Dispute With Thai Neighbour

[terry57]

Looks like the guy had some really bad luck. On top of spending 15 month i jail just waiting for his day in court a Danish embassy employee emptied his bank account

Some more info from the same source:

James, who pleads not guilty, was arrested and during his fifteen months ordeal in prison six of them in isolation. This resulted in breakdowns where James was admitted to hospital. The Dane has furthermore lost 25 kilos and several teethes as a result of lack of C-vitamins.

On top of this he was betrayed by an employee at the Danish embassy who stole all his saving money from his bank account.

It was not until the Danish newspaper BT made the story public that James Christensen was released on June 2. 2006. The mayor of Langsuan bailed him out for approximately 500.000 Baht just a couple of days after the article about James Christensen made headlines in Denmark.

The trial starting today will run for three days and includes several witnesses.

If James Christensen is found guilty he will face up to lifetime in Thai prison.

moral of the story : do not frigg with the thais if you want to live happily within thailand.

things can turn ugly very quickly.

i have sort of come to respect this situation and its taught me to be more patient.

i would never say things to a thai that i might say to a farang.

it also gives me an insight into there polite coulture and tolerant society

its not hard to work out is it.

thats why there so cool on the outside as they be running around bloody stabbing each other over piss all .

only an observation punters

cheers mates

[Charma]

He might be in the can because of the ubiquitous "just set a fire in front of their house to teach'em a lesson.... what are they going to do? have you arrested?" type posts here at TV.

Good point. I remember a recent thread of member who had got into a dispute with neighbours who alleged he had ran over their dog. Many of the posters advised a "<deleted> em" attitude in response to that situation.

The sentence may well reflect the very serious risks of a fire involving gas cannisters where the court perhaps felt there was an intent to endanger life.

As SBK said, only two people know the whole truth, but in the least this guy seems to underestimated the dangers of upsetting the locals.

[Thaible]

It's great to see Thais supporting each other.

[baboon]

moral of the story : do not frigg with the thais if you want to live happily within thailand.

things can turn ugly very quickly.

i have sort of come to respect this situation and its taught me to be more patient.

i would never say things to a thai that i might say to a farang.

it also gives me an insight into there polite coulture and tolerant society

its not hard to work out is it.

thats why there so cool on the outside as they be running around bloody stabbing each other over piss all .

only an observation punters

cheers mates

Terry mate, you make a fair point but consider this; It could be YOU in the wrong place at the wrong time and then what are you going to do?

"Terry, you are a c###."

"Never mind mate."

"Terry, your woman is a W####."

"Never mind, mate."

"Terry, your children are ass####s."

"Never mind, mate." ?????????

Today, my Wife had a bit of a barney with the husband of one of our customers. Apperently he really gave her a hard time as she seemed really upset. I told her if he comes back for some more, come and tell me and I will give him a crack. I hate violence and try to avoid it at all costs, but I will not allow anyone to treat the missus like crap without good reason.

Cheers mate.

[otherstuff1957]

It's great to see Thais supporting each other.

Will you be heading down to Chompun to join the Plaintiff and Judge at dinner then Thaible?

[SamuiJens]

Btw, and quite sure it crossed other minds too, I wouldn't be surprised if the 'small fire' was a DIY job that went wrong.

According to the evidence as published, this would be as likely as the Dane having resorted to arson in a situation that would have the blame point straight at him.

keda

Evidence as published, as you so correctly point out. Only these two know what the truth is. There are two sides to every story and I think it highly interesting that people automatically assume innocence on the part of the farang and blame on the part of the Thai. There are just as many short tempered dodgy farangs around as there are Thais.

So, I think random speculation on this story is pretty silly. No one who knows the guy, the area or the facts has actually posted anything to negate or validate any theories put forth here.

I'll agree with that, and Im Danish, and not the person written about. But too much booz and no money in pocket can make some farang very mad.

[meemiathai]

Is it 15 years or 15 months?

15 years sounds ridiculous!

