French man found hanged in Koh Tao with his hands tied behind his back – foul play suspected

[Anthony5]

The saddest thing here, is that a young bloke has lost his life,.

The next bit is that despite johnthailanjohns pleadings , JT police reputation is in the toilet, so it's obvious that this going to be questioned.

Several simple questions

1) johnthailanjohnd what is your link to RTP?

2) iAre you a forensic specialist?

3) what is your knowledge of Koh Tao?

4) length of stay in Thailand?

These are the openings, as you continually defend any suspicious RTP stuff.

Not suggesting this isn't a suicide, however it is highly suspicious. Your wiki and google stuff is impressive, but iI can't be assed to do all the counter stuff

2) iAre you a forensic specialist?

3) what is your knowledge of Koh Tao?

Nice deflection, not directed at you.

The point is, why should members have to proof their forensic and Koh Tao knowledge to be allowed to post their opinions, why others who have their own different opinions don't need to.

[MJP]

Honestly, how many of these hands tied behind back suicides have we seen in Thailand now?

I really really want to use a whole skip load of foul language.

But people from outside LOS refuse to believe that the place is so damn crooked that the cops brush these off as routine suicides when elsewhere the average 6 year old knows the victim has been murdered.

I know, but in this case, having actually looked, I think this is suicide.

Bloody sad when they go so young.

[sabaitoo]

It should be noted that the first article only mentioned that it was a suicide, however someone downloaded one of the picture and zoomed in on the hands clearly tied behind the persons back...this info was send to CSILA and A.D, later more pictures from the scene were posted on CSILA ...only after this did the articles mentioned that hands tied behind the back....

It was originally solved as a suicide..until social media hit on it.. ( TV was late ;-) )

I shall not go into details of the pictures, only mention that if was in a civilized country, with the clearly visibly indications, this person would have been cut down and CPR/ Resuscitation tried..

To me it does not look like a suicide ( even if all Koh Tao friend may claim so )

While CSILA detectives may say different, the reality is you don't cut down the body until investigators have examined and photographed the scene. There is no reason to to give CPR to a corpse and it was obvious the were dealing with a corpse. In civilized (modern) countries officers are trained to know not to cut down a body but in less developed countries it is more common for an officer to cut down a body and worse cut the rope in an incorrect location damaging the investigation.

What CSILA whatever say do not interest me, definition of a corpse is well defined, any trained professional see what I see on those pictures, also procedures in handling of hangings differ from your imagination, from your statements I concur that you really do not have a clue what you are talking about..so lets just leave it at that... go on defending you interest

Lets not leave it at this because you are stating something that is absolutely wrong and this can easily be verified by doing just a tiny bit of research online or just using your common sense in trying to figure out how hanging victims are photographed hanging in civilized countries if in civilized countries they cut them down to perform CPR.

You are also the one who brought up CSILA and how great it is.

And unless you just happen to think CSILA is such a great thing that you had to mention them numerous times in your post but now say it does not interest you then I will assume it just coincidence that you and the CSILA posters both have a tendency to post BS and state it as fact despite it clearly not being to anyone with knowledge or cares to check the facts.

Generally you would cut them down, especially if there are indicators of O² supply to the red blood cells, that would be colour of skin, an eventual pressure in vains and arteries, body temperature etc...off course the fastening of the rope and the noose is left untouched as forensics is interested in the knots, however as I stated before in a civilized world nobody is being left to hang if there is even a slight possibility to reanimate... For a person to be decleared dead you will need a doctor on the scene, not any flat-fooded copper or any bystander with pretended knowlegde...a layman could declare a person dead if the head is separated from the corpse or obvious signs of rigor mortis has set in, this to my knowlegde the basics in the US, northern European mainland and Scandinavia.

As for CSI LA.. Never mentioned it was great, stop putting words in my mouth..it is a Facebook group and it is usable to spread information ( and rumours, lies, whatever) and keep attention to thing that else would be buried like in the old days...

[MJP]

Another poster provided a link to a research paper, albeit with rather graphic images, so I won't repost.

