One can bet the Je Suis Charles T-shirts are already in production

Perhaps but wearing one in heavily Muslim areas would be risking your life in much of the world. It would be seen by many many Muslims as showing sympathy to those who would "slander" the prophet. It's a nice meme though.

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

You just confirmed that you are the clueless one here.

Because we all understand why Muslims are offended.

But in Western democracies, being offended does not justify violence.

That's why they have more fights in Western "democracies" than anywhere else.

A little bit of decency and respect won't harm...

Innocent people were murdered yesterday...

Am I too demanding?

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

I totally agree Thai At Heart..

One can bet the Je Suis Charles T-shirts are already in production

Perhaps but wearing one in heavily Muslim areas would be risking your life in much of the world. It would be seen by many many Muslims as showing sympathy to those who would "slander" the prophet. It's a nice meme though.

It's not 'Charles"

It's Charlie

Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

I would totally agree with you but, What is the situation where those you are being tolerant to, refuse to be tolerant to you, and you're institutions, Laws and practices?

There are plenty of options. Most of them take hard work. You can engage with them so they understand your point of view. If their intolerance results in criminal activity, you arrest, charge, try and convict them on a non discriminatory basis. You engage their children who have to fit in with others at school and become bi-national. this is what happens to all immigrant communities. The integration and acceptance of West Indian immigration to the UK post WWII required active government intervention and programs. Same as the integration of immigrants to Australia post WWII and post Vietnam war and now post Iraq.

I would start by treating that person with respect and respecting their heritage and experience. You can then have the expectation of respect in return or work on engagement until it is achieved. I have worked as a public official. I have had to engage people who turn my stomach or hated everything I stood for. If you set achievable and clear objectives, it is possible. But you need the support of good institutions. I cannot be more specific because some of the examples are truly stomach turning and easily taken out of context.

It is all very liberal and will undoubtedly turn the stomachs of the belligerent sort. But it has been shown to work. Carrots and Sticks. Worked in the past and will with the Muslims.

The Charlie Habro cartoons are provocative. Some people argue that they caused this action. Many mainstream news agencies refuse to print them. I agree that they are provocative but believe that the artists have every right to express their opinion. For people to live according to our beliefs in a western liberal democracy, they have to accept that even though they may not like the content of the cartoon or of the speech. If they cannot, then they should not live in such places. I see a distinction between expressions of free speech and political thought through satirical cartoons and things like religious clothing or food practices.

The only problem is that these people do not want to integrate with western liberal societies. They want you to integrate into their 7th century way of society and beliefs.

I really don't think your carrot and stick will work, they will give back the stick ten fold, and eat your carrots at the same time!

What's the alternative?

start a civil war against the 6 millions muslims in France?

I think France is on the verge of something close to civil war! And not necessarily because the French start it. One alternative is that France give over part of their country to a caliphate. I wonder how much willing their would be for that?

The Politicians got themselves into this mess, it will be interesting to see how they get out of it. Any solution might not be to every ones liking. But some form of repatriation would I think be a minimum. Because I really don't think this is solvable. Fanatics are not interested in social harmony unless they control it.

The Islamic fundamentalists have shown they have no problem killing their own brethren because they do not believe in Islam the way the fanatics do. Do you think they will have a problem killing western infidels, none believers etc.

Any non Brit Europeans still think open borders are ok?

I think France is on the verge of something close to civil war! And not necessarily because the French start it. One alternative is that France give over part of their country to a caliphate. I wonder how much willing their would be for that?

The Politicians got themselves into this mess, it will be interesting to see how they get out of it. Any solution might not be to every ones liking. But some form of repatriation would I think be a minimum. Because I really don't think this is solvable. Fanatics are not interested in social harmony unless they control it.

The Islamic fundamentalists have shown they have no problem killing their own brethren because they do not believe in Islam the way the fanatics do. Do you think they will have a problem killing western infidels, none believers etc.

I think you are right France is on the verge of civil war.

But if some journalists cartoonists are ready to risk their life to pacifically keep our freedom of speech, and other are supporting their belief and carry on to fight with pens not guns, we can have hope for a better future.

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

Islam needs to change from the INSIDE. Like Christianity did. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? Have you got a spare 500 years to wait? Anyway, humoring them and acting like there isn't a problem is PART of the problem.

But it has changed but for the worse. That link with the paintings of Mohamad shows a postcard with him on from the 1920's, imagine that today, the artist would be killed or the publisher fire bombed. They need to start with the koran, but they think it's the word of god so that's a non starter.

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

You just confirmed that you are the clueless one here.

Because we all understand why Muslims are offended.

But in Western democracies, being offended does not justify violence.

That's why they have more fights in Western "democracies" than anywhere else.

A little bit of decency and respect won't harm...