[keda]

That's the worrying thing about it.

keda

[Ling Kae]

Disputes with neighbours are always best avoided in any country, but here they should be avoided like the Plague! A farang can never win here, he is always in the wrong (and sometimes rightly so). In a group society like this one, there is never a shortage of witnesses to say that you did something that you did not do. Yet on the otherside of the coin rich murders walk free. Live and enjoy here, but remember you have virtually no rights whatsoever, when you forget that, then the trouble really starts! I hope that sensibile justice will prevail here!

This is very sound advice.

So, I'll leave you with three questions:

is secondary (not the house, but surrounding property) damage worth 54,00 baht proportionate to 10-15 years prison? How does this compare to other trials of similar property disputes?

what are the motives of both the defendent and plantiffs?

I seriously doubt if these questions were even posed, nevermind answered.

*edit typos

I don't know about property disputes but considering a recent case of a New Zealander getting murdered in Pattaya, the woman actually admitted she had something to do with the murder but the Police let her go as there was insufficient evidence. She admitted it, how much evidence do you need? More info can be found here.

[Heng]

But too much booz and no money in pocket can make some farang very mad.

It does the same to locals as well. I try to remind myself of that when dealing with anyone, whether my falang or Thai tenants, customers, or random folks on the street. Pretty easy to tell when someone's drunk, but not as easy to read that they have just been fired, lost it all in the market, or have completely depleted their life savings and are just looking for a fight.

[sriracha john]

Too bad he didn't take flight back to Denmark when initially released on bail...

Let's hope his sister can raise the funds for his second opportunity at bail and that he can get out of the country and on with his life.

[Neeranam]

Ive never felt close to comfortable or safe outside of Bangkok.

Really, Why not?

[kmart]

Gas canisters can be made into lethal bombs or "blevvies" quite easily; and have been used to kill people and claim falsely for insurance purposes.

Having said that. The sentence and "trial" sounds like a total travesty, and just a means of extorting all the money they can from this bloke.

One thing I remember from working in Khanom; S. Thailand, is one of my Thai engineers telling me that local problems in Bangkok and environs might end up at the police station; but problems in S. Thailand can sometimes end up in the wat. ie someone might get killed as a result of some seemingly trivial matter.

[VanZam]

The first thing that came to mind when reading this: How do we know that the Thai farmers did not set this up themselves? He claims the gas bottles were outside his house empty, perfect timing for the Thai farmer to get rid of an annoying neighbour and make some coin in the process.

The 15 year sentence is just plain stupid, regardless of what happened.

[LaReina]

Poor guy.. just another way to extort money from someone perceived as having more than they might really have.

The real shame lies on his incompetent embassy.

Why have a passport and citizenship when your country is willing to sit and watch you rot in hel_l. IF THEY wanted to do something about it, they could. Surely he worked and paid taxes and supported his countries economy prior to moving to Thailand.

[udon]

The Australian & New Zealand Embassies in Cambodia are no better.

Google Clint Betterridge & Bart Lauwaert or better still, http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~41~page_num~8.html

[Heng]

I think the logic from the embassy is that if 99.9% of its citizens/tourists/expats manage to avoid becoming involved in murder, rape, and arson cases while abroad... you can too - so while we're not pointing fingers, it's probably your fault-.

[terry57]

when finding ones self in conflict with the thai people just think of it this way

the thais are the handgrenade and you are holding the handgranade.

its your choise wheather you try and be real gentle with it or real rough with it.

but we have to consider this very point :

the thai always have there finger on the pin.

cheers friends

[North]

Poor guy.. just another way to extort money from someone perceived as having more than they might really have.

The real shame lies on his incompetent embassy.

Why have a passport and citizenship when your country is willing to sit and watch you rot in hel_l. IF THEY wanted to do something about it, they could. Surely he worked and paid taxes and supported his countries economy prior to moving to Thailand.

I just saw this thread this evening and have been looking around for finding more information.

James christensen was retired and lived from a invalidity pension from Denmark.

Unfortunately for him the danish parliament changed the law last year, so when a pensioner is in prison, convicted or not, they will take away his pension, so now he is totally lost without any funds !!

