12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[Morch]

Actions?

Like the Arab governments fighting ISIS you mean?

Like Algeria providing intelligence to Europe on suspected terrorists?

Like individual Muslims informing on family members who may be travelling to Syria to fight (yes, it happens)?

<snip>

Some Muslim governments (Iran is not Arab, so...) are participating in the fighting against IS. Some do not. Some try not to get involved. Some not outright helping IS, but also not doing much to curb their activities. Overall, in comparison to the level of threat IS posses for neighboring Muslim governments, it is simply amazing that their level of participation is not significantly higher, when compared to Western members of the coalition.

Algeria providing intelligence to European countries is probably a reference to the recent topic appearing on this forum. Don't let it being reported by a questionable source stop you from making it a concrete fact. It could be true, but let me assume that if it the report was not in-tune with your views, the same observation would have been made by yourself.

Latest reports spoke about thousands of Muslims residing in the West heading to the Middle East in order to join IS (or AQ, whatever). How many reports even mention families taking action to prevent members from going? What figures do they cite?

There are actions by Muslims and Muslim governments, this much is true. Painting it as if it represents a decisive, mass movement of opposing IS and the like is incorrect.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Morch

[NeverSure]

-snip-

BTW, I'm not at the mosque because I am not a Muslim.

That's long past getting hard to believe.

[JDGRUEN]

Why so totalitarian?

Remember people can act in different roles, eg.

As a believer, I go to my mosque or church (or whatsoever)

As a worker, I go to my working place.

As being dark or pale skinned, I attend my ethnic entertainment.

And as a citizen, I'm part of multicultural Europe.

More Gibberish --

It's called organic solidarity according to French sociologist Emile Durkheim and many more, and your posthumous insult to Ahmed the policeman who died for your rights to post.

In America we call your self serving - self revealing comments 'Baloney' ... Posting your amateur attempts at 'Philosophy' has little effect or bearing on the subject. As with your previous life event revealing posts which can be classified as TMI -- Too much (personal) information - posting personal 'feelings' seems to be your style... as opposed to discussion of facts and issues. Your personal internal 'feelings' about the travails of life matters little. 'Just the facts will do'. But go ahead and wallow if you please...

​And no matter how much you twist and turn words -- your accusations do not stick. As with liberals in general it seems to be your belief that feelings and emotions override facts... even to the extent that cold blooded killings done AGAIN by Islamic Terrorists - punishing others for not believing in a Cult Religion and bowing to their god ... you make post after emotional post subtly spinning and twisting facts - turning them into excuses begging for tolerance of the Totally Intolerant Blood Thirsty Radical Muslims.

[JDGRUEN]

Muslims never guilty of 'terrorist massacres,' Turkey's Erdogan insists

Turkish President Recip Tayyip Erdogan’s increasingly bizarre rhetoric continued this week when he told reporters Muslims have "never taken part in terrorist massacres" and appeared to blame the West for the recent Islamist attacks in Paris.



http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/16/turkey-erdogan-continues-move-away-from-west-blaming-paris-attacks-on/

[Steely Dan]

Arab governments are providing more than a token gesture; maybe you should read some proper news.

See my response in the relevant topic about you post saying that Algerian forces attacking Islamist militants is, in your view, supporting those militants.

How many Muslims have informed on people attempting to join ISIS. I don't know, and you don't either; but I suggest it's more than 1 or 2.

Terrorist are committing 'bad actions' and these do get more press than the 'good actions.'

But despite your and your fellow Islamaphobes assertions; those committing the 'bad actions' do not represent Islam nor the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

Unlike you, I do not belong to the "All cows are animals, therefore all animals are cows' brigade.

I wont be apologising for calling you a liar; because I didn't.

You hang onto logical fallacies like a young boy hangs onto Pannini football stickers, as such you tie yourself in pretzels in some misguided effort to reverse the sea change in public opposition. Islam is deeply problematic for any democratic society, but this is not to say all Muslims are bad, before you fire back your usual fallacy confusing Muslims (people) with the ideology (Islam).

