New report puts Israel firmly in the dock

[Ulysses G.]

Also please let me know your opinion of the fact that Palestinians are HATED by EVERY arab nation, and why the Palestinians were rejected by the lot of them since 1947....

Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. They are despised by other Arabs and simply used as pawns against Israel.

[PepperMe]

Also please let me know your opinion of the fact that Palestinians are HATED by EVERY arab nation, and why the Palestinians were rejected by the lot of them since 1947....

Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. They are despised by other Arabs and simply used as pawns against Israel.

Absolutely right. I don't blame them either, not after the trouble the PLO caused in Jordan and Lebanon.

[bigjules007]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, go to you tube and type in "The Gatekeepers" great film narrated by the perpetrators themselves.

Edited January 30, 2015 by bigjules007

[PepperMe]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, go to you tube and type in "The Gatekeepers" great film narrated by the perpetrators themselves.

No.... Because I only work with facts..... not fiction and insane conspiracies that completely ignore obtainable factual history.

That stuff is for the lower intelligentsia of the human species.

[JoePai]

British General Richard Kemp on Operation Protective Edge:

“Israeli forces have taken greater steps than anyone else in the history of warfare to save the lives of innocent civilians.” “If civilians are accidently killed, it’s not a war crime. The IDF has even gone further than the Geneva Convention… In one particular incident, 17 missions were aborted to save innocent civilians and in the end, they gave up on the mission.”

“I’d like to ask the world, what would Great Britain do if they were in a similar situation? I can tell you what Britain would do and did in 1943, when Nazis sent unguided missiles at British cities. We immediately sent a bombardment and dropped 600 aircrafts full of explosives. 763 civilians died. The most important concern was for British civilians,”

Sorry can't believe anything he says re. Israel - suggest you check him out before believing any of the nonsense he spouts.

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry can't believe anything he says re. Israel - suggest you check him out before believing any of the nonsense he spouts.

Have checked him out already. He is a highly respected military leader with lost of experience in the Middle East. You are the one spouting nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kemp

[JoePai]

Sorry can't believe anything he says re. Israel - suggest you check him out before believing any of the nonsense he spouts.

Have checked him out already. He is a highly respected military leader with lost of experience in the Middle East. You are the one spouting nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kemp

Sorry it is you who is spouting nonsense as you try and defend the Israelis :

But recent reports suggest former Colonel Richard Kemp is also a religious fundamentalist motivated in his ideological support for Israel by a hard-line Christian Zionism.

[Ulysses G.]

"Recent reports" by some nutjob on his personal blog. Who do you think that you are fooling?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Also please let me know your opinion of the fact that Palestinians are HATED by EVERY arab nation, and why the Palestinians were rejected by the lot of them since 1947....

Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. They are despised by other Arabs and simply used as pawns against Israel.

Absolutely right. I don't blame them either, not after the trouble the PLO caused in Jordan and Lebanon.

But all that is besides the point for the faux humanitarian Israel haters and enablers of radical Islam. A dead Palestinian has no currency whatsoever if it can't be pinned on Israel, hence total radar silence when Palestinians are slaughtered in Syria or the Lebanon, or indeed by Egypt.

[Steely Dan]

"Recent reports" by some nutjob on his personal blog. Who do you think that you are fooling?

I like the phrase 'Christian Zionism' a tawdry piece of shit throwing from those dishonest enough to tar every non-Jew who stands up for Israel as some religious crackpot.

[Jingthing]

I find this item from the OP hilarious as it says so much more about typical THAI MENTALITY than anything about ISRAEL:

In conflict there is no surprise in being criticised by opposition forces, but being slammed by your own kind can come as a shock.

Does this unsophisticated writer not realize that in liberal western democracies internal criticism from within your own country even on matters of WAR, free press, free speech, etc. is a key element of culture? It is anything but a "shock" for Jews in Israel or outside Israel to criticize Israeli government policies. It would be a SHOCK if that didn't happen. I continue to be amazed at at low level of international analysis coming out of the Thai English language press. I'm almost embarrassed for them.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Jingthing

[Morch]

I wondered how long it would be before the words nazi and holocaust entered the discussion.

Now we will have all the cutting and pasting plus video.

I wonder if you pay attention to what is being posted and by whom....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/796036-new-report-puts-israel-firmly-in-the-dock/?p=9005194

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/796036-new-report-puts-israel-firmly-in-the-dock/?p=9005250

Sure you had a point there somewhere.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Morch

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to conspiracy site has been removed as well as the replies. Other posts containing off topic videos have been removed as well .