And yes, you are right, it´s a shame, that the danish embassy in Bangkok is really incompetent.

I am a dane myself,and I am ashamed of the way, we (don´t) help our countrymen, when they are in trouble. The danish embassy also failed when the tsunami hit in December 2004.

If someone can spare a little money, have a look at this link:

ScandAsia.com

North

[markokang]

Unfortunately this is true! I can't say it strongly enough but you will almost ALWAYS loose! Its completely racist and illogical but I have seen it too many times! just avoid ANY problems, if you do have one get out of it quick as possible, pay money, whatever! Just get out of that situation quickly! DO get a Thai friend involved. Accpet the fact that you are wrong and pay pay pay. If you take it to the police or court, you are really screwed and may be up with more charges and twists to the story may develop. A word from a Thai is worth 10 from 10 farang. Avoid conflict!, say sorry even if its not your fault! get away from the situation ASAP. If you think theres no chance of getting caught, do a runner! Im not joking! You WILL always be wrong!

http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?news...mp;coun_code=th

Thai Court Sentences Dane to 15 Years Imprisonment

"I am shocked," admitted Danish consul in Thailand, Ulrik Holt-Sorensen when the verdict in the grotesque case against the 44 year old Dane, James Christensen, was explained to him.

A Thai judge in the provincial court in Langsuan in Chumporn in Southern Thailand yesterday found James Christensen guilty of attempted arson against his Thai neighbor back in February last year and consequently sentenced him to 15 years in prison. In the same verdict, the judge then pardonned him of the last five years of the sentence, so James will now "only" have to spend ten years in prison.

The judge based his verdict of guilty on the fact that James had "admitted" that the gas tanks found at the neighbors farm, where a small fire had taken place, "could possibly be his" although he denied ever having carried them over there or intended to burn down the neighbor's farm. He had put them in front of his house because they were empty.

No witnesses could substantiate the neighbors claim that James Christensen had anything to do with the small fire that erupted at his place on 15 February 2005. The small fire was quickly put out by the fire brigade and damages were estimated at 54.000 Baht.

James Christensen's advisors, including the Danish consul in Bangkok, had all told him that the acquittal in the case was a mere formality. Therefore he had not used the opportunity to flee Thailand that was opened to him when he was released on a bail a few weeks ago posted by the mayor in the little town after Danish daily BT had revealed the bizarre case. Fleeing Thailand would of course have been illegal, but James had planned to leave for Denmark anyway immiately after the expected acquittal. Instead he was put right back behind bars.

“He was shocked. We were surprised too, because we didn’t really think that there was any evidence to prove the accusations,” Ulrik Sorensen, who is head of Denmark’s consular affairs in Bangkok, has told the Danish news agency Ritzau.

44 year-old James Christensen now intends to appeal the verdict to a higher court of law, but it can easily be another year and a half before such an appeal will be treated. In the meantime, he may again be released on bail, but the amount might be higher this time, and it is not certain if James' sister in Denmark will be able to raise the new amount, estimated to be around 80.000 Danish kroner.

An Escalating Dispute Between Neighbors

James Christensen was arrested in February 2005, and shortly after he was charged with arson. The whole case started as a dispute between the Dane and his neighbor. James Christensen was feeding and taking in stray dogs at his rented house on a quiet street. As the cocks at a fighting cock farm 700 meters away started to disappear, James Christensen was blamed for not being able to control his dogs.

At first he agreed to pay compensation to the chicken farmer when ever a dead chickens were found in the area. The increasing amounts of money demanded by the farmer resulted in James Christensen filing a complaint with the local police. Then his dog started dying one by one by rat poison.

The fight peaked when the neighbor after the small fire at his farm reported the attempted arson to the police and the police consequently arrested James based on the neighbors accusations and the finding of gas tanks that might have belonged to James on the farm and footprints that they thought could match the tall Dane's.

No Bail Has Been Set

James Christensen was yesterday immediately after the sentencing moved back to his prison cell, and he will now wait for a chance to be released on bail. However, no bail has yet been set by the court, but the Danish Embassy’s head of consular affairs Ulrik Sorensen expects that it will be set at 500,000 Thai Baht (approx. 80,000 DKK). He does not wish to predict what chances James Christensen will have in a second trial.

