Greek radical left wins election, threatening market turmoil

[watso63]

Nigel Farage talks a lot of sense, common sense on lots of subjects. Greece lied like a cheap Pattaya Rolex to get into the Euro Club Tropicana, but why weren't the proper checks into their finances made in the first place? Unelected left wing champagne socialist beurocrats with a "we know better than you" attitude imposing their airy fairy, costly rules and regulations at a whim. Greece is bust, they are never going to be able to pay their debts at historically normal interest rates, never mind the rest of the other European basket cases. Kharma is upon the EU.

[maidee]

today greece

next portugal, spain, italy, FRANCE

[Prbkk]

"Greecezuela" following the "Grexit" as one commentator put it

[keemapoot]

This new Greek coalition leadership will hold Germany & Eurozone hostage to a debt forgiveness deal. Who will blink first?

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[elgordo38]

Maybe a good thing as politicians the world over need to change they only care about their contributors and forget the voters,

What a laugh. The ex P.M. states " I had to hold live coals in my hands" What a hero give him a medal and a kiss on both cheeks as he heads for the door marked " Recycled Politicians" I find politico's of all stripes have only one goal. Appease the rich and stay in power long enough to get a big fat pension plus all you can grab under the table in and out of power.

[MikeOboe57]

Nigel Farage talks a lot of sense, common sense on lots of subjects. Greece lied like a cheap Pattaya Rolex to get into the Euro Club Tropicana, but why weren't the proper checks into their finances made in the first place? Unelected left wing champagne socialist beurocrats with a "we know better than you" attitude imposing their airy fairy, costly rules and regulations at a whim. Greece is bust, they are never going to be able to pay their debts at historically normal interest rates, never mind the rest of the other European basket cases. Kharma is upon the EU.

After receiving encouraging signals from the EU to join the Eurozone, Greece was looking for a way to meet the required minimum financial standards. The bankers of 'Goldman Sachs were willing to help them get across this hurdle, in particular the "budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product".

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics.

[...]

Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005. [...]

A lot of top politicians in the EU were feeling uneasy about that Greek "miracle", they rightfully sensed something was fishy, but the overall political desire to incorporate Greece in the Eurozone would stifle all doubts.

And the same bankers didn´t hesitate to screw the Greek population a second time when their creative accounting began to backfire and Greece descended into deep trouble.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/betting-on-default-hedge-funds-speculate-on-greek-debt-a-675196.html

[...] the dealers in CDS are betting that the Greek government won't be able to repay its debts and that the price of CDS [Credit Default Swaps] will therefore rise. The prices of credit default swaps on Greek sovereign debt have already reached astronomical levels, rising to a record high of 410 basis points last week, twice as high as in December. That means that investors who want to insure €10 million worth of Greek government debt against default for five years now have to pay around €400,000 a year. The equivalent hedging price for a German government bond amounts to just €35,000.

Both articles are from February 2010.

edit: typo

Edited January 26, 2015 by MikeOboe57

[joebrown]

The people who wrote the source article are radical facists.

Being against austerity is "radical"?

No. It's logical, smart and sensible.

It's only a theory that austerity creates prosperity.

1. Name one country, any time in history, where austerity led to prosperity. There are none.

2. Name one individual who's family has become prosperous by having their income cut. There are none.

It's only common sense that cutting your family's income is going to make you less prosperous, not more.

Facism is about dogma & ideology of inflicting pain and suffering on your "enemies", not facts. Or logic. Or common sense.

So, to sum up your various remarks, it's OK for anyone/country to go on a holiday paid for on credit and then renage on the debt saying we don't want to pay. What you suggest is a recipe for even greater disaster shared by the other EU members. IMHO Greece and sevearal other recent EU entrants should never have been allowed membership in the first place.

Quite so.

The sadistic element in Fascism is self-evident.

In Greece, you have that combined with paraphilic infantilism in the economic and social sphere.

I assume you mean 'paraphiliac?. I think you are saying common sense should prevail over sadistic paraphiliac infantilism, which I agree with. Your choice of words is rather a mouthful to me, being only a simple minded person who worked (pre-1997) for 30 years in UK banking. I doubt you will agree with me when I say that living way beyond one's means/income is nonsensical in the long run? Perhaps you would like to make a personal donation to the Greek Treasury coffers to help them out of their self inflicted crisis. I for one won't do so willingly, although I've little doubt HMG will eventually tax my pension a little more so that the Greeks can spend a lot more time in their village squares passing the time of day!!

