Patong is dead.

[Peterw42]

41 minutes ago, NamKangMan said:

 

Sure, Singaporeans splash some cash around, but with only 6 million people, there's not hoards of them. 

 

Yes, some Malaysians drink, but not a great deal of them, and of the ones that do, it's quite moderate.

 

Indians, well, they will order one beer and four straws. 

 

Russians, they will buy a bottle of vodka from 7/11.

 

Chinese, they are lead around in a group where the tour leader has done a rock bottom price with the manager of the bar for each drink for the tour group.

 

The Malays, Indians and Singaporeans all have one thing in common, they come here for the cheap sex.  Great for Issan's economy, not really that great for Phuket's economy.

An interesting graph for you NKM, and look who spends the least, Europeans !

 

The article is here http://www.thaiwebsites.com/tourism-income-Thailand.asp

It basically says that Europeans and Australians etc stay longer but spend less. Asean and Chinese stay a short time but spend more. Maybe maths isnt my strong point but I know which tourists I would prefer.

[phuketjock]

2 hours ago, NamKangMan said:

 

 

The total of 1576 properties for sale were from only one website, not a total from many websites.

 

You are welcome to challenge the accuracy of the website, but it clearly shows 1576 properties for sale.  How far out do you think those numbers are?  

 

I posted the link. 

Sorry no LINK that I can see??

And consider the accuracy of the website challenged.

Edited May 27, 2017 by phuketjock
addition

[chrisandsu]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

An interesting graph for you NKM, and look who spends the least, Europeans !

 

The article is here http://www.thaiwebsites.com/tourism-income-Thailand.asp

It basically says that Europeans and Australians etc stay longer but spend less. Asean and Chinese stay a short time but spend more. Maybe maths isnt my strong point but I know which tourists I would prefer.

That could be seriously scewed as Europeans have far longer holidays then anyone else . Also how the hell could they figure that out ? I'm sorry but even I will call that fake news. 

[phuketjock]

1 hour ago, NamKangMan said:

 

You work in real estate here, don't you?

 

I'd like to here what you think would be a sound investment here at the moment.

You don't work in anything here do you, oh and you own nothing here do

you?

We would all like to see less posts from people who know little or nothing

about the subject/s being discussed.

Edited May 27, 2017 by phuketjock
correction

[phuketjock]

1 hour ago, NamKangMan said:

 

"who in their right mind would invest their money in a bar" - who in their right mind would invest anything here, in the current economic climate????  Serious question. 

People with the business acumen to see an opportunity when it

knocks.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

That could be seriously scewed as Europeans have far longer holidays then anyone else . Also how the hell could they figure that out ? I'm sorry but even I will call that fake news. 

The article does take into account that Europeans stay longer but spend less per day. I dont know how the data is generated, maybe surveys, data from a hotel such as nationality, tours booked, meals eaten in restaurant, money exchanged etc.

At least it is Data and not just someones opinion.

[Peterw42]

5 minutes ago, phuketjock said:

People with the business acumen to see an opportunity when it

knocks.

I can see lots of business opportunities based on NKMs opinion, debt collection, locksmith (for securing those shops that are closing), dried fruit importer, a luggage shop for all the westerners leaving.

[phuketjock]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

Assumption: "I am sorry xylo if you have so many friends that got it wrong"  

You make the assumption that they got it wrong. Perhaps it was right when they entered the business but world events change things which cannot always be redeemed locally.

 

Assumption: "Things change and if you are not prepared to meet these changes...

When things change dramatically it is not always possible to meet them as many huge corporations have discovered. Perhaps they planned to meet change, but not always possible when one is limited by type or location of business.

 

Assumption: "they shouldn't have gone into their venture so unprepared" 

That speaks for itself.......in business you can only prepare for so much. Perhaps they did their homework, but like the GFC, who could prepare for that?

 

Assumption: "Constantly bleating on about it......."

You assume that I am "bleating" but I am stating the facts as I know them. I am stating what I know and see, after all this thread is entitled "Patong is dead", is it not?

 

So taking a lead from you I will go and tell the largest supermarket here that they have got it wrong and didn't do any planning, and whilst I am at it do the same for the large food and beverage chain cos I am sure they'd love to hear your words of wisdom.

 

As for your comment in a later post about bars, well there was a time when bars were very profitable, now not so of course, but then again following your train of thought re bars, if there were no bars here then Patong really would be struggling and the whole economy here would be in dire straits.........after all, thousands flock to this place for the bars and nightlife and the spin off in business is HUGE; without them........???

