Some AirAsia victims found belted in seats

[NanLaew]

More trouble ahead for Air Asia?

The BBC reports the carrier was NOT Licensed to fly that route on SUNDAYS. This could now present all manner of difficulties when the airline attempts to lodge an Insurance claim.

The BBC also misquoted (or didn't independently verify) an earlier bit of misrepresentation that AirAsia had previously been banned from flying to Europe. They quietly deleted that piece of rubbish.

The BBC's recent trend to engage with various 'eyewitnesses' and 'experts' on dodgy balloon-faced smartphone 'interviews' is really disappointing too. They had a live stream going with such an idiot during the Sydney coffee shop siege and the guy was offering up all sorts of totally unqualified guff on what armaments the local SWAT team were displaying. Truly cringeworthy.

[MobileContent]

Flights are now suspended for Surabaya - Singapore and SIngapore - Surabaya.

I think Allianz will still pay as AirAsia has been a good client for the past 13 years but the rescue mission might have to be paid by Air Asia and possible lawsuits can be filed against AirAsia Indonesia.

I still believe the Indonesians might be overreacting a bit as they clearly give permission to fly.

[chrisinth]

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Just being reported on Twitter that AirAsia has had their route permit frozen/revoked for Surabaya - Singapore
"Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS
Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501
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TunasKelapa ‏@ArvinTunas
@GerryS On what ground?
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Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS 21m21 minutes ago
@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."


http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

One really has to wonder about the timing of this action. It looks like an attempt to blacken the name of AirAsia Unfortunately, the Indonesian government has a history of similar action, and placing themselves in an adversarial position to the airline involved. It's almost 8 years to the day since the crash of Adam Air 574, after which Indonesia instigated a highly acrimonious relationship with the airline throughout the investigation.

Air Asia apparently did not have permit to fly that route on Sundays. Break a rule and face consequences, especially if a crash.

Not according to AirAsia website. QZ8501 operates on Monday, Friday and Sunday. They also have 3 other flights listed for Sundays.

I really doubt that an airline can fly an 'extra' flight outwith their permitted slots with the airport and local regulatory authorities being unaware of the 'legality' of that flight until after the fact. There's no denying that LCC operators would incur losses outwith their budgeted cost/flight if an aircraft was delayed due to a technical issue on a previous leg. Maybe they had a weather or technical delayed flight that departed late and this increased a daily flight count? If that happened, maybe an administrative oversight but really doubt that it would invoke any loss of insurance coverage and totally unrelated to the plane crashing.

Were there not reports earlier in this tragedy that the flight left two hours before their scheduled departure?

Could this have been seen as 'unscheduled' or the flight plan update overlooked?

Authorities shifting blame?

[F430murci]

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Just being reported on Twitter that AirAsia has had their route permit frozen/revoked for Surabaya - Singapore

"Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS

Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501

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TunasKelapa ‏@ArvinTunas

@GerryS On what ground?

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Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS 21m21 minutes ago

@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."

http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

One really has to wonder about the timing of this action. It looks like an attempt to blacken the name of AirAsia Unfortunately, the Indonesian government has a history of similar action, and placing themselves in an adversarial position to the airline involved. It's almost 8 years to the day since the crash of Adam Air 574, after which Indonesia instigated a highly acrimonious relationship with the airline throughout the investigation.

Air Asia apparently did not have permit to fly that route on Sundays. Break a rule and face consequences, especially if a crash.

Not according to AirAsia website. QZ8501 operates on Monday, Friday and Sunday. They also have 3 other flights listed for Sundays.

I really doubt that an airline can fly an 'extra' flight outwith their permitted slots with the airport and local regulatory authorities being unaware of the 'legality' of that flight until after the fact. There's no denying that LCC operators would incur losses outwith their budgeted cost/flight if an aircraft was delayed due to a technical issue on a previous leg. Maybe they had a weather or technical delayed flight that departed late and this increased a daily flight count? If that happened, maybe an administrative oversight but really doubt that it would invoke any loss of insurance coverage and totally unrelated to the plane crashing.

Were there not reports earlier in this tragedy that the flight left two hours before their scheduled departure?

Could this have been seen as 'unscheduled' or the flight plan update overlooked?

Authorities shifting blame?