However, an extract from the conclusion of Precautions Taken to Avoid Abandoning the Act of Hanging and Reducing Pain in Suicidal Hanging Cases, The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, Volume 30, Number 1, March 2009.

In our study it was observed that in 5 (29.4%) of the 17 cases the hands were either limply or tightly fastened together in front or behind the body. At first glance, a hanging body found with their hands tied together would give the impression of a homicide. However, an investigation of the death scene, such as in our first case showed that the victim had tied up his own hands; 1 end of the cable was in 1 palm and the other end was free, showing bite marks on it. In the same case, a piece of paper had been placed against the hanging ligature and the victim had left a suicide note. In the second case, the hands were tied around the thigh and waist to prevent the hands from rising up. In the third case, both hands had been tied behind the body with a simple knot. Also, along with a suicide note, the door had been locked from inside, meaning anybody trying to enter the room would have to break the lock. In the fourth case, there was a suicide note left at the death scene and both hands had been fastened limply behind the back. In the fifth case, beside the presence of a suicide note, the hands had been tied behind the back and a plastic bag had been used to close the mouth. In all 5 cases, the knots over the hands had apparently been secured by the victims and based upon the autopsy findings and inquiry data, it was determined that the hangings were suicidal. Each victim was thought to have tied both their hands together to prevent any change of mind.

Edited January 3, 2015 by MJP

[HeijoshinCool]

As I noted in a post in another thread yesterday, suicides by hanging are known to sometimes tie their hands behind their backs. It prevents a "change of mind," when all that pain and terror replace the depression.

And before anyone says, No way, how?, the answer is, slip knots.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but from what I can see of the knot in the very small photo, it might be.

Edited January 3, 2015 by HeijoshinCool

[MJP]

Suicides by hanging are known to sometimes tie their hands behind their backs. It prevents a "change of mind," when all that pain and terror replace the depression.

And before anyone says, No way, how?, the answer is, slip knots.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but from what I can see of the knot in the very small photo, it might be.

I think the sad fact is the lad tried cutting first, backed out of that as a plan then decided on hanging. But having first backed out of cutting decided he would prevent himself from backing out of hanging, hence the tied hands.

It really is the most awful condition is depression.

[HeijoshinCool]

Suicides by hanging are known to sometimes tie their hands behind their backs. It prevents a "change of mind," when all that pain and terror replace the depression.

And before anyone says, No way, how?, the answer is, slip knots.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but from what I can see of the knot in the very small photo, it might be.

I think the sad fact is the lad tried cutting first, backed out of that as a plan then decided on hanging. But having first backed out of cutting decided he would prevent himself from backing out of hanging, hence the tied hands.

It really is the most awful condition is depression.

.

Yes.

[MJP]

Suicide is the leading cause of death in men under the age of 35 . . .

http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-statistics/suicide/

It's estimated that around one million people will die by suicide worldwide each year.

• Suicide remains the most common cause of death in men under the age of 35 (Five Years On, Department Of Health, 2005).

• More than 5700 people in the UK died by suicide in 2010 (Samaritans Information Resource Pack, 2012).

• British men are three times as likely as British women to die by suicide (Samaritans Information Resource Pack, 2004).

• The suicide rate among people over 65 has fallen by 24% in recent years, but is still high compared to the population overall. (Samaritans Information Resource Pack, 2004).

Edited January 3, 2015 by MJP

[sabaitoo]

Another poster provided a link to a research paper, albeit with rather graphic images, so I won't repost.

However, an extract from the conclusion of Precautions Taken to Avoid Abandoning the Act of Hanging and Reducing Pain in Suicidal Hanging Cases, The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, Volume 30, Number 1, March 2009.

