Israel violated rules of war in strikes on Gaza homes: group

[webfact]

Israel violated rules of war in strikes on Gaza homes: group
KARIN LAUB, Associated Press

JERUSALEM (AP) — A majority of Palestinians killed in dozens of Israeli attacks on Gaza homes in the 2014 war with Hamas were women, minors or elderly people, and some of the strikes violated the rules of war, an Israeli rights group said Wednesday.

The B'Tselem group called strikes on homes "one of the appalling hallmarks of the fighting" and said they were part of a policy approved at the top levels of the government and the military.

"There is no question in our minds that this is not the outcome of a low-level decision, but rather a matter of policy, a policy that in some cases has violated international humanitarian law, in other cases raises severe questions" about legality of the policy, said the group's director, Hagai El-Ad. "So far, there have not been explanations, convincing explanations, by the government of the state of Israel."

Israeli government officials referred requests for comment to the Israeli military which had no immediate response. The military has said in the past it complied with the rules of combat in the attacks on houses.

Israel fought the war to halt rocket fire from Gaza.

During the fighting, Israel launched about 5,000 airstrikes and unleashed thousands of artillery at Gaza, while Gaza militants fired about 4,300 rockets and mortar rounds at Israel. More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians, according to U.N. figures. Sixty-seven soldiers and five civilians were killed on the Israeli side.

As part of the fighting, Israel attacked dozens of Gaza homes, claiming they were being used as military command centers or for storing weapons. In most cases, the military refused to say exactly who or what was targeted.

B'Tselem looked at 70 strikes in which at least three people at been killed — a portion of the overall total of attacks. More than 70 percent of 606 Palestinians killed in these 70 strikes were minors, women and older men, the group said.

Another Israeli group, NGO Monitor, said the count was skewed by underreporting deaths of combatants.

International law experts say even a high civilian death toll does not, on its own, constitute evidence of war crimes, and that each case has to be examined separately.

Under the rules of warfare, homes can be attacked if they are used for military purposes. Civilian deaths must be proportionate to the military advantage gained from an attack, but there is no precise formula.

B'Tselem said Israel adopted an overly broad interpretation of what may be considered a military target and subverted the principle of proportionality, resulting in an unlawful policy.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-01-28

[ezzra]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

[DeaconJohn]

The term "Gaza Massacre" is coming into the lexicon.

[humqdpf]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

Can you tell me one item that a Palestinian living in Gaza could put forward in favour of Israel? Honestly?

And who created the environment for Hamas? After the humiliation of Arafat and the complete destruction of PLO, the people turned to the only folks who were in a position to defend them. In times like that, you don't get to choose the ethics of your rulers or even to choose your rulers. You just support those who can stand up to your enemies.

[Baerboxer]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

That's because Israel is a democracy with a real justice and law enforcement system.

Now, can you name one Moslem country that is also a democracy with a real justice and law enforcement system?

[Choctastic]

The 'checks and balances' work well.

[johna]

The 'checks and balances' work well.

not for 1500+ Palestinians

[mania]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

Actually I just finished watching a good report of this on the news.

The speaker ..a Israeli woman who was a s[spokesperson of the Human Rights Group that did the report

continually reminded that yes...Hama does wrong & is themselves in violation of many laws regarding war.

But...the point she kept coming back to was that this in itself does not give Israel license

to act illegally in return.

That Israel has groups willing to point out they are acting illegally/wrongfully should not be cheapened with

statements such as "See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in"

Because for one thing it is a check ..of sorts...but not a balance. There more than likely will be no further result

from this whistle blowing. But credit due to this Israeli group willing to speak up.

Edited January 28, 2015 by mania

[Morch]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

B'Tselem are in no fifth column. Many members are IDF veterans.

Pointing out to wrongs done by the Israeli government and armed forces is not betrayal.

There is a wide range of views across the Israeli public, and current government narrative is not the only one out there.

B'Tselem is an NGO, not a government agency, and it does not have any ways to apply its findings other than to publish them, and at times, takes things to court. Note that they couldn't even get an official response, so not sure how checks and balances figure into this.

That said - B'Tselem is not without faults. For one thing, activists do have a "go-get-them" attitude, and are less skeptic of certain claims than they ought to be. Furthermore, there were cases in the past when their figures and conclusions were found lacking.

With regard to similar organizations not being well established among the Palestinians (or in the Arab countries, in general) this is a fact. But then again, most of them are not democratic to begin with, and the activity of such organizations is often strictly curbed.

It is important for any country to have independent bodies investigating government actions and policies, even if one may not care much for a specific one, its agenda and its findings. Automatically labeling any differing voices as traitors is plain wrong.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Morch

[Morch]

See? Israel has it's own check and balances system built in, albeit being a fifth column

type of people.... where are the Palestinians one? try to speak in favor of Israel being

a Palestinian and start digging your grave, will not be long before you'll die,, and that is

one of the differences between the Arab and Israelis...

Can you tell me one item that a Palestinian living in Gaza could put forward in favour of Israel? Honestly?