[Morch]

Disproportionate response and the use of military towards civil disobedience has been standard procedure for the right wing governments for a long time.

Human life means nothing to them unless it is one of their own.

B'Tselem represent some of the many decent reasonable people of Israel.

Launching rockets is civil disobedience nowadays?

Did non-right-wing Israeli governments refrain from applying military force against the Palestinians?

Do Palestinians show much care for human life? Even their own?

[Morch]

Funny how these reports start to come out just before the elections and just as opposition starts to appoint or invite new members for the job.

Not that common sense would prevail as Arab and Co on this forum would demonise Israel at any chance given, but for anyone with common sense and logic makes you wonder where this activists were a year ago? And year before that? And year before that.

This report will not have much effect on the Israeli election result, one way or another. B'Tselem's publications mainly effect the international public opinion, Israelis are mostly entrenched in their positions when it comes to this. Generally speaking - right wing voters will dismiss the report and see the authors as backstabbers, left wing voters will obviously have a different take on this. As for those undecided or belonging to the elusive "center", a bit more likely to lean right when it comes to the report. Almost no one will change his vote just as a result of the report's publication.

B'Tselem publishes reports all the time, some make more headlines than others. This is not some ad-hoc effort. One year ago was before the last Gaza fighting so obviously they couldn't have written the report at the time. They were, however, publishing others - most can be found on their website. Same goes for previous years.

[Jay Sata]

Disproportionate response and the use of military towards civil disobedience has been standard procedure for the right wing governments for a long time.

Human life means nothing to them unless it is one of their own.

B'Tselem represent some of the many decent reasonable people of Israel.

Launching rockets is civil disobedience nowadays?

Did non-right-wing Israeli governments refrain from applying military force against the Palestinians?

Do Palestinians show much care for human life? Even their own?

I am not sure what planet you are on but the so called rockets from Hamas are little more than glorified fireworks compared the high tech ballistic guided stuff aimed at the Palestinian civilian populations housing.

The IDF know exactly to the inch what they are going to hit and the risks of killing innocent people.

The kids who were killed on the beach by the Israeli navy are a prime example of war crimes.

As for the constant use of the the holocaust as some means of generating sympathy or reason for Israel to do what it want let me remind all who use that word that probably 25% were non Jewish gypsies,gays,lesbians,people with mental problems and disabled amongst others.

The numbers are irrelevant. Six million is the figure often used but what about the two million Cambodians killed by Pol Pot? They were brutally hacked to death with picks and shovels and often buried alive.

Every life is valuable but sadly those in the right wing government of Israel do not see it that way.

This discussion is about the killing of innocent people by a highly mechanised army.

[willyumiii]

I have no problem with Jews.

To be honest, I do not care for any organized religion and care even less who think they have a right to kill others, ( this includes Christians), but know we must tolerate all people with invisible friends.

But, as a country, Israel is out of control and has been for a long time.

As a country, not a race or religion, they need to be stopped and put in their place.

Because of unjustified support from my country ( USA ) they seem to believe they are exempt from all rules and control.

Maybe they are correct, they have been getting away with criminal acts for decades with no accountability.

It is high time those who support this barbaric regime back off and teach them they are no different than every other country and expected to live in a civilized manor like every other country.

I know they have been mistreated through out history and treated really horrifically by Germany in WWII.

I know it is way too late, but I think many of today's problems would have been avoided if they had been awarded part or even all of Germany as a homeland after Germany's defeat in WWII.

They may have prefered the little chunk of desert that is considered a holly land for three conflicting religions ( who all worship the same god ), but if offered a large, fertile land with a comfortable climate, or nothing...I do not think they would have rejected the offer.

After all, it was Germany who slaughtered six million Jews in WWII, not the Palestinians!

[Morch]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, go to you tube and type in "The Gatekeepers" great film narrated by the perpetrators themselves.

No.... Because I only work with facts..... not fiction and insane conspiracies that completely ignore obtainable factual history.

That stuff is for the lower intelligentsia of the human species.

My guess is that you do not know what "The Gatekeepers" is about, and that the poster you replied to got some issues with selective viewing in regards to this documentary.

Regardless, it is a very good documentary, even if its overall message is bleak. Not fiction and no conspiracy theories - a series of interviews with former heads of Israel's security service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_%28film%29

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/

[Ulysses G.]