 

PS. This is my point of view and a post, not a "bleat", please try to understand the difference.

Same old same old you and NKM are great at bending peoples words just enough to suit your purpose

For the many people you see failing, big or small, there are just as many, if not more, who are not failing 

or there would be no supermarkets, hotels ,guesthouses or bars at all would there?

If you have been here for all those years then you will know that EVERY year, not just this year, there are

a slew of bars go up for sale and change hands going to the next sucker in line. Every year the Thai

owners are gifted key money and rent for the next season and invariably there is another one lining up

the following season. It has been going on for years it is not a recent thing.

PS. It may well be your opinion but when you post the same " opinion " over and over again it starts to

sound like a bleat. cheers.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

The article does take into account that Europeans stay longer but spend less per day. I dont know how the data is generated, maybe surveys, data from a hotel such as nationality, tours booked, meals eaten in restaurant, money exchanged etc.

At least it is Data and not just someones opinion.

Agree with that, but would prefer some more background info, like what is included in the spendings, time period, etc.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, phuketjock said:

Same old same old you and NKM are great at bending peoples words just enough to suit your purpose

Just as you have done to suit your purpose with my examples of your assumptions (which you won't admit they were)......touche old jock.

 

1 hour ago, phuketjock said:

PS. It may well be your opinion but when you post the same " opinion " over and over again it starts to

sound like a bleat.

Same same with yours but of course you cannot see it........touche again!

 

1 hour ago, phuketjock said:

If you have been here for all those years then you will know that EVERY year, not just this year, there are

a slew of bars go up for sale and change hands

That I do know, but have never seen this many empty and for lease before.....and it's the same with guesthouses, however you right about one thing and that is there are usually enough fools around to take them, but even that has eased off.

 

1 hour ago, phuketjock said:

who are not failing 

or there would be no supermarkets, hotels ,guesthouses or bars at all would there?

You touch on this point but fail to see the irony when you mention "Thai owners"......because they continue to build and open establishments in the hope of easy income and you think that these businesses are making money?? Many are not and won't even do so when the next fool comes along. Thais will build no matter what the state of the economy.

 

The place is oversupplied with shops, pharmacies, guesthouses, restaurants and bars making nothing or just about existing and as for empty and unsold condos, well that's another story.

 

There are many posts on various subjects regarding Patong.........real estate glut, inability to sell, oversupply of guesthouses, poor infrastructure, empty shops and buildings and shophouses, stalled developments and so on, but according to you everything is fine and dandy. 

 

As another poster has said, "I can explain it to you, but I can't help you understand it". 

[eisfeld]

4 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Maybe maths isnt my strong point but I know which tourists I would prefer.

Your maths is indeed weak. You quoted a single datapoint from the article which doesn't answer the question that was sought after. You showed spend per day which was not adjusted for length of stay.

 

Just a bit under the graph you posted, they say this:

 

Quote

Multiplying money spent per day with the number of days in the country, provides the following data. It is quite obvious that visitors from outside the Asean (closeby) region are much more valuable in money terms. Overall, visitors from outside Asia, spend much more money in Thailand, during their travel trips to the country. There may be more and more Chinese and Indian visitors, but still, Europeans, Australians and Americans spend close to double the amount of money per visitor, mainly because they stay longer.

 

The following two graphs are all that matters. In terms of ROI for Thailand, Europeans and Oceanians are probably the best. China is also a very lucrative market but the cost for infrastructure spending might be higher to support the masses.

 

 

[phuketjock]

54 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Just as you have done to suit your purpose with my examples of your assumptions (which you won't admit they were)......touche old jock.

 

Same same with yours but of course you cannot see it........touche again!

 

That I do know, but have never seen this many empty and for lease before.....and it's the same with guesthouses, however you right about one thing and that is there are usually enough fools around to take them, but even that has eased off.

 

You touch on this point but fail to see the irony when you mention "Thai owners"......because they continue to build and open establishments in the hope of easy income and you think that these businesses are making money?? Many are not and won't even do so when the next fool comes along. Thais will build no matter what the state of the economy.

 

The place is oversupplied with shops, pharmacies, guesthouses, restaurants and bars making nothing or just about existing and as for empty and unsold condos, well that's another story.