And who created the environment for Hamas? After the humiliation of Arafat and the complete destruction of PLO, the people turned to the only folks who were in a position to defend them. In times like that, you don't get to choose the ethics of your rulers or even to choose your rulers. You just support those who can stand up to your enemies.

It is not so much a question of putting something forward in favor of Israel. For example, B'Tselem is not supporting Hamas or saying that what Hamas does is right, quite the opposite. Rather, the onus of its efforts is on critical (and some would perhaps say, over-critical) monitoring of Israeli actions. The issue is more to do with no real equivalent existing on the Palestinian side, monitoring Hamas, lets say.

People may shift their alliances, switch support to those who claim to protect them. Its been a while since Hamas's ascent in the Gaza Strip - how did things pan out for the Gazans since then? Do they really have an option to take their support elsewhere nowadays?

[wabothai]

So, and what are we going to do about it? Sanctions? I doubt it. They don't care what we think.

Only if the US stops sending money there. Won't happen either.

[Morch]

So, and what are we going to do about it? Sanctions? I doubt it. They don't care what we think.

Only if the US stops sending money there. Won't happen either.

Do you believe that international sanctions and cutting off Aid should be done based on a partial report by an NGO?

[ggt]

What "rules of war"...try to tell Hamas or ISIS...tell them that they have violated the "rules of war"...or how about Russia, US and Chinese...all guilty of crimes against humanity...where is the hue and cry for justice against these countries atrocities...?

[Morch]

What "rules of war"...try to tell Hamas or ISIS...tell them that they have violated the "rules of war"...or how about Russia, US and Chinese...all guilty of crimes against humanity...where is the hue and cry for justice against these countries atrocities...?

The report specifically states that Hamas violated rules as well. Their point being that this does not constitute a free pass for Israel to do the same. This NGO focuses on the actions of the IDF, not taking on all the wrongs committed through global warfare.

[tullynagardy]

That's because Israel is a democracy with a real justice and law enforcement system.

A democracy where Jews are a minority in the land they occupy yet still administer total control http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/the-jewish-majority-is-history.premium-1.470233

A democracy with over 50 discrimatory laws over the native population http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

A democracy that murdered 2000 civilians in the space of 50 days last year on the basis of where they lived http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-7-in-10-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-were-civilians-israel-disagrees/2014/08/29/44edc598-2faa-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

Glad to see it isn`t only Thailand where your understanding of democracy is flawed.

[OZEMADE]

Syrians now having a go at Israel, hate to see what happens if Israel gets backed into a corner, bearing in mind they have a few big bombs on board.

Jerusalem (AFP) - Israeli warplanes struck Syrian army targets on the Golan Heights early Wednesday hours after rockets hit the Israeli-held sector, in what the Jewish state said was "a clear message" to Damascus.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/26128570/israel-air-force-hits-syrian-army-after-golan-rocket-fire/

[Johpa]

crazys in Palestine shoot stone age rockets most of which land harmlessly in the desert..one Israeli is killed

And how many "stone age rockets" would you accept, how many deaths would you accept, before you would respond in force if it was your child or family in potential danger of being killed by said stone age rocket?

[sential]

crazys in Palestine shoot stone age rockets most of which land harmlessly in the desert..one Israeli is killed

And how many "stone age rockets" would you accept, how many deaths would you accept, before you would respond in force if it was your child or family in potential danger of being killed by said stone age rocket?

Not sure whats in that bottle for your avatar, but you obviously drink too much of it. But eh, as long as you can justify the state murder of innocent children in your pickled head, good luck to you

[Seastallion]

crazys in Palestine shoot stone age rockets most of which land harmlessly in the desert..one Israeli is killed

Israel goes into Gaza and kills 2000 people,500 being children

i would like to add more but as its h******x week i will abstain

Carefull......mind you quote real figures; That 500 children you mentioned was actually 496, and your casual rounding will send cries of "LIAR!!!" towards you, and with it the implied total collapse of your points, and the further implied "Glorious Israel is fighting the noble fight, simply defending itself".

[Johpa]

crazys in Palestine shoot stone age rockets most of which land harmlessly in the desert..one Israeli is killed

And how many "stone age rockets" would you accept, how many deaths would you accept, before you would respond in force if it was your child or family in potential danger of being killed by said stone age rocket?

Not sure whats in that bottle for your avatar, but you obviously drink too much of it. But eh, as long as you can justify the state murder of innocent children in your pickled head, good luck to you

I do not justify the heavy-handedness of the Israeli response but neither do I believe in the ridiculous oxymoronic argument of "stone age rockets" being harmless; nor do I deny the shared culpability of the deaths of the children between both Hamas and Israel. There is blame to be shared and perhaps you should try a little Thai whiskey to clear your head of your myopic political correctness as the modest consumption by myself has not seemed to have harmed my critical capacity to think clearly.

[Morch]

That's because Israel is a democracy with a real justice and law enforcement system.