I don't think it is blame issue. Just pointing something out. Apparently, the license right were different during winter months at least according to this press release:

Google translation:

By virtue of a DGCA No. AU.008 / 30/6 / DRJU.DAU - 2014 dated October 24, 2014 regarding permission Foreign Flight Period Winter 2014/2015 , Surabaya - Singapore route given to Indonesia AirAsia is Monday, Tuesday , Thursday and Saturday .

http://bisniskeuangan.kompas.com/read/2015/01/02/205840526/Izin.Rute.AirAsia.Surabaya-Singapura.Dibekukan

Edited January 3, 2015 by F430murci

[Credo]

If they didn't have permission to fly, then how did they get permission to take off and why did they ask for permission to deviate from a flight path that they didn't have permission to have.

[tigermonkey]

Flights are now suspended for Surabaya - Singapore and SIngapore - Surabaya.

I think Allianz will still pay as AirAsia has been a good client for the past 13 years but the rescue mission might have to be paid by Air Asia and possible lawsuits can be filed against AirAsia Indonesia.

I still believe the Indonesians might be overreacting a bit as they clearly give permission to fly.

Strange that you should say that Indonesia might try to get AirAsia to pay the bill. That's exactly the path that Indonesia followed with the Adam Air 574 crash - first smear the airline involved with innuendo and rumors, nothing official mind you, and then demand that the airline pay the entire cost of the 'black box' search and retrieval.

[Mosha]

Just being reported on Twitter that AirAsia has had their route permit frozen/revoked for Surabaya - Singapore

"Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS

Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501

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TunasKelapa ‏@ArvinTunas

@GerryS On what ground?

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Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS 21m21 minutes ago

@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."

http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

One really has to wonder about the timing of this action. It looks like an attempt to blacken the name of AirAsia Unfortunately, the Indonesian government has a history of similar action, and placing themselves in an adversarial position to the airline involved. It's almost 8 years to the day since the crash of Adam Air 574, after which Indonesia instigated a highly acrimonious relationship with the airline throughout the investigation.

Air Asia apparently did not have permit to fly that route on Sundays. Break a rule and face consequences, especially if a crash.

What they failed to do and apparently it seems to be standard practice is not get a proper weather report.

http://jakarta.coconuts.co/2015/01/02/minister-transportation-furious-after-finding-airasia-did-not-follow-proper-pre-flight

[casualbiker]

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Just being reported on Twitter that AirAsia has had their route permit frozen/revoked for Surabaya - Singapore

"Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS

Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501

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TunasKelapa ‏@ArvinTunas

@GerryS On what ground?

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Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS 21m21 minutes ago

@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."

http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

One really has to wonder about the timing of this action. It looks like an attempt to blacken the name of AirAsia Unfortunately, the Indonesian government has a history of similar action, and placing themselves in an adversarial position to the airline involved. It's almost 8 years to the day since the crash of Adam Air 574, after which Indonesia instigated a highly acrimonious relationship with the airline throughout the investigation.

Air Asia apparently did not have permit to fly that route on Sundays. Break a rule and face consequences, especially if a crash.

I doubt any flight permit has any effect on weather. Nature follows its own "rules." It appears the pilot chose to risk his passengers by flying into dangerous weather conditions and belatedly decided to return. That flight should never have departed because of weather conditions. Perhaps during winter months that route should be banned entirely. There will be higher tickets prices from more fuel usage but less deaths.

You are trying to blame the pilot for this. Yet there were 5-6 other planes in the vicinity hence the indonesia air traffic control took to long to allocate an alternative flight lane!! The blame game is a bit unfair when all the information is not available (nor may it ever be)

[ExPratt]

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If they didn't have permission to fly, then how did they get permission to take off and why did they ask for permission to deviate from a flight path that they didn't have permission to have.

Because , and this may surprise you . No one checks anything in Asia. Why would you want to make a fuss when you can let the plane take off and have a cup of coffee, sorry Kopi, and a Nasi Lamak. Dont make waves

[NeverSure]

If they didn't have permission to fly, then how did they get permission to take off and why did they ask for permission to deviate from a flight path that they didn't have permission to have.

You get permission to taxi to the runway from the airport's ground control. You get permission to take off from the airport's tower. Prior to that you file a flight plan with air traffic control (ATC) often called "Center." If you do what's called "pop up" on Center, they fit you in the best they can without warning. I suppose if they couldn't fit you in they'd demand you turn back but I've never heard of it.

It is mandatory to file that flight plan with Center if you are going to fly above a certain altitude, which rules out small civilian aircraft unless the conditions are IFR (instrument flight rules) meaning weather including visibility which will put you on instrument only flying. Then everyone must file in advance.

Of course before asking to taxi you have also contacted Weather and asked them what's showing and reported on your planned route. All of these different contacts are on different radio frequencies so you change frequencies to talk to each of them in order.

