Will my newborn need a passport?

[brewsterbudgen]

I'm British (in Thailand on an Extension of Stay) and my girlfriend is Laotian (she has a 3 month stamp until mid April). Our baby will be born in Pattaya in March. We're not married.

My girlfriend has plenty of family who have children and the kids are free to go back and forth from Laos to Thailand across the land border at Chong Mek, accompanied by their mother, with no passport or any other form of ID. Shortly after my baby is born, we want to travel back to Pakse in Laos, for Songkran. I don't fancy the bus journey from Pattaya - Ubon - Pakse, so I want to fly direct from BKK (on Lao Airlines) as I've done before, with my girlfriend, her mother and the baby.

Will flying be possible with a few-weeks-old baby who obviously has no passport?

[draftvader]

Moved to Visa Forum

[ubonjoe]

A passport will be needed for the child to leave the country.

If you cross at a border crossing it would be the same as by air. Your child will have no proof of nationality unless you can get a Lao birth certificate from the Lao embassy.

You will have to decide which passport you can get the quickest since your child will have dual nationalities by birth or decent.

[Mario2008]

To leave the country the child will need to show a passport and the Thai birth certificate. That shows the child was born in Thailand and explains why there is no immigration record of the child.

Upon return to Thailand the child needs a passport/visa just as anybody else.

[brewsterbudgen]

Ok, but how come my girlfriend's sisters' children, aged between 4 months and 3 years old can travel between Laos and Thailand, via Chong Mek with neither passports or birth certificates? I would guess they must just allowed in by benevolent immigration officers? If so, I suspect airports may be stricter.

My child will only be about 3 weeks old, so it will be impossible for him/her to get a UK passport in time and a Lao passport will take ages and is best applied for in Laos. We should however have the Thai birth certificate.

There are many babies born to Lao women in Thailand who seem to be able to travel back and forth from Thailand to Laos without issues. Presumably a blind eye is turned? My worry is BKK airport may be stricter but would they really not allow a Lao mother to return home with her newborn child?

Edit: my girlfriend's and her mother's Thai immigration stamp will be about to expire when we leave as well.

Edited February 7, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[ubonjoe]

I am not sure that it is all that easy for Laotians to cross the border with children. I suspect the children are on a border pass.

Your child certainly would not be allowed to board an international flight without a passport or some type of travel document. The airline would not even allow checking in for the flight without one.

Perhaps the Lao embassy can issue a travel document instead of a passport,

You could fly to here in Ubon and then make the short trip to Chong Mek by taxi, van or bus. There are buses from here to Pakse.

[RBOP]

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

[brewsterbudgen]

I am not sure that it is all that easy for Laotians to cross the border with children. I suspect the children are on a border pass.

Your child certainly would not be allowed to board an international flight without a passport or some type of travel document. The airline would not even allow checking in for the flight without one.

Perhaps the Lao embassy can issue a travel document instead of a passport,

You could fly to here in Ubon and then make the short trip to Chong Mek by taxi, van or bus. There are buses from here to Pakse.

Thanks Ubonjoe. I suspect that although the Lao adults have passports, the children who definitely don't, are issued border passes. They certainly come and go without issues. Presumably a Lao citizen cannot fly from BKK to Laos on just a border pass, or border passes cannot be issued at BKK airport?

Either way, your suggestion about flying to Ubon is a good one and much cheaper than Lao Airlines direct! As for getting any documentation from Lao officialdom, it fills me with dread as, technically, a foreigner having a baby with a Lao girl out of wedlock is an offence.

[brewsterbudgen]

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

[ubonjoe]

It is not possible to fly into or out of the country with a border pass.

Border passes for Lao citizens are only issued in Laos.

You can get a meter taxi from the airport here to the bus station. There are vans going to Chong Mek every half hour or so.

[samran]

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

Given you were born overseas, then I wonder if your child would even be entitled to british citizenship? A more knowledgeable poster probably could comment on this.

[brewsterbudgen]

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

Given you were born overseas, then I wonder if your child would even be entitled to british citizenship? A more knowledgeable poster probably could comment on this.

Although I was born in Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia) in 1960 to British parents, I became a British citizen in 1965 and have had a UK passport since then. I am pretty sure my child will be entitled to British citizenship, although I anticipate the application process will be rather more convoluted and lengthy.

[RBOP]

Go the Loa Embassy as there is room for children to be added to Mother's Lao passport. But that was year ago and rules may have changed. You should go to see both Embassy's for advice. Good luck.

[brewsterbudgen]

Go the Loa Embassy as there is room for children to be added to Mother's Lao passport. But that was year ago and rules may have changed. You should go to see both Embassy's for advice. Good luck.