A democracy where Jews are a minority in the land they occupy yet still administer total control http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/the-jewish-majority-is-history.premium-1.470233

A democracy with over 50 discrimatory laws over the native population http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

A democracy that murdered 2000 civilians in the space of 50 days last year on the basis of where they lived http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-7-in-10-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-were-civilians-israel-disagrees/2014/08/29/44edc598-2faa-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

Glad to see it isn`t only Thailand where your understanding of democracy is flawed.

The first link was thoroughly debunked at the time. A bit hard to follow, but in essence, the main tenant of The main argument rested on one line, quoted out of context from another news source, which in turn was reporting about something quite different.

Not one of Eldar's finest hours. As usual, by the time things were made a bit clearer, the English version of the article made the rounds and got quoted onwards. Such is life.

With all due respect to rehashing Adalah's claims (which have been discussed on these topics many times) - it is worth pointing out that it is a partisan organization, not necessarily the most objective one. There is no denying that there is a known measure of discrimination toward Arabs in Israel, that much is true. Some of it can be detected in the legal system, most of it is of a more informal nature. If that's to say Israel is far from perfect - indeed. Blowing it out of proportions as to cry Apartheid would be over the top.

Not all of the 2000 Palestinian casualties cited for the Gaza fighting were civilians. That's a fallacy often repeated, but not true. As even Palestinian and UN sources (well, that's sort of the same thing, really) concur - there were many militants on those lists as well. It does not condone the death of civilians (and especially children), but there is no need to twist facts - got enough to bash Israel with even without it. The casualties in Gaza were not killed "on the basis of where they lived" - this is simply taking the whole situation out of context. Interestingly, there are no issues raised in your post with regards to Hamas endangering its own civilians by conducting military actions against Israel from amongst them. Might pay to read the OP again and perhaps get a better understanding of how international law considers such instances of warfare - not really as intuitive as it seems. Just to make things clear - is any country engaged in warfare which results in massive civilian casualties automatically ceases to be democratic?

[Morch]

crazys in Palestine shoot stone age rockets most of which land harmlessly in the desert..one Israeli is killed

Israel goes into Gaza and kills 2000 people,500 being children

i would like to add more but as its h******x week i will abstain

Carefull......mind you quote real figures; That 500 children you mentioned was actually 496, and your casual rounding will send cries of "LIAR!!!" towards you, and with it the implied total collapse of your points, and the further implied "Glorious Israel is fighting the noble fight, simply defending itself".

I think such criticism is usually reserved for inaccuracies on the level noted in the posts above - such as decreeing all casualties as civilian, or to gross inaccuracies in terms of figures. Cannot offhand recall that someone made a claim resembling such as described in your post.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't give it a lot of thought - just the usual phony straw man arguments of the Israel haters.

[midas]

Don't give it a lot of thought - just the usual phony straw man arguments of the Israel haters.

Why do you label people that fundamentally disagree with Israel's policies and some of the things they do as Israel haters?

For example why does the mere act of expressing horror and disagreement at the disproportionate use of force used by Israel against Palestine automatically equate to hating Israel in your mind?

Edited January 29, 2015 by midas

[Ulysses G.]

Don't give it a lot of thought - just the usual phony straw man arguments of the Israel haters.

Why do you label people that fundamentally disagree with Israel's policies and some of the things they do as Israel haters?

Because so many of them are. Otherwise, they would not have so many positions based on complete lies. Haters could care less that they are repeating fabrications as long as it causes problems for whoever they want to hurt. I put clueless Kool-Aid drinkers, that parrot false propaganda without verifying it, right in the same boat.

[phrodan]

Don't give it a lot of thought - just the usual phony straw man arguments of the Israel haters.

Why do you label people that fundamentally disagree with Israel's policies and some of the things they do as Israel haters?

Because so many of them are. Otherwise, they would not have so many positions based on complete lies. Haters could care less that they are repeating fabrications as long as it causes problems for whoever they want to hurt. I put clueless Kool-Aid drinkers, that parrot false propaganda without verifying it, right in the same boat.

No - it's merely the way you reduce the argument to fit your blinkered vision. No middle ground. Palestinians Bad, Israelis Good.

I bet your the kind of guy that thinks people in Gaza deserve all they get cos they voted in Hamas. Even though the majority didn't.

Correct?

[Ulysses G.]

You know nothing about me, but that does not stop you from pretending you do.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

—Matthew 7:1-5

[Ulysses G.]

I bet your the kind of guy that thinks people in Gaza deserve all they get cos they voted in Hamas. Even though the majority didn't.

A rather foolish talking point. Hamas got more votes than anyone else and Fatah got most of the rest. They are not as bad as Hamas, but not much better. They have recently supported terrorist attacks on a number of occasions.

[SiSePuede419]

You can't call Israelis war criminals. That would be Anti-Semetic, 555.

Yes, I know Palestinians are also Semetic.

Edited January 29, 2015 by SiSePuede419

[Ulysses G.]

Palestinians speak a semitic language - Arabic. The term anti-Semitic only applies to Jews.