 

There are many posts on various subjects regarding Patong.........real estate glut, inability to sell, oversupply of guesthouses, poor infrastructure, empty shops and buildings and shophouses, stalled developments and so on, but according to you everything is fine and dandy. 

 

As another poster has said, "I can explain it to you, but I can't help you understand it". 

Baaaaa,  Baaaaaa,  Baaaaaaa,                   

If you are such a "very good business man of 10 years experience" why can't you help your mates out with your wisdom??

Edited May 27, 2017 by phuketjock
addition

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Your maths is indeed weak. You quoted a single datapoint from the article which doesn't answer the question that was sought after. You showed spend per day which was not adjusted for length of stay.

 

Just a bit under the graph you posted, they say this:

 

 

The following two graphs are all that matters. In terms of ROI for Thailand, Europeans and Oceanians are probably the best. China is also a very lucrative market but the cost for infrastructure spending might be higher to support the masses.

 

 

 I get your point but compare Oceania, which is Australia and New Zealand, $2,300 per tourist @ around a million tourists OR China $1400 per tourist @ around 7 million tourists. For every Australian not coming and spending $2,300, seven Chinese are coming and spending $1400.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, phuketjock said:

If you are such a "very good business man of 10 years experience" why can't you help your mates out with your wisdom??

Well I did start up a business with $100k in seed capital and build into just under $2 billion in 7 years, including seeing it through the "Tech stock crash" of 1999, so at least you are right about one thing! Not so with the 10 yrs experience though.....try over 30 yrs.

 

However I cannot help the foolishness of those who decided to buy bars after the GFC when it was clear to me that the knock on effect would be disastrous. Wisdom and business expertise I may have displayed in my working career, but a magician I am not.

 

Once external sources drive and influence the market segment in which you operate you are somewhat limited as to what changes you can make as a business and that's a key element in Patong now.

 

However I seem to recall a few posts back that you were proffering solutions to these type of dilemmas so perhaps you could help them......I am sure they will pay you well!

 

Och aye the noo!

 

[phuketjock]

10 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Well I did start up a business with $100k in seed capital and build into just under $2 billion in 7 years, including seeing it through the "Tech stock crash" of 1999, so at least you are right about one thing! Not so with the 10 yrs experience though.....try over 30 yrs.

 

However I cannot help the foolishness of those who decided to buy bars after the GFC when it was clear to me that the knock on effect would be disastrous. Wisdom and business expertise I may have displayed in my working career, but a magician I am not.

 

Once external sources drive and influence the market segment in which you operate you are somewhat limited as to what changes you can make as a business and that's a key element in Patong now.

 

However I seem to recall a few posts back that you were proffering solutions to these type of dilemmas so perhaps you could help them......I am sure they will pay you well!

 

Och aye the noo!

 

Haha, I have " proffered " nothing I merely stated that those with the appropriate foresight

find themselves not struggling to the same degree as your unfortunate buddies.

 You don't half like yourself don't you??

Poch ma hon sunshine.

Edited May 27, 2017 by phuketjock
correction

[sekmet]

 I get your point but compare Oceania, which is Australia and New Zealand, $2,300 per tourist @ around a million tourists OR China $1400 per tourist @ around 7 million tourists. For every Australian not coming and spending $2,300, seven Chinese are coming and spending $1400.

You are correct. And that is seven more tour busses, seven more toilet flushes, seven more . . .

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[eisfeld]

6 hours ago, sekmet said:

 

You are correct. And that is seven more tour busses, seven more toilet flushes, seven more . . .
 

 

 

Exactly, expenses are also much higher to support a higher number of tourists. Bigger airports, more streets, bigger utility usage etc. How much can Patong in particular grow more? There's no room. And then there's also the effect of westeners not wanting to be where the chinese masses are etc. It could be the case that for every 10 chinese, you might be losing 3 European, 1 America and one Oceanian. Is it still worthwhile then?

 

Calculations are really hard. Nobody will be able to calculate precise numbers. I'm sure one can run the whole tourism economy just on chinese visitors. But keep in mind they can be gone as quickly as they came. The chinese economy is growing but some have doubts if that can continue. Diversification is important.

 

The tourism economy of a country is just a big business and the people at the top have to think where they can grow and get more overall profit. China was a no-brainer to get a short-term revenue and profit increase. We'll have to see how it pans out in the long run.

[Mysterion]

Although far from perfect, Phuket remains the star holiday destination in Asia.

 

There is still some very good value to be found on completed foreign freehold properties, with very attractive rental yields.