In our study it was observed that in 5 (29.4%) of the 17 cases the hands were either limply or tightly fastened together in front or behind the body. At first glance, a hanging body found with their hands tied together would give the impression of a homicide. However, an investigation of the death scene, such as in our first case showed that the victim had tied up his own hands; 1 end of the cable was in 1 palm and the other end was free, showing bite marks on it. In the same case, a piece of paper had been placed against the hanging ligature and the victim had left a suicide note. In the second case, the hands were tied around the thigh and waist to prevent the hands from rising up. In the third case, both hands had been tied behind the body with a simple knot. Also, along with a suicide note, the door had been locked from inside, meaning anybody trying to enter the room would have to break the lock. In the fourth case, there was a suicide note left at the death scene and both hands had been fastened limply behind the back. In the fifth case, beside the presence of a suicide note, the hands had been tied behind the back and a plastic bag had been used to close the mouth. In all 5 cases, the knots over the hands had apparently been secured by the victims and based upon the autopsy findings and inquiry data, it was determined that the hangings were suicidal. Each victim was thought to have tied both their hands together to prevent any change of mind.

The keywords is how the knot is tied, above is mentioned simple knot, fastened limply in the tying of hands...if I compare this to the pictures of the current case, that knot is extremely tight into the skin and is not above the hands/thumbs as usually seen in these cases....Off course it can be a suicide, but anything else would have to have been ruled out before that conclusion is made

[BritTim]

Suicide or Murder?

I could only find five photos, and only one, not very clear one, shows both hands from behind. Based on limited evidence, I think it just possible it could be suicide, but it would be hard.

I tried to find information on the deceased, and did find some stuff but nothing recent. He gives the impression of someone who may have dropped out after college (hotel management)..

(I am not going to post more here, but anyone wanting to know his identity, or wants a copy of the photos can PM me.)

[JohnThailandJohn]

It should be noted that the first article only mentioned that it was a suicide, however someone downloaded one of the picture and zoomed in on the hands clearly tied behind the persons back...this info was send to CSILA and A.D, later more pictures from the scene were posted on CSILA ...only after this did the articles mentioned that hands tied behind the back....

It was originally solved as a suicide..until social media hit on it.. ( TV was late ;-) )

I shall not go into details of the pictures, only mention that if was in a civilized country, with the clearly visibly indications, this person would have been cut down and CPR/ Resuscitation tried..

To me it does not look like a suicide ( even if all Koh Tao friend may claim so )

While CSILA detectives may say different, the reality is you don't cut down the body until investigators have examined and photographed the scene. There is no reason to to give CPR to a corpse and it was obvious the were dealing with a corpse. In civilized (modern) countries officers are trained to know not to cut down a body but in less developed countries it is more common for an officer to cut down a body and worse cut the rope in an incorrect location damaging the investigation.

What CSILA whatever say do not interest me, definition of a corpse is well defined, any trained professional see what I see on those pictures, also procedures in handling of hangings differ from your imagination, from your statements I concur that you really do not have a clue what you are talking about..so lets just leave it at that... go on defending you interest

Generally you would cut them down, especially if there are indicators of O² supply to the red blood cells, that would be colour of skin, an eventual pressure in vains and arteries, body temperature etc...off course the fastening of the rope and the noose is left untouched as forensics is interested in the knots, however as I stated before in a civilized world nobody is being left to hang if there is even a slight possibility to reanimate... For a person to be decleared dead you will need a doctor on the scene, not any flat-fooded copper or any bystander with pretended knowlegde...a layman could declare a person dead if the head is separated from the corpse or obvious signs of rigor mortis has set in, this to my knowlegde the basics in the US, northern European mainland and Scandinavia.

As for CSI LA.. Never mentioned it was great, stop putting words in my mouth..it is a Facebook group and it is usable to spread information ( and rumours, lies, whatever) and keep attention to thing that else would be buried like in the old days...

You are talking in circles --- now you are adding a bunch of qualifications of why they wouldn't cut this person down (if known dead) but then go on to say a cop can't make that judgement call bringing us back to the comment I called you out on that you are tring to defend which was

"I shall not go into details of the pictures, only mention that if was in a civilized country, with the clearly visibly indications, this person would have been cut down and CPR/ Resuscitation tried.."