"It is impossible to say. No one has seen him carry those gas tanks over to the chicken farm. I have no idea about how this will end," Ulrik Sorensen tells Ritzau.

Disputes with neighbours are always best avoided in any country, but here they should be avoided like the Plague! A farang can never win here, he is always in the wrong (and sometimes rightly so). In a group society like this one, there is never a shortage of witnesses to say that you did something that you did not do. Yet on the otherside of the coin rich murders walk free. Live and enjoy here, but remember you have virtually no rights whatsoever, when you forget that, then the trouble really starts! I hope that sensibile justice will prevail here!

[phibunmike]

sounds like country justice meted out to an unwanted and unpopular outsider 'deliverance" style.

It does indeed. We are not always "outsiders" here. Last week my house was burgled, and although the police cam and took fingerprints, shoe prints etc., it was local villagers who found out who were the culprits (a couple of 13 year-olds) and brought them to justice. Jusitice in their case was a village meeting, outside the the shop, where villagers gathered to lecture and humiliate the boys, other kids gathered to see how these "big tough boys" were not heroes after all. At the end they were made to kneel and apologise with a wai and a bunch of flowers (dork poot). Finally we were asked if we had had satisfaction, or did we want the boys taken to the police.

A long tale a bit off-topic, but the point is, if you are accepted in the community, you won't have the community ganging up against you. The unfortunate Dane must have really upset some of the locals...

[terry57]

it's a no brainer people,

dont tackle with the thais unless you got a <deleted> load of money to pay your way out of it when you lose.

cheers

[terry57]

sounds like country justice meted out to an unwanted and unpopular outsider 'deliverance" style.

It does indeed. We are not always "outsiders" here. Last week my house was burgled, and although the police cam and took fingerprints, shoe prints etc., it was local villagers who found out who were the culprits (a couple of 13 year-olds) and brought them to justice. Jusitice in their case was a village meeting, outside the the shop, where villagers gathered to lecture and humiliate the boys, other kids gathered to see how these "big tough boys" were not heroes after all. At the end they were made to kneel and apologise with a wai and a bunch of flowers (dork poot). Finally we were asked if we had had satisfaction, or did we want the boys taken to the police.

A long tale a bit off-topic, but the point is, if you are accepted in the community, you won't have the community ganging up against you. The unfortunate Dane must have really upset some of the locals...

a very good point you have raised here my friend and more than likely the scenario.

after living amoungst thai's myself i feel that your conclusion has a true ring to it.

cheers

[marquess]

sounds like country justice meted out to an unwanted and unpopular outsider 'deliverance" style.

It does indeed. We are not always "outsiders" here. Last week my house was burgled, and although the police cam and took fingerprints, shoe prints etc., it was local villagers who found out who were the culprits (a couple of 13 year-olds) and brought them to justice. Jusitice in their case was a village meeting, outside the the shop, where villagers gathered to lecture and humiliate the boys, other kids gathered to see how these "big tough boys" were not heroes after all. At the end they were made to kneel and apologise with a wai and a bunch of flowers (dork poot). Finally we were asked if we had had satisfaction, or did we want the boys taken to the police.

A long tale a bit off-topic, but the point is, if you are accepted in the community, you won't have the community ganging up against you. The unfortunate Dane must have really upset some of the locals...

The real problem here, was that money was involved, the Thai getting money from the farang. That is always an easy way to upset someone, or for someone to get upset!

[taxexile]

Help Get James Christensen Out Of Thai Prison!

Status: 188.100 Baht pledged and/or paid up!

And waiting... The court has not yet been able to provide the Royal Danish Embassy with the transcript of its verdict on 15 August. Without that, a lawyer cannot apeal the case.

And without an appeal, James Christensen cannot be bailed out. Meanwhile, help us prepare the funds for the bail. Read here how!