A recent Saudi opinion poll found 91% of respondents thought ISIS were following Islam and were true to its values. Yet you persist in arguing that Islamic terrorists are nothing to do with Islam, whilst simultaneously stating you are not Muslim.

You are no longer worthy of serious debate, though lampooning is great fun as world events rob the Emperor of his clothes one by one.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Ulysses G.]

-snip-

BTW, I'm not at the mosque because I am not a Muslim.

That's long past getting hard to believe.

LONG past.

[stat088]

My condolences to the families of the victims and for the murdered people may they rest in Peace.

These savage murderers have to be stopped.

It has nothing to do with religion but with the arrogance and ignorance of some people using religion to accomplish their murder instincts.

Hope they catch them soon and let them rot for the rest of their miserable lives in jail.

[micmichd]

Why so totalitarian?

Remember people can act in different roles, eg.

As a believer, I go to my mosque or church (or whatsoever)

As a worker, I go to my working place.

As being dark or pale skinned, I attend my ethnic entertainment.

And as a citizen, I'm part of multicultural Europe.

More Gibberish --

It's called organic solidarity according to French sociologist Emile Durkheim and many more, and your posthumous insult to Ahmed the policeman who died for your rights to post.

In America we call your self serving - self revealing comments 'Baloney' ... Posting your amateur attempts at 'Philosophy' has little effect or bearing on the subject. As with your previous life event revealing posts which can be classified as TMI -- Too much (personal) information - posting personal 'feelings' seems to be your style... as opposed to discussion of facts and issues. Your personal internal 'feelings' about the travails of life matters little. 'Just the facts will do'. But go ahead and wallow if you please...

​And no matter how much you twist and turn words -- your accusations do not stick. As with liberals in general it seems to be your belief that feelings and emotions override facts... even to the extent that cold blooded killings done AGAIN by Islamic Terrorists - punishing others for not believing in a Cult Religion and bowing to their god ... you make post after emotional post subtly spinning and twisting facts - turning them into excuses begging for tolerance of the Totally Intolerant Blood Thirsty Radical Muslims.

Thanks for finding out I'm emotional, I take it as a compliment. Maybe I'm a bit narcissistic, too, better than paranoid. My personal stories are just examples to demonstrate I know what I'm talking about, it is not your life, it's mine.

You talk about facts when most of them are labels. You see a forest where I see trees, because I have been inside the forest. That's all.

[Fab5BKK]

Actions?

Like the Arab governments fighting ISIS you mean?

Like Algeria providing intelligence to Europe on suspected terrorists?

Like individual Muslims informing on family members who may be travelling to Syria to fight (yes, it happens)?

Your implication was clear; no matter how much you now try to back peddle.

40 people - out of how many millions of Muslims in Pakistan?

And don't forget - Peshawar is Pashtoonistan, the heartland of an organization once sponsored by the CIA: Taliban.

Think you missed ( ignored ) the important part.

"They are heroes of Islam.

The important part is not what the cleric said; the important part is how few people he represents!

As micmichd says, he represents an extremely tiny minority in Pakistan.

Yet you post as if he represents the entire Muslim world!

That is the point you (deliberately?) missed.

BTW, I'm not at the mosque because I am not a Muslim. I wont be at the synagogue tomorrow because I am not Jewish. I wont be at the church on Sunday because I am not Christian. I may be at the Thai Buddhist temple in the near future; but only because my wife is Buddhist; I'm not but she likes me to go with her.

Just 2 examples,

... like Qatar giving funds to terrorists...

... like al quaida saying they were behind the attacks in France.

After all, they are, may be, not muslims...

Just hilarious.

[nontabury]

Farage is fond of parading his few immigrant supporters in front of the press; but read his party's literature.

.

Perhaps you would like to give us your opinion of this gentleman.

http://w.w.w.mirror.co...m-tells-4970498

Which gentleman?

That link just takes me to the OP of this topic.