Which of course you are completely 100% wrong about and not the way it is done in a civilized country where we ALWAYS want pictures of the deceased hanging along with other evidence that cannot be got if the cop cuts down a dead body.

If you made a mistake in your wording so be it but if you are trying to stand by your words, they are not correct and not the way a proper suicide is investigated. And there is absolutely nothing you can have determined from the photos that would indicate the police should have thought the corpse was alive or that would have trumped those on the scene able to confirm the victim was already deceased for what appeared to be hours.

Edit: Found something for you at http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

When the investigator is first called to the scene, he should first advise those at the scene to not cut the body down unless there is a chance of resuscitating the victim. There is no chance unless the victim was found within four minutes of hanging. Before cutting the body down, first take pictures.

** DISCLAIMER- these were written for police officers, and assume that the reader has experience and training in evidence and procedural matters as a basis within which to interpret the material. Non-professionals may occasionally find these manuals misleading or confusing.... please use them in that context.

Edited January 3, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[spiritrace]

No doubt, suicide.....

[jabis]

Having been AFK for a few hours - what has solidified peoples' minds, as it so seems, during last pages?

[Docno]

That's erue------Tie your hands in front of you and just step over them.If you make the noose properly it will tighten as you fall

I've seen, on video, nimble people -- after a great deal of struggling -- being able to do a 'step-over' with handcuffs on, but handcuffs provide some distance between the wrists. I would be curious about how wide apart this man's wrists were. Otherwise, I remain skeptical...

Also--and this is just a question--how easy is it to tie one's hands together.

[Docno]

Two stupid questions (apologies in advance)

1. How in the world does one tie one's hands behind one's back... that would seem to require some Houdini-like dexterity

2. How does one put a noose around one's neck with one's hands tied behind one's back?

There's obviously a lot for me to learn in this world...

There are two main techniques (note: do not apply in this case as the characteristics are wrong)

• You can put the noose over your head first, then tie the hands in front of you (perhaps using your teeth to help) before stepping through to place the hands behind you. This requires very good balance to avoid hanging yourself prematurely.
• Easier is to tie a very loose slip knot around one hand, put the noose over your head, place your hands behind your back and work your free hand through the gap in the very loose slip knot before tightening.

OK - I can see how this might work...

[Willy Eckerslike]

http://www.academia.edu/903627/Precautions_Taken_to_Avoid_Abandoning_the_Act_of_Hanging_and_Reducing_Pain_in_Suicidal_Hanging_Cases

Quick Google, 17/72 hanging cases in this study, pretty surprising. (Contains pics, be warned)

Unfortunately I had a friend hang himself years ago and he tied his hands so he couldn't back out of it.

I'd hazard a guess at murder hangings being rarer than suicides with hands tied.

That said, this case is suspicious obviously, for me the cuts etc..

Having looked at photos from the crime scene now, I'm actually not convinced this is anything other than suicide.

• Cuts could be self harm, an initial attempt at suicide before deciding on another method;
• There seem to be no signs of a struggle;
• From what I can make out, the hands are not tied tight together behind the back;
• The victims sarong or towel or whatever that is, is undisturbed and worn neatly.

I would not recommend others to look at these images, they are distressing.

So perhaps it is right to hold back judgement on this?

Yeah, I think suicide is actually more likely than murder.

The two cuts were on the wrist and just below the elbow joint, pretty much where you'd go at your veins I'd imagine, and just a few cm each. Not that I know much more than the typical CSI viewer.

Hope this doesn't come across as thoughtless or offensive, but I would guess the guy had a go at nicking his veins but realised the pain and nastiness of it would be a bit much, and so hung himself.

Or.................As he had wounds around his neck,............. The wounds on his arm could quite as easily be defensive wounds.....just saying!

From page 1 of this thread

"Suspicions arose over what appeared to be a suicide when on further inspection it was discovered the man’s hands were tied behind his back. Wounds were discovered around the man’s neck as well as two 5cm lacerations to his arm, one near his wrist the second near to his elbow".

[thailandusauk]

I guess that the 2 burmese boys are guilty ?