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The EU was a disaster for most of Europe.

A fascist idea that allowed Germany to control the nations they failed to conquer by force.

Greece should tell the EU to stuff their loans and repayments where the sun don't shine and just walk away.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

So, to sum up your various remarks, it's OK for anyone/country to go on a holiday paid for on credit and then renage on the debt saying we don't want to pay. What you suggest is a recipe for even greater disaster shared by the other EU members. IMHO Greece and sevearal other recent EU entrants should never have been allowed membership in the first place.

Individuals are allowed to do that, so why not countries?

If you lend money to someone who can't (or won't) repay it, more fool you.

[zydeco]

To all you Germans on TVF: how do you about your country being the primary backer of this Greek fiasco? How do you feel about continuing to work like a field hand in order for Greeks to go on a semi-permanent vacation. You are paying their way, while they laze away their days in the sun, on a beach, with bottle of liquor under each arm. Were I a German, I would demand my country call in their loans and make that country of chiselers and cheats work for a living instead of living off other countries' credit cards.

[watso63]

Doing things the Greek way.

[ggold]

So how long before the rest of us in the failed club are asked to stump up billions more for countrys like Greece to carry on not paying any tax ,meanwhile us in Britain who live abroad still have our pensiones frozen to help pay for it.

Not really, If you lived in the EU your pension would not be frozen. It is frozen because you live in Thailand.

The reason, I have no idea about.

[SiSePuede419]

"living way beyond one's means/income is nonsensical in the long run?"

I agree with the London banker.

If Capitalism is based on "growth", nothing grows forever, except cancer (until it kills it's host).

The mere act of unregulated capitalism of taking more than it's giving back (to people and planet earth) *is* nonsensical.

Until we develop an economic system that is sustainable and gives back more than it takes (like nitrogen-fixing legumes), we're doomed.

The solution is to emulate Nature, not to conquer and destroy it...

[i claudius]

So how long before the rest of us in the failed club are asked to stump up billions more for countrys like Greece to carry on not paying any tax ,meanwhile us in Britain who live abroad still have our pensiones frozen to help pay for it.

Not really, If you lived in the EU your pension would not be frozen. It is frozen because you live in Thailand.

The reason, I have no idea about.

The reason pensiones were frozen in the first place was because only the very rich could retire abroad ,those days have long gone ,but they still will not upgrade pensiones for many of us remember it was Blair and the Labour govt when in power faught tooth and nail right up to the court of human rights to NOT pay us ,aided and abbeted by the E.U crowd.(as long as they kept theirs)

[Steely Dan]

The people who wrote the source article are radical facists.

Being against austerity is "radical"?

No. It's logical, smart and sensible.

It's only a theory that austerity creates prosperity.

1. Name one country, any time in history, where austerity led to prosperity. There are none.

2. Name one individual who's family has become prosperous by having their income cut. There are none.

It's only common sense that cutting your family's income is going to make you less prosperous, not more.

Facism is about dogma & ideology of inflicting pain and suffering on your "enemies", not facts. Or logic. Or common sense.

I may disagree with you regarding austerity, however this is all besides the point compared to the larger principle of self-determination based on the democratic will of the people. Hopefully the Euro will unravel from here and with any luck take the unelected Eurocrats down with it.

[khunken]

I'm not a fan of the racist Falage but he is right about the EU driving Greece into the ground. There is a limit to how much ordinary people can take, and the Greeks have shown that it's just too much. There is no doubt that Greece deserves to be in the EU but the fiddles - pointed out by Mikeoboe57 - to get them into the Euro have now come back to bite those who wanted Greece to make up the numbers.

I hope the new government pulls Greece out of the Euro zone and tells it's lenders that if they want the chains-attached loans to be repaid they'd better talk single digit percentages.

[rickirs]

Tsipras wants debt forgiveness of the 240 billion-euro ($270 billion) bailout and a new loan from the EU for additional capital.

"I can't pay off my $100 loan to you, so forgive it and lend me another $100 on better terms."

Who thought Thainess would spread to the cradle of democracy?

[JockPieandBeans]

Party leader Alexis Tsipras has struck a coalition deal with the right-wing Nationalist Independent Greeks party which, like Syriza, opposes Greece's tough international bailout deal.