Disproportionate response and the use of military towards civil disobedience has been standard procedure for the right wing governments for a long time.

Launching rockets is civil disobedience nowadays?

Did non-right-wing Israeli governments refrain from applying military force against the Palestinians?

Do Palestinians show much care for human life? Even their own?

I am not sure what planet you are on but the so called rockets from Hamas are little more than glorified fireworks compared the high tech ballistic guided stuff aimed at the Palestinian civilian populations housing.

I guess your point is that the Hamas rockets maim, kill and cause mayhem, but the Israelis have superior weapons and always pay them back. It seems pretty stupid to fire those rockets and give a much superior foe good reason to respond, but that is why the Palestinians are in the dismal situation that they are in.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

The point I am making is the Hamas rockets are aimed at sparsely populated areas and are not controlled devices.

The high tech IDF stuff can hit the centre of a building and reduce it to rubble along with occupants.

The numbers who died in the last onslaught on unarmed civilians speak for themselves.

No amount of filibuster is going to change world opinion or what is seen in newspapers and on tv news.

The majority of Israeli casualties were soldiers and on the Palestinian side civilians.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Morch]

Disproportionate response and the use of military towards civil disobedience has been standard procedure for the right wing governments for a long time.

Human life means nothing to them unless it is one of their own.

B'Tselem represent some of the many decent reasonable people of Israel.

Launching rockets is civil disobedience nowadays?

Did non-right-wing Israeli governments refrain from applying military force against the Palestinians?

Do Palestinians show much care for human life? Even their own?

I am not sure what planet you are on but the so called rockets from Hamas are little more than glorified fireworks compared the high tech ballistic guided stuff aimed at the Palestinian civilian populations housing.

The IDF know exactly to the inch what they are going to hit and the risks of killing innocent people.

The kids who were killed on the beach by the Israeli navy are a prime example of war crimes.

As for the constant use of the the holocaust as some means of generating sympathy or reason for Israel to do what it want let me remind all who use that word that probably 25% were non Jewish gypsies,gays,lesbians,people with mental problems and disabled amongst others.

The numbers are irrelevant. Six million is the figure often used but what about the two million Cambodians killed by Pol Pot? They were brutally hacked to death with picks and shovels and often buried alive.

Every life is valuable but sadly those in the right wing government of Israel do not see it that way.

This discussion is about the killing of innocent people by a highly mechanised army.

Thanks for the rant - now, could you explain again if launching rockets at civilian population is, in fact, civil disobedience? Note that I wasn't even arguing anything regarding Israel's actions - simply asking you to clarify your statement, which you failed to do. As for rockets being "glorified fire works", my guess is that you've never had the pleasure of being on the receiving end - if you are in need of an example of how harmless they can be, check out one of the Ukraine topics for a reality check.

Are you, by any chance, an IDF intelligence officer? Perhaps having some otherwise relevant expertise and insider knowledge as to the level of information available to the IDF and to the impeccable way it is applied during fighting? War crimes are not decided by media and not even by indignant posters. There are rules, and they are not always what people think that they are.

The report itself mentioned this (even if the OP did not, a more detailed view on the parallel topic, no idea why they are not merged). There are provision which allow attacking civilian targets, the parameters for deciding whether or not such an attack is legit are less clear.

I did not bring up the issue of the Nazis or the Holocaust in this connection - your post suggested that posters supporting Israel would, when in fact the first two instances where this came up (pretty early on the thread, one might add) were by posters who oppose Israel's policies. And in this post you're picking it up again - not even sure what you're on about with Pol Pot.

You say that every life is valuable but that Israel's right wing government does not see it this way. Would you care to expand on Hamas's humanistic vision? Or on how previous non-right-wing Israeli governments saw things? One liners are great, but very rarely shed much true light on anything.

The discussion seems to be about a few things, not least among them is having a go at other posters with opposing views. As my post was simply questioning issues raised by yourself earlier.

[Morch]

The point I am making is the Hamas rockets are aimed at sparsely populated areas and are not controlled devices.

The high tech IDF stuff can hit the centre of a building and reduce it to rubble along with occupants.

The numbers who died in the last onslaught on unarmed civilians speak for themselves.

No amount of filibuster is going to change world opinion or what is seen in newspapers and on tv news.

The majority of Israeli casualties were soldiers and on the Palestinian side civilians.

The B'Tselem report does not make this claim with regard to Hamas's rockets.

Even Hamas does not make this claim regarding its rockets.