That's interesting. Will there be a problem that she is unmarried and the father is a foreigner?

[Wanderingdrew]

When registering the birth at the Lao embassy request a travel document for the new born at the same time its pretty fast actually most embassy's have this system for unexpected births of new citizens in foreign lands some issue a document others add a page with the new born in the passport

[brewsterbudgen]

When registering the birth at the Lao embassy request a travel document for the new born at the same time its pretty fast actually most embassy's have this system for unexpected births of new citizens in foreign lands some issue a document others add a page with the new born in the passport

Thanks that sounds straightforward. But I'm still anxious that either my girlfriend or I could face problems in that we are not married.

[Satcommlee]

If you were born in Zimbabwe then unless your parents were in Crown Service you may be unable to pass on your British Nationality to your child. (Check this though with UK gov websites)

Border passes I thought were only issued to persons registered in that specific border province only..

This is a tricky one, and I doubt you will get a straight and informed answer here..

[ubonjoe]

Border passes I thought were only issued to persons registered in that specific border province only..

This is a tricky one, and I doubt you will get a straight and informed answer here..

Discussion has parley been about getting a border pass to enter Thailand from Laos. I am not sure what the procedures are for that.

As said already a Laotian cannot get a border pass here to enter Laos.

For Thailand there is no requirement for the person to live in the province where the border crossing is to enter Laos. My wife has gotten border passes in Nong Kai and Mukdahan.

[khunPer]

OP, you write “Laotian girlfriend” and “not married”.

A poster have in an earlier tread mentioned something about relationship between unmarried foreigners and Laotian citizens in reply to a poster talking about his Laotian girlfriend and a coming baby.

I don’t know it that is important, but it seems still to be valid, and may be worth checking, before you register a child in Lao with a foreign father, not married to the Laotian mother.

The text in questions says:

“Sexual relationships between foreigners and Lao citizens who are not legally married are not permitted under Lao law. Permission for marriage or engagement to a Lao citizen must be submitted in a formal application to Lao authorities. Penalties for failing to register a relationship range from USD$ 500-5,000, and possibly imprisonment or deportation.”

Source:

http://www.laos.embassy.gov.au/vtan/AEV001002.html

Wish you all the best and good luck...

[Wanderingdrew]

When registering the birth at the Lao embassy request a travel document for the new born at the same time its pretty fast actually most embassy's have this system for unexpected births of new citizens in foreign lands some issue a document others add a page with the new born in the passport

Thanks that sounds straightforward. But I'm still anxious that either my girlfriend or I could face problems in that we are not married.

Correct you will if you do not do it correctly having sex with a lao citizen unwed can result in Jail ---> IF IN LAO !! for both her and You more likely you

you or cost you big ...... do NOT go anywhere near embassy the mother does !

You may find it maybe the case that father is unknown is the best way to go and then apply with paternity Certificate after MARRIAGE and amend the birth certificate

Or if she can prove she resides out of Lao it will be ok

Or marry her before Birth certificate HK you can by pass the the requirements of single eligibility free to marry

[Jaggg88]

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

If you are a British Citizen you don't need a UK birth certificate as where you were born is not relevant, unless you hold some other type of British passport - British Overseas Citizen etc

[RBOP]

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Go the Loa Embassy as there is room for children to be added to Mother's Lao passport. But that was year ago and rules may have changed. You should go to see both Embassy's for advice. Good luck.

That's interesting. Will there be a problem that she is unmarried and the father is a foreigner?

The Lao Embassy will need to see <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Go the Loa Embassy as there is room for children to be added to Mother's Lao passport. But that was year ago and rules may have changed. You should go to see both Embassy's for advice. Good luck.

That's interesting. Will there be a problem that she is unmarried and the father is a foreigner?

It doesn't matter but the Embassy will need to see the baby's birth certificate.

[RBOP]

Oh yeah, be careful if you go to Lao because it is illegal for a foreigner to have sex with a Lao girl if you are not married. My not yet wife was a few months pregnant when we had the Lao traditional wedding and the relatives were a bit nervous I could be arrested.

[brewsterbudgen]

Correct you will if you do not do it correctly having sex with a lao citizen unwed can result in Jail ---> IF IN LAO !! for both her and You more likely you

you or cost you big ...... do NOT go anywhere near embassy the mother does !