 

For property buyers, it is usually best to avoid off-plan sales, as they are mostly far overpriced.

 

Phuket's relative proximity/easy connectivity to huge markets such as China, Russia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Australia etc will continue to strongly support the tourism and property business.

 

Phuket will probably always be the busy and attractive "Cancun/Costa del sol" of Asia. Good for a business owner with sound ideas.

 

TINA

There Is (currently) No Alternative(in Asia.)

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Mysterion

[madmax2]

3 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Although far from perfect, Phuket remains the star holiday destination in Asia.

 

There is still some very good value to be found on completed foreign freehold properties, with very attractive rental yields.

 

For property buyers, it is usually best to avoid off-plan sales, as they are mostly far overpriced.

 

Phuket's relative proximity/easy connectivity to huge markets such as China, Russia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Australia etc will continue to strongly support the tourism and property business.

 

Phuket will probably always be the busy and attractive "Cancun/Costa del sol" of Asia. Good for a business owner with sound ideas.

 

TINA

There Is (currently) No Alternative(in Asia.)

 

 

You sound like a real estate agent, business is quiet isn't it, time to look for another job

[Peterw42]

4 hours ago, Mysterion said:

TINA

There Is (currently) No Alternative(in Asia.)

There are lots of alternatives, within Thailand, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Koh Samui. Within Asia, Bali, Phillipines, Maldives.

[madmax2]

18 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

There are lots of alternatives, within Thailand, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Koh Samui. Within Asia, Bali, Phillipines, Maldives.

Also Myanmar and Vietnam are being promoted by Australian travel agents and Suva, lots of alternative holiday destinations now compared to previous years

Aussies mainly had their holidays in Bali or Thailand but this no longer applies there are lots of reasonably priced holiday packages available just about anywhere in the world

Places like the USA are actively chasing the chinese tourists by making it easier to get a longer tourist visa

Its not only Patong that is quite at present, its tourist oriented businesses all over Phuket 

[NamKangMan]

23 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

And where is your proof that westerners do it any differently ??????? As I said previously, some of the cheapest tourists I have seen are fellow Australians that visit 4 times a year, live on mama noodles and buy cases of beer from macro. Some of the biggest spenders I have seen are Japanese and Russians. 

Again, your perception that westerners spend more, based on what ??????????

 

By your own post, the difference between some Australian and most Chinese tourists is a case of beer from Macro.

 

Macro doesn't even see a case of beer out of the Chinese tourists. 

 

How many high net worth Chinese do you see on Phuket????

[NamKangMan]

23 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

That would be something like a Brit that stays at a Brit owned guest house, eats at the Brit owned Ye old english pub, and drinks at a Brit owned bar watching English football. 

That is a zero baht tourist, its been going on for years. Its not new to the Chinese.

 

The Brit doesn't travel in a tour group where the tour operator has "negotiated" the absolute rock bottom price for EVERYTHING the tour group consumes and does, and EVERYWHERE the tour group goes. 

 

I'm not talking a a small discount for a bus of 50 customers.  I'm talking about the Chinese tour operators taking advantage of large establishments who are in financial distress, the same distress this type of tourism has caused to Phuket's tourism industry. 

 

In the future, if it isn't happening already, the Chinese tour operators will dictate to businesses here what they will pay, and the business either accepts it, or goes broke. 

 

This is why profits from the Chinese tour groups are minimal, to zero.  Hence the term, "zero baht tourists."  Also, the tour is bought in China, where an agent probably makes more money than the Thai businesses hosting these tourists on Phuket, thus, a large portion of the profits remain in China.

[NamKangMan]

23 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

An interesting graph for you NKM, and look who spends the least, Europeans !

 

The article is here http://www.thaiwebsites.com/tourism-income-Thailand.asp

It basically says that Europeans and Australians etc stay longer but spend less. Asean and Chinese stay a short time but spend more. Maybe maths isnt my strong point but I know which tourists I would prefer.

 

That is an interesting graph.

 

eisfeld has already posted my thoughts, and a relevant quote from the article.  He beat me to it. 

 

I would also add that the graph doesn't show a declining western tourism market here.  So, as mentioned, you would need a lot more Chinese to make up the revenue lost from the lost western tourists. 

[NamKangMan]

23 hours ago, phuketjock said:

You don't work in anything here do you, oh and you own nothing here do

you?

We would all like to see less posts from people who know little or nothing

about the subject/s being discussed.