And yet....

Edited January 30, 2015 by Morch

[Morch]

Oh yes, B'Tselem. Why would anyone pay attention to them?

"B'Tselem has been harshly criticized by Israeli nationalists. In 2011, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman charged the group with abetting terrorism and weakening Israel's defense forces"

LINK

Oh yeah, Lieberman. A right wing politician who faced massive corruption charges, which sort of melted away in the face of his ongoing silence during investigations and witnesses failing to materialize under odd circumstances. The same politician who's party basically faded away just now, as similar police investigation indicate many other members indulged in the same. Why would anyone pay attention to him?

B'Tselem is a legit NGO, even if one does not agree with their views or their conclusions. There were, indeed, occasions were their reports were found to be inaccurate, fair enough. That their activists are sometimes over-zealous in their readiness to believe some things, true as well. Discrediting all their efforts because a political rival demonizes the group is ridiculous at best.

[Steely Dan]

I wonder whether B'tselem will revise their findings should evidence become available which they have not considered. There was considerable criticism of their figures and methodology resulting from operation cast lead, I suspect similar politically motivated biases will be found relating to the last Gaza conflict.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Report-slams-BTselem-Cast-Lead-figures

[Jay Sata]

I brought up the Pol Pot issue simply because the Khmers do not constantly refer to the terrible atrocities that occurred in their country as an indirect result of the US war in Vietnam.

I have travelled extensively over the years in Cambodia and it is really not possible,to,find anyone who did not lose relatives during the period 1975 to 79 when around 2 million people were exterminated. However they have put it behind them and do not rake it up on a regular basis to try and make the world feel guilty. The Vietnamese are the same. They suffered huge losses through US carpet bombing,napalm and Agent Orange.

In the case of the latter the deformed and disabled are everywhere.

Mans inhumanity to man knows no bounds but I think we all would imagine the Israelis would have a better understanding than most.

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

On a final note can someone please explain why. Israel has never played a part in United Nations peacekeeping operations anywhere on the planet .

Edited January 30, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Steely Dan]

I wonder whether B'tselem will revise their findings should evidence become available which they have not considered. There was considerable criticism of their figures and methodology resulting from operation cast lead, I suspect similar politically motivated biases will be found relating to the last Gaza conflict.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Report-slams-BTselem-Cast-Lead-figures

Alas, I trust their findings will be believed implicitly by the anti-Israel brigade, unless of course they have cause to revise them, when such revision would not be believed, as was the case with the Goldstone report.

[Morch]

The apologists will be right along to tell you there were rocket launchers in every home they targeted and there is no similarity between Israelis and Nazis. How can there be when they have 'the most moral army in the world'?

And here you are at the second post on this topic, making the implication that there is such similarity.

Disingenuous much?

[Jay Sata]

I hate to make comparisons between Nazis and the IDF but both have used collective punishment as a revenge.

The Nazis did it in occupied France against the Resistance.

The IDF are renowned for demolishing a whole tower block of homes if they suspect one person they are looking for has lived there.

[Ulysses G.]

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

Maybe that is because the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and have been fighting ever since. Many in their government still support terrorism and - according to their charter - one of the parties involved intends to commit genocide and destroy the Jewish nation. It is a lot easier to forgive former enemies than current ones.

Pol Pot was Cambodian, so it is pretty hard to blame the rest of the world for what he did to his own people.

[Morch]

Im surprised they have gotten away with their heavy handed and illegal actions for so long, you would think they would be more tolerant all considering maybe its time to forget ww2 and the taxes imposed on Germany and start making Israel pay the victims of this actions , oh I forgot Israel only takes and can do no wrong,

Germany paid reparations, not quite "taxes imposed". It was done following a mutual agreement, and many opinion assert that, in fact, Germany pulled a fast one at the time (the other side being the new state of Israel desperate for funds). An article exploring some of these issues was linked on the parallel topic.

Should Israel pay reparations? I don't know what international laws say on that, and then this could apply both ways. Not sure if this is even something which the Palestinians directly brought up. Off-hand, I would say that it sounds reasonable for reparations to be paid, just that until some semblance of negotiations returns it is very unlikely to be properly addressed, and even then, could take longer to agree on. My guess would be that bottom line, for the time being, cases which could be proven as criminal in the ICC (if an investigation materializes), will stand a good chance if reparations are sought. As for general, overall damages - that will for the time being remain dependent on contributions from donor countries becoming a reality. So far, most are empty promises.