IF he didn't have clearance to fly the route and did it anyway, he was a "pop up." If he had permission to fly the route but failed to file a flight plan, we was a pop up. If he filed a flight plan and had clearance to fly the route he was legal. I don't know which.

It isn't the job of ground or tower to know if he has a flight plan and clearance to fly the route. There is a massive rule the the captain is the law of his airplane and NO one can override him in the moment. He can get consequences later for his actions, but in the moment he is KING.

[tigermonkey]

Just being reported on Twitter that AirAsia has had their route permit frozen/revoked for Surabaya - Singapore

"Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS

Just heard Indo Air Asia route permit for Surabaya to Singapore has been frozen/revoked by Indo govt. Ouch! #QZ8501

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TunasKelapa ‏@ArvinTunas

@GerryS On what ground?

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Gerry Soejatman ‏@GerryS 21m21 minutes ago

@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."

http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

One really has to wonder about the timing of this action. It looks like an attempt to blacken the name of AirAsia Unfortunately, the Indonesian government has a history of similar action, and placing themselves in an adversarial position to the airline involved. It's almost 8 years to the day since the crash of Adam Air 574, after which Indonesia instigated a highly acrimonious relationship with the airline throughout the investigation.

Air Asia apparently did not have permit to fly that route on Sundays. Break a rule and face consequences, especially if a crash.

What they failed to do and apparently it seems to be standard practice is not get a proper weather report.

http://jakarta.coconuts.co/2015/01/02/minister-transportation-furious-after-finding-airasia-did-not-follow-proper-pre-flight

They got a proper weather report but did not get the weather briefing as specified by the Indonesian government. A highly experienced pilot would probably rely on the report and not the briefing in any case. However, rules are rules. More of the 'blame game' by the Indonesian government - from the Coconuts report, it appears that the Indo govt is out there looking for mud to throw at AirAsia. These things should be part of the investigation and hence not flaunted in the public domain.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tigermonkey

[NeverSure]

If they didn't have permission to fly, then how did they get permission to take off and why did they ask for permission to deviate from a flight path that they didn't have permission to have.

I forgot to mention that perhaps the most common "pop up" is the private pilot in a small plane who is in good weather, below the altitude requiring a flight plan, and he hits unexpected weather which causes him to have to switch to instrument flying. Now he needs to change to being followed and fit in by Center. He radios Center and pops up on them. This doesn't cause him a problem with authorities.

[SiSePuede419]

I'm surprised that Asians would actually use their seatbelts.

Hell, in Mexico many people are so 'macho' and stupid, they actually cut their seatbelts in their car/taxi off.

Edited January 3, 2015 by SiSePuede419

[mrdome]

Does anybody really believe that an Airbus could take off from an international airport without a flight plan or permission? Let's try and keep it real here.

In most countries - no. In Indonesia/SE Asia - absolutely.

All the mishaps in the past and broken rules that came to light have made this plenty clear.

At least the time change saved at least 10 lives.

[kingstonkid]

If they were not authorized to fly that day then a few questions come to mind.

1. Why were they and was this a Malayasian Airasia decision?

2. Why were they granted take off.

3. Why did the airport allow them to sell tickets, have a boarding place, be at the loading area and load passengers?

4. Why would Singapore allow them to fly into Singapore as a scheduled flight?

I am not sure what this is all about but you have to think that indonesian officials are trying to duck any responsibility and shift it all to Airasia.

I think it will be interesting to hear Tony fernandes response to this.

I just find it hard to believe that an airline can fly out of a major international airport and not have authorization to do so.

[Sirpia]

I dont believe that will be of much comfort to anyone. If the plane breaks up you'll be gone in pretty much seconds and still strapped into your seat

If the plane hits the water in tact , then you'd have to go through a rather uncomfortable few minutes wondering if you will live or die

Not to go too gory, but the latter scenario also allows the possibility of severe non-fatal injuries.

[somchaismith]

Todays weather in the search area.

Look on the left side of the centre of the pic,

find Singapore, then look down at about the

five o'clock position.

cMCIRNegWorld.jpg

Image from...

http://www.cabooltureweather.com/SatPics-MTSat.asp?Units=C

Thank's for the Caboolture weather report, it's quite hot there so fishing will be word the of the day,.over the new year's break.

[ExPratt]

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I dont believe that will be of much comfort to anyone. If the plane breaks up you'll be gone in pretty much seconds and still strapped into your seat

If the plane hits the water in tact , then you'd have to go through a rather uncomfortable few minutes wondering if you will live or die

Not to go too gory, but the latter scenario also allows the possibility of severe non-fatal injuries.