You may find it maybe the case that father is unknown is the best way to go and then apply with paternity Certificate after MARRIAGE and amend the birth certificate

Or if she can prove she resides out of Lao it will be ok

Or marry her before Birth certificate HK you can by pass the the requirements of single eligibility free to marry

I've been dating her for nearly 5 years so I'm aware of the laws in Laos. Luckily the Headman of her village is her family friend, and whenever I've been to her home to stay, a few glasses of Kao Lao with him seems to have worked and I've never had problems. I'm more concerned about Lao officialdom and have no plans to volunteer myself at any government office! We plan to live in Thailand, so hopefully any holidays in Laos can be uneventful. In time we may marry, but the tales I've heard are offputting, especially now that we have a child together. Marrying in the UK is an option and then, somehow, getting it auhorised by Laos.

Your baby will need a passport to travel. The Lao Embassy can help but takes time and a lot of paper work. If you and your girl friend agree to make your child British then the British embassy can help. It took 9 months for me and my Lao girl friend to marry officially in Thailand (lots of paper work needed from Lao side for Thai to see) but only ~ 6 weeks to get Canadian citizenship and passport under normal processing. It might be quicker now.

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

If you are a British Citizen you don't need a UK birth certificate as where you were born is not relevant, unless you hold some other type of British passport - British Overseas Citizen etc

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

[Sophon]

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

If you are a British Citizen you don't need a UK birth certificate as where you were born is not relevant, unless you hold some other type of British passport - British Overseas Citizen etc

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

I am afraid it might not be as simple as you believe it to be. I would advice you to ask questions about this in the "Visas and migration to other countries" forum, but you could start out by reading this post.

I am not British so what little knowledge I have about this topic comes from reading ThaiVisa over the years, so what I am about to say should be taken with more than a grain of salt. But my understanding is that people born outside of Great Britain to British citizens are classified as "British by descent". If someone who is British by descent has a child, he/she can only automatically pass on their British citizenship to their child if that child is born inside Great Britain. However, it's a little more complicated than that, I believe that if the child can demonstrate enough ties to Great Britain (e.g. grows up and goes to school in Great Britain), the child may still be able to claim citizenship. Also, a child born outside of Great Britain (e.g. in Thailand) to parents who are both British by descent must probably be able to claim British citizenship, as the child would otherwise be left stateless.

But British citizenship laws are quite complicated, so you should take some time to investigate this more thoroughly.

Good luck.

Sophon

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

If you are a British Citizen you don't need a UK birth certificate as where you were born is not relevant, unless you hold some other type of British passport - British Overseas Citizen etc

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

I am afraid it might not be as simple as you believe it to be. I would advice you to ask questions about this in the "Visas and migration to other countries" forum, but you could start out by reading this post.

I am not British so what little knowledge I have about this topic comes from reading ThaiVisa over the years, so what I am about to say should be taken with more than a grain of salt. But my understanding is that people born outside of Great Britain to British citizens are classified as "British by descent". If someone who is British by descent has a child, he/she can only automatically pass on their British citizenship to their child if that child is born inside Great Britain. However, it's a little more complicated than that, I believe that if the child can demonstrate enough ties to Great Britain (e.g. grows up and goes to school in Great Britain), the child may still be able to claim citizenship. Also, a child born outside of Great Britain (e.g. in Thailand) to parents who are both British by descent must probably be able to claim British citizenship, as the child would otherwise be left stateless.

But British citizenship laws are quite complicated, so you should take some time to investigate this more thoroughly.

Good luck.

Sophon

Thanks for the link. I've had a quick read of it and as I read it, if my child gets a UK passport, his/her children will not automatically be entitled to British citizenship unless he/she can show ties to the UK.

I'm still fairly confident that my status as a British citizen, despite being born in Rhodesia in 1960 to British parents, and having held full British citizenship since 1968, means my children will be automatically entitled to a UK passport.

But I'm interested in other opinions!

[cocopops]

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

I am afraid it might not be as simple as you believe it to be. I would advice you to ask questions about this in the "Visas and migration to other countries" forum, but you could start out by reading this post.

I am not British so what little knowledge I have about this topic comes from reading ThaiVisa over the years, so what I am about to say should be taken with more than a grain of salt. But my understanding is that people born outside of Great Britain to British citizens are classified as "British by descent". If someone who is British by descent has a child, he/she can only automatically pass on their British citizenship to their child if that child is born inside Great Britain. However, it's a little more complicated than that, I believe that if the child can demonstrate enough ties to Great Britain (e.g. grows up and goes to school in Great Britain), the child may still be able to claim citizenship. Also, a child born outside of Great Britain (e.g. in Thailand) to parents who are both British by descent must probably be able to claim British citizenship, as the child would otherwise be left stateless.

But British citizenship laws are quite complicated, so you should take some time to investigate this more thoroughly.

Good luck.

Sophon

Thanks for the link. I've had a quick read of it and as I read it, if my child gets a UK passport, his/her children will not automatically be entitled to British citizenship unless he/she can show ties to the UK.