I was asking you for your opinion of Ahmed Aboutaled the mayor of Rotherham, please see post 1289.

Do you consider this person to be a Bigot,a Racialist suffering from Islamaphobia, or perhaps just plain mad, as his views seem to be opposite to yours.

Could it possible be that what he says is spot on.

[micmichd]

Rotterdam, 2nd biggest city of Holland. Sure you'll be able to spot him.

[Fab5BKK]

Rotherham is NOT Rotterdam lol

Before giving lessons to everyone (or trying to...), please go back to school.

Trust me it won't hurt!

[micmichd]

http://www.financialbuzz.com/rotterdam-mayor-tells-unhappy-muslims-to-f-off-global-news-204568

Beg your pardon?

[H1w4yR1da]

Anyway, its Friday, why are you not at the Mosque ?

Bullseye!

Jock has a way of cutting through all the BS.

[H1w4yR1da]

Actions?

Like the Arab governments fighting ISIS you mean?

Like Algeria providing intelligence to Europe on suspected terrorists?

Like individual Muslims informing on family members who may be travelling to Syria to fight (yes, it happens)?

The Arab governments fighting ISIS are doing so to save their own skin. Nothing to do with any higher purpose such as preventing worldwide Islamic terrorism.

Likewise individual Muslims informing on family members travelling to fight for ISIS.

Again, done so I order to protect the family member from harm and nothing to do with concern over his potential victims.

Get real!

[micmichd]

So what?

You want the action, don't care about the motivation behind.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

[nontabury]

Farage is fond of parading his few immigrant supporters in front of the press; but read his party's literature.

.

Perhaps you would like to give us your opinion of this gentleman.

http://w.w.w.mirror.co...m-tells-4970498

Which gentleman?

That link just takes me to the OP of this topic.

I was asking you for your opinion of Ahmed Aboutaled the mayor of Rotherham, please see post 1289.

Do you consider this person to be a Bigot,a Racialist suffering from Islamaphobia, or perhaps just plain mad, as his views seem to be opposite to yours.

Could it possible be that what he says is spot on.

Sorry should have said Rotherdam, having lived in Rotherham for many,many years, for some reason it's stuck in my head. My apologies.

[micmichd]

http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/info/100004/council_and_democracy/781/rotherham_mayor

This is the new mayor of Rotherham, the old one is probably stuck for his "personal reasons" that made him quit his job.

Honestly, try Rotterdam, if you want the voice of a Muslim mayor from one of the big cities in Europe.

[dragonfly94]

The point you have (deliberately?) missed; the simple fact you have ignored is that the vast majority of the Muslim world do not support these terrorists.

You use one cleric's words as proof that they do.

The terrorists, those you call 'nutjobs' do not represent Islam; except in their own perverted minds.

The governments, organisations and individuals who have condemned the terrorist do represent Islam; even though one may not agree with all the policies of the governments concerned.

I will look up the previous posts where you have called Muslims who condemn terrorists liars and get back to you.

But all Muslims DO support the violent supremacist koran that is directly responsible for terrorism. They also regard the prophet (also a terrorist) as the perfect man. Just because the vast majority don't support the methods most certainly support the aims and all support the fantasy Allah and his fairy tale hate book.

[7by7]

Can't have it both ways - if it is important that Muslim community leaders condemn the attack, why are we asked to disregard a community leader saying the opposite? Is his view less representative because he's a local religious authority? Because he does not live in the West? Or, perhaps, because his view does not go along with the program?

His view is obviously less representative than Muslim governments and organisations such as the Muslim Council of Britain because he represents a mere handful of people.

As do the likes of Anjem Choudary. He gets a lot of publicity, but he does not represent the vast majority British Muslims; many of whom complain about the publicity the media give him.

[Morch]

Can't have it both ways - if it is important that Muslim community leaders condemn the attack, why are we asked to disregard a community leader saying the opposite? Is his view less representative because he's a local religious authority? Because he does not live in the West? Or, perhaps, because his view does not go along with the program?