"From this moment there is a government in the country," Nationalist Independent Greeks leader Panos Kammenos said after talks with Mr Tsipras at Syriza's headquarters in Athens.

http://news.sky.com/story/1414845/greeces-syriza-forms-anti-bailout-coalition

A Government in this Country, rather than EU puppets.

I hope that this newly formed Government is the catalyst for the destruction of the house of Ponzi.

[watso63]

I'm not a fan of the racist Falage but he is right about the EU driving Greece into the ground. There is a limit to how much ordinary people can take, and the Greeks have shown that it's just too much. There is no doubt that Greece deserves to be in the EU but the fiddles - pointed out by Mikeoboe57 - to get them into the Euro have now come back to bite those who wanted Greece to make up the numbers.

I hope the new government pulls Greece out of the Euro zone and tells it's lenders that if they want the chains-attached loans to be repaid they'd better talk single digit percentages.

Farage isn't racist. He stands for the British people that have been ignored by the political elite in Westminster and dictated to by unelected morons that ride the gravy train between Brussells and Strasbourg. Edited January 26, 2015 by watso63

[teatree]

What sucks about all of this is that Greece cheated, lied and committed fraud to become a part of the Euro and now they are threatening to destabilize it.

Greece lied, for sure.

But come on, the EU knew what they were getting. They are just as culpable.

[StevieH]

I'm not a fan of the racist Falage but he is right about the EU driving Greece into the ground. There is a limit to how much ordinary people can take, and the Greeks have shown that it's just too much. There is no doubt that Greece deserves to be in the EU but the fiddles - pointed out by Mikeoboe57 - to get them into the Euro have now come back to bite those who wanted Greece to make up the numbers.

I hope the new government pulls Greece out of the Euro zone and tells it's lenders that if they want the chains-attached loans to be repaid they'd better talk single digit percentages.

Farage isn't racist. He stands for the British people that have been ignored by the political elite in Westminster and dictated to by unelected morons that ride the gravy train between Brussells and Strasbourg.

no he doesn't. i am one of the british people who has been ignored by the political elite in westminster and that xenophobic prick farage doesn't represent anything to do with me thanks.

though it's quite amusing you citing a privately-educated former city banker whose party wants to destroy the NHS as representative of the average working brit. he is one of the bloody political elite. not to mention a massive hypocrite who wants to kick foreigners out of the UK while being married to a german woman and who rails against foreigners taking british jobs while employing her as his secretary. he's an appalling, laughable figure.

But he is a public school-educated former banker

[Lissos]

After spending a fair bit of time in Greece last year, I managed to get a more direct 'human' take on things than from whenever I would watch news and feel increasingly irritated every time by this 'thing' down south that periodically receives unimaginable amounts of wider Europe's cash, wanting more and more of it without really intending to pay it back. I now fully understand 'why' the Greeks have voted as they have, but it doesn't really diminish underlying frustration about the entire arrangement because Europeans elsewhere have just as much right to be furious about any attempt by this new Greek Government to wipe the slate clean. Let Greece of scot free and all the rest of us are going to end up paying off that debt, and we know it.

[Trouble]

Seems to me if the Greeks decide to neglect their debt obligations, the EU should refuse further loans, should refuse to write off the debt, kick Greece out of the EU, and further place an embargo on all trade with them. That should remain until they agree to pay back the debt. There is a big problem with the way countries around the world are loaned money which everyone understands can't be paid back. It is like a credit card company continuing to extend credit because they can charge higher interest rates from other users who end up footing the cost.

[MrWorldwide]

Isn't Germany responsible for allowing Greece and others into the Eurozone even though they allegedly knew Greece's books were cooked ? I readily admit that I got that from the tabloid media along with the claim that Germany tried to exert economic influence over countries where it had no political control and was forced to pay the price for that when the PIGS / PIIGS fiasco became public knowledge.

It would seem that this is one 'gift' the world doesnt need from our Greek friends. Hopefully the EU bigwigs will do their homework before confronting the Greek leaders on this issue - the new guys seem to have a bit of the old defiance running through their veins.

[nycjoe]

Everything is made in countries where people are paid next to nothing. With little health care and little pension if any. Yet the costs of these products are high in western countries and controlled by major labels. "Free" trade will turn many countries into third world countries. Greece Spain Portugal and Italy are dominos in a system based on greed. Grow your own food and barter as much as you can. Don't be a consumer. Want what you already have.