[sabaitoo]

You are talking in circles --- now you are adding a bunch of qualifications of why they wouldn't cut this person down (if known dead) but then go on to say a cop can't make that judgement call bringing us back to the comment I called you out on that you are tring to defend which was

"I shall not go into details of the pictures, only mention that if was in a civilized country, with the clearly visibly indications, this person would have been cut down and CPR/ Resuscitation tried.."

Which of course you are completely 100% wrong about and not the way it is done in a civilized country where we ALWAYS want pictures of the deceased hanging along with other evidence that cannot be got if the cop cuts down a dead body.

If you made a mistake in your wording so be it but if you are trying to stand by your words, they are not correct and not the way a proper suicide is investigated. And there is absolutely nothing you can have determined from the photos that would indicate the police should have thought the corpse was alive or that would have trumped those on the scene able to confirm the victim was already deceased for what appeared to be hours.

Edit: Found something for you at http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

When the investigator is first called to the scene, he should first advise those at the scene to not cut the body down unless there is a chance of resuscitating the victim. There is no chance unless the victim was found within four minutes of hanging. Before cutting the body down, first take pictures.

** DISCLAIMER- these were written for police officers, and assume that the reader has experience and training in evidence and procedural matters as a basis within which to interpret the material. Non-professionals may occasionally find these manuals misleading or confusing.... please use them in that context.

learn to read a full sentence....unless there is a chance of resuscitating the victim

[Shadychris]

You don't need to tie behind your back.. work it out

Please explain.

If you had been reading the thread you would have seen many times the explanation.....

Quite simply it is possible to tie your wrists together very tightly using cord and your teeth to assist with pulling the knots tight. Once they are tied simply put your legs through the loop of your arms and hey presto your hands are now tied behind your back. You dont need to be an accomplished Houdini to do this....

[Skywalker69]

John have you ever been on scene of a suicide, or are you just one of those text book experts?

As opposed to a social media conspiracy theorist who ignores textbook facts and relies on rumors and speculations?

Sadly been on scene a few times. I have lived in the real world.

Note my earlier point regarding knots.

You can pull any academic article that counter claims another point.

Even BIB are now suspicious.

So, how many knots were tied? What is the type of knot? What is the material used to tie his hand? Clearly you must know that there are no other knots based on your being able to see less than 1/4 of the rope and only half a wrist.

I guarantee your claimed experience of being at suicides doesn't come close to the textbooks that actual proven experts in the field have wrote on the subject ... if I am wrong, just point me to the link of where you have been called on to share your expert opinions on suicides or knots (based on low res image of a partial rope and wrist) ... if your expert opinion only has been called on by yourself on this Thaivisa then don't bother providing links.

So how many suicide scene have you been on then?

[jabis]

For me the last comment "So how many suicide scenes have you been on then" kinda brought my attention to the topic - how many murder scenes have you been on then?

Void arguments directed at posters taking the "high ground", whether moral or argumentative, again. FOCUS would be needed here .

[BritTim]

You don't need to tie behind your back.. work it out

Please explain.

If you had been reading the thread you would have seen many times the explanation.....

Quite simply it is possible to tie your wrists together very tightly using cord and your teeth to assist with pulling the knots tight. Once they are tied simply put your legs through the loop of your arms and hey presto your hands are now tied behind your back. You dont need to be an accomplished Houdini to do this....

Yes, it can be done, but if you are already standing on a chair with a noose around your neck it is not easy. If there is no noose around your neck yet, you need to have figured out a clever way of getting the noose around your neck without using your hands.

[englishoak]

RIP

Check the knots out in the as usual graphic pictures, they arnt slip knots and this was no unassisted suicide imo.

No one should be surprised either way as everyone knows on KT these things happen and no proper investigation will ensue anyway suicide or murder.

As a footnote, the guy is French and it would be good to know if he was a traveller long stayer on KT or a tourist.... reason being there was a French connection to the double KT murders mentioned very early on just as Sean was escaping the Island... check Andy lines ( mirror ) twitter for reference to a French witness.