 

Do you have anything to contribute?  Perhaps something that shows all is well with property and business in Patong, or on Phuket?

 

As you have a business and property here, it should be easy for you to show both sectors are doing well.  Right? 

Edited May 28, 2017 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

23 hours ago, phuketjock said:

People with the business acumen to see an opportunity when it

knocks.

 

As stated, you could have a great business acumen, but the way the tourism industry is being administered on Phuket is shifting below the feet of business owners, and there is very little they can do about it.

 

Many bought long leases, yet rapid change has taken place within the last 2 years.  They are now along for the ride. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

21 hours ago, phuketjock said:

Same old same old you and NKM are great at bending peoples words just enough to suit your purpose

For the many people you see failing, big or small, there are just as many, if not more, who are not failing 

or there would be no supermarkets, hotels ,guesthouses or bars at all would there?

If you have been here for all those years then you will know that EVERY year, not just this year, there are

a slew of bars go up for sale and change hands going to the next sucker in line. Every year the Thai

owners are gifted key money and rent for the next season and invariably there is another one lining up

the following season. It has been going on for years it is not a recent thing.

PS. It may well be your opinion but when you post the same " opinion " over and over again it starts to

sound like a bleat. cheers.

 

"EVERY year, not just this year, there are a slew of bars go up for sale and change hands going to the next sucker in line" - there doesn't seem to be many "suckers in line" for the many vacant bars in Tiger. 

 

They used to all be rented, now most are vacant, and have been for some time.

 

For your benefit, this an an OBSERVATION and not an OPINION. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

9 hours ago, eisfeld said:

 

Exactly, expenses are also much higher to support a higher number of tourists. Bigger airports, more streets, bigger utility usage etc. How much can Patong in particular grow more? There's no room. And then there's also the effect of westeners not wanting to be where the chinese masses are etc. It could be the case that for every 10 chinese, you might be losing 3 European, 1 America and one Oceanian. Is it still worthwhile then?

 

Calculations are really hard. Nobody will be able to calculate precise numbers. I'm sure one can run the whole tourism economy just on chinese visitors. But keep in mind they can be gone as quickly as they came. The chinese economy is growing but some have doubts if that can continue. Diversification is important.

 

The tourism economy of a country is just a big business and the people at the top have to think where they can grow and get more overall profit. China was a no-brainer to get a short-term revenue and profit increase. We'll have to see how it pans out in the long run.

 

Yes, the infrastructure on Phuket would struggle to support the number of Chinese needed to input the same amount of revenue into the local economy as the previous western tourism market did. 

 

Add to that, the western tourism market is in decline here, and you can see, while the tourists numbers are up, the money from them is down, way down. 

 

In recent pages on this thread we have focused mainly on business owners, but let's not forget, every vacant commercial premises represents a loss to a Thai landlord. 

 

Targeting Chinese package holiday makers, and the inability to address Phuket's "issues" has caused the money flow to slow considerably here, particularly in the hospitality sector.

Edited May 28, 2017 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

8 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Although far from perfect, Phuket remains the star holiday destination in Asia.

 

There is still some very good value to be found on completed foreign freehold properties, with very attractive rental yields.

 

For property buyers, it is usually best to avoid off-plan sales, as they are mostly far overpriced.

 

Phuket's relative proximity/easy connectivity to huge markets such as China, Russia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Australia etc will continue to strongly support the tourism and property business.

 

Phuket will probably always be the busy and attractive "Cancun/Costa del sol" of Asia. Good for a business owner with sound ideas.

 

TINA

There Is (currently) No Alternative(in Asia.)

 

 

 

"Phuket will probably always be the busy and attractive "Cancun/Costa del sol" of Asia." - and what happened to Costa del Sol????

[NamKangMan]

4 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

There are lots of alternatives, within Thailand, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Koh Samui. Within Asia, Bali, Phillipines, Maldives.

 

I agree.  There are many options available to tourists these days. 

 

I would also add Vietnam to your list as a major competitor to Phuket.

 

The thing is, Phuket is doing NOTHING to compete, except for pumping more numbers of Chinese onto the island.  Something that other destinations do not need to do.

 

They refuse to address Phuket's many "issues" that caused the decline in the western tourism market, and instead, opted to replace one tourist demographic with another.  Where to when the Chinese have finished with Phuket, or, the Chinese economy / currency hits a hurdle?

 

In my opinion, this has really devalued Phuket as a tourist destination.