I'm still fairly confident that my status as a British citizen, despite being born in Rhodesia in 1960 to British parents, and having held full British citizenship since 1968, means my children will be automatically entitled to a UK passport.

But I'm interested in other opinions!

If I've understood correctly, you yourself are a "British citizen by descent". As a result, in order to pass your citizenship on to your child, you must have at some stage in your life lived in Britain for 3 years. Not sure if they have to have been continuous or not. You have to apply before the child is 16.

At least I think that's the case. I'd be checking with the embassy or immigration department back home sooner rather than later though...

[brewsterbudgen]

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

I am afraid it might not be as simple as you believe it to be. I would advice you to ask questions about this in the "Visas and migration to other countries" forum, but you could start out by reading this post.

I am not British so what little knowledge I have about this topic comes from reading ThaiVisa over the years, so what I am about to say should be taken with more than a grain of salt. But my understanding is that people born outside of Great Britain to British citizens are classified as "British by descent". If someone who is British by descent has a child, he/she can only automatically pass on their British citizenship to their child if that child is born inside Great Britain. However, it's a little more complicated than that, I believe that if the child can demonstrate enough ties to Great Britain (e.g. grows up and goes to school in Great Britain), the child may still be able to claim citizenship. Also, a child born outside of Great Britain (e.g. in Thailand) to parents who are both British by descent must probably be able to claim British citizenship, as the child would otherwise be left stateless.

But British citizenship laws are quite complicated, so you should take some time to investigate this more thoroughly.

Good luck.

Sophon

Thanks for the link. I've had a quick read of it and as I read it, if my child gets a UK passport, his/her children will not automatically be entitled to British citizenship unless he/she can show ties to the UK.

I'm still fairly confident that my status as a British citizen, despite being born in Rhodesia in 1960 to British parents, and having held full British citizenship since 1968, means my children will be automatically entitled to a UK passport.

But I'm interested in other opinions!

If I've understood correctly, you yourself are a "British citizen by descent". As a result, in order to pass your citizenship on to your child, you must have at some stage in your life lived in Britain for 3 years. Not sure if they have to have been continuous or not. You have to apply before the child is 16.

At least I think that's the case. I'd be checking with the embassy or immigration department back home sooner rather than later though...

Cheers. I lived in the UK continuously from 1960 (when I was 6 months old) until 2005 when I came to Thailand to work. So I would think that counts.

[steve187]

quote from http://www.immigrationboards.com/general-uk-immigration-forum/passing-citizenship-to-children-if-british-by-descent-t20392.html

''Section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 allows children born overseas to a British (by descent) parent to be registered as a British citizen by descent provided that:

- the British parent has lived in the U.K. (including Channel Islands and Isle of Man) for a continuous period of 3 years any time before the child is born; and
- the child is second generation born overseas. In other words, the child has a British "otherwise than by descent" grandparent; and
- application is made within 12 months of the child's birth. (subject to certain exceptions).

So as you are British by descent (first generation) you could register your child as British by descent under section 3(2) but that could not be done for the next generation born outside the U.K.

The alternative is to register the child as British under section 3(5) of the 1981 Act, if the child + parents lives in the U.K. for 3 years before age 18. Child would need a settlement visa. Registration under section 3(5) of the Act confers British citizenship otherwise than by descent.''

[brewsterbudgen]

quote from http://www.immigrationboards.com/general-uk-immigration-forum/passing-citizenship-to-children-if-british-by-descent-t20392.html

''Section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 allows children born overseas to a British (by descent) parent to be registered as a British citizen by descent provided that:

- the British parent has lived in the U.K. (including Channel Islands and Isle of Man) for a continuous period of 3 years any time before the child is born; and

- the child is second generation born overseas. In other words, the child has a British "otherwise than by descent" grandparent; and

- application is made within 12 months of the child's birth. (subject to certain exceptions).

So as you are British by descent (first generation) you could register your child as British by descent under section 3(2) but that could not be done for the next generation born outside the U.K.

The alternative is to register the child as British under section 3(5) of the 1981 Act, if the child + parents lives in the U.K. for 3 years before age 18. Child would need a settlement visa. Registration under section 3(5) of the Act confers British citizenship otherwise than by descent.''

That seems a bit clearer. Thanks.

I've dug out my Registration Certificate, issued in 1968 by the Home Office under the British Nationality Act 1948, which confirms that I am registered as a citizen of the UK & Colonies and shows both my parents as being British. Does this qualify me as British 'otherwise than by descent'?

In any case, even if I am only British 'by descent', having lived continuously in the UK since I was 6 months old, I think I should be able to get a UK passport for my child, although I accept that, unless he/she moves to and lives in the UK, he/she will not be able to do the same for his/her children.