Edited January 3, 2015 by englishoak

[MJP]

RIP

Check the knots out in the as usual graphic pictures, they arnt slip knots and this was no unassisted suicide imo.

No one should be surprised either way as everyone knows on KT these things happen and no proper investigation will ensue anyway suicide or murder.

As a footnote, the guy is French and it would be good to know if he was a traveller long stayer on KT or a tourist.... reason being there was a French connection to the double KT murders mentioned very early on just as Sean was escaping the Island... check Andy lines ( mirror ) twitter for reference to a French witness.

You know my views on the Koh Tao double murder, Oakie, but I'm 99% certain this was a suicide. Unrelated.

Regardless, it's whether this will be adequately investigated is what counts right now.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Sadly been on scene a few times. I have lived in the real world.

Note my earlier point regarding knots.

You can pull any academic article that counter claims another point.

Even BIB are now suspicious.

So, how many knots were tied? What is the type of knot? What is the material used to tie his hand? Clearly you must know that there are no other knots based on your being able to see less than 1/4 of the rope and only half a wrist.

I guarantee your claimed experience of being at suicides doesn't come close to the textbooks that actual proven experts in the field have wrote on the subject ... if I am wrong, just point me to the link of where you have been called on to share your expert opinions on suicides or knots (based on low res image of a partial rope and wrist) ... if your expert opinion only has been called on by yourself on this Thaivisa then don't bother providing links.

So how many suicide scene have you been on then?

16 --- happy now or would it make you feel better if I said 3 or maybe 32? Nothing I have stated here has not been backed up with links to credible sources and reports but if you want to play the unverifiable game of how many suicide scenes have you visited with anonymous internet posters play it with somebody else. Anyone can claim whatever they want on a forum, and often do, but backing it up with factual and credible links is a lot more credible than claiming to be more an expert without anything to back it up ... especially when making incorrect statements about very basic things that are known to people who are more familiar and can be verified online through credible publications.

As I stated before it is as relevant a question as is how old is your mother.

What would be relevant if you or I were at this scene or privy to the investigation. The questions I asked were relevant since a person was making a claim about knowledge of the knot(s) in this specific case where the only photo I am aware showing any knot is a partial picture of a wrist in a low res photo.

[loonodingle]

Let the poor soul rest in peace

He had left a note explaining why.

[balo]

Please stop speculate that the headman is involved in this, or nomsod.

Come on guys , this is a different case , next we'll hear from the conspiracy theorists is that a speedboat was seen leaving the island.

Let the police and CSI LA do their work first .

RIP

[BritTim]

Let the poor soul rest in peace

He had left a note explaining why.

He had left a note explaining why.

Very possibly true, but some questions:

• Has anyone except the police seen the note?
• Was it handwritten?
• Where was it found?
• Has it been checked by a native French speaker for signs of odd phrasing and grammar?
• Could it have been written under duress?

[exona]

Wasn't it last NYE when the English lad supposedly "jumped" off the cliff while on holiday with his family. Two years in a row.....

[torpedo1970]

Given the amazingly bad reputation of Death Island's police when it comes to the investigative

process, a smart move for them would have been to stay 50 feet away from the crime scene,

and ask for Khun Porntip to come down to the island. Then at least the outcome, in either

direction, would have had some believability. She sold her soul to the devil on the GT 200

fiasco, but by accounts is still pretty good on forensic examinations. Does anyone know

if she will be involved ??

On the face of it, it sure looks like murder with the hands tied. But if so, why make it so

public ? Sending a message ? If people on the island really wanted to off this guy, seems like

they would just kill him and throw the weighted body in the sea. Maybe someone on the island

wants to buy up property on the cheap, so a few very public deaths would knock down

values.....I have been there, it is very beautiful. Does not seem like place to go to kill yourself.

Am curious about the suicide note. Was it written in French ? If so, could I safely assume

the police would contact the family to get other letters he has written and do a comparative

analysis ? Or is that too much work ?

TIT

Nothing new here, please move on folks