His view is obviously less representative than Muslim governments and organisations such as the Muslim Council of Britain because he represents a mere handful of people.

As do the likes of Anjem Choudary. He gets a lot of publicity, but he does not represent the vast majority British Muslims; many of whom complain about the publicity the media give him.

This is getting ridiculous. Every time an example of a "community leader" (or equivalent) making such statements is brought up, the standard reply is that it is an isolated event, or represents a tiny group of people. This is then compared with statements to the opposite direction, but these are treated as grouped, rather than individual.

So yes, a single statement would not be representative. When there are many such "individual" statements worldwide, saying the same thing - it is different.

How is a well integrated Muslim living in the West more representative than the likes of this Pakistani religious leader?

How do despotic rulers of Muslim countries represent their people's views?

[Morch]

* Removed post edited out*

Avoiding the issue.

The question was not whether there is actually a successful Islamisation of Europe, but why is this even something that people would need to worry about. The thesis of "nothing to see, move along" just does not hold water with current events and ongoing experiences to the contrary. Why do Muslims feel that they have the right to bring these issues up the way they do, and why do European governments allow it?

That pesky tiny minority again. Not the issue. Issue that they should feel empowered to go about it. And "now virtually ceased"? Seriously? What was were the Paris attacks, then?

Nice attempt at deflection. Note that my original posted stated "I could be wrong, but cannot offhand think of a similar behavior by another immigrant/minority group that reaches the same scope or is similarly aggressive (not necessarily violent) when it comes to having its way." Do tell how this signs incident represent anything resembling Muslim efforts on this front.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Scott

[7by7]

Morch, you asked a specific question about a specific issue. You did not ask who was responsible for these murders.

That you don't like the truth is your problem, not mine; but I thought better of you.

Please don't descend to the pathetic levels of certain posters.

If Muslims who support, publicly or privately, these murders and similar atrocities are the majority, or even a significant minority, why is it that the only evidence of this support comes from fringe elements like the Pakistani cleric or terrorist organisations?

Why is it that the majority of comments on this atrocity from Muslims the world over is condemnation?

Why is it that the majority of Muslims worldwide condemn the terrorist organisations?

Don't believe me? Do a bit of research.

Something the disciples of the failed comedian Condell wont do as they know in their hearts it will prove Condell to be the same as that Pakistani cleric; a man who spreads hate and division for his own ends. In Condell's case a pathetic desire for publicity since his career in comedy, such as it was, went down the toilet.

I suspect that the Pakistani cleric has similar failure issues leading to a similar need for publicity.

[JDGRUEN]

Another example of the extremes of Islam in a neighboring country of France...

Muslim thugs rip a photo from a man's hands as he is praying at the feet of a Statue of Mary... they then break the statue and pee on it...

Muslim Immigrants Smash & Urinate on Virgin Mary Statue in Italy



http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/01/muslim-immigrants-smash-urinate-on-virgin-mary-statue-in-italy/

[nontabury]

I'm in the opinion that this "terrorist attack" was not done in the name of Islam but as a terrorist attack by intelligence agents of the West including the CIA & Mossad.
It is interesting that France's position before the attacks on their sympathies with the Palestinians & calls for an end of sanctions to Russia..All this is changed..France is now more aligned with the US foreign policy & the majority of people in the west blaming the Muslims..
"No more French votes with the Palestinians against the Washington-Israeli position. No more growing European sympathy with the Palestinians. No more growing European opposition to launching new wars in the Middle East. No more calls from the French president to end the sanctions against Russia." (DR. Paul Craig Roberts)
The fact that one of the brothers involved with the terrorist attack left his ID in the getaway car,they were killed so they can't talk. the 3rd suspect gave himself up to police after he heard his name in the media with a strong alibi,that the Police Commissioner Helric Fredou involved with the Charlie Hebdo committed suicide sounds quite suspicious to me.
But now the droves of people that have followed the western press narrative & now verbally bashing Muslims and forgetting that it is the West that has killing tens of thousands of innocent Muslims since 2001.
Israel is exercising genocide on the Palestinians.
The US bombs wedding parties from the sky with drones.
So in the west we can all come together and have someone to blame..it couldn't be our own governments that are causing our lack of freedoms,our economic demise or the road to nuclear war.
Wake up..don't be sheep![/quote