Innocent people were murdered yesterday...

Am I too demanding?

No.

My heart is on the side with the victims.

Not their institutions.

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

Pretty much agree. In the fallout of this the French left is going to have to steer away from the political correctness that has characterised their approach to date. If they don't they will be eaten alive by the right or, more likely, a resurgent Le Pen ( already reflected in the polls prior to this event).

Michel Houellebecq is featured on the cover of this week's issue and while he might be viewed with contempt by old guard liberals, he is hitting the mark with many readers.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

I'm glad you are not taking to arms. I won't be either ..

I just do not see the point of playing a stupid game of "lets wind up the muslims."

Is it winding up the Muslims or the Islamic fundamentalists?

I could suggest that the majority of Muslims want a peaceful life just like you or me! I might also suggest that while they are not overjoyed by the cartoons they don't feel the need to kill the cartoonist. I think those Muslims who celebrate this fascist crime are those that are the fanatics who have no real interest in a western way of life. IMO

So do you think it'll help bring about a peaceful resolution we can all live with?

Personally I think - we'd just be playing in the hands of these evil'doers..

It wont solve anything other a moments gratification for the synaptically challenged amongst us

I think unless the Muslim communities of France and for that matter other countries play a far more pro-active role in eradicating Islam fundamentalism from among them then things will get worse, because the liberal attitude is still in play. Below is an interesting article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ayaan-hirsi-ali/how-to-respond-to-paris-attack_b_6433260.html

Quote; This would be a departure for the West, which too often has responded to jihadist violence with appeasement. We appease the Muslim heads of government who lobby us to censor our press, our universities, our history books, our school curricula. They appeal and we oblige. We appease leaders of Muslim organizations in our societies. They ask us not to link acts of violence to the religion of Islam because they tell us that theirs is a religion of peace, and we oblige. end Quote

So until we stop appeasing Muslim organisations (who even have fanatics among themselves) and Say that this is the west, we have freedoms which we will not give up for any faith, because our freedoms protects all faiths. If you don't like living in a free western democracy then please go somewhere where you can live the way you want, in Peace!

One can bet the Je Suis Charles T-shirts are already in production

Perhaps but wearing one in heavily Muslim areas would be risking your life in much of the world. It would be seen by many many Muslims as showing sympathy to those who would "slander" the prophet. It's a nice meme though.

Once the initial shock of this attack has worn off, I wouldn't be at all surprised if 'Je suis Charlie' is at first gently discouraged and later on declared hate speech when the authorities think they can get away with it, in Europe at least. It seems to me this is their general modus operandi...

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

You just confirmed that you are the clueless one here.

Because we all understand why Muslims are offended.

But in Western democracies, being offended does not justify violence.

That's why they have more fights in Western "democracies" than anywhere else.

A little bit of decency and respect won't harm...

Innocent people were murdered yesterday...

Am I too demanding?

No.

My heart is on the side with the victims.

Not their institutions.

well, the people at Charlie Hebdo died also for you to be able to express your "opinion"

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

To tell you the truth I am more sick of the apologists and appeasers, noticable by their absence today.

We were shafted by the PC liberal brigade, we accepted and accomodated them, what did they do, bite the hand that feeds, shit in our nest.

Best they off to the new caliphate in Syria, if any of them are short of a bob or two I am more than willing to fork out for a one way ticket.

And still the Brussels brigade and EU turn a blind eye to it, too busy riding their bloody gravy train.

On reflection, its perfectly understanable now how a certain Austrian garnered so much support in the '30s.

Never mind their human rights are more important than our core values, that took centuries to realize, cant wait for some cause celebre jump on the bandwagon type like Cherie Blair to tell us its our fault, we dont understand them.

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

You don't get it.

I share the same *personal* values of respect and decency with you.

But these are personal values, in the same way as a religion is personal, i.e. not something to be forced on others using deadly force.

I affirm and support everyone's right to be indecent and obscene within the limits set by the LAW.

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

You don't get it.

I share the same *personal* values of respect and decency with you.

But these are personal values, in the same way as a religion is personal, i.e. not something to be forced on others using deadly force.

I affirm and support everyone's right to be indecent and obscene within the limits set by the LAW.

Why did you change your ID?

Jihadist flags and molotov cocktails were found in the first abandoned car yesterday !
Around 10:30 this morning they robbed a gas station in Villers-Côtterets city, the police are on their trail and the noose tightens...

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

Pretty much agree. In the fallout of this the French left is going to have to steer away from the political correctness that has characterised their approach to date. If they don't they will be eaten alive by the right or, more likely, a resurgent Le Pen ( already reflected in the polls prior to this event).

Michel Houellebecq is featured on the cover of this week's issue and while he might be viewed with contempt by old guard liberals, he is hitting the mark with many readers.

