similarly a joint-ownership commercial property - maybe shops - to rent out. Stay away from renting to private individuals - they can be much harder to deal with.

Talk to the family you want to support/protect -- see what they think of joint ownership and how they react to the responsibility.

Keep us posted wink.png

Edit to add --- This idea has the huge advantage of not relying on a single individual to "manage" the situation. They must agree everything together. How they split the property income is pretty much out of your control, but you can write out what you want to happen and they risk your displeasure if they don't comply. Maybe even write it into the joint ownership papers .

No currency hassles, no "institutions" other than a local lawyer to set it up. I'd be very careful about the lawyer and get a second opinion on everything. Setting up a cash cow attracts all the worst kinds of people and brings out the bad in everyone.

Hassles? Choosing the right paddies, properties which will continue to produce an income. Writing some form of property maintenance obligation into the partnership agreement so that the rice-fields are not laid waste and the shops allowed to fall down. Maintenance money to come out before family get anything.

No solution is perfect, but I think this might work. You could add some details like setting up the partnership bank account/deposit account so that the money is not frittered away on smaller stuff as it comes in. Worse still, that they can not spend the big lump of rental income cash at the end of every month/quarter on a new car!

Edited by jpinx
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Banks and Assurance Companies and will happily sell you a policy. Yes, they are available to foreigners, you just need to go talk to them and shop around. Try Thai Life Assurance Association for starters.

Oh, and btw, you will need about $250K to invest if you want a stable income of about $750/month, less tax of course. That's about 3.6% interest. You need a professional financial advisor not some desk top bloggers advice. Best of luck to you.

Edited by RBOP
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yes that is a point. But as I said, why would the family risk selling all, and mainly, for WHAT to buy with THAT money ? Cars? Tractors for what land? Simply consumer goods ? Sell rice fields to buy gold, when they know gold is awaiting them ?? I'd rather say that they would see the bullions in the safe and the rice fields a fantastic investment, for their own benefit and securing their future. Nor would they sell rice fields within the life of the OP if they are what he states - a respectable family.

Why would the family risk selling all??? In a word..FACE. They will buy the most expensive cars, build luxury houses, hold huge gambling parties/events, ostentatious merit-making events at the temple, Buy gold necklaces for everyone in the family, buy huge areas of (non-productive) farmland with shiny tractors, and not to mention giving out huge loans to almost anyone who wants one.

This the very definition of "respectable" Bullion in the safe cannot be seen by the neighbours.

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Maybe purchasing an annuity would be the way to go, in US/UK or someplace relatively stable.

About the fluctuations in value of the Baht, maybe less risk there than the other options ?

Not an expert, just brainstorming but trying to keep it simple.

You are looking at payout of $2700USD per quarter or ~$10,000USD per year, right ? And have 12,000,000 Baht to invest, or ~$350,000USD ?

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Check out various mutual funds at local Thai banks. They are easy to buy and depending on the fund will pay out dividends regularly. You can invest in domestic shares, foreign shares, bonds, gold and alot of other stuff and thereby spread the risk.

You can buy directly in your name and will it to the family if you want.

The bank will handle all management of your funds (for a yearly fee), and the dividends are paid directly to your (or your family's) bank account.

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contact a financial advisor and set up a trust fund in your home country with trustees - can be family or friends, two or three is best - with instructions to forward monies from the fund at regular intervals. job done.

And what precisely would the tax implications be of doing so? My best guess is that all income would be taxed at income tax rates under the junta's proposed Gift Tax - up to 35% tax.

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Sad to read your OP; I’ll give my thoughts for your inspiration.

You may need to set up a ”trust” or ”foundation” – your German Stiftung – supposedly outside Thailand, as I saw in an earlier tread talks about a similar subject that is not possible in Thailand. If you are from Germany you may be able to do it there; but please do check it with a Thai lawyer or some local specialist, and not only rely on what have been written in a TV-forum-post.

There might be rules in European countries about a family trust and there may be some tax to take into consideration – which may be different in Germany from my homeland. Setting up a trust in Luxemburg (or similar country) may be a possibility, but “private banking” can have higher fees and no 3rd-country (Thai family) tax-benefits compared to other European Union countries.