[MrWorldwide]

Doing things the Greek way.

Thanks for that - 30 billion EUR a year in lost tax revenue and they've got a single office with guys taking phone calls from people willing to dob in cheats ?? It would seem that instead of pumping more money into enforcement, the previous government just kept borrowing to make up their shortfall each year - insane. I cant see how dumping the Euro is going to help this country - you know you're in trouble when you start blaming a church which is feeding the poor for your woes. Those vids are from 2011 - many were already clamoring for a return to the drachma, but their logic was interesting IMO. Apparently when they go themselves into trouble with the weaker currency, they could simply devalue it to make Greek exports more attractive - somehow I dont see Greece needing to devalue the 'new drachma', that process should take care of itself. Interesting times ahead.

[Steely Dan]

Doing things the Greek way.

Thanks for that - 30 billion EUR a year in lost tax revenue and they've got a single office with guys taking phone calls from people willing to dob in cheats ?? It would seem that instead of pumping more money into enforcement, the previous government just kept borrowing to make up their shortfall each year - insane. I cant see how dumping the Euro is going to help this country - you know you're in trouble when you start blaming a church which is feeding the poor for your woes. Those vids are from 2011 - many were already clamoring for a return to the drachma, but their logic was interesting IMO. Apparently when they go themselves into trouble with the weaker currency, they could simply devalue it to make Greek exports more attractive - somehow I dont see Greece needing to devalue the 'new drachma', that process should take care of itself. Interesting times ahead.

If Greece tells its creditors to go to hell it will ruin its credit rating - this is actually a good thing. The markets will devalue the Drachma and the Greek government will have to make its books balance through (drum roll) austerity measures. This would however be austerity on the road to self-determination, as oppose to austerity born of serfdom to the EU. Eventually the books will balance, tourists flock in, exports flood out, then comes a surplus followed by offers of external credit. I doubt they will make the same mistake as surrendering sovereignty a second time though.

[Mosha]

How long can the new government last? According to the BBC the only thing they agree on is ending austerity.

[watso63]

I'm not a fan of the racist Falage but he is right about the EU driving Greece into the ground. There is a limit to how much ordinary people can take, and the Greeks have shown that it's just too much. There is no doubt that Greece deserves to be in the EU but the fiddles - pointed out by Mikeoboe57 - to get them into the Euro have now come back to bite those who wanted Greece to make up the numbers.

I hope the new government pulls Greece out of the Euro zone and tells it's lenders that if they want the chains-attached loans to be repaid they'd better talk single digit percentages.

Farage isn't racist. He stands for the British people that have been ignored by the political elite in Westminster and dictated to by unelected morons that ride the gravy train between Brussells and Strasbourg.

no he doesn't. i am one of the british people who has been ignored by the political elite in westminster and that xenophobic prick farage doesn't represent anything to do with me thanks.

though it's quite amusing you citing a privately-educated former city banker whose party wants to destroy the NHS as representative of the average working brit. he is one of the bloody political elite. not to mention a massive hypocrite who wants to kick foreigners out of the UK while being married to a german woman and who rails against foreigners taking british jobs while employing her as his secretary. he's an appalling, laughable figure.

But he is a public school-educated former banker

Obviously not a fan of Farage 555.

A Millibland supporter?

A supporter of the Labour party that took us into an illegal war and signed the Lisbon treaty in secrecy, then were kicked out of office after leaving the country financially crippled?

Yeah blame the evil bankers it's all their fault.

The Labour government stood idly by, whilst Gordon "no more boom and bust" Brown sang their praises and splashed the cash with his policies of bribes for votes to the bone idle.

What happened to personal responsibility? The bankers didn't twist the arms of people to borrow more than they could afford to pay back.

The same goes for Greece and now the left wing are back in power they want to write off their debts and borrow more.

Of course Farage doesn't speak for everyone, but who does? Why should it matter where he was educated or what job he did? Besides he was never a "banker". To accuse him of being a xenophobe is a typical left wing pathetic insult. He wants managed immigration, what's wrong with that?

Pah, I dump on your bitter and twisted philosophy!

Edited January 27, 2015 by watso63

[JAG]

What a wonderfully pythonesque final phrase in that last post!