If Houellebecq is spot on about the situation regarding Muslims, he does not offer any solution as to what to do, and stay hidden behind his fictions, comfortably in his parisian flat.

These guys were in action, everyday fighting barbarism with their pencils, and if their deaths could inspire more to follow their steps, there is hope.

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

Well, its interesting to the extent that he believes there is an overwhelming feeling of anti-islamism blowing up all over europe.

I have no problem with moderate, erudite, liberal anyones. i do however, have a problem with fundamentalist anyones, be they hari krishna, catholic, buddhist, moonie or other. I am sick of burkhas and ghettos springing up all over the place. i am sick of arranged marriages and anything else that comes from funadmentalism. i am sick of anti-abortionists and hasidic Jews too.

Freely practice what you like, but do it under the auspices of the culture and laws of the country in which you live. Simple.

Pretty much agree. In the fallout of this the French left is going to have to steer away from the political correctness that has characterised their approach to date. If they don't they will be eaten alive by the right or, more likely, a resurgent Le Pen ( already reflected in the polls prior to this event).

Michel Houellebecq is featured on the cover of this week's issue and while he might be viewed with contempt by old guard liberals, he is hitting the mark with many readers.

France was the first European country to ban the full-face Islamic veil in public places. France has about five million Muslims - the largest Muslim minority in Western Europe - but it is thought only about 2,000 women wear full veils.

BBC News - The Islamic veil across Europe - BBC.com

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13038095

The local reporter wrote: This driver crossed the police convoy on the road: "there had to foot police they told me 'go away if you value your life".

Any non Brit Europeans still think open borders are ok?

The borders should be closed NOW,,, Also send them all back to where they came from. We have now had enough,They got their education etc now they should all go home and try and help their countrys that they deserted.

Go home

Jihadist flags and molotov cocktails were found in the first abandoned car yesterday !

Around 10:30 this morning they robbed a gas station in Villers-Côtterets city, the police are on their trail and the noose tightens...

Hope it comes to a shoot-out and the Muslim scum goes straight to hell!!

Fanatic extremists like them don't deserve a trial provided by a system they despise.

Sure the French Police will only be too happy to help the cowards to a another life after their killing of two of their colleagues!!

The police helicopter flying over the area of Soissons city now...

Sure the French Police will only be too happy to help the cowards to a another life after their killing of two of their colleagues!!

Three! A policewoman killed today.

Jihadist flags and molotov cocktails were found in the first abandoned car yesterday !

Around 10:30 this morning they robbed a gas station in Villers-Côtterets city, the police are on their trail and the noose tightens...

Hope it comes to a shoot-out and the Muslim scum goes straight to hell!!

Fanatic extremists like them don't deserve a trial provided by a system they despise.

Sure the French Police will only be too happy to help the cowards to a another life after their killing of two of their colleagues!!

The Frog Police will, that is for sure

Choosing to be offended

Start actively investigating all activitsts, trying them for treason against the state and imprisoning or deporting them back to their countries of origin.

Much like the mess that they got into with the stupid Imam in London and his right to a family life in the UK. He was inciting hatred, and as such is an enemy of the British state and forgives his right to stay active in British society. It took how long and how many appeals to get rid of him?

Then make is a 10 year prison sentence for not reporting to authorities that one knows about extremists in the community. By remaining silent, you are complicit. Now please don't tell me that no one knew about what these 3 guys were up to. Not one person from a mosque? Lock them up and keep locking them up until the muslim part of society understands that living in a liberal country comes with certain obligations to freedom of thought and speech. if they do not wish to comply then they are free to depart anytime at the tax payers expense. if I know my neighbour is having a meeting with a bunch of known criminals next door and they intend to rob a bank and I do nothing, well, I am complicit. The same thing goes for knowing that your brother, father, mother or sister is about to carry out a terrorist attack.

I would also from a British perspective retain the right to remove the right of citizenship given to all immigrants if they subsequently prove themselves to be a danger to society, beyond this, if you come to the UK and abuse our hospitality by pedalling hate and also choose to bring an immigrant wife with you and produce children, sorry, but your family can depart with you and be refused access to public funds. I would put a very simple statement on anyones' ILR request, "have you ever been part of, associated with, or suported any organisation which can be deemed to be a terrorist or extremist organisation under the description of the British government."

Simple lie and automatic deportation.

I think you start to lead us down a dangerous path to some Orwellian or soviet style repression. While not in the same league as the 'kill them all' which I see again repeated on this thread, I wonder if this is not following a similar route? I do agree that a consequence of the Paris attacks may well be more active roles for intelligence agencies. The very nature of the way these type of organisations work fills me with dread at this potential development. Hard line responses such as you propose may appeal but once you start pushing the boundaries of basic freedoms, where do you draw the line?