You may be able to write a foundation with a monthly or quarterly fee that can be indexed, and allowance for special payout like education, sickness, starting a company, buying a home etc. – just like one for example will write in a Last Will about funds in deposit for a minor.

Often a trust’s funds are placed in bonds or mixed bonds/dividend-paying-equity. Equivalent to 12 million THB should be able to pay dividend/interest in the range of 30,000 THB monthly, depending of local tax rules and taxation.

At the moment you can count around 2.5 percent average outcome, so if you take 2 million off up-front for a house, the monthly dividend will be little less or the initial capital slowly “eaten up”. Placing some of the funds in dividend paying equity/stocks you may have a partly long-term security for inflation (stocks have over long-term been a good investment instrument, ranging over bonds). Very secure bonds with a good interest are the unique Danish “Realkredit obligationer”, where all house-owners guarantee for each other, called “the musketeer method” – they can be bought through a Germen banker/equity-trader.

Wish you all the best. smile.png

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There is no short term solution but here's an idea, not knowing anything more about the situation than what you've said in yr post.

Get one of the members of the family to apply for a job and start making an income, and start being self -sufficient and responsible for the financial affairs of themselves. Get them to first pay off existing debts e.g. Motorcycle or vehicle loans, and after those debts are retired set aside some of their income in a short term savings account that they agree not to touch for 3 - 5 years.

Have other family members see this work and encourage others to do the same and if it catches on the family might start to see its wealth accumulate through the dedicated efforts of a few of them.

Never ever bail out or loan money to your Thai in laws ! Instead teach them self sufficiency and fiscal responsibility, a skill most Thais are never taught.

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Sorry to hear about your circumstances. So if I understand your situation correctly, you want to provide for this mother of 2 in the long run (when you are not around anymore) with a monthly payment of 30k because you worry she couldn't manage a lump sum payment? If that is the case there are 3 options that come to my mind.

1) as you mention a trust/Stiftung outside Thailand to be set up who makes that monthly payment + manages the assets obviously with the target to preserve the money.

2) you have a friend or a person you trust who will manage the money on behalf of the beneficiary and who makes sure she will get 30k each month (similar to trust/Stiftung without the legal set up)

3) you invest the money in assets that cannot be sold easily and provide regular returns. I.e. you could buy property in her name or even in the children's name. For example you could buy a student apartment building in her name which she manages, provides her with good income in the long run and some more or less easy work.

The trust or Stiftung seems to be the best option for what you are looking for. The only caveat I have is that 12mn baht is rather small, so suggest you speak to one of the many companies who offer those services and find out what options you have.

Last but not least, my view is also that everyone has some responsibility for themselves. So with some basic instruction, this mother should be able to manage a 12mn lumpsum payment and be able to live of it's interest and provide for her children without blowing it all.

hope this helps and wish you all the best.

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There is no short term solution but here's an idea, not knowing anything more about the situation than what you've said in yr post.

Get one of the members of the family to apply for a job and start making an income, and start being self -sufficient and responsible for the financial affairs of themselves. Get them to first pay off existing debts e.g. Motorcycle or vehicle loans, and after those debts are retired set aside some of their income in a short term savings account that they agree not to touch for 3 - 5 years.

Have other family members see this work and encourage others to do the same and if it catches on the family might start to see its wealth accumulate through the dedicated efforts of a few of them.

Never ever bail out or loan money to your Thai in laws ! Instead teach them self sufficiency and fiscal responsibility, a skill most Thais are never taught.

Hi Dibbler

Thank you. I am in general as negative as you are after 20 yrs. in Thai and.. But there is always en exception to the rule. This now 35 yr. girl, with most basic education, has worked hard all her life and when I got her a job, it was as much her stamina and will to succeed that made her to one of the hardest working people I have ever met and my very hard training. She runs successful and 24/7/365 a combination of 3 businesses and has earned my respect the hard way.

I am more than happy to secure her and her kids future and let her slow down a bit, so she does not end like myself. She deserves it, but I will cut out some parasite friends, who are already counting "their inheritance". In fact one of them asked me today how much he can expect? Lovely....His planned 250K$ will now go to that family and some poor institutions, too :-). Things are very dramatic for me and I just hope I have enough time left. Funny, how little money means when you get the bad news. At least it helps me to be active til the last day, be a bit distracted and put a few projects up and running and make a few people happy.

Happy New Year! MS>

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