By Gregers Moller

Right now, the result of the collection of money to help pay the bail of the 44 year old Dane, James Christensen stands at 188.100 Baht (29.000 Dkk). The list below will be regularly updated. At this point, the money has been donated or pledged by :

20,000 Claus Feldborg 18-Aug

20,000 Gregers Moller 18-Aug

15,000 Weber Family 18-Aug

10,000 Claus Boman 18-Aug

10,000 Thomas Raldorf 18-Aug

10.000 Unknown 22-Aug

10,000 Stig Wetterstrom 24-Aug

10,000 Oskar Jorgensen 28-Aug

10,000 P-O Dofenfalck 28-Aug

5,000 Jorgen Englund 18-Aug

5,000 Alex Petersen 18-Aug

5,000 Ian - katamanda 19-Aug

5,000 Deepseadivers 19-Aug

5,000 Jorn 20-Aug

5,000 Suppanai & Mai Ellegaard 22-Aug

5,000 Johnny Jorgensen 23-Aug

5,000 John Svengren 24-Aug

5,000 Egil Mjolhus 24-Aug

5,000 Bruno Haman 28-Aug

3,000 Unknown 22-Aug

3,000 Finn Balslev 23-Aug

3,000 Per Lundsgaard 29-Aug

3,000 Else Johansen 30-Aug

2,600 Kent Sorensen 28-Aug

2,000 Bjarne Wildau 19-Aug

2.000 Maria Lofvenholm 21-Aug

2,000 anonymous 24-Aug

1,001 unknown 22-Aug

1,000 John S Hansen 30-Aug

500 unknown 22-Aug

How can you support:

- In Thailand, please transfer your amount to Thai Farmers Bank (Kasikornthai Bank), Lad Prao 25 Branch, Acc.no: 045 1 09311 8 - Account name: Scand-Media Corp., Ltd. ATM machines can be used. It must be an ATM machine of your own account. Select "transfer" and key in your amount.

- In Denmark, please transfer your amount to BG GiroBank, Acc.: 9543 - 5 15 60 92, SWIFT-BIC: DABADKKK - Account name: Scand-Media Corp., Ltd.

- If you have a MasterCard or VISA card (must be 'verified by visa'-activated), you can pay online via our K-Payment Gateway. To do this: Click here!

- In any case, especially with ATM payment, please fax a copy of the cheque or transfer slip to fax +662 943 7169 or email the details of your transaction to me, Gregers Moller at [email protected]

What else can you do?

If you are in a positon to offer legal services free of charge or at a reduced rate, please email me at [email protected] - this could also be authorized translation services or other special services or know how / know who.

[Steph1012]

It's great to see Thais supporting each other.

Viewers from Danemark.

The vast majority of Thais make fantastic neighbours, so I think something must have gone off there somewhere. Fighting cocks really are highly prized and an extension of a mans personallity and virility out here. Its just not like killing some old hen. This was a very serious situation from the first death of a bird and the dog should have been destroyed or tied up securely at all times. Like it or hate it, we have to show interest in and respect to these customs. They are part of Thai life and we, wanting to be part of it, must leave behind some of our ideals.

It soulds like a classic clash of a western animal lover meeting the stark reality of an old and valued Thai custom. So, please, whilst you make efforts to help your countryman, do not think badly of Thais or Thailand. It is the most beautifuly country in the world, with the friendliest people.

Unfortunately, only bad news is ever written about Thailand. If it doesn't involve sex, bars or ladyboys, the media are not interested. That is why he stayed rotting for so long. Had he been a blond girl like Natalie Holloway in Aruba or the Australian girls bringing drugs into Thailand, there would have be a different response from the media and this would have put pressure on the Embassy to respond.

Blame as well, the political correctness that pervades the western media, where every Thai woman is a whore and every white man, an inadequate loser deserving to loose all his money and respect. Nothing could be further from the truth and life here is wonderful, fulfilling and rewarding in ways we couldn't even imagine in our own countries. Not though 100% of the time.