I suppose we can argue about the survival chances of passengers when ditching, The Hudson river miracle comes to mind. Butt that was a plane that was still flying and running out of height on a River, I think we will find that the Air asia plane crashed into the open sea like a Missile , There was no attempted "Landing or Ditching " so to speak. Everyone has their own opinion of course and i would rather go out like a light , that listen to people screaming and crying for a couple of minutes before they die anyway

Edited January 3, 2015 by ExPratt

[khaosai]

@ArvinTunas they said Air Asia flew more than it was permitted to and didnt ask for changes or extra flights."

http://twitrpix.com/c7pmu

If they took off without filing a flight plan and getting permission, I'd say they are screwed. I hope that isn't true.

Based on my experience If you call air traffic control for your departure clearance and there is no flight plan filed then it be will highlighted to the crew who will then have to contact their flight dispatch to get it filed/re filed.

I can't imagine being cleared to cross borders to a major international city with fair paying passengers.

Edited January 3, 2015 by khaosai

[jomcondo]

it goes to show.....always wear your seatbelt folks.

[Sirpia]

it goes to show.....always wear your seatbelt folks.

And ask to see their license and registration.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Sirpia

[MaxYakov]

If they didn't have permission to fly, then how did they get permission to take off and why did they ask for permission to deviate from a flight path that they didn't have permission to have.

They don' have permission to answer.

[notmyself]

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I dont believe that will be of much comfort to anyone. If the plane breaks up you'll be gone in pretty much seconds and still strapped into your seat

If the plane hits the water in tact , then you'd have to go through a rather uncomfortable few minutes wondering if you will live or die

Not to go too gory, but the latter scenario also allows the possibility of severe non-fatal injuries.

I suppose we can argue about the survival chances of passengers when ditching, The Hudson river miracle comes to mind. Butt that was a plane that was still flying and running out of height on a River, I think we will find that the Air asia plane crashed into the open sea like a Missile , There was no attempted "Landing or Ditching " so to speak. Everyone has their own opinion of course and i would rather go out like a light , that listen to people screaming and crying for a couple of minutes before they die anyway

Indeed, landing or rather ditching on a calm river would be nothing like ditching on an open rough sea.

[poweratradio]

Fair to say that they weren't conscious after a controlled and successful sea ditching.

One would also presume that the seats didn't float away from an almost intact fuselage.

Whether it broke up in the air or upon ditching is the next question.

There has been no report of the fuselage being found.

[Sirpia]

Fair to say that they weren't conscious after a controlled and successful sea ditching.

One would also presume that the seats didn't float away from an almost intact fuselage.

Whether it broke up in the air or upon ditching is the next question.

There has been no report of the fuselage being found.

Actually there has been reports.

Just false ones. By officials.

Welcome to South East Asia.

[poweratradio]

Fair to say that they weren't conscious after a controlled and successful sea ditching.

One would also presume that the seats didn't float away from an almost intact fuselage.

Whether it broke up in the air or upon ditching is the next question.

There has been no report of the fuselage being found.

Actually there has been reports.

Just false ones. By officials.

Welcome to South East Asia.

So whats your point?

[Sirpia]

Fair to say that they weren't conscious after a controlled and successful sea ditching.

One would also presume that the seats didn't float away from an almost intact fuselage.

Whether it broke up in the air or upon ditching is the next question.

There has been no report of the fuselage being found.

Actually there has been reports.

Just false ones. By officials.

Welcome to South East Asia.

So whats your point?

I think if you read back those quotes, you just may find it.

[umbanda]

Looks like after the sea landing the crew had the opportunity to open doors and try to evacuate the passengers, but unfortunately the plane broke down and drowned...Doesn't look that was pilots errors. I hope aviation companies will learn from the black boxes what happened and resolve any technical issues. In times of so much new technology, fly 50 years old passengers planes do not make any sense.

[umbanda]

Passengers with life best and an inflatable ramp was found too. Looks like after the sea landing the crew had the opportunity to open doors and try to evacuate the passengers, but unfortunately the plane broke down and drowned...Doesn't look that were pilots errors. I hope aviation companies will learn from the black boxes what happened and resolve any technical issues. In times of so much new technology, fly 50 years old passengers planes do not make any sense.

[ExPratt]

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Passengers with life best and an inflatable ramp was found too. Looks like after the sea landing the crew had the opportunity to open doors and try to evacuate the passengers, but unfortunately the plane broke down and drowned...Doesn't look that were pilots errors. I hope aviation companies will learn from the black boxes what happened and resolve any technical issues. In times of so much new technology, fly 50 years old passengers planes do not make any sense.

You have a link or source for that information ?