Can you confirm that the ID belonged to one of the terrorist, I ask this question as I was under the impression that the ID belonged to some innocent schoolboy, who at the time of the attack was in fact at school.
The rest of your rant can simple be described as utter rubbish.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed. This topic is about the attack in Paris. Comparisons need to be made with the topic of the thread in mind.

[7by7]

Another example of the extremes of Islam in a neighboring country of France...

Muslim thugs rip a photo from a man's hands as he is praying at the feet of a Statue of Mary... they then break the statue and pee on it...

Muslim Immigrants Smash & Urinate on Virgin Mary Statue in Italy

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/01/muslim-immigrants-smash-urinate-on-virgin-mary-statue-in-italy/

Any ideas why there are no reports of this incident in the mainstream media? It can't be to appease Muslims; papers like the Daily Mail leap on things like this.

Even the fringe media which has reported the incident have to admit, despite their headlines, that it was ' unidentified foreigners' who committed this act, with absolutely no proof they were Muslim.

Most of the reports,such as this one, go on to quote Monsignor Paolo Giulietti, the auxiliary bishop of Città della Pieve, near Perugia

For Islam, the figure of Mary is very important: she is the mother of the Prophet Jesus conceived in virginity, and the Blessed Virgin is the most holy woman. Muslims pray at the Marian shrines in the Middle East. We cannot see in this act of vandalism—which as I said is wrong in every way—an episode of religious hatred. It is important not to feed mutual suspicion, especially at this time.

See also; Mary in Islam and What does the Qur'an say about Mary, the mother of Jesus?

So will one of the self proclaimed Islamic 'experts' here explain why Muslims would desecrate a shrine to a woman they consider to be holy?

The people who committed this desecration may have been Muslim; but if so they committed this act of vandalism despite their faith, not because of it.

[JDGRUEN]

Another example of the extremes of Islam in a neighboring country of France...

Muslim thugs rip a photo from a man's hands as he is praying at the feet of a Statue of Mary... they then break the statue and pee on it...

Muslim Immigrants Smash & Urinate on Virgin Mary Statue in Italy

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/01/muslim-immigrants-smash-urinate-on-virgin-mary-statue-in-italy/

Any ideas why there are no reports of this incident in the mainstream media? It can't be to appease Muslims; papers like the Daily Mail leap on things like this.

Even the fringe media which has reported the incident have to admit, despite their headlines, that it was ' unidentified foreigners' who committed this act, with absolutely no proof they were Muslim.

Most of the reports,such as this one, go on to quote Monsignor Paolo Giulietti, the auxiliary bishop of Città della Pieve, near Perugia

For Islam, the figure of Mary is very important: she is the mother of the Prophet Jesus conceived in virginity, and the Blessed Virgin is the most holy woman. Muslims pray at the Marian shrines in the Middle East. We cannot see in this act of vandalism—which as I said is wrong in every way—an episode of religious hatred. It is important not to feed mutual suspicion, especially at this time.

See also; Mary in Islam and What does the Qur'an say about Mary, the mother of Jesus?

So will one of the self proclaimed Islamic 'experts' here explain why Muslims would desecrate a shrine to a woman they consider to be holy?

The people who committed this desecration may have been Muslim; but if so they committed this act of vandalism despite their faith, not because of it.

Excuse it anyway you like -- you have become expert at making excuses for excesses done by Muslims.

[7by7]

Show me where I have excused this act of vandalism.

What evidence do you have, other than the headlines which are later contradicted in the actual articles, that this act was committed by Muslims?

Edited January 19, 2015 by 7by7