Unfortunately, there are a few spotty University oiks like Thailble, who see his wealth (power) and manhood radically decreased by an influx of wealthier foreigners. Raging against the tide, they make sad comments like the one above, which, whilst on the face of it is a nice thing (Thais supporting each other), the inclusion of it into an adult debate marks him down for the sad loner he obviously is.

Hope you get the girl one day Thaiable... Have to raise the level of debate and become a man though first. Ask any woman... when you overcome your fear of them! And as it was an exclamation Thaible, you needed one of these !!!! on the end, not one of these... !

[Paraglider]

We (a geman family)live in Chumphon since over a year and never had any trouble with the people here.The opposite is the case and we feel spoiled of friends in this friendly town.Everybody smiles and waves at our little blond son where ever we are.We have also the most friendly landlord we ever met.She's is always suggesting,that we should stay here for ever.

Just through the circumstance that we treat the Thai's as we want to be treaten.We also had to learn our lessons and was at the beginning here very dependent to their tolerance for little mistakes,which was solved just by a smile and a khoo thod Khap.

This country was never occupied of a western force.The strong buddhistian influenced proud of the Thais is a very worthfull side of their society.

Easy to deal with:learn to think and feel as they feel,accept and respect this mentality,don't violate the law and stay allways! friendly.

My compassion to Mr. Christensens situation.I hope for the mercy and forgiving of the responsable judge in his case.

[terry57]

We (a geman family)live in Chumphon since over a year and never had any trouble with the people here.The opposite is the case and we feel spoiled of friends in this friendly town.Everybody smiles and waves at our little blond son where ever we are.We have also the most friendly landlord we ever met.She's is always suggesting,that we should stay here for ever.

Just through the circumstance that we treat the Thai's as we want to be treaten.We also had to learn our lessons and was at the beginning here very dependent to their tolerance for little mistakes,which was solved just by a smile and a khoo thod Khap.

This country was never occupied of a western force.The strong buddhistian influenced proud of the Thais is a very worthfull side of their society.

Easy to deal with:learn to think and feel as they feel,accept and respect this mentality,don't violate the law and stay allways! friendly.

My compassion to Mr. Christensens situation.I hope for the mercy and forgiving of the responsable judge in his case.

a very nice story,

being compassionate to the thai, give respect first to recieve respect latter, buddist principles come in to play and take the middle path.

not very hard people.

excellent post.

cheers friend

[Head Snake]

44 with a pension? I'd love that; but, now, all that is upside down.

"The prosecutors main evidence today was to bring forward shoes found in James Christensens house claiming they would fit footprints found at the scene of the crime and that they would fit James' feet. This was not the case.

The court will now deliberate whether James Christensen is guilty or not and announce its verdict on the 15. August. "

Well - there it is. Both evidence are circumstantial. The actual fire was small and not much damage. 15 years???? 10 years!!!!???

I don't think he should have spent a day in jail for that.

However, Are their leash laws? Why keep strays? Why keep animals you are responsible for and allow them to run free? Couple that with an escalating disagreement and perhaps a vindictive justice system and he shoulda left while out on bail.

I bet he stayed so he could keep his pension; fearing he could lose it in abstentia.

[taxexile]

We now have over 350.000 Baht (56,080 Dkk) to help pay the bail of the 44 year old Dane James Christensen. BUT... our first estimate that we need 400.000 baht was not correct. The bail is actually 800.00 Baht - so we need to find 450.000 baht more!

By Gregers Moller

As the preparation for the appeal case for James Christensen is in its final stages, the deadline for raising money for his bail so he can be released during those 2 - 3 years, which an appeal case may last, is moving closer.

It has come as a shocking news, that our initial estimate of 400.000 baht needed for securing his release was far from realistic. In fact, the court says we need 800.000 baht.

The latest count shows that we have over to 350.000 Baht (56,080 Dkk) which has been donated by a large number of kind people in order to help pay the bail of the 44 year old Dane James Christensen.

Now, we still need to find 450.000 Baht more (aprox. 71.000 kroner) to be able to help him out during the trial! But the amount does not have to be cash. If you have assets submissible as guarantee, please contact me to see if we can work something out.

Click Here To Help: http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?news...mp;coun_code=dk